9 ms·

I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile. But I am very nostalgic for the time wh

I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile. But I am very nostalgic for the time where I would power up a Vic-20 and within seconds be able to get to work. Teaching my daughter to program on a modern computer, we spend more time bootstrapping and in process, than we do in actual development.

massysett 6y ago
If that’s what you really want, grab a used ThinkPad and put Arch Linux on it. It will boot in a few seconds and is much more powerful than a Vic-20.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  Still doesn't give you a programming environment, unless you want to do bash.
  - armatav 6y ago
    How does that even make sense? It’s an OS, go grab a Desktop Environment and download nvim, VSCode or whatever.
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      How does that even make sense? Because that was the experience on those old machines. Switch it on, straight to BASIC prompt in a second or so. If you want to program it’s frictionless. And you can’t break it because BASIC is in ROM.
      - harpratap 6y ago
        Flexibility vs complexity is a slippery slope.
      - cycomanic 6y ago
        If you want that today get a BBC microbit, switch on and you're directly in a python environment
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      The original line that I was responding to was > Teaching my daughter to program on a modern computer, we spend more time bootstrapping and in process, than we do in actual development. Arch Linux does not help with this, unless you make it boot into a VIC-20 emulator or something. Arch can help with boot speed, but once you're booted you're back in a full modern OS. So fine, install VSCode and Python... okay, now you get to figure out libraries. Manage terminals. Arrange a filesystem. This is not getting you closer to the VIC-20 or C64's "boot into BASIC".
      - cosmojg 6y ago
        This is very possible on Arch Linux, moreso than other distributions. After installing Arch, just run the following two commands: sudo pacman -S xonsh chsh --shell /usr/bin/xonsh Bam! You're booting straight into a full Python environment when you turn on your computer. This is similarly achievable with other languages as well, including BASIC.
      - smcameron 6y ago
        How about Processing. https://processing.org/ https://processing.org/
  - gorrillaribs 6y ago
    Doesn't arch come with python & gcc out of the box?
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      No, although `pacman -Syu python base-devel` isn't exactly a burden. But then what? If you're trying to get back to a simple "turn on computer, land in simple programming environment", how does it help that you have python and gcc available? You still have to manage libraries, learn to use a compiler, and all the other joys of modern development. The only thing Arch Linux gained you was a bit simpler OS and maybe better boot times.
  - Throwaeay2928 6y ago
    Yes it does. When you pacstrap you include base devel. From that moment onwards your you will have a full programming environment all ready to rock and roll on your installation.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      Yes, and you have a full operating system and all the joys of modern development. You absolutely do not have anything like a VIC-20 that you can power on end have a basic programming environment 5 seconds later. At best, you turn it on and 5 seconds later have a python shell, where you can do a certain amount of development before you get to experience the joys of managing libraries and dependencies. Thus bringing us back to what I perceived as the primary complaint that there's way too much setup and baggage required just to get to the actual programming part.
      - californical 6y ago
        You can use python without needing to manage any packages -- you'll have to write most things from scratch, but isn't that the hardware BASIC non-internet experience regardless?
tragomaskhalos 6y ago
That computers are just slower to interact with now is such a truism that we hardly remark upon it any more. It seems utterly insane that in the early 90's I could just run Windows 3.1 on a bit of kit that in all likelihood wouldn't even power a toaster today, and the experience was, well, frictionless. I don't recall ever thinking "wtf is this thing doing?", whereas today, by contrast, if I have the audacity to be afk for long enough for my Windows 10 box to go sleep I know I am in for an infuriating waste of minutes' worth of disk thrashing before the bloody thing even deigns to reacknowledge my existence.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  I call this 'Outsourcing the cost of development to the user'... Getting knowledgeable people costs money so we build more abstractions that lower the cost of development and pass the costs of development from the company to the user in the form of requiring more hardware to do the same thing. How come I need 16Gb of RAM these days when 8Gb did it yesterday? How come my phone needs 4Gb of RAM while my 2012 tablet had 1Gb? Sure the hardware is cheaper but we're still not using the hardware to it's fullest.
  - karatestomp 6y ago
    My 256MB RAM, 900Mhz Duron machine (single core, naturally) in ~2002 (IIRC?) could do just about everything my modern one can. We even had video chat! It was just much lower res. The limiting factor in online stuff was, by far, connection speed, not the power of my hardware. That was about the point where the hardware was fast enough and had enough memory that I could multitask in a modern way without hitting problems like popping/stuttering audio or bad swap issues. Aside from legitimate increases in memory use for higher-res media, most everything since then, from my perspective, has been pure bloat. Why does 16x that memory and two cores at double the clock feel insufficient for extremely similar workloads and software feature-sets? Fucking bloat is why. Largely, but far from solely, web-tech infesting everything. Before that, my 64MB RAM 100mhz Pentium could usually have a couple things open before it'd hit swap too badly. I'm talking like Word and a web browser, not calc and notepad. None of the equivalent programs to those can even open all on their own in a footprint smaller than 64MB these days, let alone with other programs and the OS in the same space. Hell, how many operating systems fit in that with a GUI as capable and usable as, say, Win98se (let alone something really incredible on the performance front, like BeOS)?
hota_mazi 6y ago
It takes less than five seconds for my Windows 10 to go from asleep to ready for work, and that includes logging in with Windows Hello (the fingerprint reading is crazy fast).
kens 6y ago
At the Computer History Museum, I use an IBM 1401 mainframe (1959). When you hit the power button, relays go ch-ch-chunk and it's immediately ready to use. Because it has magnetic core memory, it even has the previous program already in memory, preserved over power-down. Computers have taken many steps backwards as far as startup time. Of course, loading a new program from punch cards is slow, so some things have improved :-)
- kar1181 6y ago
  I've spent surely coming up on years watching and reading all the content you've either created or helped produce. Indeed some things may have improved, but I sure enjoy the heck reading and watching all your exploits with 'legacy computing'!
chooseaname 6y ago
So, the question is will people get to a point and say enough is enough? And if so, will enough people be saying it for it to make a difference?
downerending 6y ago
On the plus side, emacs now starts far faster than most computers.
gorgoiler 6y ago
Watch a repl.it boot. It is the new joy, for children, to see an entire machine appear before their eyes and be able to instantly code away on it.
blondin 6y ago
> I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile. care to elaborate a bit? what did you understand? i just can't get my head around this idea that most non-mobile OSes have become such hostile environments... yes, the population at large only uses their phones and tablets and doesn't care much. but they would be left without any entertainment if it wasn't for those of us who still need decent non-mobile environments.
amelius 6y ago
We're moving away from general purpose computing, and Apple is one of the greatest forces in this. Also, they are a threat to a free market for software, as they regulate their walled garden with arbitrary rules and skim off a lot of value. I honestly don't understand why a large portion of developers have so much love for Apple. I'm personally a proud owner of a desktop PC with an ASUS motherboard. It serves me fine, and gives me full control over the software installed on it. I'm not a laptop-person but I believe there are many perfectly capable non-Apple laptops out there.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Because for those of us that care about graphics and selling desktop applications, it is mostly Apple, Google or Microsoft platforms.

massysett 6y ago

If that’s what you really want, grab a used ThinkPad and put Arch Linux on it. It will boot in a few seconds and is much more powerful than a Vic-20.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
Still doesn't give you a programming environment, unless you want to do bash.
- armatav 6y ago
  How does that even make sense? It’s an OS, go grab a Desktop Environment and download nvim, VSCode or whatever.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    How does that even make sense? Because that was the experience on those old machines. Switch it on, straight to BASIC prompt in a second or so. If you want to program it’s frictionless. And you can’t break it because BASIC is in ROM.
    - harpratap 6y ago
      Flexibility vs complexity is a slippery slope.
    - cycomanic 6y ago
      If you want that today get a BBC microbit, switch on and you're directly in a python environment
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    The original line that I was responding to was > Teaching my daughter to program on a modern computer, we spend more time bootstrapping and in process, than we do in actual development. Arch Linux does not help with this, unless you make it boot into a VIC-20 emulator or something. Arch can help with boot speed, but once you're booted you're back in a full modern OS. So fine, install VSCode and Python... okay, now you get to figure out libraries. Manage terminals. Arrange a filesystem. This is not getting you closer to the VIC-20 or C64's "boot into BASIC".
    - cosmojg 6y ago
      This is very possible on Arch Linux, moreso than other distributions. After installing Arch, just run the following two commands: sudo pacman -S xonsh chsh --shell /usr/bin/xonsh Bam! You're booting straight into a full Python environment when you turn on your computer. This is similarly achievable with other languages as well, including BASIC.
    - smcameron 6y ago
      How about Processing. https://processing.org/ https://processing.org/
- gorrillaribs 6y ago
  Doesn't arch come with python & gcc out of the box?
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    No, although `pacman -Syu python base-devel` isn't exactly a burden. But then what? If you're trying to get back to a simple "turn on computer, land in simple programming environment", how does it help that you have python and gcc available? You still have to manage libraries, learn to use a compiler, and all the other joys of modern development. The only thing Arch Linux gained you was a bit simpler OS and maybe better boot times.
- Throwaeay2928 6y ago
  Yes it does. When you pacstrap you include base devel. From that moment onwards your you will have a full programming environment all ready to rock and roll on your installation.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Yes, and you have a full operating system and all the joys of modern development. You absolutely do not have anything like a VIC-20 that you can power on end have a basic programming environment 5 seconds later. At best, you turn it on and 5 seconds later have a python shell, where you can do a certain amount of development before you get to experience the joys of managing libraries and dependencies. Thus bringing us back to what I perceived as the primary complaint that there's way too much setup and baggage required just to get to the actual programming part.
    - californical 6y ago
      You can use python without needing to manage any packages -- you'll have to write most things from scratch, but isn't that the hardware BASIC non-internet experience regardless?

tragomaskhalos 6y ago

That computers are just slower to interact with now is such a truism that we hardly remark upon it any more. It seems utterly insane that in the early 90's I could just run Windows 3.1 on a bit of kit that in all likelihood wouldn't even power a toaster today, and the experience was, well, frictionless. I don't recall ever thinking "wtf is this thing doing?", whereas today, by contrast, if I have the audacity to be afk for long enough for my Windows 10 box to go sleep I know I am in for an infuriating waste of minutes' worth of disk thrashing before the bloody thing even deigns to reacknowledge my existence.

WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
I call this 'Outsourcing the cost of development to the user'... Getting knowledgeable people costs money so we build more abstractions that lower the cost of development and pass the costs of development from the company to the user in the form of requiring more hardware to do the same thing. How come I need 16Gb of RAM these days when 8Gb did it yesterday? How come my phone needs 4Gb of RAM while my 2012 tablet had 1Gb? Sure the hardware is cheaper but we're still not using the hardware to it's fullest.
- karatestomp 6y ago
  My 256MB RAM, 900Mhz Duron machine (single core, naturally) in ~2002 (IIRC?) could do just about everything my modern one can. We even had video chat! It was just much lower res. The limiting factor in online stuff was, by far, connection speed, not the power of my hardware. That was about the point where the hardware was fast enough and had enough memory that I could multitask in a modern way without hitting problems like popping/stuttering audio or bad swap issues. Aside from legitimate increases in memory use for higher-res media, most everything since then, from my perspective, has been pure bloat. Why does 16x that memory and two cores at double the clock feel insufficient for extremely similar workloads and software feature-sets? Fucking bloat is why. Largely, but far from solely, web-tech infesting everything. Before that, my 64MB RAM 100mhz Pentium could usually have a couple things open before it'd hit swap too badly. I'm talking like Word and a web browser, not calc and notepad. None of the equivalent programs to those can even open all on their own in a footprint smaller than 64MB these days, let alone with other programs and the OS in the same space. Hell, how many operating systems fit in that with a GUI as capable and usable as, say, Win98se (let alone something really incredible on the performance front, like BeOS)?

hota_mazi 6y ago

It takes less than five seconds for my Windows 10 to go from asleep to ready for work, and that includes logging in with Windows Hello (the fingerprint reading is crazy fast).

kens 6y ago

At the Computer History Museum, I use an IBM 1401 mainframe (1959). When you hit the power button, relays go ch-ch-chunk and it's immediately ready to use. Because it has magnetic core memory, it even has the previous program already in memory, preserved over power-down. Computers have taken many steps backwards as far as startup time. Of course, loading a new program from punch cards is slow, so some things have improved :-)

kar1181 6y ago
I've spent surely coming up on years watching and reading all the content you've either created or helped produce. Indeed some things may have improved, but I sure enjoy the heck reading and watching all your exploits with 'legacy computing'!

chooseaname 6y ago

So, the question is will people get to a point and say enough is enough? And if so, will enough people be saying it for it to make a difference?

downerending 6y ago

On the plus side, emacs now starts far faster than most computers.

gorgoiler 6y ago

Watch a repl.it boot. It is the new joy, for children, to see an entire machine appear before their eyes and be able to instantly code away on it.

blondin 6y ago

> I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile. care to elaborate a bit? what did you understand? i just can't get my head around this idea that most non-mobile OSes have become such hostile environments... yes, the population at large only uses their phones and tablets and doesn't care much. but they would be left without any entertainment if it wasn't for those of us who still need decent non-mobile environments.

amelius 6y ago

We're moving away from general purpose computing, and Apple is one of the greatest forces in this. Also, they are a threat to a free market for software, as they regulate their walled garden with arbitrary rules and skim off a lot of value. I honestly don't understand why a large portion of developers have so much love for Apple. I'm personally a proud owner of a desktop PC with an ASUS motherboard. It serves me fine, and gives me full control over the software installed on it. I'm not a laptop-person but I believe there are many perfectly capable non-Apple laptops out there.

pjmlp 6y ago
Because for those of us that care about graphics and selling desktop applications, it is mostly Apple, Google or Microsoft platforms.