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Contrast Jordan's greatness and being an asshole with Lebron James's greatness and being a nice guy. Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Le

Contrast Jordan's greatness and being an asshole with Lebron James's greatness and being a nice guy. Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6) but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score [1] . Also Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more? Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.) Sure Lebron is demanding and has extremely high standards, but there are different ways to influence greatness from your teammates other than being an extreme asshole. [1] - https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-says-he-and-michael-jordan-wouldve-been-ideal-teammates-my-assets-work-perfectly-with-mike/ https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-says-he-and-... [2] - https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-50-players https://www.nba.com/history/nba-at-50/top-50-players

adventured 6y ago
> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6) Your sure statement is quite the qualification. Three versus six rings is an enormous difference in the NBA. That's a Larry Bird of a difference. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin and Dominique Wilkins won zero rings. > but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score Jordan's average was 5.3 assists per game (as a shooting guard, emphasis). That's good enough for #29 in the NBA this season and #28 last season. He was winning scoring titles while simultaneously out-competing some starting point guards when it came to assists. Jordan ranks #45 all-time in assists, in 14 equivalent full seasons, ahead of a large list of point guards. He averaged 8 assists and 32.5 points in the same season in 1989, during the height of his scoring capabilities. 8 assists per game is good enough for #5 this season (for those that don't know basketball well, that's typically elite point guard territory). Lebron is #4 all-time in points per game. Your argument is pretty amusing to make given the numbers. He wants to see his teammates score vs himself? He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season. Lebron's scoring average per game is 27.1, Jordan's was 30.1. Lebron has averaged 20 shots per game, Jordan averaged 23. Your premise is plainly false, the gulf between them on scoring behavior is simply not that great. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant won championships with Jordan and became renowned players - with Pippen being named to the all-time 50 list - precisely because Jordan had no problem with them scoring as well. The scoring label was only partially true in the early years of Jordan's career where he was on a very mediocre Bulls team and attempted to do too much of the scoring out of necessity. Lebron averaged 31.4 points and took 23 shots per game, with 6.6 assists, his third season in the league as a reference. Lebron clearly wasn't lacking in aggressive scoring behavior in his early years either.
- subpixel 6y ago
  And yet, you score a few extra points just by not being an asshole.
- tech-historian 6y ago
  Jordan was blessed with having the greatest NBA coach of all time to guide his team. After coaching Jordan to 6 titles, Phil Jackson went on to win another 5 with the Lakers. Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. That's one reason the comparison is so difficult between the two.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    > Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. LeBron has been hand-picking his whole team for a decade now. If he was unable to find a decent coach, which is not subject to the same restrictions as stacking the team with all-star players, then that shortcoming is also entirely on LeBron. And Phil Jackson's championships were on team's featuring arguably three of the greatest players of all times: Jordan, O'Neal, and Briant. I wouldn't argue that O'Neal and Briant's rings were a result of Phil Jackson.
  - dexterdog 6y ago
    Popovich never coached Jordan.
- subsubzero 6y ago
  I don't think you realize how good those Bulls teams of the 90's, especially the 2nd 3-peats were. For the 2nd 3-peats, 96,97,98 championships, they had 3(Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman) top ten of all time defensive players [1]. So lets think, since the dawn of the NBA 3 of the players on this team are considered the best defenders ever to play the game. This is not all Jordan, this is a stellar defensive cast that is beyond anything the game has seen coupled with the best offensive player in a generation(Jordan). Lebron has never had such a quality(defensive) cast surrounding him. lets not forget coaching. Phil Jackson has won 11 championships, more than any coach ever in the NBA. Who has Lebron had during his championships? Tyronn Lue and Erik Spoelstra, good coaches, but not one of the brightest minds to ever coach the game in Jackson. Lastly, Lebron is still playing, he could pull off a 3-peat with this current Lakers team, we just don't know. I say all this as a die-hard Jordan fan who thinks people underestimate Lebron because he's "nice". [1] - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legendsthe-greatest-defensive-players-in-the-nba-history https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legends...
clairity 6y ago
> "Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.)" lebron has anthony davis, who hasn't quite proven he's at that level, but he's well on his way. just a little more tutelage under lebron and he may go down as being a better 2 than pippen. i'm excited to find out, so let's get this season back on track already!
- moate 6y ago
  The major difference being that Labron is 35, which is how old MJ was in the 98 season. That was the end of the bulls, but really just the start of Lakers Labron. Jordan did diddly after that season (in part because he was stupid and injured himself with a cigar cutter).
  - clairity 6y ago
    lebron has at least 3 more good years left. unlike jordan, lebron doesn't have to deal with a jerry krause dismantling the team out from under him. if AD rises at the same pace lebron declines, it's many more exciting years for the lakers. with that said, zion and the lakers-b-team pelicans are the most exciting thing in basketball right now. brandon ingram made no sense as a #2 to lebron, but he's blossoming in new orleans next to zion, jrue holiday, and an also-revitalized lonzo ball.
rumanator 6y ago
> Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.) Dwane Wade is arguably more accomplished than Pippen, and LeBron also enjoyed the help of the likes of Chris Bosh and Ray Allen. This means that 2 of the 3 championships won by LeBron counted with 3 or 4 all stars and all of famers, either current or future. While Wade and Bosh were seasoned leaders who respectively carried their teams single-handedly, Pippen never really reached that level. In fact, arguably he disappointed in that domain during Jordan's retirement. And let's not forget, that unlike Jordan, LeBron shopped around rather intensely to hand-pick which players would pick up the slack. If he was on a fantasy league that would be a kin of getting the cheat codes to the game and burying the competition.
- dlp211 6y ago
  LeBron James dragged 4 guys and a bench that only the most hardcore NBA fans can name 2 of to the NBA finals in his fourth year in the league.
  - thatcat 6y ago
    3/5 starters were all stars, not much different than Jordan Pippen Rodman. Kobe + Gasol or Shaq was honestly much more impressive than either. lebro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs kobe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10 Maybe I just miss kobe tho...
    - dlp211 6y ago
      I'm not talking about his time in Miami. I'm talking about when he dragged Cleveland past Detroit in the Eastern to play the 3-time finals winning Spurs. LeBron and Jordan are both beasts and trying to compare them is futile, but there is a lot of disrespect for LeBron.
      - 6y ago
save_ferris 6y ago
> Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more? Lebron has definitely abused his teammates during games on live TV, those clips are a YouTube search away. He’s also been responsible for having multiple coaches fired in his career, which isn’t exactly a servant-leader move. > Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player Lebron has played on teams that will probably go down as on-par with some of those bulls teams, it’s not like Pippen was on another planet compared to Wade or Anthony Davis. They’re fairly comparable players. The Cavs also wound up beating that Warriors team that matched the Bulls single season record, which was also considered one of the most talented teams ever. Also, Jordan never belittled opposing fans in a press conference the way Lebron did in 2011 that he wound up having to clarify[0]. This was truly one of the most distasteful things I’ve ever seen a pro athlete say in a press conference, but that’s clearly my opinion. I don’t necessarily believe that one is more or less moral than the other, but I’ve never been convinced of the Lebron “nice guy” story. He’s always come across as more narcissistic than Jordan in my opinion, Jordan would never have done “The Decision” the way Lebron did. 0: https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6661305 https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=66...
clairity 6y ago
it seems like you're falling for the exact fallacy described in the article... maybe intentionally to be provocative? siegler notes that we're all complex beings who can be assholes some of the time. he notes jordan also has a great sense of branding and image, and plays it up for the camera. but there's no doubt that given the level of talent and relative parity at the top of any sport, you need to develop an edge, and jordan could do that, by poking, prodding, and pushing his teammates to rise rather than remain complacent. “Winning has a price. And leadership has a price.” the price jordan paid wasn't at the expense of the respect and friendship of his teammates, otherwise they wouldn't have won so much together. in other words, he wasn't just an asshole.
soperj 6y ago
"I'm gonna take my talents to south beach". Lebron has grown up a lot, but that special was probably one of the most narcissistic things any pro athlete has ever done. Also, Wade won a championship before Lebron went to Miami.

adventured 6y ago

> Sure Lebron has not won as many championships as Jordan (Lebron's 3 to Jordan's 6) Your sure statement is quite the qualification. Three versus six rings is an enormous difference in the NBA. That's a Larry Bird of a difference. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullin and Dominique Wilkins won zero rings. > but he is an atypical pro athlete in that he wants to see his teammates score vs. himself score Jordan's average was 5.3 assists per game (as a shooting guard, emphasis). That's good enough for #29 in the NBA this season and #28 last season. He was winning scoring titles while simultaneously out-competing some starting point guards when it came to assists. Jordan ranks #45 all-time in assists, in 14 equivalent full seasons, ahead of a large list of point guards. He averaged 8 assists and 32.5 points in the same season in 1989, during the height of his scoring capabilities. 8 assists per game is good enough for #5 this season (for those that don't know basketball well, that's typically elite point guard territory). Lebron is #4 all-time in points per game. Your argument is pretty amusing to make given the numbers. He wants to see his teammates score vs himself? He has led his team in scoring for 16 years in a row, including his rookie season. Lebron's scoring average per game is 27.1, Jordan's was 30.1. Lebron has averaged 20 shots per game, Jordan averaged 23. Your premise is plainly false, the gulf between them on scoring behavior is simply not that great. Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant won championships with Jordan and became renowned players - with Pippen being named to the all-time 50 list - precisely because Jordan had no problem with them scoring as well. The scoring label was only partially true in the early years of Jordan's career where he was on a very mediocre Bulls team and attempted to do too much of the scoring out of necessity. Lebron averaged 31.4 points and took 23 shots per game, with 6.6 assists, his third season in the league as a reference. Lebron clearly wasn't lacking in aggressive scoring behavior in his early years either.

subpixel 6y ago
And yet, you score a few extra points just by not being an asshole.
tech-historian 6y ago
Jordan was blessed with having the greatest NBA coach of all time to guide his team. After coaching Jordan to 6 titles, Phil Jackson went on to win another 5 with the Lakers. Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. That's one reason the comparison is so difficult between the two.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > Lebron's coaches have been pedestrian in comparison. LeBron has been hand-picking his whole team for a decade now. If he was unable to find a decent coach, which is not subject to the same restrictions as stacking the team with all-star players, then that shortcoming is also entirely on LeBron. And Phil Jackson's championships were on team's featuring arguably three of the greatest players of all times: Jordan, O'Neal, and Briant. I wouldn't argue that O'Neal and Briant's rings were a result of Phil Jackson.
- dexterdog 6y ago
  Popovich never coached Jordan.
subsubzero 6y ago
I don't think you realize how good those Bulls teams of the 90's, especially the 2nd 3-peats were. For the 2nd 3-peats, 96,97,98 championships, they had 3(Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman) top ten of all time defensive players [1]. So lets think, since the dawn of the NBA 3 of the players on this team are considered the best defenders ever to play the game. This is not all Jordan, this is a stellar defensive cast that is beyond anything the game has seen coupled with the best offensive player in a generation(Jordan). Lebron has never had such a quality(defensive) cast surrounding him. lets not forget coaching. Phil Jackson has won 11 championships, more than any coach ever in the NBA. Who has Lebron had during his championships? Tyronn Lue and Erik Spoelstra, good coaches, but not one of the brightest minds to ever coach the game in Jackson. Lastly, Lebron is still playing, he could pull off a 3-peat with this current Lakers team, we just don't know. I say all this as a die-hard Jordan fan who thinks people underestimate Lebron because he's "nice". [1] - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legendsthe-greatest-defensive-players-in-the-nba-history https://bleacherreport.com/articles/519667-defensive-legends...

clairity 6y ago

> "Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.)" lebron has anthony davis, who hasn't quite proven he's at that level, but he's well on his way. just a little more tutelage under lebron and he may go down as being a better 2 than pippen. i'm excited to find out, so let's get this season back on track already!

moate 6y ago
The major difference being that Labron is 35, which is how old MJ was in the 98 season. That was the end of the bulls, but really just the start of Lakers Labron. Jordan did diddly after that season (in part because he was stupid and injured himself with a cigar cutter).
- clairity 6y ago
  lebron has at least 3 more good years left. unlike jordan, lebron doesn't have to deal with a jerry krause dismantling the team out from under him. if AD rises at the same pace lebron declines, it's many more exciting years for the lakers. with that said, zion and the lakers-b-team pelicans are the most exciting thing in basketball right now. brandon ingram made no sense as a #2 to lebron, but he's blossoming in new orleans next to zion, jrue holiday, and an also-revitalized lonzo ball.

rumanator 6y ago

> Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player [2] and far exceeded the skill of any of Lebron James teammates(Dwayne Wade prb being the closest to Pippen.) Dwane Wade is arguably more accomplished than Pippen, and LeBron also enjoyed the help of the likes of Chris Bosh and Ray Allen. This means that 2 of the 3 championships won by LeBron counted with 3 or 4 all stars and all of famers, either current or future. While Wade and Bosh were seasoned leaders who respectively carried their teams single-handedly, Pippen never really reached that level. In fact, arguably he disappointed in that domain during Jordan's retirement. And let's not forget, that unlike Jordan, LeBron shopped around rather intensely to hand-pick which players would pick up the slack. If he was on a fantasy league that would be a kin of getting the cheat codes to the game and burying the competition.

dlp211 6y ago
LeBron James dragged 4 guys and a bench that only the most hardcore NBA fans can name 2 of to the NBA finals in his fourth year in the league.
- thatcat 6y ago
  3/5 starters were all stars, not much different than Jordan Pippen Rodman. Kobe + Gasol or Shaq was honestly much more impressive than either. lebro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYmJnM9eQs kobe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzwCh3qbpp4&pbjreload=10 Maybe I just miss kobe tho...
  - dlp211 6y ago
    I'm not talking about his time in Miami. I'm talking about when he dragged Cleveland past Detroit in the Eastern to play the 3-time finals winning Spurs. LeBron and Jordan are both beasts and trying to compare them is futile, but there is a lot of disrespect for LeBron.
    - 6y ago

save_ferris 6y ago

> Lebron has never gotten in a fight with his own teammates like Jordan did twice, or maybe more? Lebron has definitely abused his teammates during games on live TV, those clips are a YouTube search away. He’s also been responsible for having multiple coaches fired in his career, which isn’t exactly a servant-leader move. > Jordan also had the benefit of Scottie Pippen who is a all-pro/50 greatest player Lebron has played on teams that will probably go down as on-par with some of those bulls teams, it’s not like Pippen was on another planet compared to Wade or Anthony Davis. They’re fairly comparable players. The Cavs also wound up beating that Warriors team that matched the Bulls single season record, which was also considered one of the most talented teams ever. Also, Jordan never belittled opposing fans in a press conference the way Lebron did in 2011 that he wound up having to clarify[0]. This was truly one of the most distasteful things I’ve ever seen a pro athlete say in a press conference, but that’s clearly my opinion. I don’t necessarily believe that one is more or less moral than the other, but I’ve never been convinced of the Lebron “nice guy” story. He’s always come across as more narcissistic than Jordan in my opinion, Jordan would never have done “The Decision” the way Lebron did. 0: https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6661305 https://www.espn.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=66...

clairity 6y ago

it seems like you're falling for the exact fallacy described in the article... maybe intentionally to be provocative? siegler notes that we're all complex beings who can be assholes some of the time. he notes jordan also has a great sense of branding and image, and plays it up for the camera. but there's no doubt that given the level of talent and relative parity at the top of any sport, you need to develop an edge, and jordan could do that, by poking, prodding, and pushing his teammates to rise rather than remain complacent. “Winning has a price. And leadership has a price.” the price jordan paid wasn't at the expense of the respect and friendship of his teammates, otherwise they wouldn't have won so much together. in other words, he wasn't just an asshole.

soperj 6y ago

"I'm gonna take my talents to south beach". Lebron has grown up a lot, but that special was probably one of the most narcissistic things any pro athlete has ever done. Also, Wade won a championship before Lebron went to Miami.