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The same thing is happening all over the 'western' world. It is not a US or partisan thing. Neo-Liberal oligarchic 'democracies' rely on people voting against t

The same thing is happening all over the 'western' world. It is not a US or partisan thing. Neo-Liberal oligarchic 'democracies' rely on people voting against their own interest. This is core. This is why they need the 'post-thruth' culture where 'everything is fake news'.

xwolfi 6y ago
Do you propose a archaic-communist dictatorship to solve the issue ? What's the alternative world you envision, where people are forbidden to vote, especially against their own interests (or at least, as perceived by you) ? A true democracy, first tell people not to vote only for their own interest, but the nation's, and whatever they vote for, it's THEIR responsibility. No buts, no ifs, you vote you pay. Fake news or corrupt oranges, the citizens have the last word: they wanted it.
- adrianN 6y ago
  "Neo-liberal oligarchies" and archaic communist dictatorships are not the only two types of government. Social democracies for example exist as well and are much less of a strawman to argue against.
nostrebored 6y ago
Maybe you're not empathizing with people enough to understand their interests. This line is tired and ridiculous. If you can't see why people ranging from poor to upper class might favor right wing ideology, without resorting to tropes and strawman arguments, you're not trying. The same is true for left wing ideology. It's not voting against their self interest, it's voting against YOUR PERCEPTION of their interest.
Polylactic_acid 6y ago
This needs some serious citations. As far as I know there have been no fake numbers reported in Australia for example. Americans seem to have this attitude of "If its bad here, just imagine how bad it is everywhere else"
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  I am not American, I am Belgian. Over here the (neo-liberal) side of the political spectrum has mounted enormous pressure on the way all Covid-19 figures are reported, so as to 'not harm the economy'. So far the committees in charge have mostly resisted, but the assault is relentless and they are starting to cave on more recent developments. Two points: -your covid-19 figures, if plausible, should be in line with 'excess-mortality', or you should have an explanation why they are not (keep in mind that some major sources of non-corona mortality were significantly lower during lockdown, while others were slightly up). https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking... - Ask one of the ICU nurses or doctors (I'm sure everyone at least knows a friend of a friend) what happens to those that 'survive' the covid-19 hospitalization? Why is it we are only hearing about 'deaths', as if everything is 'just super' if you weren't hoisted out in a bodybag?
  - rurban 6y ago
    It is well known amongst statisticians that several states cook their numbers in different political ways. Belgium is known to massively over report, every death is COVID-19 there. Belgium got famous for having the highest death rates worldwide, which did not make sense at all. Many others states don't test dead flu suspects at all, and thereby don't report as COVID-19. You only see the real numbers later with the excess mortality. But recently (starting with April 24) even these numbers were cooked as they applied wrong models for the last two weeks. They were proven wrong when you compare the reports for subsequent weeks via archive.org. Other known cheaters are Japan, Turkey, Russia, Germany. It's an interesting game and not many whistleblowers or good journalism.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      To be clear, do you have specific knowledge that these countries are disproportionately cheating, or are you just presuming every country whose statistics violate expectations is cheating?

xwolfi 6y ago

Do you propose a archaic-communist dictatorship to solve the issue ? What's the alternative world you envision, where people are forbidden to vote, especially against their own interests (or at least, as perceived by you) ? A true democracy, first tell people not to vote only for their own interest, but the nation's, and whatever they vote for, it's THEIR responsibility. No buts, no ifs, you vote you pay. Fake news or corrupt oranges, the citizens have the last word: they wanted it.

adrianN 6y ago
"Neo-liberal oligarchies" and archaic communist dictatorships are not the only two types of government. Social democracies for example exist as well and are much less of a strawman to argue against.

nostrebored 6y ago

Maybe you're not empathizing with people enough to understand their interests. This line is tired and ridiculous. If you can't see why people ranging from poor to upper class might favor right wing ideology, without resorting to tropes and strawman arguments, you're not trying. The same is true for left wing ideology. It's not voting against their self interest, it's voting against YOUR PERCEPTION of their interest.

Polylactic_acid 6y ago

This needs some serious citations. As far as I know there have been no fake numbers reported in Australia for example. Americans seem to have this attitude of "If its bad here, just imagine how bad it is everywhere else"

PeterStuer 6y ago
I am not American, I am Belgian. Over here the (neo-liberal) side of the political spectrum has mounted enormous pressure on the way all Covid-19 figures are reported, so as to 'not harm the economy'. So far the committees in charge have mostly resisted, but the assault is relentless and they are starting to cave on more recent developments. Two points: -your covid-19 figures, if plausible, should be in line with 'excess-mortality', or you should have an explanation why they are not (keep in mind that some major sources of non-corona mortality were significantly lower during lockdown, while others were slightly up). https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking... - Ask one of the ICU nurses or doctors (I'm sure everyone at least knows a friend of a friend) what happens to those that 'survive' the covid-19 hospitalization? Why is it we are only hearing about 'deaths', as if everything is 'just super' if you weren't hoisted out in a bodybag?
- rurban 6y ago
  It is well known amongst statisticians that several states cook their numbers in different political ways. Belgium is known to massively over report, every death is COVID-19 there. Belgium got famous for having the highest death rates worldwide, which did not make sense at all. Many others states don't test dead flu suspects at all, and thereby don't report as COVID-19. You only see the real numbers later with the excess mortality. But recently (starting with April 24) even these numbers were cooked as they applied wrong models for the last two weeks. They were proven wrong when you compare the reports for subsequent weeks via archive.org. Other known cheaters are Japan, Turkey, Russia, Germany. It's an interesting game and not many whistleblowers or good journalism.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    To be clear, do you have specific knowledge that these countries are disproportionately cheating, or are you just presuming every country whose statistics violate expectations is cheating?