13 ms·

The FBI tracking your browsing history without a warrant might be the beginning

252 points by nicedicerice 6y ago

Eagleflight 6y ago
This disrespect to our privacy has been going on for a while now, but it good to see that people still care about it and are trying to inform us. Hopefully our privacy respecting products outside the jurisdiction of USA will not bend over to the FBI.
maxminder 6y ago
Awesome, now its official...you just plugin and you are doomed...
- j0n_5liver 6y ago
  Yeahhhh!!!! DOOM!!!!! Im gonna sing the doom song now, doom Dooom doom doom doom DOOM! Do Do Doom, Do do doom doom DOOOOOOMMM!!! DO DO DO DOOOM!!!!! THE END!
aiscapehumanity 6y ago
Obfuscation tech (out-of-country) based proxy/vpn along with tor is a must.
- programmarchy 6y ago
  Encrypted P2P web helps here (e.g. Beaker Browser / Hyperdrive, IPFS, Filecoin, etc.) Adding tor could provide anonymity between peers.
morganaWHITE 6y ago
looks like governments really enjoy stripping us of our liberties once our attention is directed somewhere else - be it terrorist attacks or global pandemics. we shouldn't lose sight of what's important to us or else the people in power will take it away!
badrabbit 6y ago
Will this give them permissiom to sift through data collected over the years (as I understand it isn't a mere extension of PATRIOT?). After this and EARN IT, I guess banning VPNs and requiring app/device backdoors legally is next? Can you guys believe this, it's like somene turned the tables ,this stuff normally happens after a legitimate gov. is overthrown by the CIA. They do this to hold on to power. My opinion: hen they require using real name/ID online, it's game over, it becomes metastatic. I wish fellow Americans knew to be scared of war and social collapse. This is what America's enemies want.
brenden2 6y ago
Firefox (or OSs) should add a feature that randomly makes requests to a bunch of unrelated websites just to mess up their data collection and render it useless. This can only work if it's widely deployed.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  Authorities will either look at the source code, compel the authors to explain how it works, push their own changes for the code in question, or just empirically monitor the random behavior and build models to filter such noise.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Why do you even bother answering if we're so screwed. I guess you enjoy failure. Don't even bother fighting back, just knuckle under. Makes for an easy life.
  - CyanBird 6y ago
    This is not a matter of "fix everything pill" tho, but a fight where we have to erode and degrade their capabilities, this is an arms race, you don't just stop fighting because the other side has got better weapons and systems, you develop your own gorilla capabilities
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  TrackMeNot does this https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/ I have used it for years.
Jah6Aihe 6y ago
Here is what I do myself to avoid surveillance culture, in case anyone find it useful. 1. I always use local apps rather than webservices if possible. I use only free software, built from source, to be sure there's no tracker in it (I would love to find a way to whitelist which apps can access the network, but I haven't found a way for that yet). There's almost always a way to perform a task locally. 2. I have a copy of wikipedia, using kiwix (through kiwix-serve). My default search engine is my local wikipedia's one. It's insane the amount of answers you can get to common questions simply with a local copy of wikipedia 3. I always install documentation for the libraries I download. I have `go doc` running locally, always install ruby gems with ri and rdoc, set the gentoo's `doc` use flag to have C libraries documentation locally. Most of the time, there's just no need to go to the web for API documentation. 4. I made myself a rss client similar to rss2mail that will fetch rss feeds and mail items to me. When sending a mail, the rss client makes a http request to the full article url and add it to the mail as attachment. Then I read my content in mutt, having lynx dumping the html content as plain text (through `lynx -dump`). So I read all the content offline, and nobody can tell what I read. I have my own smtp server so that I disclose the least information possible. 5. when I have to use the web, this is first through a text browser through tor (I use a modified version of elinks, but I guess lynx would do just as well). This makes sure I only download the html page I want to look at, while running the least possible tracking stuff. 6. when it's not enough, I have a chromium build, in which I have disabled javascript and images by default. I use chromium rather than firefox because it allows me to load extensions from sources. I have such extensions to enable javascript and images if needed, but this is the ultimate recourse. 7. I use my own local dns resolver. I don't know why people don't do that more, it's actually really simple. bind9 resolver works out of the box, you just install bind9, change /etc/resolv.conf to point to 127.0.0.1, and that's it. 8. if I post online (like now), I make a different account every time I post, using always a different email address. This allows to prevent profiling from public posts. 9. and of course, I'm actively researching everything related to the p2p web, like dat, ssb and cabal. So basically, I took the red pill.
- fsflover 6y ago
  I wonder which OS you are using. I would definitely recommend Qubes OS from what you wrote.
BLKNSLVR 6y ago
So the US, with its Constitution protecting the people from its Government, is allowing this whilst also considering Edward Snowden a traitor? It seems something has shifted 180 degrees since WW2, and the US Government has quietly won the game where the goal was to shit on the entirety of the history upon which it was built whilst, at precisely the same time, pointing to the Constitution as the reason why "America is Great!" You're fucked. At least China isn't pretending to be free. If this is how law enforcement agencies are allowed to operate, how can you expect citizens to respect any rule of law? The precedents are evaporating. The West is dead, we're halfway through the transition to the next stage, which just means history will repeat itself - but will be recorded in higher definition so that maybe we'll learn it more thoroughly next time around.
- ravenstine 6y ago
  America has been over for a very long time. I know I'll get downvoted for saying this, but this is something that more people need to hear because the fact they can vote affords citizens the cognitive dissonance they need to believe the propaganda they were taught about the US federal government. I'd still choose America over China any day, but that doesn't mean I think the United States is a free country; it's a free-range farm.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    "America has been over" is a statement that needs qualifiers to have meaning. "America" means different things to different people.
    - ravenstine 6y ago
      It does mean different things to different people, but there's a relatively common understanding of "America" as an idea. Interpretations of America generally have a lot of overlap, even if there's some difference. Our rights are pretty much a central pillar of the concept of America, and if they aren't inalienable or taken seriously, then America is fundamentally lost. Even if people have a different idea of what America is, that doesn't mean their interpretation is congruent with an objective viewpoint of America, especially if their idea is prescriptive.
LarryDarrell 6y ago
I can't even imagine how muted the Civil Rights era would have been had the FBI had this power back then.
- ta1234567890 6y ago
  You don't even need to imagine it, that's the reality we are living in right now.
  - monadic2 6y ago
    Seriously. The FBI was watching Black Lives Matter activists for a while as “black identity extremists.” For merely saying “black lives matter” in the street.
    - duxup 6y ago
      Similar things were happening during the Civil Rights era.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_lette... Let's not pretend that things are materially worse than they were back then. We certainly aren't blackmailing civil rights leaders into suicide anymore within the FBI.
  - eiji 6y ago
    No. We just try to jail them or their children. E.g. Michael Flynn.
    - maerF0x0 6y ago
      You're being downvoted. Can you please explain what you mean, how it relates and link to sources?
  - 6y ago
programmarchy 6y ago
If this is true, the silver lining is that it could become an albatross around the Patriot Act; spying on browser history is not a defensible means of preventing terrorism without absurd arguments. But hold up. Has anyone read the bill? I haven't read the full text of the bill, but reading the summary [1], parts of the bill actually sound positive to me: > The Federal Bureau of Investigation may not seek certain FISA-authorized orders to obtain (1) call detail records on an ongoing basis, (2) a tangible thing where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would typically be required, or (3) cellular or GPS location information. > In applications for certain FISA-authorized orders to obtain information or conduct surveillance, the applicant must certify that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has received any information that might raise doubts about the application. The bill imposes additional requirements on FISA-authorized orders targeting a (1) U.S. person, or (2) federal elected official or candidate. > The bill increases criminal penalties for violations related to electronic surveillance conducted under color of law or false statements made to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA court). > The bill broadens the criteria for when a FISA court decision shall be declassified and requires the declassification review and release of such opinions within 180 days of an opinion being issued. > The bill broadens the FISA court's authority to appoint an amicus curiae (an outside party that assists in consideration of a case) and expands such amici's powers, such as the power to ask the court to review a decision. > Each agency that submits applications to the FISA court shall appoint an officer responsible for compliance with FISA requirements. Looking at the full text of the bill, I can't find where there is authorization for tracking browser history without a warrant. Can anyone pinpoint that in the actual text of the bill? [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172
- Zecar 6y ago
  It's because the amendment was never to authorize spying on browser history, it was an amendment to BLOCK it which was voted down for being a distraction and potentially limit FISA spying in other ways.
- eximius 6y ago
  From memory of articles surrounding this, it was the failure to add a provision preventing warrantless tracking that was scandalous. It is unclear to me if that implies some court decision that allows it without that preventative measure.
12xo 6y ago
Dont worry. People will get very upset on Facebook and Twitter. All while they'll install a new app without reading what it does or who its from...
Spellman 6y ago
Note that this isn't new. This has been going on since the PATRIOT act + FISA was in place. The only news is that a recent amendment to curtail this power failed in the Senate 59-37.
lern_too_spel 6y ago
From the article: "law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and CIA can continue to look through the browsing history of American citizens without the need for a warrant." There is no evidence that they have been doing this. The objection to Section 215 is that a FISA court could in theory say that they can, not that they are already doing this. It then links to an article about an amendment providing additional oversight that mischaracterizes it as providing additional surveillance powers (there are no additional surveillance powers in that amendment) that can be politically abused. In short, it's a sensationalist article from a blog with no editorial standards.
- JoeSmithson 6y ago
  Why is this downvoted? The article is so light on details it's difficult to read. Can someone provide a substantiation of the headline in concrete technical terms?
dorkandstormy 6y ago
The scary takeaway here, in my opinion, is the draconian measures the US is expanding while everyone is too busy worrying about COVID-19 to notice. The very tactics that "taking the red pill" support. The NYT does it some justice with extensive background information—which the author of this article, it seems, doesn't consider. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesla-red-pill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesl...
dorkandstormy 6y ago
The scary takeaway here is the draconian measures the US is expanding while everyone is too busy worrying about COVID-19 to notice. The very same tactics that "taking the red pill" support. The NYT examines that misguided tweet with extensive background information (which the author of this article, it seems, doesn't consider). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesla-red-pill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesl... He also apparently considers shutting down digital public services in one of the most hard-hit metropolitan areas with dick picks and memes as "hope."
duxup 6y ago
I don't buy into the end times doom and gloom here, some of it downright hysterical. I do think there are serious issues and the scale of government reach into our lives has expanded dramatically with technology. I hope we see a sort of eventual awakening to what the scale of potential abuse is and we see more rights extended into the long neglected digital space. The law moves slow (too slow in this case) and it is time it picks up the slack. But rather than throw a fit I would recommend folks look to join / help organizations like the EFF (https://www.eff.org/ https://www.eff.org/) and so forth.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  There are serious issues with the scale of everyone's reach into everyone's lives, thanks to the location-destroying effect of modern bidirectional peer-to-peer anonymously-routed communications technology. The government, like everyone else, from corporations to individuals, is trying to keep up and to figure out what it all means.
ethagnawl 6y ago
Despite the tenuous connection to freedom/enlightenment/whatever that this article tries to make and what Grimes will (probably) try to tell the world, Elon Musk was (almost certainly) referring to something very specific and wholly unrelated when he tweeted that.
specialagent 6y ago
At one point in time, we used to universally celebrate people like Professor John Raines, who broke into FBI offices to steal documents related to COINTELPRO. He 'evaded capture' and was an American hero. [0] Yesterday, Judicial Watch published the DoJ's release of the electronic communication from 7/31/2016, where FBI agent Peter Strzok opened Crossfire Hurricane. [1, 2] Despite the magnanimity of the disclosure, there's very little press coverage of the document that began the investigation of the President and subsequently, the former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency who happened to be in a personal feud with the outgoing President. To be clear, Gen. Flynn should be criticized for certain actions but all of Washington D.C. participates in them (e.g. technology transfers to authoritarian countries, consulting, lobbying). I'm biased against the FBI because I saw how "special agents" and US Attorneys treated my friends in the 90s. Curious minded, non-malicious teenagers (!!) had their lives destroyed by aggressive, unethical and unintelligent FBI agents. I'll never accept nor forgive the tactics used by FBI agents, prosecutors and the federal courts against teenage kids. We have all become targeted by tactics created for the Mafia and international terrorists -- it's been normalized. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/obituaries/john-raines-84-who-evaded-capture-in-an-fbi-break-in-dies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/obituaries/john-raines-84... [1] https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/JW-v-DOJ-reply-02743.pdf https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/JW-... [2] https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/declassification-spyoperation https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/declassificatio...
- JoeSmithson 6y ago
  I have only skim read the linked documents but what aspect specifically do you feel is being under-reported?
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  In what way should the magnanimity of a disclosure affect it's coverage? What does it mean for a disclosure to be generous?
tenebrisalietum 6y ago
> law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and CIA can continue to look through the browsing history of American citizens without the need for a warrant. I'm always curious what the heck does this mean exactly. - Do they seize your computer and literally copy the browser history from any/all installed browsers? - Do they ask your ISP to pipe DNS requests from your IP to them? - Do they wiretap your line or cellular connection and basically do a `tshark $SUSPECT_WAN_IFACE | grep HTTP > browsing-history.txt`? - Is this really a request to Google or other FAANG company for activity history on those platforms? What does "look through browsing history" even mean?
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  In the case of the laws discussed in this article, the FBI can gain access to the logs of one's ISP (or VPN provider) without a warrant. So they can trace a suspect's TCP traffic without any duty to notify anyone they're doing so.
  - xenospn 6y ago
    I'm wondering how that helps them out, exactly? All they see is HTTPS requests to iMessage/Reddit/HN or WhatsApp. They can't look inside the actual payload.
    - kibblesalad 6y ago
      https://www.zdnet.com/article/legal-loopholes-unrestrained-nsa-surveillance-on-americans/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/legal-loopholes-unrestrained-n...
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        That doesn't address GP's point. You can redirect encrypted traffic all you want. That won't help you read its content.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
    That's my reading of it, too. If there are no logs, though the FBI can't get access. [1][2] Disclaimer: I work for Private Internet Access. [1]https://torrentfreak.com/private-internet-access-no-logging-claims-proven-true-again-in-court-180606/ https://torrentfreak.com/private-internet-access-no-logging-... [2] https://www.technadu.com/private-internet-access-wins-against-fbi/30987/ https://www.technadu.com/private-internet-access-wins-agains...
caribousoup 6y ago
Isn't it common to assume that everything connected to the internet is illegally monitored, recorded, and exploited to the fullest extent? After Snowden, how could anyone not be aware of this? You see the director of the NSA blatantly, and provably, lying under oath. Multiple whistleblowers saying this stuff has been going on for almost two decades. These agencies operate outside of the law already... regardless of what any legislation states they are, or are not, allowed to do. Isn't this already obvious? Not in a conspiratorial paranoid sort of way, but I mean, just look at the world pragmatically. Maybe I lost all faith years ago, but this is not surprising to me in the least. All you can really do is look out for yourself, if you have the technical know-how, and understand what to avoid doing. In an ideal world you don't solve problems like this, you solve them through public policy, not technological workarounds. But we don't live in an ideal world... most of the public is unequipped to discuss the gradual, invisible, insidious undermining of their civil liberties through ever-present opaque technologies.
winslow 6y ago
It's clear that the government(s) haven't had people's interest for quite a while now. It's nice for us to vote and protest but we need to take things into our own hands as those forms have yielded little results. We need to build things and use software that are privacy first. Such as: DuckDuckGo Firefox Signal (actually secure messaging unlike whatsApp) Linux OS TOR Librem 5, is a great open sourced secure phone example What are some additional things we should be building or looking to build?
- vanusa 6y ago
  Many upvotes on this, please. Political and moral aspects aside - the sooner we can start reasonably and effectively counteracting this stuff (if only on an individual basis, to start) - the better. BTW the sister comment to this one also seems helpful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259653
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  Sneakernet P2p internet
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  Brave ? https://brave.com/ https://brave.com/ (I'm asking, not endorsing)
  - winslow 6y ago
    Thanks for sharing. First I've heard of this company. It's definitely an interesting position as they look to be providing the browser (viewer) as well as the ad platform. It's unclear if they are hiding/replacing website ads with their own and how the websites are getting their revenue otherwise.
    - 6y ago
spacephysics 6y ago
The only way to combat this is to continue researching methods of securing data before transit, through cryptography (until that too, is outlawed), and researching communication schemes that obfuscate the meta data/sender-receiver. What about Tor? Tor’s known to be compromised by the NSA, (as well as much of the internet backbone) so it’ll be interesting if such research comes to fruition soon-ish. Politically we can try electing officials and such, but it seems even the most promising candidates are too tempted by lobbying groups’ deep pockets. Hopefully emerging decentralized tech will enable us to more easily hide our tracks, since even with end to end encryption, they can still get the meta data and track where you’ve been. (I understand being decentralized doesn’t necessarily mean the data in transit can’t be traced, but I think we need a decentralized system before we can realistically work on the aforementioned problem)
trfhuhg 6y ago
This is fine. Humanity has been descending into materialism to develop intelligence for long time and is now crossing the midpoint. That's why there are so many "ends justify the means" types around us. Soon the humanity will start ascending back to finish the cycle and all those sociopaths will be gone.
- maerF0x0 6y ago
  I find your comment quite interesting, do you mind expanding on the "to develop intelligence" and the "finish the cycle" parts?

252 points by nicedicerice 6y ago

This disrespect to our privacy has been going on for a while now, but it good to see that people still care about it and are trying to inform us. Hopefully our privacy respecting products outside the jurisdiction of USA will not bend over to the FBI.

maxminder 6y ago

Awesome, now its official...you just plugin and you are doomed...

j0n_5liver 6y ago
Yeahhhh!!!! DOOM!!!!! Im gonna sing the doom song now, doom Dooom doom doom doom DOOM! Do Do Doom, Do do doom doom DOOOOOOMMM!!! DO DO DO DOOOM!!!!! THE END!

aiscapehumanity 6y ago

Obfuscation tech (out-of-country) based proxy/vpn along with tor is a must.

programmarchy 6y ago
Encrypted P2P web helps here (e.g. Beaker Browser / Hyperdrive, IPFS, Filecoin, etc.) Adding tor could provide anonymity between peers.

morganaWHITE 6y ago

looks like governments really enjoy stripping us of our liberties once our attention is directed somewhere else - be it terrorist attacks or global pandemics. we shouldn't lose sight of what's important to us or else the people in power will take it away!

badrabbit 6y ago

Will this give them permissiom to sift through data collected over the years (as I understand it isn't a mere extension of PATRIOT?). After this and EARN IT, I guess banning VPNs and requiring app/device backdoors legally is next? Can you guys believe this, it's like somene turned the tables ,this stuff normally happens after a legitimate gov. is overthrown by the CIA. They do this to hold on to power. My opinion: hen they require using real name/ID online, it's game over, it becomes metastatic. I wish fellow Americans knew to be scared of war and social collapse. This is what America's enemies want.

brenden2 6y ago

Firefox (or OSs) should add a feature that randomly makes requests to a bunch of unrelated websites just to mess up their data collection and render it useless. This can only work if it's widely deployed.

mywittyname 6y ago
Authorities will either look at the source code, compel the authors to explain how it works, push their own changes for the code in question, or just empirically monitor the random behavior and build models to filter such noise.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  Why do you even bother answering if we're so screwed. I guess you enjoy failure. Don't even bother fighting back, just knuckle under. Makes for an easy life.
- CyanBird 6y ago
  This is not a matter of "fix everything pill" tho, but a fight where we have to erode and degrade their capabilities, this is an arms race, you don't just stop fighting because the other side has got better weapons and systems, you develop your own gorilla capabilities
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
TrackMeNot does this https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/ I have used it for years.

Jah6Aihe 6y ago

Here is what I do myself to avoid surveillance culture, in case anyone find it useful. 1. I always use local apps rather than webservices if possible. I use only free software, built from source, to be sure there's no tracker in it (I would love to find a way to whitelist which apps can access the network, but I haven't found a way for that yet). There's almost always a way to perform a task locally. 2. I have a copy of wikipedia, using kiwix (through kiwix-serve). My default search engine is my local wikipedia's one. It's insane the amount of answers you can get to common questions simply with a local copy of wikipedia 3. I always install documentation for the libraries I download. I have `go doc` running locally, always install ruby gems with ri and rdoc, set the gentoo's `doc` use flag to have C libraries documentation locally. Most of the time, there's just no need to go to the web for API documentation. 4. I made myself a rss client similar to rss2mail that will fetch rss feeds and mail items to me. When sending a mail, the rss client makes a http request to the full article url and add it to the mail as attachment. Then I read my content in mutt, having lynx dumping the html content as plain text (through `lynx -dump`). So I read all the content offline, and nobody can tell what I read. I have my own smtp server so that I disclose the least information possible. 5. when I have to use the web, this is first through a text browser through tor (I use a modified version of elinks, but I guess lynx would do just as well). This makes sure I only download the html page I want to look at, while running the least possible tracking stuff. 6. when it's not enough, I have a chromium build, in which I have disabled javascript and images by default. I use chromium rather than firefox because it allows me to load extensions from sources. I have such extensions to enable javascript and images if needed, but this is the ultimate recourse. 7. I use my own local dns resolver. I don't know why people don't do that more, it's actually really simple. bind9 resolver works out of the box, you just install bind9, change /etc/resolv.conf to point to 127.0.0.1, and that's it. 8. if I post online (like now), I make a different account every time I post, using always a different email address. This allows to prevent profiling from public posts. 9. and of course, I'm actively researching everything related to the p2p web, like dat, ssb and cabal. So basically, I took the red pill.

fsflover 6y ago
I wonder which OS you are using. I would definitely recommend Qubes OS from what you wrote.

BLKNSLVR 6y ago

So the US, with its Constitution protecting the people from its Government, is allowing this whilst also considering Edward Snowden a traitor? It seems something has shifted 180 degrees since WW2, and the US Government has quietly won the game where the goal was to shit on the entirety of the history upon which it was built whilst, at precisely the same time, pointing to the Constitution as the reason why "America is Great!" You're fucked. At least China isn't pretending to be free. If this is how law enforcement agencies are allowed to operate, how can you expect citizens to respect any rule of law? The precedents are evaporating. The West is dead, we're halfway through the transition to the next stage, which just means history will repeat itself - but will be recorded in higher definition so that maybe we'll learn it more thoroughly next time around.

ravenstine 6y ago
America has been over for a very long time. I know I'll get downvoted for saying this, but this is something that more people need to hear because the fact they can vote affords citizens the cognitive dissonance they need to believe the propaganda they were taught about the US federal government. I'd still choose America over China any day, but that doesn't mean I think the United States is a free country; it's a free-range farm.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  "America has been over" is a statement that needs qualifiers to have meaning. "America" means different things to different people.
  - ravenstine 6y ago
    It does mean different things to different people, but there's a relatively common understanding of "America" as an idea. Interpretations of America generally have a lot of overlap, even if there's some difference. Our rights are pretty much a central pillar of the concept of America, and if they aren't inalienable or taken seriously, then America is fundamentally lost. Even if people have a different idea of what America is, that doesn't mean their interpretation is congruent with an objective viewpoint of America, especially if their idea is prescriptive.

LarryDarrell 6y ago

I can't even imagine how muted the Civil Rights era would have been had the FBI had this power back then.

ta1234567890 6y ago
You don't even need to imagine it, that's the reality we are living in right now.
- monadic2 6y ago
  Seriously. The FBI was watching Black Lives Matter activists for a while as “black identity extremists.” For merely saying “black lives matter” in the street.
  - duxup 6y ago
    Similar things were happening during the Civil Rights era.
jimbob45 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_letter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_lette... Let's not pretend that things are materially worse than they were back then. We certainly aren't blackmailing civil rights leaders into suicide anymore within the FBI.
- eiji 6y ago
  No. We just try to jail them or their children. E.g. Michael Flynn.
  - maerF0x0 6y ago
    You're being downvoted. Can you please explain what you mean, how it relates and link to sources?
- 6y ago

programmarchy 6y ago

If this is true, the silver lining is that it could become an albatross around the Patriot Act; spying on browser history is not a defensible means of preventing terrorism without absurd arguments. But hold up. Has anyone read the bill? I haven't read the full text of the bill, but reading the summary [1], parts of the bill actually sound positive to me: > The Federal Bureau of Investigation may not seek certain FISA-authorized orders to obtain (1) call detail records on an ongoing basis, (2) a tangible thing where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant would typically be required, or (3) cellular or GPS location information. > In applications for certain FISA-authorized orders to obtain information or conduct surveillance, the applicant must certify that the Department of Justice (DOJ) has received any information that might raise doubts about the application. The bill imposes additional requirements on FISA-authorized orders targeting a (1) U.S. person, or (2) federal elected official or candidate. > The bill increases criminal penalties for violations related to electronic surveillance conducted under color of law or false statements made to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA court). > The bill broadens the criteria for when a FISA court decision shall be declassified and requires the declassification review and release of such opinions within 180 days of an opinion being issued. > The bill broadens the FISA court's authority to appoint an amicus curiae (an outside party that assists in consideration of a case) and expands such amici's powers, such as the power to ask the court to review a decision. > Each agency that submits applications to the FISA court shall appoint an officer responsible for compliance with FISA requirements. Looking at the full text of the bill, I can't find where there is authorization for tracking browser history without a warrant. Can anyone pinpoint that in the actual text of the bill? [1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6172

Zecar 6y ago
It's because the amendment was never to authorize spying on browser history, it was an amendment to BLOCK it which was voted down for being a distraction and potentially limit FISA spying in other ways.
eximius 6y ago
From memory of articles surrounding this, it was the failure to add a provision preventing warrantless tracking that was scandalous. It is unclear to me if that implies some court decision that allows it without that preventative measure.

12xo 6y ago

Dont worry. People will get very upset on Facebook and Twitter. All while they'll install a new app without reading what it does or who its from...

Spellman 6y ago

Note that this isn't new. This has been going on since the PATRIOT act + FISA was in place. The only news is that a recent amendment to curtail this power failed in the Senate 59-37.

lern_too_spel 6y ago

From the article: "law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and CIA can continue to look through the browsing history of American citizens without the need for a warrant." There is no evidence that they have been doing this. The objection to Section 215 is that a FISA court could in theory say that they can, not that they are already doing this. It then links to an article about an amendment providing additional oversight that mischaracterizes it as providing additional surveillance powers (there are no additional surveillance powers in that amendment) that can be politically abused. In short, it's a sensationalist article from a blog with no editorial standards.

JoeSmithson 6y ago
Why is this downvoted? The article is so light on details it's difficult to read. Can someone provide a substantiation of the headline in concrete technical terms?

dorkandstormy 6y ago

The scary takeaway here, in my opinion, is the draconian measures the US is expanding while everyone is too busy worrying about COVID-19 to notice. The very tactics that "taking the red pill" support. The NYT does it some justice with extensive background information—which the author of this article, it seems, doesn't consider. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesla-red-pill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesl...

dorkandstormy 6y ago

The scary takeaway here is the draconian measures the US is expanding while everyone is too busy worrying about COVID-19 to notice. The very same tactics that "taking the red pill" support. The NYT examines that misguided tweet with extensive background information (which the author of this article, it seems, doesn't consider). https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesla-red-pill.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/19/technology/elon-musk-tesl... He also apparently considers shutting down digital public services in one of the most hard-hit metropolitan areas with dick picks and memes as "hope."

duxup 6y ago

I don't buy into the end times doom and gloom here, some of it downright hysterical. I do think there are serious issues and the scale of government reach into our lives has expanded dramatically with technology. I hope we see a sort of eventual awakening to what the scale of potential abuse is and we see more rights extended into the long neglected digital space. The law moves slow (too slow in this case) and it is time it picks up the slack. But rather than throw a fit I would recommend folks look to join / help organizations like the EFF (https://www.eff.org/ https://www.eff.org/) and so forth.

shadowgovt 6y ago
There are serious issues with the scale of everyone's reach into everyone's lives, thanks to the location-destroying effect of modern bidirectional peer-to-peer anonymously-routed communications technology. The government, like everyone else, from corporations to individuals, is trying to keep up and to figure out what it all means.

ethagnawl 6y ago

Despite the tenuous connection to freedom/enlightenment/whatever that this article tries to make and what Grimes will (probably) try to tell the world, Elon Musk was (almost certainly) referring to something very specific and wholly unrelated when he tweeted that.

specialagent 6y ago

At one point in time, we used to universally celebrate people like Professor John Raines, who broke into FBI offices to steal documents related to COINTELPRO. He 'evaded capture' and was an American hero. [0] Yesterday, Judicial Watch published the DoJ's release of the electronic communication from 7/31/2016, where FBI agent Peter Strzok opened Crossfire Hurricane. [1, 2] Despite the magnanimity of the disclosure, there's very little press coverage of the document that began the investigation of the President and subsequently, the former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency who happened to be in a personal feud with the outgoing President. To be clear, Gen. Flynn should be criticized for certain actions but all of Washington D.C. participates in them (e.g. technology transfers to authoritarian countries, consulting, lobbying). I'm biased against the FBI because I saw how "special agents" and US Attorneys treated my friends in the 90s. Curious minded, non-malicious teenagers (!!) had their lives destroyed by aggressive, unethical and unintelligent FBI agents. I'll never accept nor forgive the tactics used by FBI agents, prosecutors and the federal courts against teenage kids. We have all become targeted by tactics created for the Mafia and international terrorists -- it's been normalized. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/obituaries/john-raines-84-who-evaded-capture-in-an-fbi-break-in-dies.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/17/obituaries/john-raines-84... [1] https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/JW-v-DOJ-reply-02743.pdf https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/JW-... [2] https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/declassification-spyoperation https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/declassificatio...

JoeSmithson 6y ago
I have only skim read the linked documents but what aspect specifically do you feel is being under-reported?
lern_too_spel 6y ago
In what way should the magnanimity of a disclosure affect it's coverage? What does it mean for a disclosure to be generous?

tenebrisalietum 6y ago

> law enforcement agencies such as the FBI and CIA can continue to look through the browsing history of American citizens without the need for a warrant. I'm always curious what the heck does this mean exactly. - Do they seize your computer and literally copy the browser history from any/all installed browsers? - Do they ask your ISP to pipe DNS requests from your IP to them? - Do they wiretap your line or cellular connection and basically do a `tshark $SUSPECT_WAN_IFACE | grep HTTP > browsing-history.txt`? - Is this really a request to Google or other FAANG company for activity history on those platforms? What does "look through browsing history" even mean?

shadowgovt 6y ago
In the case of the laws discussed in this article, the FBI can gain access to the logs of one's ISP (or VPN provider) without a warrant. So they can trace a suspect's TCP traffic without any duty to notify anyone they're doing so.
- xenospn 6y ago
  I'm wondering how that helps them out, exactly? All they see is HTTPS requests to iMessage/Reddit/HN or WhatsApp. They can't look inside the actual payload.
  - kibblesalad 6y ago
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/legal-loopholes-unrestrained-nsa-surveillance-on-americans/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/legal-loopholes-unrestrained-n...
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      That doesn't address GP's point. You can redirect encrypted traffic all you want. That won't help you read its content.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
  That's my reading of it, too. If there are no logs, though the FBI can't get access. [1][2] Disclaimer: I work for Private Internet Access. [1]https://torrentfreak.com/private-internet-access-no-logging-claims-proven-true-again-in-court-180606/ https://torrentfreak.com/private-internet-access-no-logging-... [2] https://www.technadu.com/private-internet-access-wins-against-fbi/30987/ https://www.technadu.com/private-internet-access-wins-agains...

caribousoup 6y ago

Isn't it common to assume that everything connected to the internet is illegally monitored, recorded, and exploited to the fullest extent? After Snowden, how could anyone not be aware of this? You see the director of the NSA blatantly, and provably, lying under oath. Multiple whistleblowers saying this stuff has been going on for almost two decades. These agencies operate outside of the law already... regardless of what any legislation states they are, or are not, allowed to do. Isn't this already obvious? Not in a conspiratorial paranoid sort of way, but I mean, just look at the world pragmatically. Maybe I lost all faith years ago, but this is not surprising to me in the least. All you can really do is look out for yourself, if you have the technical know-how, and understand what to avoid doing. In an ideal world you don't solve problems like this, you solve them through public policy, not technological workarounds. But we don't live in an ideal world... most of the public is unequipped to discuss the gradual, invisible, insidious undermining of their civil liberties through ever-present opaque technologies.

winslow 6y ago

It's clear that the government(s) haven't had people's interest for quite a while now. It's nice for us to vote and protest but we need to take things into our own hands as those forms have yielded little results. We need to build things and use software that are privacy first. Such as: DuckDuckGo Firefox Signal (actually secure messaging unlike whatsApp) Linux OS TOR Librem 5, is a great open sourced secure phone example What are some additional things we should be building or looking to build?

vanusa 6y ago
Many upvotes on this, please. Political and moral aspects aside - the sooner we can start reasonably and effectively counteracting this stuff (if only on an individual basis, to start) - the better. BTW the sister comment to this one also seems helpful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23259653
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
Sneakernet P2p internet
maerF0x0 6y ago
Brave ? https://brave.com/ https://brave.com/ (I'm asking, not endorsing)
- winslow 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing. First I've heard of this company. It's definitely an interesting position as they look to be providing the browser (viewer) as well as the ad platform. It's unclear if they are hiding/replacing website ads with their own and how the websites are getting their revenue otherwise.
  - 6y ago

spacephysics 6y ago

The only way to combat this is to continue researching methods of securing data before transit, through cryptography (until that too, is outlawed), and researching communication schemes that obfuscate the meta data/sender-receiver. What about Tor? Tor’s known to be compromised by the NSA, (as well as much of the internet backbone) so it’ll be interesting if such research comes to fruition soon-ish. Politically we can try electing officials and such, but it seems even the most promising candidates are too tempted by lobbying groups’ deep pockets. Hopefully emerging decentralized tech will enable us to more easily hide our tracks, since even with end to end encryption, they can still get the meta data and track where you’ve been. (I understand being decentralized doesn’t necessarily mean the data in transit can’t be traced, but I think we need a decentralized system before we can realistically work on the aforementioned problem)

trfhuhg 6y ago

This is fine. Humanity has been descending into materialism to develop intelligence for long time and is now crossing the midpoint. That's why there are so many "ends justify the means" types around us. Soon the humanity will start ascending back to finish the cycle and all those sociopaths will be gone.

maerF0x0 6y ago
I find your comment quite interesting, do you mind expanding on the "to develop intelligence" and the "finish the cycle" parts?