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In my state you aren’t shamed for not wearing a mask, thankfully.
by dkdk8283 6y ago
In my state you aren’t shamed for not wearing a mask, thankfully.
- jshaqaw 6y agoMy family has already had Covid-19. We wear masks to not be jerks and make others fearful or uncomfortable because we can’t be bothered to put a simple article of clothing on.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoCome on, just wear a mask. Why would you resist it as though it's something to be proud of? Even if the only thing that it does is make other people feel safe, that's a good enough reason.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- vorpalhex 6y agoWell the same reason you don't share your email with the FBI and agree to be monitored at all times. I wear a mask, and I choose to wear a mask. I also wore a mask before it was "supported" by the CDC. If tomorrow it was legally required, I would stop wearing a mask.
- kilroy_jones 6y agoIf they had made it a temporary law and fined people heavily at the very beginning it would have saved thousands of lives and jobs. Look at the countries that acted swiftly back in January and February.
- vorpalhex 6y agoIn the US, legal requirements would have been met with more resistance and people not wearing masks intentionally and probably civil unrest. Sometimes asking is better than demanding. Texas asked and had excellent compliance. Michigan demanded and had angry protestors.
- kilroy_jones 6y agoThat people consider civil unrest because they're told to wear masks for a few months in order to prevent countless deaths is more a sign of a broken culture than anything else.
- vorpalhex 6y agoThis is a US specific phenomenon, and it's not a new one. I will further argue it is a critical principle for Democracy. The issue is not being asked to wear a mask, the issue is legally mandating them. I can ask you to donate money to a political party - you may say no, but me asking is perfectly fine. If I force you under duress to donate - well, that's something else, isn't it? Freedom is the ability to say no, even if that isn't an optimal choice. Taking that freedom away leads to bad outcomes like arresting people for unpopular views and sending Muslims to "re-education" camps.
- kilroy_jones 6y agoI assume you're also against seatbelt and helmet laws. What about those laws applying to children? What about smoking laws? The US already has numerous laws that few people complain about because they've come to recognize them as necessary for the public good. But that was only after they were passed and enforced.
- vorpalhex 6y agoI have no innate right to use government roads. Likewise, kids do not have rights the same way an adult does. The government can compel education until you're 18 (thankfully). We do not have laws because they are good. It is the case that some laws are good, but we have laws because the goal of governments is to govern the people. The difference between a democracy and an oligarch is the source of that right. I have no special rights over you. I am not any better, I am not empowered by any god or special bloodline. I, if elected in a democracy, can pass laws but I can't limit your rights. I can't compel you to worship somebody, limit what you say or take your property - even if I have a good reason.
- dkdk8283 6y agoThis is an extremely dangerous line of thought. That’s not the type of country I want to live in.
- kilroy_jones 6y agoIt's not dangerous at all. The US already has helmet laws for motorcycles and kids on bikes, seatbelt laws, gun laws around safe use and numerous other laws that prevent people from inadvertently affecting others lives. Making people wear masks in public transport or other public settings during a pandemic is hardly an overreach in comparison.
- quietbritishjim 6y ago> Well the same reason you don't share your email with the FBI and agree to be monitored at all times. Perhaps you could spell out this reason, and explain how it also applies to wearing face masks?
- vorpalhex 6y agoThe issue is not wearing masks. The issue is legally mandating them. You should wear a mask. You may be an asymptomatic carrier, and masks have fairly good odds (~90%) at stopping liquid droplet spread. However legally mandating masks is a different problem. The state is engaging in compelled action - which is usually right out save a few cases. Just as the state can't legally mandate someone to say they support the president, the state can't mandate helpful behavior - it's just not a power the state has. Could the state legally require condoms unless you were intending to conceive? Condoms are effective at stopping almost all std/sti, and are 99.98% effective when used properly at preventing unwanted pregnancy. We could eliminate HIV tomorrow if the state forced their usage. You should use a condom, but that isn't the same as legally mandating them.
- quietbritishjim 6y agoYou are confusing mandating masks in order to protect the wearer with the real purpose: to protect people around them. Wearing masks protects other people from being infected if you unwittingly have the disease. Clearly, states have the right (and indeed responsibility) to mandate that their citizens do not recklessly endanger other citizens in specific encoded ways. For example, do you think it is unreasonable for there to be speed limits on roads? Or even that if someone shot their firearm around at random in a crowded place and happened to kill someone that they shouldn't be held responsible if they could prove they hadn't specifically meant to hurt anyone, they were just having a bit of a laugh? Maybe you actually do think the state shouldn't intrude on those freedoms, but you would be in a minority holding those views. Personally, I like laws that impose mask use during pandemics, speed limits on roads and restrictions against firing shots randomly into crowds, because their absence intrudes on my freedom to continue existing. I even consider it possible to like these things while not considering it reasonable to "share your email with the FBI and agree to be monitored at all times". An analogy about condom use does not explain the connection at all.
- justin66 6y ago> I wear a mask, and I choose to wear a mask. I also wore a mask before it was "supported" by the CDC. If tomorrow it was legally required, I would stop wearing a mask. How ethical.
- fzeroracer 6y agoSo how do you feel about speed limits then? Do you just go ahead and break the speed limit every chance you can get, because it's legally required to follow them?
- fooker 6y agoNice strawman.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoI don’t think it is a strawman. The parent commenter said he wears a mask, knows that it’s the right thing to do, but if there were a mask law he’d deliberately stop wearing it just to prove a point.
- vorpalhex 6y agoIf tomorrow you started fining or charging people not wearing a mask, who would it be? Statistically, a mixture of immigrants, minorities and the poor. Not a bunch of well off white soccer moms or gun toting rednecks, but the vulnerable. And who can stand up for themselves the least? Well, it's those same people - people who have the same rights as you and I on paper if not so much in a court system. So yes, I would challenge that, because I am in a position to defend myself and go to court. I have the funds, I own a suit, I can retain a lawyer. That's not true for those most likely to be affected by fines and criminal charges for not wearing a mask.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y agoRight, so I think the analogy holds. If you believed that speeding laws were enforced disproportionately against the vulnerable, you would presumably endanger people speeding so that you could go to court and prove your point.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
- zajd 6y agoDo you also not wear a seatbelt because it's legally required? Pretty small brained stuff on display here.
- Talanes 6y agoAre you wearing ONLY the mask? I assume you're also protesting the government's mandate on wearing clothing.
- vorpalhex 6y agoIs it government that mandates wearing clothing? If you are in your house are you always naked, or do you still wear at least pajamas?
- Dylan16807 6y agoYou can never be naked in public, so the proper comparison is whether you are never naked at home. Most people probably sit around their room naked at some point.
- Talanes 6y agoI mean, that really depends on if I'm going back into the common areas of the house or not.
- _emacsomancer_ 6y agoSo if the FBI didn't want to monitor everyone all the time, then you'd volunteer to be monitored?
- vorpalhex 6y agoNo? You have a logic flaw here, you've inverted the consequent, which does not imply an inverted antecedent.
- _emacsomancer_ 6y agoBecause you've set up the comparison in an illogical fashion it inevitably leads to nonsense. > Well the same reason you don't share your email with the FBI and agree to be monitored at all times. So if G=government requires me to do thing X, and X=I do thing X G→¬X G ----- ¬X and then: > I wear a mask, and I choose to wear a mask. I also wore a mask before it was "supported" by the CDC. If tomorrow it was legally required, I would stop wearing a mask. assuming that again G=government requires me to do thing X, and X=I do thing X, you're saying that G→¬X G ----- ¬X and also (because you have been wearing a mask): ¬G→X ¬G ----- X So then the "for the same reason" doesn't make sense. It invites the idea that the two cases are parallel, and the only logical way I see of forcing them to be parallel is if: ¬G→X ¬G ----- X is also true in the case of the FBI and emails. How is it "for the same reason" otherwise?
- vorpalhex 6y agohttps://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Affirming-the-Consequent https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Affirmi... You've also treated two unrelated statements as dependent clauses.
- _emacsomancer_ 6y agoI know enough logic not to need your links, thank you. And, no, my point was that you have tried to relate, in a hand-wavy fashion, two unrelated statements. So you can't say "it's for the same reason".
- dkdk8283 6y agoWhen did I say I don’t wear a mask? You’re making some big assumptions. This is the danger with vilifying someone who you disagree with. There will always be different opinions and views. Being civil and accepting of others seems to be less and less common under the guise of doing “the right thing”.