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> But there is also a very practical reason Rogan can say whatever he thinks: He is an individual and not an organization. Eric Weinstein, another podcaster and

> But there is also a very practical reason Rogan can say whatever he thinks: He is an individual and not an organization. Eric Weinstein, another podcaster and a friend of Rogan, told me, “It’s the same reason that a contractor can wear a MAGA hat on a job and an employee inside Facebook headquarters cannot: There is no HR department at ‘The Joe Rogan Experience’.” I think that might be the takeaway for me: modern companies have over-optimized for political correctness. I wish more companies would be honest about their politics and that of their employees.

Invictus0 6y ago
Why would a company actively alienate half of their customers by publicly aligning with one party or the other, when they can just donate quietly with the same effect? I have friends that still don't eat at Chick-Fil-A after the CEO political donations scandal.
jeromegv 6y ago
A MAGA hat is just another way of saying by "Mexicans are rapist", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. I totally understand why an organization, that employs a very diverse workforce, wouldn't want this kind of opinion being expressed. I wish that people that advocated for less political correctness would actually list the opinions that they would want to see expressed publicly. What is specifically something that you wish was being said in public discourse that is not allowed now?
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Well, for example, it'd be nice if people were allowed to say "make America great again". It seems like a serious problem if such a vague, generic statement is interpreted as a coded message about Mexicans.
  - RandomTisk 6y ago
    Most isolated people on the left still believe Trump was referring to nazi's/white nationalists as "good people" when he made that "good people on both sides" comment. If they would just step out of their bubble for one moment they would realize they've been lied to. NYT articles like this are IMO designed to keep people from wanting to leave the bubble.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      That aspect I care much less about. Believing the worst about politicians you don't like isn't political correctness, just... politics.
    - myko 6y ago
      No, folks on the left were pointing out, correctly, that calling folks who willingly marched with nazis who were chanting "blood and soil" good people was a serious dog whistle to rightwing extremism.
      - RandomTisk 6y ago
        Except he didn't. He specifically condemned them. Some journalist took part of his statement, cut off the rest and riled up a bunch of people over a false narrative. I still see someone in the media who should know better by now repeat this lie on occasion.
        myko 6y ago
        Saying you condemn the nazis while absolving the folks who marched with them _is_ a dog whistle to rightwing extremism. That's the entire point. If they were good people they would've called the nazis out and kicked them out of their march, or refused to march with them. Instead they marched with the nazis.
        hanifc 6y ago
        It's pretty surreal to have just finished reading the blog post[1] on this topic, that was posted just a little bit higher, then to come here and see it played out. [1]https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-hoax-funnel/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-ho...
  - oblio 6y ago
    I'm not even American, but to give a counter example, Black Lives Matter is also a pretty benign sounding expression that received a lot of vitriol. And even common words can get very negative associations over time. Sometimes language has to change because of that. It's a pity, especially if you like the specific term, but that's life.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      > Black Lives Matter is also a pretty benign sounding expression that received a lot of vitriol. Because on both sides of the barricade, there are partisans that interpret everything as dog whistling. Whether it is "Black Lives Matter" or "It's OK to be white", same thing.
      - alabaster_punt 6y ago
        Are you suggesting "It's OK to be white" isn't a dogwhistle?
        vetinari 6y ago
        If you see any difference between those two, I suggest you read mistermann's comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23301679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23301679 and think about it really hard. If you are willing to confront your bias, that is.
        alabaster_punt 6y ago
        One of them was a reaction to a well-evidenced trend of excessive police force against black people. The other one is literally a neo-nazi dog whistle intended to promote the theory that there is a conspiracy against white people in western society and draw well meaning white people into nazi ideology. I'm not biased on this point, I simply know the facts. I suggest you read the ADL's coverage of it, and similarly "think really hard". https://www.adl.org/blog/from-4chan-another-trolling-campaign-emerges https://www.adl.org/blog/from-4chan-another-trolling-campaig...
  - bjourne 6y ago
    Try wearing a shirt that says "Power to the people" to your work and see how that works out for you.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      ...pretty well? I don't know if we work in different areas or what, but in my experience tech companies are very accepting of non-Trump-aligned political expression. I've seen people wear communist slogans to work before and they've never gotten in trouble for it.
      - bjourne 6y ago
        That appears to be false. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-protests-union-organizing-cracking-down-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-pr... Unless you mean that union organizing is Trump-aligned political expression. I also wonder what the "communist slogan" was that you saw? In all places I've worked at wearing a shirt like that would be taboo.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Why would it be nice?
- AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
  That MAGA hat does not mean saying what you said? The opinions are there, you just chose to not see them.
- mistermann 6y ago
  > I wish that people that advocated for less political correctness would actually list the opinions that they would want to see expressed publicly. I suspect a big part of the reason people don't bother is because it's an exercise in futility - they could do it, but it is a fair amount of work to list out a decent set of topics that should be discussed, along with reasoning for why, but then the person who asked for it, who likely truly believes they are doing so with complete sincerity and an open mind, isn't likely to actually consider them anyways. For example, I could ask you to "unpack" this statement: > A MAGA hat is(!) just another way of saying "Mexicans are rapists", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. Such a seemingly simple "truth", provided one is unaware of (or "ignores", in real time conversational discussion and thinking) the incredibly complex neurological processes (and the model they are based on, and the lineage of the data in that model) that occur within the subconscious human mind, before completely transparently popping simple answers and "truths" up to the conscious process, often accompanied by some(!) data to quickly form a "good enough" post-hoc-rationalized explanation for the "logic" (it isn't - subconscious heuristics don't run on logic) upon which the "truth" (heuristic prediction) is based. To test whether this theory may have some validity, you could try to unpack your statement into a purely logic/reason based statement that ~proves that it is ~true. I predict (we shall see if my prediction is correct, based on your response, or lack of response) that not only will you not be able/willing to do it, but if you did, before too long you would realize that many of the supporting perceived to be first-principle "facts" you'd instinctually want to use in your proof, have a bit of a magical quality to them...like, you know that they are true, but if you sit down and really examine them, you'll find that they aren't actually true (always true, with no exceptions), and also that you don't really know where they came from, or how they got into your mind (and tagged as facts) in the first place. I suspect you'd have no problem "seeing" how this approach could work on people who hold racist and similar beliefs, but in my experience there is a significantly lower likelihood of you being able to see the effectiveness of this technique if the shoe is on the other foot...if instead it is your mind's attention and considerable processing power, being pointed at itself. It seems like there is some unseen process that disallows actions like this (which is a rather fun and interesting philosophical question to ponder: assuming there is such a guarding process, what is the nature of it, and where did it come from).
- mam2 6y ago
  > A MAGA hat is just another way of saying by "Mexicans are rapist", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. That's not at all what people wearing MAGA hats want to represent, and the fact you can't understand that is exactly the problem you guys have in the USA and why Trump will probably be reelected
- jeffdavis 6y ago
  The whole point of political correctness is that there are a set of opinions that are unpopular enough that it's OK to inflict social isolation (or sometimes worse) on those who express them. Even if those opinions are really horrible opinions, political correctness is still bad, because social isolation just makes the problem worse. Sure, you can't engage every crazy idea with a detailed rebuttal. But it's much more effective to befriend or relate to the person on other points, develop mutual respect, and through osmosis you will both understand each other a bit more, and each temper your views. This is how families work. Hopefully you don't (hypothetically) hate your aunt because she occasionally says something that sounds racist. Maybe she has done many wonderful things in her life, and so you just kind of accept it as part of the complexity being human. You don't have to believe the statements are good, but you also don't have to obsess on them to the point of defining her by the statements. The other reason political correctness is bad is because the rules are arbitrary enough, and the punishments are arbitrary enough, that you are never quite sure when they are going to turn against you. For a while it was politically incorrect to say "black", but now that's normal again and "African-American" is a bit more awkward[1]. There was no grand vote or decree to change it... it just changed like a fashion. I honestly don't see how someone who travels at all could be one of the enforcers of political correctness. People in other countries say politically-incorrect (in the American sense) stuff all the time unless they have been trained otherwise. [1] The median black family here has a lot more history in America than the median white family, so it seems a bit insulting to add a qualifier before "American".
- born_a_skeptic 6y ago
  Please stop spreading lies. He never said Mexicans are rapist. He said: "When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best," Trump said. "They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
  - rumanator 6y ago
    >>They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." So your point is that instead he stated that the Mexicans that are arriving next to you are bringing drugs, crime, and are rapists. Ah but among all the criminal rapists selling drugs... some might be good people. Got it.
    - born_a_skeptic 6y ago
      Seriously, have you watched the speech? I'm guessing you haven't, so here is a little more context around what he said. He wasn't just referring to Mexicans, he was talking about immigrants in general crossing over the Mexican border. DONALD TRUMP: When do we beat Mexico at the border? They’re laughing at us, at our stupidity. And now they are beating us economically. They are not our friend, believe me. But they’re killing us economically. The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems. Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably— probably— from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  MAGA = "Mexicans are rapists"? Does someone saying "MAGA" also equate to them saying "The Fed should lower interest rates", just because Trump said that one time? You have to be careful to differentiate an association made by political opponents of "MAGA".
enumjorge 6y ago
I thought “keep religion and politics out of the workplace” was advice that had been in place for a while? Not sure that staying away from sensitive political discussion while at work is a modern trend.
- im3w1l 6y ago
  It's not that long ago that a significant fraction of people worked on farms and did what they wanted. It's not that long ago that workers discussed so much politics that they got together and had shootouts with their employers.
  - oblio 6y ago
    > It's not that long ago that a significant fraction of people worked on farms and did what they wanted. Up until 1860 or so, most people across the world were working on farms. And most of those people were at best sharecroppers, if not serfs or slaves. Something tells me there wasn't a lot of freedom going around :-)
- throwaway_43634 6y ago
  >“keep religion and politics out of the workplace” was advice that had been in place for a while Sure, but said Facebook employee has a greater chance of having action taken against him for wearing a MAGA cap than for wearing an Antifa shirt. Of course Facebook have all rights to do so since they're a private corporation but that sort of thing is what GP was talking about.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    Sure, and I'll probably get into greater trouble at the lunchroom of a conservative law firm if I read the Communist Manifesto rather than Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom, and I probably shouldn't whip out one of Dawkins books at a church gathering. What has always confused me about this discussion about say, a left leaning bent at Facebook or whatever is that this has always been the norm in virtually every conservative place, which is like 90% of provincial small towns, from which all the liberal and creative people have to run away in the first place.
foob4r 6y ago
Since when is thinking about others you work with called "political correctness"? I go to work to do my job and get a paycheck, ideally without drama. I don't give a day's ass about your MAGA hat.

Invictus0 6y ago

Why would a company actively alienate half of their customers by publicly aligning with one party or the other, when they can just donate quietly with the same effect? I have friends that still don't eat at Chick-Fil-A after the CEO political donations scandal.

jeromegv 6y ago

A MAGA hat is just another way of saying by "Mexicans are rapist", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. I totally understand why an organization, that employs a very diverse workforce, wouldn't want this kind of opinion being expressed. I wish that people that advocated for less political correctness would actually list the opinions that they would want to see expressed publicly. What is specifically something that you wish was being said in public discourse that is not allowed now?

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Well, for example, it'd be nice if people were allowed to say "make America great again". It seems like a serious problem if such a vague, generic statement is interpreted as a coded message about Mexicans.
- RandomTisk 6y ago
  Most isolated people on the left still believe Trump was referring to nazi's/white nationalists as "good people" when he made that "good people on both sides" comment. If they would just step out of their bubble for one moment they would realize they've been lied to. NYT articles like this are IMO designed to keep people from wanting to leave the bubble.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    That aspect I care much less about. Believing the worst about politicians you don't like isn't political correctness, just... politics.
  - myko 6y ago
    No, folks on the left were pointing out, correctly, that calling folks who willingly marched with nazis who were chanting "blood and soil" good people was a serious dog whistle to rightwing extremism.
    - RandomTisk 6y ago
      Except he didn't. He specifically condemned them. Some journalist took part of his statement, cut off the rest and riled up a bunch of people over a false narrative. I still see someone in the media who should know better by now repeat this lie on occasion.
      - myko 6y ago
        Saying you condemn the nazis while absolving the folks who marched with them _is_ a dog whistle to rightwing extremism. That's the entire point. If they were good people they would've called the nazis out and kicked them out of their march, or refused to march with them. Instead they marched with the nazis.
        hanifc 6y ago
        It's pretty surreal to have just finished reading the blog post[1] on this topic, that was posted just a little bit higher, then to come here and see it played out. [1]https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-hoax-funnel/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2019/04/30/the-fine-people-ho...
- oblio 6y ago
  I'm not even American, but to give a counter example, Black Lives Matter is also a pretty benign sounding expression that received a lot of vitriol. And even common words can get very negative associations over time. Sometimes language has to change because of that. It's a pity, especially if you like the specific term, but that's life.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    > Black Lives Matter is also a pretty benign sounding expression that received a lot of vitriol. Because on both sides of the barricade, there are partisans that interpret everything as dog whistling. Whether it is "Black Lives Matter" or "It's OK to be white", same thing.
    - alabaster_punt 6y ago
      Are you suggesting "It's OK to be white" isn't a dogwhistle?
      - vetinari 6y ago
        If you see any difference between those two, I suggest you read mistermann's comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23301679 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23301679 and think about it really hard. If you are willing to confront your bias, that is.
        alabaster_punt 6y ago
        One of them was a reaction to a well-evidenced trend of excessive police force against black people. The other one is literally a neo-nazi dog whistle intended to promote the theory that there is a conspiracy against white people in western society and draw well meaning white people into nazi ideology. I'm not biased on this point, I simply know the facts. I suggest you read the ADL's coverage of it, and similarly "think really hard". https://www.adl.org/blog/from-4chan-another-trolling-campaign-emerges https://www.adl.org/blog/from-4chan-another-trolling-campaig...
- bjourne 6y ago
  Try wearing a shirt that says "Power to the people" to your work and see how that works out for you.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    ...pretty well? I don't know if we work in different areas or what, but in my experience tech companies are very accepting of non-Trump-aligned political expression. I've seen people wear communist slogans to work before and they've never gotten in trouble for it.
    - bjourne 6y ago
      That appears to be false. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-protests-union-organizing-cracking-down-workers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/may/05/amazon-pr... Unless you mean that union organizing is Trump-aligned political expression. I also wonder what the "communist slogan" was that you saw? In all places I've worked at wearing a shirt like that would be taboo.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- KirinDave 6y ago
  Why would it be nice?
AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
That MAGA hat does not mean saying what you said? The opinions are there, you just chose to not see them.
mistermann 6y ago
> I wish that people that advocated for less political correctness would actually list the opinions that they would want to see expressed publicly. I suspect a big part of the reason people don't bother is because it's an exercise in futility - they could do it, but it is a fair amount of work to list out a decent set of topics that should be discussed, along with reasoning for why, but then the person who asked for it, who likely truly believes they are doing so with complete sincerity and an open mind, isn't likely to actually consider them anyways. For example, I could ask you to "unpack" this statement: > A MAGA hat is(!) just another way of saying "Mexicans are rapists", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. Such a seemingly simple "truth", provided one is unaware of (or "ignores", in real time conversational discussion and thinking) the incredibly complex neurological processes (and the model they are based on, and the lineage of the data in that model) that occur within the subconscious human mind, before completely transparently popping simple answers and "truths" up to the conscious process, often accompanied by some(!) data to quickly form a "good enough" post-hoc-rationalized explanation for the "logic" (it isn't - subconscious heuristics don't run on logic) upon which the "truth" (heuristic prediction) is based. To test whether this theory may have some validity, you could try to unpack your statement into a purely logic/reason based statement that ~proves that it is ~true. I predict (we shall see if my prediction is correct, based on your response, or lack of response) that not only will you not be able/willing to do it, but if you did, before too long you would realize that many of the supporting perceived to be first-principle "facts" you'd instinctually want to use in your proof, have a bit of a magical quality to them...like, you know that they are true, but if you sit down and really examine them, you'll find that they aren't actually true (always true, with no exceptions), and also that you don't really know where they came from, or how they got into your mind (and tagged as facts) in the first place. I suspect you'd have no problem "seeing" how this approach could work on people who hold racist and similar beliefs, but in my experience there is a significantly lower likelihood of you being able to see the effectiveness of this technique if the shoe is on the other foot...if instead it is your mind's attention and considerable processing power, being pointed at itself. It seems like there is some unseen process that disallows actions like this (which is a rather fun and interesting philosophical question to ponder: assuming there is such a guarding process, what is the nature of it, and where did it come from).
mam2 6y ago
> A MAGA hat is just another way of saying by "Mexicans are rapist", which was part of the whole MAGA launch. That's not at all what people wearing MAGA hats want to represent, and the fact you can't understand that is exactly the problem you guys have in the USA and why Trump will probably be reelected
jeffdavis 6y ago
The whole point of political correctness is that there are a set of opinions that are unpopular enough that it's OK to inflict social isolation (or sometimes worse) on those who express them. Even if those opinions are really horrible opinions, political correctness is still bad, because social isolation just makes the problem worse. Sure, you can't engage every crazy idea with a detailed rebuttal. But it's much more effective to befriend or relate to the person on other points, develop mutual respect, and through osmosis you will both understand each other a bit more, and each temper your views. This is how families work. Hopefully you don't (hypothetically) hate your aunt because she occasionally says something that sounds racist. Maybe she has done many wonderful things in her life, and so you just kind of accept it as part of the complexity being human. You don't have to believe the statements are good, but you also don't have to obsess on them to the point of defining her by the statements. The other reason political correctness is bad is because the rules are arbitrary enough, and the punishments are arbitrary enough, that you are never quite sure when they are going to turn against you. For a while it was politically incorrect to say "black", but now that's normal again and "African-American" is a bit more awkward[1]. There was no grand vote or decree to change it... it just changed like a fashion. I honestly don't see how someone who travels at all could be one of the enforcers of political correctness. People in other countries say politically-incorrect (in the American sense) stuff all the time unless they have been trained otherwise. [1] The median black family here has a lot more history in America than the median white family, so it seems a bit insulting to add a qualifier before "American".
born_a_skeptic 6y ago
Please stop spreading lies. He never said Mexicans are rapist. He said: "When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best," Trump said. "They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
- rumanator 6y ago
  >>They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people." So your point is that instead he stated that the Mexicans that are arriving next to you are bringing drugs, crime, and are rapists. Ah but among all the criminal rapists selling drugs... some might be good people. Got it.
  - born_a_skeptic 6y ago
    Seriously, have you watched the speech? I'm guessing you haven't, so here is a little more context around what he said. He wasn't just referring to Mexicans, he was talking about immigrants in general crossing over the Mexican border. DONALD TRUMP: When do we beat Mexico at the border? They’re laughing at us, at our stupidity. And now they are beating us economically. They are not our friend, believe me. But they’re killing us economically. The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems. Thank you. It’s true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people. But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting. And it only makes common sense. It only makes common sense. They’re sending us not the right people. It’s coming from more than Mexico. It’s coming from all over South and Latin America, and it’s coming probably— probably— from the Middle East. But we don’t know. Because we have no protection and we have no competence, we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s got to stop and it’s got to stop fast.
koheripbal 6y ago
MAGA = "Mexicans are rapists"? Does someone saying "MAGA" also equate to them saying "The Fed should lower interest rates", just because Trump said that one time? You have to be careful to differentiate an association made by political opponents of "MAGA".

enumjorge 6y ago

I thought “keep religion and politics out of the workplace” was advice that had been in place for a while? Not sure that staying away from sensitive political discussion while at work is a modern trend.

im3w1l 6y ago
It's not that long ago that a significant fraction of people worked on farms and did what they wanted. It's not that long ago that workers discussed so much politics that they got together and had shootouts with their employers.
- oblio 6y ago
  > It's not that long ago that a significant fraction of people worked on farms and did what they wanted. Up until 1860 or so, most people across the world were working on farms. And most of those people were at best sharecroppers, if not serfs or slaves. Something tells me there wasn't a lot of freedom going around :-)
throwaway_43634 6y ago
>“keep religion and politics out of the workplace” was advice that had been in place for a while Sure, but said Facebook employee has a greater chance of having action taken against him for wearing a MAGA cap than for wearing an Antifa shirt. Of course Facebook have all rights to do so since they're a private corporation but that sort of thing is what GP was talking about.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  Sure, and I'll probably get into greater trouble at the lunchroom of a conservative law firm if I read the Communist Manifesto rather than Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom, and I probably shouldn't whip out one of Dawkins books at a church gathering. What has always confused me about this discussion about say, a left leaning bent at Facebook or whatever is that this has always been the norm in virtually every conservative place, which is like 90% of provincial small towns, from which all the liberal and creative people have to run away in the first place.

foob4r 6y ago

Since when is thinking about others you work with called "political correctness"? I go to work to do my job and get a paycheck, ideally without drama. I don't give a day's ass about your MAGA hat.