11 ms·

Hardware fix for Dell “AC power adapter could not be determined”

146 points by onny 6y ago

1996 6y ago
Do we really need DRM for AC power adaptors?
- nojito 6y ago
  Yes because batteries and power adapters can kill you and/or cause a fire. There was an engineer who showed how shoddy many phone chargers are and how dangerous they could be.
  - conk 6y ago
    This is addressed by product approvals and safety standards. Apple, Dell or BestBuy aren’t going to be selling knockoff chargers. If other stores are selling counterfeit products that don’t comply with approvals/standards they should face fines and criminal charges.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    So what does that have to do with DRM? That's what products liability suits are for. You sue the maker of the shoddy battery/charger. DRM can't protect you from that -- what happens when you buy the whole device from the shoddy vendor? edit: Yes, of course some of the vendors will be gone or judgment proof. So don't buy from disreputable vendors. Which brings us back to the original problem -- if the user is willing to buy from them, they could just as easily be buying an entire laptop or a toaster for their kitchen. So solve it the way you solve those instead of stamping out competition, because you need to solve those anyway. Or put it another way: If OEMs really wanted to solve this, they would stop overcharging so much for chargers and battery replacements so that people wouldn't have to play the Chinese equipment lottery to avoid paying a 1000% markup.
    - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
      The product vendor stopped existed a week after you bought it from them.
    - close04 6y ago
      > You sue You may not get the chance. Some damage is irreversible and a lawsuit will probably only bring you some legal expenses. Preventing disasters is smarter and cheaper than inviting them and then clogging up a courtroom to complain that the perfectly preventable disaster actually happened after you invited it.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      Attempting to sue the overseas manufacturer of your no-name third party AC adapter is pretty much the definition of futility.
  - foepys 6y ago
    I blame Amazon and other reckless online marketplaces for this. Why are they not required to check all products they lost to conform with local safety standards? Would you buy something from a supermarket and take even a 0.01% (or whatever) chance that it literally blows up into your face?
    - dannyw 6y ago
      Is eBay required to test every single product and sale, including the $150 used laptop that Grandma is trying to sell? I recently bought a pair of Taotronics headphones from Amazon. They are a Chinese knockoff of more premium ANC noise cancelling headphones, at a quarter of the price. The performance is incredible, and if you slapped a Bose brand on it, I could absolutely believe it's the real thing. I would like to buy more "Taotronics-like" products from "reckless" marketplaces. For example, I'm looking at NASes. The top brand names like Synology are selling ~$40 worth of components BoM for $400. That's ridiculous! Jeff Bezos is often quoted as 'Your margin is my opportunity'. As a consumer, I LOVE it.
      - foepys 6y ago
        > Is eBay required to test every single product and sale, including the $150 used laptop that Grandma is trying to sell? Private sales are different than commercial sales. I'd argue that any marketplace that allows other commercial sellers on its platform should be held accountable for anything safety and tax related their sellers do. They should take necessary precautions to verify the sellers and routinely check the products. In Germany VAT dodging by Chinese companies selling on Amazon (let Amazon deliver with FBA and just don't pay taxes afterwards) got recently regulated so that Amazon is liable and the amount of Chinese crap dropped significantly.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    USB-C is supposed to negotiate a voltage and current that are safe for both ends of the connection as well as for the cable itself. A "shoddy" charger can supply too little power, but it's not going to overcharge a battery.
    - close04 6y ago
      A shoddy charger can supply mains power to your device. Example [0]. [0] http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pr...
  - bpfrh 6y ago
    That isn't drm but certification. E.g. if the device isn't certified then you shouldn't use it, but if you still want to use it, it is your choice.
    - nojito 6y ago
      You can’t tell. Fake chargers and cables are very convincing. How could it possibly be “your choice”?
  - ken 6y ago
    Interesting hypothesis, but it doesn't explain the pattern. That's also true of a million other categories of dangerous equipment, and yet almost none of them lock out competitors by using proprietary interfaces. A shoddy saw blade could kill me, too, but I still can go buy any blade from any manufacturer and put it in any table saw, and it'll work. OTOH, there are gratuitous incompatibilities galore as soon as you get into software. Network protocols, file formats, executable formats, and so on. What could explain the situations where we see compatibility versus incompatibility? If it's obvious and visible, and Average Joe can make it fit (like with a hammer), they go ahead and make it compatible. If it's secret and internal and they can hide the differences in ways that Average Joe can't work around (like software), they feel free to make it as incompatible as possible.
- MintelIE 6y ago
  Of course not. This is just yet another excuse for a vendor to lock you in.
- zootboy 6y ago
  I'd argue it's not really DRM, it's more like device identification. Nearly all modern laptop power supplies do this in some way. HP and Lenovo ones use a resistor on the extra pin, while Dell has put a 1-wire memory chip. The main reason for this is so that different wattage power supplies can be used with the same connector. The laptop determines the power supply type to see if it can safely draw its full load. USB-C takes this one step further by having a full negotiation process before supplying any of a number of voltage / wattage levels.
  - londons_explore 6y ago
    The kinda-standard way to solve this problem is: The power supply is "constant current, constant voltage" - ie. it is 19 volts for all currents under 3 amps, but if you try to exceed 3 amps, it will supply exactly 3 amps at whatever voltage that works out to. The benefit of this scheme is it's super easy to implement on both sides, and fully universal - the device just keeps increasing the current draw till the voltage starts to drop, and it then knows it's hit the limit. The device doesn't need any kind of logic at all - a dumb light bulb will either work if there is enough power, or not work if there isn't, but nothing will get damaged. It's also compatible with Y splitters - so you can plug in two laptops to the supply, with no extra electronics, and both can share the power. (there is no guarantee of even power splitting tho!) A big benefit is the power supply can have fully variable capabilities - for example, most power supplies are thermal limited, and on a cold day it could offer slightly more current to charge your battery slightly faster - all without any digital logic, protocols, or anything manufacturer specific. Anything more complex with sense resistors, ID chips, extra wires, etc. just costs more, and provides less utility, and almost looks like a deliberate attempt to reduce compatibility and increase sales of chargers.
    - frabert 6y ago
      Unfortunately this only works if the load device is compatible with the full voltage supplied. This is not the case for USB devices, for instance.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
- cesarb 6y ago
  I'm not sure the intent of that identification chip is DRM. There are several kinds of power adapter (at least 65W and 90W, though I've been told in another comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23292819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23292819 that there's also 130W, 180W and 230W), all using the same plug; that identification chip allows the embedded controller to know how much power it is guaranteed to get from the power supply, and if it's enough to charge the battery.
  - amluto 6y ago
    It’s more than working vs not working. The power management on the laptop will presumably adjust its charging speed to avoid overloading the power supply.
- amelius 6y ago
  No, and it will probably not hold up in Europe.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    It did held up at least to some extent laptops that have bigger desktop setup high power and smaller lower power travel adapters needed additional data to identify the type of charger, some would default to lower power settings for adapters that aren’t original OEM parts, some won’t work. With USB type-c chargers it became more or less redundant although the USB type-c power spec implementation is all over the place with many cables and chargers on the market capable of ruining your devices completely. This isn’t as much of a DRM as a reliability measure if you are going to use cheap power adapters you are quite likely to be able to ruin your laptop. There are plenty of 3rd party adapters that can send the correct signal to a Dell laptop, those who can’t usually will power the system but not charge the battery simultaneously. With USB type-C many adapters would charge the laptop at 60W instead of the 100-130W that original Dell adapters can, some of the certified USB type-c docking stations/adapters would be able to charge it at full rate if they are actually capable of delivering the current required. Not everything is done because vendors want to lock you in, laptops now are smaller and power hungrier than ever and people want to charge their laptops at full rate with cables that could barely charge a phone. With USB-C things will mostly work but will work slower I can charge my MBP 15” with my Nintendo Switch power adapter it will just take longer and likely will cause the Switch adapter to die the few times I had to do it I’ve noticed the adapter cosplaying as a heating plate while charging the Mac.
anotheryou 6y ago
usb-c on the XPS just says it's less then ideal wattage (if that's the case) and still charges.
- LawnGnome 6y ago
  The USB-C laptops just use straight up USB-PD, thankfully, and don't have any DRM or other controls. I've charged my USB-C XPS 13 off an assortment of Apple, Dell, and generic chargers.
  - icelancer 6y ago
    Yeah, USB-C is the way to go from now on regarding this issue. Using proprietary chargers needs to die.
    - sp332 6y ago
      My Lenovo came with a charger rated for 135 watts. USB-PD maxes out at 100.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        They’re going to need to fix that with PD; my MBP occasionally exceeds the 100W adapter I use, causing the battery to drain.
      - Guillaume86 6y ago
        Dell has 130 watts chargers/docks over usb-c connectors, guess it's not standard PD then.
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  But then you get the nightmare that is cpu throttling, don't you? Had the same experience with a precision.
  - anotheryou 6y ago
lscotte 6y ago
It starts out being Dell then switches to HP? Something funky about that article.
- onny 6y ago
  ups thanks fixed the typo
- jotm 6y ago
  Don't know what the issue was, but HP and Dell supplies are the same, they'd be interchangeable if not for the smart charge features.
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
Proprietary technology slows us down and increases waste.
- umvi 6y ago
  But it also increases customer lock in which increases profits. Apple loves to do this.
rkagerer 6y ago
Now solder that component into an adapter that goes between your jack and your third party power supply, and I'd buy it. I don't even want to use illegit power supplies. Rather, I have a growing pile of genuine Dell ones (and jacks) that developed intermittent connections on that pin and no longer detect as authorized.
- emilfihlman 6y ago
  This could actually be done with just a tiny programmable mcu, like an AVR. Interesting proposition indeed!
- Doxin 6y ago
  At risk of kicking in an open door: have you tried using contact spray? I own a can of contact cleaner 390 by Kontakt Chemie (I'm sure other brands work similarly effectively) and that stuff is basically magic for intermittent contacts. So far I've used it to repair a buttload of wonky plugs, corroded battery contacts, as well as all the switches and volume knobs on my 40 year old amplifier. the volume knob still amazes me most. it went from an awful crackly mess to perfectly smooth and it still is perfect 5 years later. Anyways long story short: give contact spray a try. Worst case the contacts are deformed too badly and it wont work.
- jsymolon 6y ago
  I usually end up replacing the jack (female) in the laptop first due to rough handling. The plug wiggles and doesn't make a good connection.
yftsui 6y ago
Dell Laptop PSUs has this for at least 15 years. Internally it use a DS2501 to store the manufacturer, wattage, output voltage, output current, Dell SN and check sum. It is more like EDID for power supplies, it is definitely not DRM. It helps the laptop to understand how much wattage it can get from the PSU to avoid over heating, and use the output voltage to determine whether it is safe to use it to charge the battery. The content is something like `DELL 01 AC 065 195 033 {23bytes} 01`, where 01 matches the revision number on the label of the PSU, 065 means it is a 65 watts adapter, 195 means the output voltage is 19.5V, 033 means the output current is maxed at 3.3A. The {23bytes} contains the country where it is produced, the Dell part number and date codes which I don't have enough data to understand how that is coded. There was a github project which provided tools to copy and reprogram the chip, HP follows a similar protocol for its high end laptops, it is possible for a Dell laptop to use a HP PSU, if the BIOS is not implemented correctly.
- Causality1 6y ago
  Not only DRM.
  - yftsui 6y ago
    Doesn't DRM means they tried hard to stop you from clone it? Any hobbyist can get a sample chip from Maxim, clone the data from the original PSU and write it to the new chip. I agree it should be an open standard, but the implementation is really similar to EDID. As we are moving forward with USB-C power supplies, this is probably going to be irrelevant very soon.
    - Causality1 6y ago
      Yes, I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with forcing customers to buy OEM chargers for $119 a piece plus tax and shipping instead of buying a generic one for $30.
      - yftsui 6y ago
        If a company is making a "Generic" charger using a proprietary connector(only used by Dell in this case), it is their responsibility to make sure it works. Otherwise, it is a bad quality knock-off.
effnorwood 6y ago
Have you heard of eBay?
klmadfejno 6y ago
I was bit by this issue once. I was still using the original charger. The issue wasn't anything wrong with the pin, but the power port had been slightly pushed inward. Had to crack it open and solder it to the frame. I don't buy dell laptops for this exact hardware flaw.
- kls 6y ago
  I can second that, it really turned me off to Dell's I switched from a high end Dell to a Sager for this exact issue.
- mrleinad 6y ago
  Similar issue about 2 months ago. When plugging the power in, it seems I introduced the cable at an angle and the pins inside the port caused a short. Fortunately, nothing was irreparably damaged. Had to dissasemble the port, unbend the pins into their correct position, and plugged them in again. Didn't realize that was the problem until I had dissasembled the port and thoroughly checked it, so those were quite a few minutes of panic!
- ac29 6y ago
  Newer Dell laptops charge via USB-C PD, and work with any compliant charger you'd like. Actually that's not quite true - I believe they require 20V support, and like most things USB C, just because its "USB C PD" compliant, doesn't mean it supports 20V (most OEM phone chargers dont, for example).
  - cerberusss 6y ago
    What's funny is MacBooks don't require 20V. I've never tried with an iPhone charger, but I've definitely charged MacBooks overnight with a common 12W iPad charger (using one of those USB-A-to-C cables).
    - ac29 6y ago
      Yeah, I think MacBooks work fine via even via 5V chargers (albeit slowly). Would be nice if Dell followed their lead.
javiramos 6y ago
Does anyone have good recommendations for general office laptops? My company bought about 10 Dell laptops and about half of them have a problem in which they randomly shut off due to some thermal issue. Dell has given us a hard time with the problem and have replaced some of the laptops with new laptops that have had the same problem.
- bityard 6y ago
  Which Dell laptops did you buy? Dell manufactures the whole spectrum of laptop quality, from cheap Walmart garbage to high-end mobile workstations. If you buy their consumer-grade stuff, yeah, it's often junk. But their business- and professional-oriented laptops are usually decent quality. Latitude and Precision, for example. I have both of those and they've been workhorses for me. Mid-range Thinkpads would also be a fairly safe bet.
  - tails4e 6y ago
    I've a precision 5530. On paper it's a lovely machine. In practice, lots of graphics issues, docking station issues where screens flicker, etc. It's such a shame for something so costly. It's a work laptop, I'd have returned it long ago if I'd purchased it myself.
    - dijit 6y ago
      I have a 5520, so, the generation before. Specced the heavens, max memory, ECC, Xeon. I also had issues with the dock, but it was exclusively the dock, the TB16 is a flaming hunk of garbage that has no business being on my desk. The issues mostly stem from the fact that the USB controller (which powers nearly everything in the dock) is shockingly terrible. But, regardless, there are more issues because the 5520 (and probably 5530) have only 2PCIe lanes to the thunderbolt port. I was surprised to learn that "thunderbolt3" != "thunderbolt3" in all cases. I have a 5k laptop that is a buggy pile of trash because someone tried to save a dollar on a USB controller. Honestly if I could lug this thing at Michael Dells' head I would do so I'm so frustrated. But anyway, the laptop by itself is fantastic, it does get toasty under full load but I tend to disable the GPU so it's bearable. I considered getting the new WD19 thunderbolt dock before I realised about the thunderbolt PCIe lanes.
battery_cowboy 6y ago
My dell died recently and I wasn't sure why, since all the components that I could check were working. It seemed like the thing just had no power. I sent it for recycling after stripping some parts, but now I wonder if this was the issue I had. I didn't get a Dell for my replacement, so I'm happier now with a lighter, nicer computer anyways.
umvi 6y ago
Dell PSUs are the worst. My wife's XPS 13 PSU went bad after just 4 years of use. I bought a Chinese replacement for a fraction of the cost. No drm issues yet
- jansan 6y ago
  Did the cable break? I had two PSUs with a broken cable after extensive usage.
- nightfly 6y ago
  4 years isn't a bad lifetime for a laptop PSU. I know I kill the cables on mine way before the 4 year mark.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    The PSU itself is supposed to last way longer though... Never had a laptop PSU die on me until the laptop actually dies first for unrelated reasons.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    One of the underrated facts of USB-PD; replaceable cables. No need to replace the brick if the insulation frays.
  - rconti 6y ago
    I don't get what people are doing to break PSUs or cables. I've never fried a laptop PSU nor destroyed a cable in, whatever, 2 decades of laptops? I am willing to accept that cables can get damaged, but I don't think a PSU outright failing is something we should accept as "normal". Unlike cables, their longevity shouldn't be related to physical handling.
glitchc 6y ago
Wait... won't it still think every adapter is 90W, even if you plug in a 65W adapter?
- isatty 6y ago
  There is a disclaimer that mentions this.

146 points by onny 6y ago

1996 6y ago

Do we really need DRM for AC power adaptors?

nojito 6y ago
Yes because batteries and power adapters can kill you and/or cause a fire. There was an engineer who showed how shoddy many phone chargers are and how dangerous they could be.
- conk 6y ago
  This is addressed by product approvals and safety standards. Apple, Dell or BestBuy aren’t going to be selling knockoff chargers. If other stores are selling counterfeit products that don’t comply with approvals/standards they should face fines and criminal charges.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  So what does that have to do with DRM? That's what products liability suits are for. You sue the maker of the shoddy battery/charger. DRM can't protect you from that -- what happens when you buy the whole device from the shoddy vendor? edit: Yes, of course some of the vendors will be gone or judgment proof. So don't buy from disreputable vendors. Which brings us back to the original problem -- if the user is willing to buy from them, they could just as easily be buying an entire laptop or a toaster for their kitchen. So solve it the way you solve those instead of stamping out competition, because you need to solve those anyway. Or put it another way: If OEMs really wanted to solve this, they would stop overcharging so much for chargers and battery replacements so that people wouldn't have to play the Chinese equipment lottery to avoid paying a 1000% markup.
  - NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    The product vendor stopped existed a week after you bought it from them.
  - close04 6y ago
    > You sue You may not get the chance. Some damage is irreversible and a lawsuit will probably only bring you some legal expenses. Preventing disasters is smarter and cheaper than inviting them and then clogging up a courtroom to complain that the perfectly preventable disaster actually happened after you invited it.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    Attempting to sue the overseas manufacturer of your no-name third party AC adapter is pretty much the definition of futility.
- foepys 6y ago
  I blame Amazon and other reckless online marketplaces for this. Why are they not required to check all products they lost to conform with local safety standards? Would you buy something from a supermarket and take even a 0.01% (or whatever) chance that it literally blows up into your face?
  - dannyw 6y ago
    Is eBay required to test every single product and sale, including the $150 used laptop that Grandma is trying to sell? I recently bought a pair of Taotronics headphones from Amazon. They are a Chinese knockoff of more premium ANC noise cancelling headphones, at a quarter of the price. The performance is incredible, and if you slapped a Bose brand on it, I could absolutely believe it's the real thing. I would like to buy more "Taotronics-like" products from "reckless" marketplaces. For example, I'm looking at NASes. The top brand names like Synology are selling ~$40 worth of components BoM for $400. That's ridiculous! Jeff Bezos is often quoted as 'Your margin is my opportunity'. As a consumer, I LOVE it.
    - foepys 6y ago
      > Is eBay required to test every single product and sale, including the $150 used laptop that Grandma is trying to sell? Private sales are different than commercial sales. I'd argue that any marketplace that allows other commercial sellers on its platform should be held accountable for anything safety and tax related their sellers do. They should take necessary precautions to verify the sellers and routinely check the products. In Germany VAT dodging by Chinese companies selling on Amazon (let Amazon deliver with FBA and just don't pay taxes afterwards) got recently regulated so that Amazon is liable and the amount of Chinese crap dropped significantly.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  USB-C is supposed to negotiate a voltage and current that are safe for both ends of the connection as well as for the cable itself. A "shoddy" charger can supply too little power, but it's not going to overcharge a battery.
  - close04 6y ago
    A shoddy charger can supply mains power to your device. Example [0]. [0] http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pr...
- bpfrh 6y ago
  That isn't drm but certification. E.g. if the device isn't certified then you shouldn't use it, but if you still want to use it, it is your choice.
  - nojito 6y ago
    You can’t tell. Fake chargers and cables are very convincing. How could it possibly be “your choice”?
- ken 6y ago
  Interesting hypothesis, but it doesn't explain the pattern. That's also true of a million other categories of dangerous equipment, and yet almost none of them lock out competitors by using proprietary interfaces. A shoddy saw blade could kill me, too, but I still can go buy any blade from any manufacturer and put it in any table saw, and it'll work. OTOH, there are gratuitous incompatibilities galore as soon as you get into software. Network protocols, file formats, executable formats, and so on. What could explain the situations where we see compatibility versus incompatibility? If it's obvious and visible, and Average Joe can make it fit (like with a hammer), they go ahead and make it compatible. If it's secret and internal and they can hide the differences in ways that Average Joe can't work around (like software), they feel free to make it as incompatible as possible.
MintelIE 6y ago
Of course not. This is just yet another excuse for a vendor to lock you in.
zootboy 6y ago
I'd argue it's not really DRM, it's more like device identification. Nearly all modern laptop power supplies do this in some way. HP and Lenovo ones use a resistor on the extra pin, while Dell has put a 1-wire memory chip. The main reason for this is so that different wattage power supplies can be used with the same connector. The laptop determines the power supply type to see if it can safely draw its full load. USB-C takes this one step further by having a full negotiation process before supplying any of a number of voltage / wattage levels.
- londons_explore 6y ago
  The kinda-standard way to solve this problem is: The power supply is "constant current, constant voltage" - ie. it is 19 volts for all currents under 3 amps, but if you try to exceed 3 amps, it will supply exactly 3 amps at whatever voltage that works out to. The benefit of this scheme is it's super easy to implement on both sides, and fully universal - the device just keeps increasing the current draw till the voltage starts to drop, and it then knows it's hit the limit. The device doesn't need any kind of logic at all - a dumb light bulb will either work if there is enough power, or not work if there isn't, but nothing will get damaged. It's also compatible with Y splitters - so you can plug in two laptops to the supply, with no extra electronics, and both can share the power. (there is no guarantee of even power splitting tho!) A big benefit is the power supply can have fully variable capabilities - for example, most power supplies are thermal limited, and on a cold day it could offer slightly more current to charge your battery slightly faster - all without any digital logic, protocols, or anything manufacturer specific. Anything more complex with sense resistors, ID chips, extra wires, etc. just costs more, and provides less utility, and almost looks like a deliberate attempt to reduce compatibility and increase sales of chargers.
  - frabert 6y ago
    Unfortunately this only works if the load device is compatible with the full voltage supplied. This is not the case for USB devices, for instance.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
cesarb 6y ago
I'm not sure the intent of that identification chip is DRM. There are several kinds of power adapter (at least 65W and 90W, though I've been told in another comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23292819 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23292819 that there's also 130W, 180W and 230W), all using the same plug; that identification chip allows the embedded controller to know how much power it is guaranteed to get from the power supply, and if it's enough to charge the battery.
- amluto 6y ago
  It’s more than working vs not working. The power management on the laptop will presumably adjust its charging speed to avoid overloading the power supply.
amelius 6y ago
No, and it will probably not hold up in Europe.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  It did held up at least to some extent laptops that have bigger desktop setup high power and smaller lower power travel adapters needed additional data to identify the type of charger, some would default to lower power settings for adapters that aren’t original OEM parts, some won’t work. With USB type-c chargers it became more or less redundant although the USB type-c power spec implementation is all over the place with many cables and chargers on the market capable of ruining your devices completely. This isn’t as much of a DRM as a reliability measure if you are going to use cheap power adapters you are quite likely to be able to ruin your laptop. There are plenty of 3rd party adapters that can send the correct signal to a Dell laptop, those who can’t usually will power the system but not charge the battery simultaneously. With USB type-C many adapters would charge the laptop at 60W instead of the 100-130W that original Dell adapters can, some of the certified USB type-c docking stations/adapters would be able to charge it at full rate if they are actually capable of delivering the current required. Not everything is done because vendors want to lock you in, laptops now are smaller and power hungrier than ever and people want to charge their laptops at full rate with cables that could barely charge a phone. With USB-C things will mostly work but will work slower I can charge my MBP 15” with my Nintendo Switch power adapter it will just take longer and likely will cause the Switch adapter to die the few times I had to do it I’ve noticed the adapter cosplaying as a heating plate while charging the Mac.

anotheryou 6y ago

usb-c on the XPS just says it's less then ideal wattage (if that's the case) and still charges.

LawnGnome 6y ago
The USB-C laptops just use straight up USB-PD, thankfully, and don't have any DRM or other controls. I've charged my USB-C XPS 13 off an assortment of Apple, Dell, and generic chargers.
- icelancer 6y ago
  Yeah, USB-C is the way to go from now on regarding this issue. Using proprietary chargers needs to die.
  - sp332 6y ago
    My Lenovo came with a charger rated for 135 watts. USB-PD maxes out at 100.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      They’re going to need to fix that with PD; my MBP occasionally exceeds the 100W adapter I use, causing the battery to drain.
    - Guillaume86 6y ago
      Dell has 130 watts chargers/docks over usb-c connectors, guess it's not standard PD then.
pietrovismara 6y ago
But then you get the nightmare that is cpu throttling, don't you? Had the same experience with a precision.
- anotheryou 6y ago

lscotte 6y ago

It starts out being Dell then switches to HP? Something funky about that article.

onny 6y ago
ups thanks fixed the typo
jotm 6y ago
Don't know what the issue was, but HP and Dell supplies are the same, they'd be interchangeable if not for the smart charge features.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

Proprietary technology slows us down and increases waste.

umvi 6y ago
But it also increases customer lock in which increases profits. Apple loves to do this.

rkagerer 6y ago

Now solder that component into an adapter that goes between your jack and your third party power supply, and I'd buy it. I don't even want to use illegit power supplies. Rather, I have a growing pile of genuine Dell ones (and jacks) that developed intermittent connections on that pin and no longer detect as authorized.

emilfihlman 6y ago
This could actually be done with just a tiny programmable mcu, like an AVR. Interesting proposition indeed!
Doxin 6y ago
At risk of kicking in an open door: have you tried using contact spray? I own a can of contact cleaner 390 by Kontakt Chemie (I'm sure other brands work similarly effectively) and that stuff is basically magic for intermittent contacts. So far I've used it to repair a buttload of wonky plugs, corroded battery contacts, as well as all the switches and volume knobs on my 40 year old amplifier. the volume knob still amazes me most. it went from an awful crackly mess to perfectly smooth and it still is perfect 5 years later. Anyways long story short: give contact spray a try. Worst case the contacts are deformed too badly and it wont work.
jsymolon 6y ago
I usually end up replacing the jack (female) in the laptop first due to rough handling. The plug wiggles and doesn't make a good connection.

yftsui 6y ago

Dell Laptop PSUs has this for at least 15 years. Internally it use a DS2501 to store the manufacturer, wattage, output voltage, output current, Dell SN and check sum. It is more like EDID for power supplies, it is definitely not DRM. It helps the laptop to understand how much wattage it can get from the PSU to avoid over heating, and use the output voltage to determine whether it is safe to use it to charge the battery. The content is something like `DELL 01 AC 065 195 033 {23bytes} 01`, where 01 matches the revision number on the label of the PSU, 065 means it is a 65 watts adapter, 195 means the output voltage is 19.5V, 033 means the output current is maxed at 3.3A. The {23bytes} contains the country where it is produced, the Dell part number and date codes which I don't have enough data to understand how that is coded. There was a github project which provided tools to copy and reprogram the chip, HP follows a similar protocol for its high end laptops, it is possible for a Dell laptop to use a HP PSU, if the BIOS is not implemented correctly.

Causality1 6y ago
Not only DRM.
- yftsui 6y ago
  Doesn't DRM means they tried hard to stop you from clone it? Any hobbyist can get a sample chip from Maxim, clone the data from the original PSU and write it to the new chip. I agree it should be an open standard, but the implementation is really similar to EDID. As we are moving forward with USB-C power supplies, this is probably going to be irrelevant very soon.
  - Causality1 6y ago
    Yes, I'm sure it has nothing at all to do with forcing customers to buy OEM chargers for $119 a piece plus tax and shipping instead of buying a generic one for $30.
    - yftsui 6y ago
      If a company is making a "Generic" charger using a proprietary connector(only used by Dell in this case), it is their responsibility to make sure it works. Otherwise, it is a bad quality knock-off.

effnorwood 6y ago

Have you heard of eBay?

klmadfejno 6y ago

I was bit by this issue once. I was still using the original charger. The issue wasn't anything wrong with the pin, but the power port had been slightly pushed inward. Had to crack it open and solder it to the frame. I don't buy dell laptops for this exact hardware flaw.

kls 6y ago
I can second that, it really turned me off to Dell's I switched from a high end Dell to a Sager for this exact issue.
mrleinad 6y ago
Similar issue about 2 months ago. When plugging the power in, it seems I introduced the cable at an angle and the pins inside the port caused a short. Fortunately, nothing was irreparably damaged. Had to dissasemble the port, unbend the pins into their correct position, and plugged them in again. Didn't realize that was the problem until I had dissasembled the port and thoroughly checked it, so those were quite a few minutes of panic!
ac29 6y ago
Newer Dell laptops charge via USB-C PD, and work with any compliant charger you'd like. Actually that's not quite true - I believe they require 20V support, and like most things USB C, just because its "USB C PD" compliant, doesn't mean it supports 20V (most OEM phone chargers dont, for example).
- cerberusss 6y ago
  What's funny is MacBooks don't require 20V. I've never tried with an iPhone charger, but I've definitely charged MacBooks overnight with a common 12W iPad charger (using one of those USB-A-to-C cables).
  - ac29 6y ago
    Yeah, I think MacBooks work fine via even via 5V chargers (albeit slowly). Would be nice if Dell followed their lead.

javiramos 6y ago

Does anyone have good recommendations for general office laptops? My company bought about 10 Dell laptops and about half of them have a problem in which they randomly shut off due to some thermal issue. Dell has given us a hard time with the problem and have replaced some of the laptops with new laptops that have had the same problem.

bityard 6y ago
Which Dell laptops did you buy? Dell manufactures the whole spectrum of laptop quality, from cheap Walmart garbage to high-end mobile workstations. If you buy their consumer-grade stuff, yeah, it's often junk. But their business- and professional-oriented laptops are usually decent quality. Latitude and Precision, for example. I have both of those and they've been workhorses for me. Mid-range Thinkpads would also be a fairly safe bet.
- tails4e 6y ago
  I've a precision 5530. On paper it's a lovely machine. In practice, lots of graphics issues, docking station issues where screens flicker, etc. It's such a shame for something so costly. It's a work laptop, I'd have returned it long ago if I'd purchased it myself.
  - dijit 6y ago
    I have a 5520, so, the generation before. Specced the heavens, max memory, ECC, Xeon. I also had issues with the dock, but it was exclusively the dock, the TB16 is a flaming hunk of garbage that has no business being on my desk. The issues mostly stem from the fact that the USB controller (which powers nearly everything in the dock) is shockingly terrible. But, regardless, there are more issues because the 5520 (and probably 5530) have only 2PCIe lanes to the thunderbolt port. I was surprised to learn that "thunderbolt3" != "thunderbolt3" in all cases. I have a 5k laptop that is a buggy pile of trash because someone tried to save a dollar on a USB controller. Honestly if I could lug this thing at Michael Dells' head I would do so I'm so frustrated. But anyway, the laptop by itself is fantastic, it does get toasty under full load but I tend to disable the GPU so it's bearable. I considered getting the new WD19 thunderbolt dock before I realised about the thunderbolt PCIe lanes.

battery_cowboy 6y ago

My dell died recently and I wasn't sure why, since all the components that I could check were working. It seemed like the thing just had no power. I sent it for recycling after stripping some parts, but now I wonder if this was the issue I had. I didn't get a Dell for my replacement, so I'm happier now with a lighter, nicer computer anyways.

umvi 6y ago

Dell PSUs are the worst. My wife's XPS 13 PSU went bad after just 4 years of use. I bought a Chinese replacement for a fraction of the cost. No drm issues yet

jansan 6y ago
Did the cable break? I had two PSUs with a broken cable after extensive usage.
nightfly 6y ago
4 years isn't a bad lifetime for a laptop PSU. I know I kill the cables on mine way before the 4 year mark.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  The PSU itself is supposed to last way longer though... Never had a laptop PSU die on me until the laptop actually dies first for unrelated reasons.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  One of the underrated facts of USB-PD; replaceable cables. No need to replace the brick if the insulation frays.
- rconti 6y ago
  I don't get what people are doing to break PSUs or cables. I've never fried a laptop PSU nor destroyed a cable in, whatever, 2 decades of laptops? I am willing to accept that cables can get damaged, but I don't think a PSU outright failing is something we should accept as "normal". Unlike cables, their longevity shouldn't be related to physical handling.

glitchc 6y ago

Wait... won't it still think every adapter is 90W, even if you plug in a 65W adapter?

isatty 6y ago
There is a disclaimer that mentions this.