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I've read a few of these work from home related articles here on HN and I have to say, I'm super surprised by how many people are both vehemently against the id

I've read a few of these work from home related articles here on HN and I have to say, I'm super surprised by how many people are both vehemently against the idea of remote and generally pessimistic for what it would mean for society. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but my main hobby outside of work is outdoors related. I consistently spend my Friday nights driving 3+ hours to the mountains. The idea of being able to up and move to a mountain town, save the hours I'd be commuting to work AND commuting to the mountains, is so exciting to me. And that's on top of just the happiness I'd get being able to look out my window and see (what I consider) nature vs the cookie cutter buildings of suburbia Silicon Valley. Where are the cyclists, the surfers, the skiiers/snowboarders, dirt bikers, rock climbers, etc etc in these threads? I really can't believe there are that few of us... But on top of just hobbies, I'd be so excited to see what society could look like in a much more remote world. I think a lot of people would spread out and leave Silicon Valley (but not everyone obviously). I think you'd see more small/medium sized towns pop up across the US that would develop their own uniqueness and character. Traffic deaths would likely go down because people would drive less. Maybe general physical fitness/health would go up because people aren't sitting in their cars and have time to exercise? People working minimum wage jobs would likely have better access to housing as demand spreads and isn't as concentrated. We could see a maaassssive change in the lives of the population, and I'm optimistic it would be for the better. Note: I'm not saying everyone should be fully remote, or that working remote works for everyone, but the general lack of any real optimism about what life COULD be like in these threads is surprising to me.

121789 6y ago
I think people are rightfully wary about massive employment changes that could have significant negative consequences. I see a slow shift from treating ICs like people with differentiated skillsets to undifferentiated drones. I think that rarely works out for the employee.
- sb52191 6y ago
  "I see a slow shift from treating ICs like people with differentiated skillsets to undifferentiated drones. I think that rarely works out for the employee." I see it as the opposite. If an employer goes from mandating everyone be in office all the time, to allowing ICs to have a choice, doesn't that treat them less like an undifferentiated drone and acknowledge that some people work better WFH and others don't, or that for some projects you might want to be away from the office for extended periods of time?
  - 121789 6y ago
    > to allowing ICs to have a choice, doesn't that treat them less like an undifferentiated drone...? No, on aggregate it will be the opposite, I think. Each dev will be treated more like an API--requirements go in and products come out. When the entire country is your labor pool rather than a select population close to your office, that's easier.
    - mrep 6y ago
      Whose writing the design docs and the requirements then?
    - silveroriole 6y ago
      What’s so bad about being treated as an interchangeable ‘drone’? Let’s face it, for most of us, it’s true. If we weren’t there doing that particular jira, someone else would be. Similarly, the company I work at is pretty interchangeable for me. If I wasn’t at x company, I’d be at y company doing almost identical work. As long as you work to live, not live to work, it’s not really that threatening being ‘a cog in the machine’. In fact it’s pretty relaxing, predictable and an easy way to earn money.
- birdyrooster 6y ago
  Ahh, I once worked for Google too.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  Yeah, I think as employees this is key. The ability to go to office makes you stand out as a human being and not as a commodity remote black box problem solver. Fuck, just look at investment bankers why do you think they fly and see their customers face to face even at this lockdown times? Their financial models and ideas are the same but the human element of trust and communication. I'm an early career stage software engineer and things like this shift to remote work make me uneasy about the viability of software as a career for me. In other fields, the more experience you get the less of a commodity you're treated as, here it sometimes feels as if relevance if pretty much out of our control, the more experience you have in a focused area the more you are seen as a tool for a particular job I'd say instead of a generalist.
  - gofreddygo 6y ago
    Well since you're in early stage in your career, if being a black box, a replacable commodity makes you feel uneasy, you'd be better off exploring alternative satisfying career path while not getting too invested in tech, time wise. Futher down the road you'll see yourself be more a commodity, more burn out, more kids replacing your job with newer skillset at lower salaries. If the human touch is important to you, there are a lot of careers that you will thrive at, especially with your tech skills that you can apply almost anywhere.
typest 6y ago
I totally agree with you. The general negativity towards remote work seems, to me, to reflect a lack of imagination about how our lives, and our societies, could be organized in a world with more remote work. The potential reduction in housing cost alone(one of the largest inhibitors to developing wealth for most Americans) should be a massive cause for celebration. We can stop orienting our lives and our cities around commuting (and therefore cars) and start focusing on people. People complain about the loss of the workplace as a social environment. What about the opportunities to create new social environments that aren't centered around work? I wrote more about this here, if you're interested https://manyfoxgiven.com/2020/01/21/remote-work-promise/ https://manyfoxgiven.com/2020/01/21/remote-work-promise/
- taurath 6y ago
  That all implies that people won’t be working more - while it’s true commute times being cut is a huge benefit, I’m concerned about employer demands and culture leaning more into people working more, especially across time zones. When there is more competition for roles those who are willing to work more and longer will advance. That said, I also hold out great hope for this development. I’m already looking at places I’d like to live because I’d like to live there, not because there are jobs.
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    That would probably require changes in laws around the 40 hour work week and overtime, don’t you think? If enough engineers are making less, they’ll probably request the ‘exempt’ status be removed and suddenly they get overtime for those extra hours. Did people that live in company towns tend to work 70* hours a week?
- fourmyle 6y ago
  Most of what people talk about is going on a snowboarding trip while getting paid to "WFH" not the day to day reality of it.
  - xur17 6y ago
ppoint 6y ago
There are just multiple opinions on remote work. Simple answer is that there is no right or wrong - it just depends on each individual case. There are people that would benefit from remote work - they might like living close to the mountains, no commute and they can still stay very productive while fully remote. There are also people who don't care about mountains, live close to work and are more productive while working in the office among other people. Both groups are right in what they value most, and as long as there is no detrimental effects to the business/employer - both seem like good options.
RC_ITR 6y ago
Well, environmentally, the preference is that humans live in dense cities & leave as much untouched nature as possible. Remote work may have as devastating an environmental impact as the automobile (if not more). Just wait until 250,000 of your fellow outdoor enthusiasts move to Wyoming...
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Are you trolling? The environmental impact of reduced traffic is far more significant- and currently observable during this quarantine- than a hypothetical horde of hikers.
  - webdood90 6y ago
    Cities centralize services and make them more efficient. Groceries, trash, hospitals, etc. By spreading all of these things out you make them less efficient. It seems you're overlooking everything else and focusing strictly on commuting's negative effects.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Perhaps, but those images of clouds of smog over LA or Beijing- though admittedly they might be largely produced industrial activity rather than transportation- certainly elicit a visceral response.
- maigret 6y ago
  Wyoming would still be empty. People would still not commute. But - they would still want to visit family and old friends, so not be too far from an airport or a highway, and they still need a good internet connection. Also, living somewhere cheaper is nice, but most still want access to concerts, culture, museums, libraries and so on. I agree there are many questions, but the last twenty years have unproportionally favourited a few megacities (and areas) where people are still miserable because the costs are even higher than the high incomes. Also, it would be great to bring more college graduates into the country, that would help against the political divide we have currently. Who knows how it will turn out, right? But a try it is definitely worth.
kthxbye123 6y ago
I think it’s much more likely that, rather than empowering employees to live rich and fulfilling lives outside of work, a massive shift to remote will drive down wages everywhere to the level of the cheapest locations where talent can be found - so instead of living on an SF salary in Coer d’Alene you’ll be living on a Lagos or Jakarta salary - while obliterating the distinction between “work life” and “home life” and massively sharpening the knife of competition hanging over every engineer’s head This may be different in firms where the workers actually have a say in the management of the company, but god knows there aren’t too many of those
- 121789 6y ago
  You said this much better than I could. I'd expect the power of management to increase over individual ICs, too.
- sb52191 6y ago
  "I think it’s much more likely that, rather than empowering employees to live rich and fulfilling lives outside of work, a massive shift to remote will drive down wages everywhere to the level of the cheapest locations where talent can be found - so instead of living on an SF salary in Coer d’Alene you’ll be living on a Lagos or Jakarta salary" I disagree. If companies felt they could readily get the same level of talent outside the US, why wouldn't they do that currently? Just set up their business in a foreign country and recruit internationally? And if they're still hiring domestically, why are you so sure they're going to dramatically reduce salaries? They still have to attract talent. If an employee wants to move from the bay area to Wyoming, and their employer says their pay will be cut 50%, what's to stop them from applying to Twitter or another company allowing full remote with (I'm assuming, I haven't checked) a much more competitive salary? "while obliterating the distinction between “work life” and “home life”" I've seen far too many emails sent by people at 11:30 PM and followed up with another email at 6 AM for me to believe this hasn't already happened. Not to mention the self imposed aspect of it (neither of those emails NEEDED to be sent at those times).
  - hadlock 6y ago
    Last couple of companies I worked at, they are already outsourcing "average" work. We had a QA manager in the bay area, and then he had a team of six people in SE asia doing QA/QA automation. On the engineering side we had a team of 20 engineers in eastern Europe working for less than 30k/year usd working on bug fixes and test coverage, UI fixes, modifying legacy code from the original monolith that didn't change a whole lot etc In the bay area we only had five engineers, mostly focuses on architecture, R&D, new products etc, and even then they only came in two-three days a week mostly for face to face meetings. The VP had a lake house in tahoe and would work remote for 2 months every summer. I can see a bunch of legacy code maintenance/qa work moving offshore further, but there will always be a core group of five to ten engineers who meet at the central office a couple times a month. Remote will increase but humans still need face to face contact periodically.
higeorge13 6y ago
Some of these thoughts are wishful thinking though. The majority of people will not explore the mountains, travel, visit more their family and friends, exercise and improve their wellbeing, but will probably spend even more time at home, stuck on their smartphones and social media all day, making them miserable and lonelier. I might sound pessimistic but it was already happening before covid19 with all these social media nonsense.
- halfdan 6y ago
  I'd wager a guess and say that this was exacerbated by the fact that people had to move and live in cities far away from loved ones and away from places where they could spend time outside. The opportunity cost of "driving three hours to a nice hike location" Vs. "I'll just look at my screen to recover from mindless work" was too high.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  At least they wouldn't deal with the extra stress of commuting, or traffic from other commuters.
- maigret 6y ago
  If I can really rearrange my life around remote, be sure my couch will not be my first choice :D I've seen social media make enough people miserable and sad, but there might come a time of reckoning that will change that and have people focus more on what happens locally. Hopefully, when the crisis settles, attending offline events will be the new cool for a while and the world will be better off.
sh-run 6y ago
I'm with you, but I think this post also highlights the need for protected land. I'd really hate to see any National Forest land go away because everyone who wants to live somewhere with a view now can. More people/better infrastructure in Gunnison, CO would be great. Maroon Bells getting a housing development and a golf course? Not so great. I'm worried that more people in small mountain towns near national forests has the potential to slowly eat away the national forest.
hosh 6y ago
I'm with you, that is how I feel. I have been working full-time remote since ... well, for most of my career. My wife and I decided to be in a major metropolitan area because of our kids and schools... but back before, we were living in more rural, mountain areas with a lot of access to outdoors. At some point, we're going to get a small trailer for my use as an office, or an office trailer. It's something I would want anyways. I think one good compromise with this is having a remote-first company pay for either a home office, or the membership fees for a coworking space. Some people really enjoy the interpersonal interaction. Me? I get enough of it via Slack and Zoom, and the occasional in-person conferences and on-sites. One of the positives I can see us moving towards is greater interpersonal interaction with the local neighbors, and greater mixed-use spaces like it used to be. You work from home some of the days, and then walk down the street for the coffee and bagals. You talk with the neighborhood grocers. You can hang out at the community gardens. You make your living with things that could be done remote, but there is a much better sense of community where you live. When you spend money, it would be within the local community, so it helps distribute the wealth to people who you live side by side. And ok, maybe if you don't like to cook, instead of using one of those apps to get some food from across town, you support your neighbors who love to cook. In other words, instead of bonding primarily with the people you work with, your main community is the one you live in. I think that's generally a good thing. There's a project called the Urban Farming Guys. They do a lot of hard work for developing food resilency, and transformed one of the worst neighborhoods in Kansas City into something that is great. Imagine living there, because you cared about the work they did. You work the remote job by day, and then walk over to their makerspace to teach the neighborhood kids about coding. When they ask for donations, you could spread some of the wealth from working with a remote tech job. You would have a choice to live with the people who share the same values that you do. Here's the thing. I think a lot of people feel that they will be disconnected from people if they work remote. But I think if they were able to choose where they live, they might find that they are even _more_ connected with the people they live with, in the neighborhood they live with. I think there is a modern malaise of disconnection and brokenness, and that won't really be solved without reconnecting to your local community. The interpersonal camaderie at work is an imperfect substitute for what I think most people crave without realizing they crave it.
- 6y ago
52-6F-62 6y ago
My own workplace is remaining remote for the time being. We moved out of our office prior to eventually maybe moving into one. We might not all be asked to move back in permanently. I had looked in the past for remote work for precisely the reasons you mentioned. On top of that my partner would love to move back to Vancouver Island for a spell. Also Toronto is bloody expensive. We've discussed all kinds of different options... but one of the core motivators would be affording a house, with some land. Being closer to family—mine or hers—and spending more time outdoors. Also not having to commute 1+ hour each way—yes, please.
partiallypro 6y ago
I love working fully remote, but in the past month my job has become my entire life. Maybe that's because I can't leave the house, but I do fear that could stick. With employers expecting employees to be available constantly. Even more so than now/5 months ago.
- winrid 6y ago
  Yeah, it was a real struggle for a while to just respond "No" to random 7pm or 8am meetings...
trianglem 6y ago
Hear hear! Work and what I consider “real” life are two completely different things for me.
diob 6y ago
I replied much the same to someone on twitter. They were complaining that their coworkers were good friends and they thought remote meant they would no longer have friends. No! You'll now be able to make friends outside of tech! Imagine being able to work from the diner, or a coffee shop, or a bookstore, or a another country entirely! You're going to be able to make friends with so many different people. It would be a wonderful thing for the world. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think it would go a long ways toward breaking humans out of the bubbles they tend to stay in. Maybe people would start to empathize and understand one another better.
- daseiner1 6y ago
  We live in a society experiencing a crisis of loneliness. Stripping away yet another built-in opportunity for in-person socialization and community building is going to make that worse, not better.
  - banads 6y ago
    There are endless other "built-in opportunities" out there for socialization, and remote work gives the freedom to choose them for yourself rather than being forced into an arbitrary office for the majority of your life.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - hoten 6y ago
      Choosing is part of the issue, and at that point it is not longer "built-in". People make friends with those physically around on a regular basis–I can only think of three environments where making friends is "built-in": school, work, and church. You never have all three, but at least we always have just one. I get that all it takes is to find a meet up of like minded individuals that meet up regularly, but sometimes even that is hard to find.
      - 6y ago
biztos 6y ago
I'm working from home in just such a mountain town right now. If you're willing to go far enough up the mountain, real estate is still quite affordable. And I think you'd be welcomed if you actually live in a small town full-time (as opposed to keeping a vacation home) and get involved with the local community. Many of these places -- the ones just out of organic-grocery-store range -- have been losing population for decades. Of course, in California, you have to make your peace with living in the Red State within the Blue State, in case that's a thing for you.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
cameronlpm 6y ago
I'm an outdoors enthusiast like yourself and feel similarly, but I would wager that the average tech employee is not an outdoorsman/adventurist/athlete, and might not have any hobbies at all aside from spending time with family, watching TV, playing video games, infinitely scrolling on their phones, etc. Also, a lot of these SF headquarters are really nice office spaces with all of the perks (free food mostly) versus the average home office. I have to imagine a lot of people enjoy their offices simply because it's nicer than the space they live in.
- fossuser 6y ago
  I only have a limited selection bias based on where I work, but it seems like there is disproportionately more athletes in these highly competitive companies in the bay area than I've seen elsewhere. This person was division I MIT crew, this person runs 200mi ultra-marathons, many coworkers have done an Ironman or two, many are cycling 100+mi/wk, many are running marathons or 10mi a day at sub six-minute pace. Where I grew up the number for any of these things would be zero, but here it feels common. I'd guess partly highly selective entry from top schools biases towards people that are also athletes, or that there's some positive correlation with competitive/ambitious people and making sure to exercise. I suspect the normal no-exercise indoorsy stereotype is actually wrong when compared to other people on average.
  - sb52191 6y ago
    This is my experience as well, atleast among younger employees. Presumably the older employees that have kids don't have as much time for hobbies/passions like that.
  - karatestomp 6y ago
    Fitness and being fit—especially the right fitness activities—has become a major status/class thing. Lots of articles about it over the last, oh, decade or so, which might pass for documentation of the phenomenon, plus what you can see if you've just been looking around and paying attention to trends, media, and marketing.
jedberg 6y ago
When I shifted to working from home I started exercising a lot less. My office had an onsite gym. I would go in early and start every day with exercise. I don't have all the equipment at home, so I only go to the gym once a week (well before lockdown, now I go 0 times but did end up getting some equipment). Also the food. The office had free healthy food. Now I have to make my own lunch, which is often cheap easy crap and late in the day. Also I miss socializing with adults that aren't my spouse. She's great and all, but we've already heard all of each other's stories. :) I very much value all the extra time I get to spend with my family, and I also value the fact that when we wanted to spend a week in the mountains I could just up and go and work from there. But there are definitely tradeoffs.
- gnicholas 6y ago
  As a founder who works from home, I noticed that some days my step count was under 1,000. That is terrible. I started going for walks (before it was covid-cool) most days. I try to take my calls while walking, and I find that my most creative ideas come while I'm walking.
hodgesrm 6y ago
I love the outdoors, so your comment really speaks to me. But speaking as someone who has worked remotely for the last 15+ years I'm skeptical that the model will become even close to dominant. * Not everyone is equally productive when working remotely. For a variety of reasons some people just work better in offices. * Mixed office/remote teams are unstable. People will be drawn to offices if only for career reasons, which makes it harder for the remote works, hence makes the office more attractive, etc. * Some jobs are just better done in person. Auto repair is not a remote job. Same for manufacturing. What I hope for is that companies will realize they don't need everyone to commute to the office every damn day. I freed up about 3 hours of transit time and reduced my annual carbon emissions by about a ton just by commuting one day less in the Bay Area. There's no reason why most white collar jobs can't work from home a couple of days a week. This would already be a huge improvement.
- 121789 6y ago
  I think the reality is that you never get the best of both worlds. Companies will not spend on expensive real estate and amenities for people only in the office 2-3 days per week. Either there will have to be big sacrifices (open offices with no reserved desks/seating/equipment, like how consulting does this), or there will be no office offered at all.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >Not everyone is equally productive when working remotely. For a variety of reasons some people just work better in offices. It's probably a bit bleak to say, but those people will likely be replaced by others who are productive working remotely given the new, wider talent pool a fully remote company will have access to.
  - solidasparagus 6y ago
    I don't understand this thinking that remote work will lead to hiring all over the world. I've worked on a bunch of teams split across timezones and I have never seen a team successfully function as a single team with more than a 3 hour timezone difference.
Greed 6y ago
I agree wholeheartedly, I've had the pleasure to work remotely for the majority of my career and it has been nothing but bliss to be able to focus on the living part of life and not just the working part of it. There's nothing I enjoy more than having deep technical talks with very smart people, but I'm not really interested in living within that tech bubble 100% of the time. How many times can you have the same conversation with someone complaining about <outdated software library> and being underpaid at <six figure salary>? It's amazing to me how few people in this industry have exposure to the world of experiences outside of the pinhole purview of techworld concerns. Going remote means you actually get to choose your day to day friends, experiences, social life, and culture instead of having them forced upon you! Craft your life the way you want to live it.
globular-toast 6y ago
> I've read a few of these work from home related articles here on HN and I have to say, I'm super surprised by how many people are both vehemently against the idea of remote and generally pessimistic for what it would mean for society. I can think of one big reason why HN readership is suddenly worried about the prospect of universal WFH: they realise that the supply in the labour market is going to suddenly double. No longer will companies be able to justify paying them huge amounts of money because people from all over the world are just as good and able to work for much less. Remember a lot of people here are now addicted to money. They don't much else in life besides that.
egman_ekki 6y ago
> Where are the cyclists, the surfers, the skiiers/snowboarders, dirt bikers, rock climbers, etc etc in these threads? I'd say they are out there riding bikes, skiing or climbing, not discussing WFH arrangements for the third time this week :D
ironman1478 6y ago
I don't really like working from home, primarily because I like the social aspect of a workplace and also because I have a very hard time separating work from home life. But if places transitioned to something like 3 days a week wfh, with the option to come in anyway but not the expectation. I'd totally love that because I do a lot of outdoors stuff too and I like sleeping in lol, which commuting prevents, but I don't need this everyday (though others might, especially those with kids). But I really think communication simply when not in person is sub par, but that could be a failing on my part or those in my company.
gofreddygo 6y ago
I see most negativity around WFH is from some form of fear. Competition. Some believe that once orgs and managers get comfortable with a fully remote team, whats to stop them from replacing or supplementing office-only team with a cheaper remote-first one. That increases employer options and shifts market power over to them. Work/life. Some like the hard separation between work and home. They are just not comfortable losing that wall. Social setup. Some are scared shitless when they realize they will lose their only social setup: office, and will have to start fresh and actually talk to people who don't share their view of the world. Family. For a lot of people, office is a convenient escape from family that does not get questioned. Take that out and it will drive them nuts to be around family all the time. Income. Some believe that more competition will lead to lower salaries lesser opportunities, forcing a move to a lower income area leading to lower income and that sounds bad.

121789 6y ago

I think people are rightfully wary about massive employment changes that could have significant negative consequences. I see a slow shift from treating ICs like people with differentiated skillsets to undifferentiated drones. I think that rarely works out for the employee.

sb52191 6y ago
"I see a slow shift from treating ICs like people with differentiated skillsets to undifferentiated drones. I think that rarely works out for the employee." I see it as the opposite. If an employer goes from mandating everyone be in office all the time, to allowing ICs to have a choice, doesn't that treat them less like an undifferentiated drone and acknowledge that some people work better WFH and others don't, or that for some projects you might want to be away from the office for extended periods of time?
- 121789 6y ago
  > to allowing ICs to have a choice, doesn't that treat them less like an undifferentiated drone...? No, on aggregate it will be the opposite, I think. Each dev will be treated more like an API--requirements go in and products come out. When the entire country is your labor pool rather than a select population close to your office, that's easier.
  - mrep 6y ago
    Whose writing the design docs and the requirements then?
  - silveroriole 6y ago
    What’s so bad about being treated as an interchangeable ‘drone’? Let’s face it, for most of us, it’s true. If we weren’t there doing that particular jira, someone else would be. Similarly, the company I work at is pretty interchangeable for me. If I wasn’t at x company, I’d be at y company doing almost identical work. As long as you work to live, not live to work, it’s not really that threatening being ‘a cog in the machine’. In fact it’s pretty relaxing, predictable and an easy way to earn money.
birdyrooster 6y ago
Ahh, I once worked for Google too.
dpoochieni 6y ago
Yeah, I think as employees this is key. The ability to go to office makes you stand out as a human being and not as a commodity remote black box problem solver. Fuck, just look at investment bankers why do you think they fly and see their customers face to face even at this lockdown times? Their financial models and ideas are the same but the human element of trust and communication. I'm an early career stage software engineer and things like this shift to remote work make me uneasy about the viability of software as a career for me. In other fields, the more experience you get the less of a commodity you're treated as, here it sometimes feels as if relevance if pretty much out of our control, the more experience you have in a focused area the more you are seen as a tool for a particular job I'd say instead of a generalist.
- gofreddygo 6y ago
  Well since you're in early stage in your career, if being a black box, a replacable commodity makes you feel uneasy, you'd be better off exploring alternative satisfying career path while not getting too invested in tech, time wise. Futher down the road you'll see yourself be more a commodity, more burn out, more kids replacing your job with newer skillset at lower salaries. If the human touch is important to you, there are a lot of careers that you will thrive at, especially with your tech skills that you can apply almost anywhere.

typest 6y ago

I totally agree with you. The general negativity towards remote work seems, to me, to reflect a lack of imagination about how our lives, and our societies, could be organized in a world with more remote work. The potential reduction in housing cost alone(one of the largest inhibitors to developing wealth for most Americans) should be a massive cause for celebration. We can stop orienting our lives and our cities around commuting (and therefore cars) and start focusing on people. People complain about the loss of the workplace as a social environment. What about the opportunities to create new social environments that aren't centered around work? I wrote more about this here, if you're interested https://manyfoxgiven.com/2020/01/21/remote-work-promise/ https://manyfoxgiven.com/2020/01/21/remote-work-promise/

taurath 6y ago
That all implies that people won’t be working more - while it’s true commute times being cut is a huge benefit, I’m concerned about employer demands and culture leaning more into people working more, especially across time zones. When there is more competition for roles those who are willing to work more and longer will advance. That said, I also hold out great hope for this development. I’m already looking at places I’d like to live because I’d like to live there, not because there are jobs.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  That would probably require changes in laws around the 40 hour work week and overtime, don’t you think? If enough engineers are making less, they’ll probably request the ‘exempt’ status be removed and suddenly they get overtime for those extra hours. Did people that live in company towns tend to work 70* hours a week?
fourmyle 6y ago
Most of what people talk about is going on a snowboarding trip while getting paid to "WFH" not the day to day reality of it.
- xur17 6y ago

ppoint 6y ago

There are just multiple opinions on remote work. Simple answer is that there is no right or wrong - it just depends on each individual case. There are people that would benefit from remote work - they might like living close to the mountains, no commute and they can still stay very productive while fully remote. There are also people who don't care about mountains, live close to work and are more productive while working in the office among other people. Both groups are right in what they value most, and as long as there is no detrimental effects to the business/employer - both seem like good options.

RC_ITR 6y ago

Well, environmentally, the preference is that humans live in dense cities & leave as much untouched nature as possible. Remote work may have as devastating an environmental impact as the automobile (if not more). Just wait until 250,000 of your fellow outdoor enthusiasts move to Wyoming...

Apocryphon 6y ago
Are you trolling? The environmental impact of reduced traffic is far more significant- and currently observable during this quarantine- than a hypothetical horde of hikers.
- webdood90 6y ago
  Cities centralize services and make them more efficient. Groceries, trash, hospitals, etc. By spreading all of these things out you make them less efficient. It seems you're overlooking everything else and focusing strictly on commuting's negative effects.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Perhaps, but those images of clouds of smog over LA or Beijing- though admittedly they might be largely produced industrial activity rather than transportation- certainly elicit a visceral response.
maigret 6y ago
Wyoming would still be empty. People would still not commute. But - they would still want to visit family and old friends, so not be too far from an airport or a highway, and they still need a good internet connection. Also, living somewhere cheaper is nice, but most still want access to concerts, culture, museums, libraries and so on. I agree there are many questions, but the last twenty years have unproportionally favourited a few megacities (and areas) where people are still miserable because the costs are even higher than the high incomes. Also, it would be great to bring more college graduates into the country, that would help against the political divide we have currently. Who knows how it will turn out, right? But a try it is definitely worth.

kthxbye123 6y ago

I think it’s much more likely that, rather than empowering employees to live rich and fulfilling lives outside of work, a massive shift to remote will drive down wages everywhere to the level of the cheapest locations where talent can be found - so instead of living on an SF salary in Coer d’Alene you’ll be living on a Lagos or Jakarta salary - while obliterating the distinction between “work life” and “home life” and massively sharpening the knife of competition hanging over every engineer’s head This may be different in firms where the workers actually have a say in the management of the company, but god knows there aren’t too many of those

121789 6y ago
You said this much better than I could. I'd expect the power of management to increase over individual ICs, too.
sb52191 6y ago
"I think it’s much more likely that, rather than empowering employees to live rich and fulfilling lives outside of work, a massive shift to remote will drive down wages everywhere to the level of the cheapest locations where talent can be found - so instead of living on an SF salary in Coer d’Alene you’ll be living on a Lagos or Jakarta salary" I disagree. If companies felt they could readily get the same level of talent outside the US, why wouldn't they do that currently? Just set up their business in a foreign country and recruit internationally? And if they're still hiring domestically, why are you so sure they're going to dramatically reduce salaries? They still have to attract talent. If an employee wants to move from the bay area to Wyoming, and their employer says their pay will be cut 50%, what's to stop them from applying to Twitter or another company allowing full remote with (I'm assuming, I haven't checked) a much more competitive salary? "while obliterating the distinction between “work life” and “home life”" I've seen far too many emails sent by people at 11:30 PM and followed up with another email at 6 AM for me to believe this hasn't already happened. Not to mention the self imposed aspect of it (neither of those emails NEEDED to be sent at those times).
- hadlock 6y ago
  Last couple of companies I worked at, they are already outsourcing "average" work. We had a QA manager in the bay area, and then he had a team of six people in SE asia doing QA/QA automation. On the engineering side we had a team of 20 engineers in eastern Europe working for less than 30k/year usd working on bug fixes and test coverage, UI fixes, modifying legacy code from the original monolith that didn't change a whole lot etc In the bay area we only had five engineers, mostly focuses on architecture, R&D, new products etc, and even then they only came in two-three days a week mostly for face to face meetings. The VP had a lake house in tahoe and would work remote for 2 months every summer. I can see a bunch of legacy code maintenance/qa work moving offshore further, but there will always be a core group of five to ten engineers who meet at the central office a couple times a month. Remote will increase but humans still need face to face contact periodically.

higeorge13 6y ago

Some of these thoughts are wishful thinking though. The majority of people will not explore the mountains, travel, visit more their family and friends, exercise and improve their wellbeing, but will probably spend even more time at home, stuck on their smartphones and social media all day, making them miserable and lonelier. I might sound pessimistic but it was already happening before covid19 with all these social media nonsense.

halfdan 6y ago
I'd wager a guess and say that this was exacerbated by the fact that people had to move and live in cities far away from loved ones and away from places where they could spend time outside. The opportunity cost of "driving three hours to a nice hike location" Vs. "I'll just look at my screen to recover from mindless work" was too high.
Apocryphon 6y ago
At least they wouldn't deal with the extra stress of commuting, or traffic from other commuters.
maigret 6y ago
If I can really rearrange my life around remote, be sure my couch will not be my first choice :D I've seen social media make enough people miserable and sad, but there might come a time of reckoning that will change that and have people focus more on what happens locally. Hopefully, when the crisis settles, attending offline events will be the new cool for a while and the world will be better off.

sh-run 6y ago

I'm with you, but I think this post also highlights the need for protected land. I'd really hate to see any National Forest land go away because everyone who wants to live somewhere with a view now can. More people/better infrastructure in Gunnison, CO would be great. Maroon Bells getting a housing development and a golf course? Not so great. I'm worried that more people in small mountain towns near national forests has the potential to slowly eat away the national forest.

hosh 6y ago

I'm with you, that is how I feel. I have been working full-time remote since ... well, for most of my career. My wife and I decided to be in a major metropolitan area because of our kids and schools... but back before, we were living in more rural, mountain areas with a lot of access to outdoors. At some point, we're going to get a small trailer for my use as an office, or an office trailer. It's something I would want anyways. I think one good compromise with this is having a remote-first company pay for either a home office, or the membership fees for a coworking space. Some people really enjoy the interpersonal interaction. Me? I get enough of it via Slack and Zoom, and the occasional in-person conferences and on-sites. One of the positives I can see us moving towards is greater interpersonal interaction with the local neighbors, and greater mixed-use spaces like it used to be. You work from home some of the days, and then walk down the street for the coffee and bagals. You talk with the neighborhood grocers. You can hang out at the community gardens. You make your living with things that could be done remote, but there is a much better sense of community where you live. When you spend money, it would be within the local community, so it helps distribute the wealth to people who you live side by side. And ok, maybe if you don't like to cook, instead of using one of those apps to get some food from across town, you support your neighbors who love to cook. In other words, instead of bonding primarily with the people you work with, your main community is the one you live in. I think that's generally a good thing. There's a project called the Urban Farming Guys. They do a lot of hard work for developing food resilency, and transformed one of the worst neighborhoods in Kansas City into something that is great. Imagine living there, because you cared about the work they did. You work the remote job by day, and then walk over to their makerspace to teach the neighborhood kids about coding. When they ask for donations, you could spread some of the wealth from working with a remote tech job. You would have a choice to live with the people who share the same values that you do. Here's the thing. I think a lot of people feel that they will be disconnected from people if they work remote. But I think if they were able to choose where they live, they might find that they are even _more_ connected with the people they live with, in the neighborhood they live with. I think there is a modern malaise of disconnection and brokenness, and that won't really be solved without reconnecting to your local community. The interpersonal camaderie at work is an imperfect substitute for what I think most people crave without realizing they crave it.

6y ago

52-6F-62 6y ago

My own workplace is remaining remote for the time being. We moved out of our office prior to eventually maybe moving into one. We might not all be asked to move back in permanently. I had looked in the past for remote work for precisely the reasons you mentioned. On top of that my partner would love to move back to Vancouver Island for a spell. Also Toronto is bloody expensive. We've discussed all kinds of different options... but one of the core motivators would be affording a house, with some land. Being closer to family—mine or hers—and spending more time outdoors. Also not having to commute 1+ hour each way—yes, please.

partiallypro 6y ago

I love working fully remote, but in the past month my job has become my entire life. Maybe that's because I can't leave the house, but I do fear that could stick. With employers expecting employees to be available constantly. Even more so than now/5 months ago.

winrid 6y ago
Yeah, it was a real struggle for a while to just respond "No" to random 7pm or 8am meetings...

trianglem 6y ago

Hear hear! Work and what I consider “real” life are two completely different things for me.

diob 6y ago

I replied much the same to someone on twitter. They were complaining that their coworkers were good friends and they thought remote meant they would no longer have friends. No! You'll now be able to make friends outside of tech! Imagine being able to work from the diner, or a coffee shop, or a bookstore, or a another country entirely! You're going to be able to make friends with so many different people. It would be a wonderful thing for the world. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think it would go a long ways toward breaking humans out of the bubbles they tend to stay in. Maybe people would start to empathize and understand one another better.

daseiner1 6y ago
We live in a society experiencing a crisis of loneliness. Stripping away yet another built-in opportunity for in-person socialization and community building is going to make that worse, not better.
- banads 6y ago
  There are endless other "built-in opportunities" out there for socialization, and remote work gives the freedom to choose them for yourself rather than being forced into an arbitrary office for the majority of your life.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - hoten 6y ago
    Choosing is part of the issue, and at that point it is not longer "built-in". People make friends with those physically around on a regular basis–I can only think of three environments where making friends is "built-in": school, work, and church. You never have all three, but at least we always have just one. I get that all it takes is to find a meet up of like minded individuals that meet up regularly, but sometimes even that is hard to find.
    - 6y ago

biztos 6y ago

I'm working from home in just such a mountain town right now. If you're willing to go far enough up the mountain, real estate is still quite affordable. And I think you'd be welcomed if you actually live in a small town full-time (as opposed to keeping a vacation home) and get involved with the local community. Many of these places -- the ones just out of organic-grocery-store range -- have been losing population for decades. Of course, in California, you have to make your peace with living in the Red State within the Blue State, in case that's a thing for you.

deleted 6y ago
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cameronlpm 6y ago

I'm an outdoors enthusiast like yourself and feel similarly, but I would wager that the average tech employee is not an outdoorsman/adventurist/athlete, and might not have any hobbies at all aside from spending time with family, watching TV, playing video games, infinitely scrolling on their phones, etc. Also, a lot of these SF headquarters are really nice office spaces with all of the perks (free food mostly) versus the average home office. I have to imagine a lot of people enjoy their offices simply because it's nicer than the space they live in.

fossuser 6y ago
I only have a limited selection bias based on where I work, but it seems like there is disproportionately more athletes in these highly competitive companies in the bay area than I've seen elsewhere. This person was division I MIT crew, this person runs 200mi ultra-marathons, many coworkers have done an Ironman or two, many are cycling 100+mi/wk, many are running marathons or 10mi a day at sub six-minute pace. Where I grew up the number for any of these things would be zero, but here it feels common. I'd guess partly highly selective entry from top schools biases towards people that are also athletes, or that there's some positive correlation with competitive/ambitious people and making sure to exercise. I suspect the normal no-exercise indoorsy stereotype is actually wrong when compared to other people on average.
- sb52191 6y ago
  This is my experience as well, atleast among younger employees. Presumably the older employees that have kids don't have as much time for hobbies/passions like that.
- karatestomp 6y ago
  Fitness and being fit—especially the right fitness activities—has become a major status/class thing. Lots of articles about it over the last, oh, decade or so, which might pass for documentation of the phenomenon, plus what you can see if you've just been looking around and paying attention to trends, media, and marketing.

jedberg 6y ago

When I shifted to working from home I started exercising a lot less. My office had an onsite gym. I would go in early and start every day with exercise. I don't have all the equipment at home, so I only go to the gym once a week (well before lockdown, now I go 0 times but did end up getting some equipment). Also the food. The office had free healthy food. Now I have to make my own lunch, which is often cheap easy crap and late in the day. Also I miss socializing with adults that aren't my spouse. She's great and all, but we've already heard all of each other's stories. :) I very much value all the extra time I get to spend with my family, and I also value the fact that when we wanted to spend a week in the mountains I could just up and go and work from there. But there are definitely tradeoffs.

gnicholas 6y ago
As a founder who works from home, I noticed that some days my step count was under 1,000. That is terrible. I started going for walks (before it was covid-cool) most days. I try to take my calls while walking, and I find that my most creative ideas come while I'm walking.

hodgesrm 6y ago

I love the outdoors, so your comment really speaks to me. But speaking as someone who has worked remotely for the last 15+ years I'm skeptical that the model will become even close to dominant. * Not everyone is equally productive when working remotely. For a variety of reasons some people just work better in offices. * Mixed office/remote teams are unstable. People will be drawn to offices if only for career reasons, which makes it harder for the remote works, hence makes the office more attractive, etc. * Some jobs are just better done in person. Auto repair is not a remote job. Same for manufacturing. What I hope for is that companies will realize they don't need everyone to commute to the office every damn day. I freed up about 3 hours of transit time and reduced my annual carbon emissions by about a ton just by commuting one day less in the Bay Area. There's no reason why most white collar jobs can't work from home a couple of days a week. This would already be a huge improvement.

121789 6y ago
I think the reality is that you never get the best of both worlds. Companies will not spend on expensive real estate and amenities for people only in the office 2-3 days per week. Either there will have to be big sacrifices (open offices with no reserved desks/seating/equipment, like how consulting does this), or there will be no office offered at all.
cmdshiftf4 6y ago
>Not everyone is equally productive when working remotely. For a variety of reasons some people just work better in offices. It's probably a bit bleak to say, but those people will likely be replaced by others who are productive working remotely given the new, wider talent pool a fully remote company will have access to.
- solidasparagus 6y ago
  I don't understand this thinking that remote work will lead to hiring all over the world. I've worked on a bunch of teams split across timezones and I have never seen a team successfully function as a single team with more than a 3 hour timezone difference.

Greed 6y ago

I agree wholeheartedly, I've had the pleasure to work remotely for the majority of my career and it has been nothing but bliss to be able to focus on the living part of life and not just the working part of it. There's nothing I enjoy more than having deep technical talks with very smart people, but I'm not really interested in living within that tech bubble 100% of the time. How many times can you have the same conversation with someone complaining about <outdated software library> and being underpaid at <six figure salary>? It's amazing to me how few people in this industry have exposure to the world of experiences outside of the pinhole purview of techworld concerns. Going remote means you actually get to choose your day to day friends, experiences, social life, and culture instead of having them forced upon you! Craft your life the way you want to live it.

globular-toast 6y ago

> I've read a few of these work from home related articles here on HN and I have to say, I'm super surprised by how many people are both vehemently against the idea of remote and generally pessimistic for what it would mean for society. I can think of one big reason why HN readership is suddenly worried about the prospect of universal WFH: they realise that the supply in the labour market is going to suddenly double. No longer will companies be able to justify paying them huge amounts of money because people from all over the world are just as good and able to work for much less. Remember a lot of people here are now addicted to money. They don't much else in life besides that.

egman_ekki 6y ago

> Where are the cyclists, the surfers, the skiiers/snowboarders, dirt bikers, rock climbers, etc etc in these threads? I'd say they are out there riding bikes, skiing or climbing, not discussing WFH arrangements for the third time this week :D

ironman1478 6y ago

I don't really like working from home, primarily because I like the social aspect of a workplace and also because I have a very hard time separating work from home life. But if places transitioned to something like 3 days a week wfh, with the option to come in anyway but not the expectation. I'd totally love that because I do a lot of outdoors stuff too and I like sleeping in lol, which commuting prevents, but I don't need this everyday (though others might, especially those with kids). But I really think communication simply when not in person is sub par, but that could be a failing on my part or those in my company.

gofreddygo 6y ago

I see most negativity around WFH is from some form of fear. Competition. Some believe that once orgs and managers get comfortable with a fully remote team, whats to stop them from replacing or supplementing office-only team with a cheaper remote-first one. That increases employer options and shifts market power over to them. Work/life. Some like the hard separation between work and home. They are just not comfortable losing that wall. Social setup. Some are scared shitless when they realize they will lose their only social setup: office, and will have to start fresh and actually talk to people who don't share their view of the world. Family. For a lot of people, office is a convenient escape from family that does not get questioned. Take that out and it will drive them nuts to be around family all the time. Income. Some believe that more competition will lead to lower salaries lesser opportunities, forcing a move to a lower income area leading to lower income and that sounds bad.