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To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem star

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremendously by having IP physically based in China. It leaks like a sieve. I've seen it first hand (in semiconductor industry). America should protect its own interests and interests of other democratic nations before they get eroded, dismantled and sold off to CCP's interests. If China doesn't want American software services running and fairly competing because of CCP surveillance requirements, well...then the US should block all Chinese services from exploiting users[1] and their data, may be EU should block Chinese services from running there until there is strict GDPR requirements and the data is located in EU datacenters. There should be independent datacenter security audits just like CCP wants keys to iCloud datacenters. That would just get us to the fairness level and that's still not enough - there should be a reverse asymmetry to make up for last 20 years of damage - incentivize US/EU services and manfuacturing while simultaneously imposing sanctions and import duties on goods/services made in China. Why not? Can someone tell me why the US/EU shouldn't do the same? I should not be able to buy $1.99 USB cable including shipping from China. [1] https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/ https://citizenlab.ca/2020/05/we-chat-they-watch/

dntbnmpls 6y ago
> To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. "To preface", "As an X", etc are easy tells that you really aren't what you claim. Just say what you want rather than defensively qualifying it. Most of us here see right through it and it's a waste of bits. > America should protect its own interests and interests of other democratic nations before they get eroded Then we wouldn't be bullying other democratic nations by telling them who they can or cannot trade with. Also, I wish we'd stop with the "democracy" nonsense considering how many democracies we've attacked/overthrown in our history - the most recent being bolivia. Also, "CCP" is a dead giveaway of propaganda/bias. I don't think I've seen "CCP" as much as I've seen in the last few weeks. It's like everyone at propaganda camp got the same memo. > Can someone tell me why the US/EU shouldn't do the same? Can you tell me what "US/EU" is? Isn't the EU their own political entity? Your comment, like so many comments on social media reek of anti-"CCP" propaganda. I believe in protectionism and I agree that you shouldn't be able to buy a $1.99 USB cable from china, mexico, india or EU or anywhere else. The US should set up tariffs on all products against all countries to protect american workers and reindustrialize. Not selectively use protectionism to attack one single nation which doesn't help any american worker. It seems like most of the "pro-american" commenters are foreigners who want to hurt china rather than help america. It's amazing how many "americans" online supported moving jobs from china to india rather than back to the US. Globalism has been a disaster for workers, environment, etc. Everything from climate change to coronavirus pandemic is due to globalism. I've always felt a more national or even regional trading is appropriate. Why doesn't the EU have their own google, facebook, etc? Why doesn't india? Why doesn't japan? Why are we manufacturing the iphone in china? Tariffs/protectionism should be used by nations to protect their workers and industries. In order for that to happen, globalism has to die. This "I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other." does not align with everything else you wrote. If you truly believed that, you'd be praising china since they are doing exactly that.
- deleted 6y ago
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georgeburdell 6y ago
Right but what does that have to do with a Taiwanese company? That’s the part I have trouble with. According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country. So the U.S. is putting restrictions on a company for taking business from another company from the same country. U.S. needs to work on making its foreign policy self consistent. Recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be a great start (logically and morally)
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  If the US recognizes Taiwan, doesn't that make even less sense? On the one hand you're saying that Taiwan is sovereign, on the other hand you're saying, we the US call the shots.
  - computerex 6y ago
    How is recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign country that it is, saying that we are the ones calling the shots? The one China doctrine is a stupid attempt to save face. It's China throwing a tantrum. It's high time we stop putting up with such childish behavior, don't you think?
    - deleted 6y ago
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  - ksec 6y ago
    Well because US doesn't need to call the shots. Apparently Taiwan is drafting a legislation to officially admit defeat and they no longer calm mainland being their territory. And calling itself Taiwan, a competely separate nation.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      I wasn't talking about Taiwan independence. I was talking about the US forcing TSMC to not do business with China, forcing their will on the TSMC executives.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US companies at gunpoint. US companies always had the choice to not enter the China market. They signed tech tranfer contracts, willingly, because they think the upsides (gaining a new market) are higher than the downsides, or that the downsides are manageable. The fact is, companies made a choice. And now the US government is making that choice for them? From a national supply chain security or technology hegemony point of view it makes sense to deny certain transfers, but let's recognize that this is just geopolitics and not about ethics, fairness, etc. The rherotic about fairness just doesn't make sense upon further scrutiny. If the US government doesn't fully believe in free market, why not just go ahead and say so instead of all the mental gymnastics?
- fermienrico 6y ago
  > Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? I am confused by your question. How is this relevant to anti-competitive behavior of the CCP? > You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Again, what does your patronizing clarification have to do with competitive marketplace where all parties can play fair? I am genuinely asking instead of just raising rhetorical questions. Literally the first line on Free Trade wikipedia page [1] says: "Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports." I thought I was talking about "Free Trade" as in freely be able to compete in China just as local companies. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Those were genuine questions, not patronizing. I just don't agree with the characterization that things are "unfair". I don't see how you can recognize that buying means getting value in return while still talking about fairness at the same time. The fairness is already embedded in the very transaction! You talk about anti-competitiveness, but isn't that just a matter of perspective and not an absolute moral high ground? When Microsoft was accused of anti-competitive behavior, it was because Microsoft used existing cash and influence to squat smaller parties like flies and gain dominance. In the same manner, we can argue that Facebook could squat other smaller social media networks in China as flies because Facebook was already big, and thus Facebook would be the one being anti-competitive. I won't argue with you about US interests. But I can't agree with taking the moral high ground. > "Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports." You can argue that China is not engaging fully in the free trade principle. But in my opinion it still doesn't make sense to turn this into a moral high ground thing, because all countries have import and export controls to some extent, because in the end all countries look after their interests. And not everybody agrees that the free trade principle is a good thing (note: this is not my personal opinion). See the rise of populism in Europe, and the number of people who yell that the Poles or refugees or whatever are "stealing our jobs". Now that I think about it, don't you have the same issue with US people complaining about Mexicans? Turning this into a moral issue is, in my opinion, a childish view of how the work works. I am saying: let's recognize that this is plain geopolitics and interests, and not about morals.
leemailll 6y ago
>China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Both are wrong, Google quit from China, and Uber sold its China division to a rival company.
- summerlight 6y ago
  Wait, are you suggesting that Google/YouTube is still accessible from China?
  - marticode 6y ago
    He is saying that Google could have kept operating in China if they had agreed to follow local (but Orwellian) regulations.
    - summerlight 6y ago
      No, Google pulled its business from China because of massive state-level hacking attempts, not because of fighting for freedom or doing the right thing or whatever that sounds cool. Or do you think fighting against millions of state-backed hackers is a part of following local regulation?
      - enitihas 6y ago
        Google didn't pull it's business from the USA after PRISM, so I guess strengthening their networks against state-backed hackers is already part and parcel of their business.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Did Google pull out of the US when the NSA and friends hacked into their employees and ultimately forced them to give full access?
dirtyid 6y ago
> China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Western social media platform are welcome to participate in China if they follow local laws - in this case onerous censorship requirements, which every domestic company comply to. That's what project Dragonfly was for, but internal Google politics killed it. Bing still operates fine in China while Google and Facebook still makes billions off Chinese adsales. For some reason people find it appalling that US companies have to operate by foreign laws when operating abroad. As far as I know, TikTok keeps US data on US servers. I'm not sure about Europe, but data siloing regulations is becoming the norm as countries realize the importance of domestic information control. So yes, the US/EU should do the same and if Chinese companies don't want to comply they should get booted from the market. Uber's story is more complicated. At the end of the day, Uber and many Chinese rideshare startups got out competed by Didi Chuxing. One narrative is various local and national regulations on ride sharing made gave domestic entrants and unfair competitive advantage, but Uber had a strategic partnership with Baidu (to circumvent Google Map block) which had every interest in Uber succeeding.
- random314 6y ago
  > For some reason people find it appalling that US companies have to operate by foreign laws when operating abroad. Sure, that is the reason why people were appalled - some reason -can't clearly put a finger on it.
- foepys 6y ago
  Didn't China require any foreign company to be controlled by Chinese to get access to the Chinese market? I heard that they relaxed those restrictions a bit to appease the WTO but in practice are often still denying basic permits for foreign companies until they can show to have a ≥51% Chinese share.
  - est 6y ago
    > Didn't China require any foreign company to be controlled by Chinese to get access to the Chinese market? It varies by industry. And loosened quite a bit since the trade war. The most recent case: Exxon Mobil starts building $10 billion China petrochemical complex https://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxonmobil-china-petrochemical/exxon-mobil-starts-building-10-billion-china-petrochemical-complex-xinhua-idUSKCN2241DJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxonmobil-china-petroche... Now Shanghai FTZ allows foreign Internet services operate without the ICP licence. Interesting times.
astatine 6y ago
Here's the thing. Very likely Chinese companies with interest in doing business will comply with any local regulation. That leaves everyone red faced with no further arguments other than raise the concern that you can't trust that there is no backdoor, that there are no secret strings attached etc.
d2161 6y ago
Trade is always beneficial to both sides. I find it quite silly for people who say they support free trade but then claim this kind of bs. If the trade isn't beneficial, then they simply won't trade. And if is then they will receive a benefit from the trade. But trade is decisions by individuals, and shouldn't be up to donald tramp and his tramp crew. What your describing is asymmetry between countries in trade. The Hecksher Ohlin model describes the relationship quite well and the relationship is natural. For the same reason the whole complaing about how X country is subsidising their Y products and ruining our country, is just rich corporate bs. It's focused on business owners and not consumers. Why should I pay for a product when I know my marginal utility/marginal cost is higher with the other product? So I can put more money into some rich asshole's ass pocket? While you might be rich enough to sit complain about things being too cheap, some of us have bills to pay. And I see no reason to pay more so you can make money off the rest of us.
- rtikulit 6y ago
  I take your line of argument as meaning "there are no legitimate medium or long-term interests for countries, for societies or for humanity". Or, alternatively, "the pursuit of short-term interests will always result in long-term good outcomes." I really don't agree. Were I ungenerous, I could interpret "I see no reason to pay more so you can make money off the rest of us" as "If local conditions permit me to loot someone else's future for my own present benefit, I will do so." Furthermore, "trade is always beneficial to both sides" is clearly false, unless you define trade as "that which is always beneficial to both sides." (I agree as a matter of fact that free trade and free markets are in general the most effective way to allocate capital, decide prices, maximize the realized value of goods, and provide individual economic autonomy. I do not, however, see them as end-goals in and of themselves. I do not see them as infallible in fulfilling personal or human values. I do not see them as especially resistant to having their function subverted.)
est 6y ago
> China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber China blocked Google, but not Uber People also invent false lies like "China blocked Amazon, eBay, Yahoo" etc.
temac 6y ago
There is the question of the long term effect of policies like even just threatening to block major Chinese actors thanks to doubtful instruments (the US is basically the only power that attempts and manages to rule the world by claiming and effectively constructing jurisdiction on everything that touches a US dollar, or any kind of tech that has even just minor relationship with the US). Meanwhile the China has already become a major power and even just the threat of a tech blockade will motivate them to develop their own; and we are now past the mere threat points... What will happen when they will own all the supply chains and the buyers will have the choice between US tech, with their propension to want to rule the world, or Chinese tech; of course China may eventually do the same thing as the US, but strategically it is easy enough to not do it for long enough so that it is a major advantage to develop their market. In (at least parts of) the EU, btw, we see this attitude of the US as a critical problem, more than a solution... As far as those kind of affairs are concerned, we don't view the US as a close ally but more as a distant cousin which is sometimes even a blatant economic enemy, especially when they attempt and do rule the world through $US and tech policies (and demonstrated, not only suspected, systematized world scale espionage). For example the embargo on Iran is particularly problematic. The China might be "worse" than the US in some dimensions, including critical ones, but there are some movement in the EU to guarantee/redevelop our independence from the US too, and this involves developing our own versions of more technologies which are for now originating from the US in a far too large proportion, given their policies and the risk they produce. (For some of those projects already existing, I suspect they initially won't be very successful, but that is another issue; if the problem becomes more pressing, there is no reason to not be able to do it: 10 or 20 years is an eternity in tech, but international equilibrium is a longterm affair)
- maxdo 6y ago
  Those actors exist only because China blocks US movies in their theaters to 10 a year(!!). US movie industry creates so-called joint movies with the only goal to avoid these quotas. That's how Chinese capital suddenly got access to US movie companies, Chinese actors start appearing in US movies. It's a pretty much mafia move and has nothing to do with fair trade. Somehow Korea managed to create best movie of the year without this mafia-style ruling. They use the weaknesses of regular people who want gains now.
LatteLazy 6y ago
I don't think you're wrong but... Good luck convincing the average consumer (voter) to do without for a while and then pay more after that. They'll lynch you if they can't get the latest iTurd for 499.99 plus tax. Also, as long as the CCP run China, they'll be stronger than the west (consumerism and short-termism and Chinese abuses of them aren't just US issues). We need them to democratise, consumer domestically and sort out other issues (wet markets, treatment of minorities). That's the long term win here. Convincing them to treat Google and Uber fairly is nice but it's not going to make them reasonable partners in 2,5,10,50 years time...
- hello_moto 6y ago
  Wet markets is a too general/vague. Wet markets exist are all over the world with similar setup like the one in China.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    That's a fair comment. I used it as I wanted a noun short enough to fit in a list. Maybe it's better to go even vaguer though: "food hygiene standards so low they keep causing pandemics".
    - hello_moto 6y ago
      Actually, wet markets in Asia have the same health standards like the ones in China: close to none ;). Covid19 spread faster, unfortunately. There are quite a few viruses/infectious diseases spreading in Asia that didn't made it big-time like Covid19.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Perhaps we should get a hanfle on short-termist and consumerism before they doom us, with or without China
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    I'd like that. I actually think Chinas rise is one of the things that will make us do that. Similarly, some environmental catastropy might. Not sure how else it will happen.
maxdo 6y ago
Locking services is one thing, take as an example Xiaomi which started as an Apple copy. Right now it's a multibillion company. If copyright exists on China soil this company wouldn't exist at all and it will not take shares it has now. This is very basic path for many Chinese companies, yes, once they reach some volume they start to follow some rules since some grey area countries might ban them but till that moment they enjoy absolute freedom.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  The current IP regime is deeply problematic and I would not enourage other countries to copy it blindly. Also in some societies the idea of intellectual property is not widely accepted, and obviously their laws and behaviour will reflect that.
maxdo 6y ago
What is more important to me, is 9-9-6, ecology, and the culture China tries to bring to the modern world. We have some rights for the middle class in both US and Europe. It's not perfect but it's so much better comparing even to 50 years ago, don't even try to compare now and 150 years ago. China is a treat to this lifestyle. It pushes us centuries back where regular people are just a source for monsters like Tencent. I have a friend who worked in Tencent an iconic Chinese IT company that owns WeChat. They work from 9 to 9, six days a week. This is not an option. It's mandatory. She literally escapes to the US because been a single woman in the early 30s considered a very bad misdo in their society. The same rule doesn't apply for man btw. So you as young female pushed to work 9-9-6 and do a very bad choice very early because you have to do it before 30, otherwise you're considered a renegade. Their society is an extremely racist and sexist to the point where their own parents don't want to talk to you if you're a woman who doesn't want to mary a Han-Chinese person( a title nationality in China). I don't believe that scientists of the western world that put their life for a breakthrough in Computer science, agriculture, medicine, etc... dedicate their life for this kind of society where humanity is just a bio-mechanism that has one day off to clean the room and recover a bit. No social life... nothing. It's a huge gap. While the western world is debating about 4 days of work week china is double down on 9-9-6 which anti-human. You might remember GitHub issue with software developers complains about it and how china tried to stop this "leak" So no matter how stupid it's sound. It's a free world with the neo-feodal country as it is. You vote for that with your money. Right now is a tipping point they either slow down and the CCP will collapse in a natural way or they will be ruling the world means their way to do business one day might apply to you. I'm not trying to idealize US or any other country. EU seems to be much more socialistic, Canada seems to be much more inclusive ( at least Toronto). EU is putting so much more money into green energy compared to the US. But this competition is a much better direction rather than what Chinese leadership offers. Racism, sexism, neglecting ecology impact, no human rights, no socialism in any form, no rule of law. Don't get messed with US wrong things. You have so many reasons to hate Donald and what he's doing but that doesn't automatically make his opponents saint. In fact, Donald will disappear in 0.5 or 4 years. And the threat to the middle-class people's lifestyle because of China and CCP will not.
- nicholas73 6y ago
api 6y ago
> To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is massive asymmetry in those countries in terms of human rights, worker protections, and environmental regulations. Criticize the US all day (I certainly can), but compared to the Chinese single party dictatorship the US is massively better in all those areas. The EU is even better than the US in some. Occupational safety, environmental laws, and a free and open society imposes costs on business in the form of higher wages and overhead. It's impossible -- repeat, impossible -- for businesses in countries that operate to those standards to compete in a "free trade" regime with businesses in countries that do not. It's even worse when said countries (like China) also subsidize their industries and implement protectionist asymmetrical trade policies of their own. I am all for free trade between free countries to within some reasonable minimal standard for "free." Trade with totalitarian and lawless regimes should be heavily taxed. The free world should form a trade pact among its members with heavy tariffs for imports from non members. One way of implementing it would be penalties for wages below domestic median, carbon emissions, and human rights violations. Use those factors to calculate a score and impose tariffs accordingly.
- effie 6y ago
  What is "free world"?
tomp 6y ago
I'm not supporter of free trade, I'm supporter of fair trade. What you've described is simply - unfair. Another extremely unfair thing is different employment & environmental standards. If an EU company opens a Chinese factory just because they can make people work more hours and can pollute the environment more, I don't really see that as a "globalization benefit", but rather as "unlawful competition" which results in a race to the bottom (other EU/US companies being forced to open polluting exploiting factories abroad to compete on price). That's why I strongly support tariffs on imported products, unless foreign companies/factories conform to strict standards and allow strict (and random) inspection that they do conform to said standards.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  Are you sure your idea of fairness is right? Consider Mongolia, perhaps they want to match EU employment standards but can't afford do. What are they suppose to do? Suppose a democracy decided on different employment standards, should EU ban imports from US due to EU having higher standards of employee and environmental protection? How big does the difference have to be? Does your free trade "fairness" account for the advantages US gets from being a global center of finance? For disadvantages Vietnam has from being a recent colony and having a devastating war? Does a country with loads of natural resources, or elderly population, or struck by natural disaster change the calculus? Is this a robust rule you would like to see implemented, or is it just justifying current politics?
  - the8472 6y ago
    Factor those externalties - internalized for some manufacturers by regulations - that allow them to manufacture more cheaply into the import tariffs. Trade is not the same as a tariff-free common market.
    - deleted 6y ago
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  - tomp 6y ago
    It’s a robust rule I’d like to see implemented. Obviously there’s a lot of nuance and important details, some if which you highlighted, but the general idea is, that the goal should be to make a policy that’s “fair” in some way or another, and not just go “hur dur muh free trade” free-for-all. For example, I’d probably give Mongolia a bit of leeway as it’s a poor, developing nation to help them catch up, whereas I think US should be punished mot for the reasons you highlight, but for being a tax haven and maybe even for pollution. But in general, my argument isn’t about some specific countries, but instead about specific products. A company in Mongolia selling to EU could either not give their employees medical insurance and sell widgets to EU for €50 + 100% tariffs, or treat their employees by EU standards and sell widgets for €100 and no tariffs. The ideal tariffs would exactly balance that (while still allowing Mongolian widgets to be cheaper because of lower wages because of lower cost of living.)
myopenid 6y ago
China blocked American services in the mainland precisely to prevent intel gathering on the Chinese masses. And it's ironic for you to say the CCP wants keys to iCloud, because your government literally forces American companies to hand over the keys[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
myopenid 6y ago
> It leaks like a sieve. I've seen it first hand (in semiconductor industry). There is this thing called knowledge transfer, and you do this when you change jobs. Are you suggesting that the employee work in the same company indefinitely? > well...then the US should block all Chinese services from exploiting users[1] and their data Which is exactly what China is doing to you.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  The US requires due process where companies like Apple can (and do) fight the government in court where a judge must decide whether the request is lawful/constitutional. Can the same be said for the CCP? And even if such a court exists in the CCP, if a company did fight a data request from the CCP, would the executives then "disappear" never to be seen again or perhaps disappear and then show up months later apologizing profusely for being so wrong in not following the wishes of the CCP?
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    That's the ideal, but the reality is that the NSA was collecting large amounts of information on nearly all Americans for years, and the public was completely oblivious to it. A secret court issued nearly 100% of requested warrants. Some of the warrants that have come to light were blatantly unconstitutional, but because the entire system was hidden from the public, nobody could complain. Even now, legally challenging this surveillance is almost impossible, because nobody can prove standing - the list of surveillance targets is secret after all. The very existence of this system was secret. It wasn't democratically legitimized. Nobody voted for the system, and the voters were kept in the dark about the system's existence. This isn't to say that China and the US are identical. They're bad in different ways. You'll be spied on in both countries, but you have legal avenues to protect yourself from imprisonment/etc. in the US. Then again, China doesn't drone strike its own citizens abroad, as far as we know.
powerapple 6y ago
Google left China. Uber sold their share of market to Didi. US has blocked many deals when Chinese companies are involved. There is never free global trade, it is just exploitation at different scales. Global trade happens because some countries need dollars to buy weapon, oil and technology. You buy $1.99 USB cable from China, and the profit from 100 million cables will be used to buy intel chips and Boeing airplanes. It is the same that the profit of 100 kilos of coffee beans from Africa countries will be used to buy weapons from US. We don't need global trade if there is no weapon in the world.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
> The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. Up until a few years ago, there was a massive asymmetry, but in the opposite sense to the asymmetry that Americans usually complain about. Because China was a developing country with very little capital but a huge labor pool, there were huge investment inflows into China. Western companies took advantage of cheap labor in China, setting up factories to produce for Western consumers. Chinese consumers were almost completely out of the picture. China did not have the capital to invest in foreign countries, so the investment was almost entirely unidirectional. That began to change as China's workers began to earn more, and Western companies jumped into the Chinese consumer market (Starbucks has thousands of locations in China, VW sells millions of cars in China a year, and so on for countless Western companies). Whereas you would see almost no Chinese brands in Western consumer markets, the Chinese market was awash with Western brands. Now, Chinese brands are starting to enter Western markets, and China also has capital to invest abroad. The relationship is becoming more bidirectional. To the United States, which was happy to exploit cheap Chinese labor and to sell airplanes to the Chinese market, the idea that China might be transforming into a serious economic and political competitor is alarming. That's why there are suddenly these myopic complaints about the relationship being one-sided. > China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Google is blocked in China for political reasons. Uber was allowed, and indeed operated in the Chinese market for a number of years. It failed there, because there was strong competition from companies that understood the local market and local consumer preferences better. Let me ask a simple question to test if the relationship really is asymmetric, and in which direction the asymmetry points: Do Chinese brands have a larger presence in the US than American brands have in China?
- fermienrico 6y ago
  You've made some good points but what about the fact that everything in my living room, I mean everything from the paint on the wall to the keys on my Macbook - everything is made in China. I say that influence is of material value (goods) whereas Starbucks entering the Chinese market seems like a distraction.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

dntbnmpls 6y ago

> To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. "To preface", "As an X", etc are easy tells that you really aren't what you claim. Just say what you want rather than defensively qualifying it. Most of us here see right through it and it's a waste of bits. > America should protect its own interests and interests of other democratic nations before they get eroded Then we wouldn't be bullying other democratic nations by telling them who they can or cannot trade with. Also, I wish we'd stop with the "democracy" nonsense considering how many democracies we've attacked/overthrown in our history - the most recent being bolivia. Also, "CCP" is a dead giveaway of propaganda/bias. I don't think I've seen "CCP" as much as I've seen in the last few weeks. It's like everyone at propaganda camp got the same memo. > Can someone tell me why the US/EU shouldn't do the same? Can you tell me what "US/EU" is? Isn't the EU their own political entity? Your comment, like so many comments on social media reek of anti-"CCP" propaganda. I believe in protectionism and I agree that you shouldn't be able to buy a $1.99 USB cable from china, mexico, india or EU or anywhere else. The US should set up tariffs on all products against all countries to protect american workers and reindustrialize. Not selectively use protectionism to attack one single nation which doesn't help any american worker. It seems like most of the "pro-american" commenters are foreigners who want to hurt china rather than help america. It's amazing how many "americans" online supported moving jobs from china to india rather than back to the US. Globalism has been a disaster for workers, environment, etc. Everything from climate change to coronavirus pandemic is due to globalism. I've always felt a more national or even regional trading is appropriate. Why doesn't the EU have their own google, facebook, etc? Why doesn't india? Why doesn't japan? Why are we manufacturing the iphone in china? Tariffs/protectionism should be used by nations to protect their workers and industries. In order for that to happen, globalism has to die. This "I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other." does not align with everything else you wrote. If you truly believed that, you'd be praising china since they are doing exactly that.

deleted 6y ago
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georgeburdell 6y ago

Right but what does that have to do with a Taiwanese company? That’s the part I have trouble with. According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country. So the U.S. is putting restrictions on a company for taking business from another company from the same country. U.S. needs to work on making its foreign policy self consistent. Recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be a great start (logically and morally)

FooBarWidget 6y ago
If the US recognizes Taiwan, doesn't that make even less sense? On the one hand you're saying that Taiwan is sovereign, on the other hand you're saying, we the US call the shots.
- computerex 6y ago
  How is recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign country that it is, saying that we are the ones calling the shots? The one China doctrine is a stupid attempt to save face. It's China throwing a tantrum. It's high time we stop putting up with such childish behavior, don't you think?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ksec 6y ago
  Well because US doesn't need to call the shots. Apparently Taiwan is drafting a legislation to officially admit defeat and they no longer calm mainland being their territory. And calling itself Taiwan, a competely separate nation.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I wasn't talking about Taiwan independence. I was talking about the US forcing TSMC to not do business with China, forcing their will on the TSMC executives.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US companies at gunpoint. US companies always had the choice to not enter the China market. They signed tech tranfer contracts, willingly, because they think the upsides (gaining a new market) are higher than the downsides, or that the downsides are manageable. The fact is, companies made a choice. And now the US government is making that choice for them? From a national supply chain security or technology hegemony point of view it makes sense to deny certain transfers, but let's recognize that this is just geopolitics and not about ethics, fairness, etc. The rherotic about fairness just doesn't make sense upon further scrutiny. If the US government doesn't fully believe in free market, why not just go ahead and say so instead of all the mental gymnastics?

fermienrico 6y ago
> Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? I am confused by your question. How is this relevant to anti-competitive behavior of the CCP? > You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Again, what does your patronizing clarification have to do with competitive marketplace where all parties can play fair? I am genuinely asking instead of just raising rhetorical questions. Literally the first line on Free Trade wikipedia page [1] says: "Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports." I thought I was talking about "Free Trade" as in freely be able to compete in China just as local companies. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Those were genuine questions, not patronizing. I just don't agree with the characterization that things are "unfair". I don't see how you can recognize that buying means getting value in return while still talking about fairness at the same time. The fairness is already embedded in the very transaction! You talk about anti-competitiveness, but isn't that just a matter of perspective and not an absolute moral high ground? When Microsoft was accused of anti-competitive behavior, it was because Microsoft used existing cash and influence to squat smaller parties like flies and gain dominance. In the same manner, we can argue that Facebook could squat other smaller social media networks in China as flies because Facebook was already big, and thus Facebook would be the one being anti-competitive. I won't argue with you about US interests. But I can't agree with taking the moral high ground. > "Free trade is a trade policy that does not restrict imports or exports." You can argue that China is not engaging fully in the free trade principle. But in my opinion it still doesn't make sense to turn this into a moral high ground thing, because all countries have import and export controls to some extent, because in the end all countries look after their interests. And not everybody agrees that the free trade principle is a good thing (note: this is not my personal opinion). See the rise of populism in Europe, and the number of people who yell that the Poles or refugees or whatever are "stealing our jobs". Now that I think about it, don't you have the same issue with US people complaining about Mexicans? Turning this into a moral issue is, in my opinion, a childish view of how the work works. I am saying: let's recognize that this is plain geopolitics and interests, and not about morals.

leemailll 6y ago

>China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Both are wrong, Google quit from China, and Uber sold its China division to a rival company.

summerlight 6y ago
Wait, are you suggesting that Google/YouTube is still accessible from China?
- marticode 6y ago
  He is saying that Google could have kept operating in China if they had agreed to follow local (but Orwellian) regulations.
  - summerlight 6y ago
    No, Google pulled its business from China because of massive state-level hacking attempts, not because of fighting for freedom or doing the right thing or whatever that sounds cool. Or do you think fighting against millions of state-backed hackers is a part of following local regulation?
    - enitihas 6y ago
      Google didn't pull it's business from the USA after PRISM, so I guess strengthening their networks against state-backed hackers is already part and parcel of their business.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Did Google pull out of the US when the NSA and friends hacked into their employees and ultimately forced them to give full access?

dirtyid 6y ago

> China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Western social media platform are welcome to participate in China if they follow local laws - in this case onerous censorship requirements, which every domestic company comply to. That's what project Dragonfly was for, but internal Google politics killed it. Bing still operates fine in China while Google and Facebook still makes billions off Chinese adsales. For some reason people find it appalling that US companies have to operate by foreign laws when operating abroad. As far as I know, TikTok keeps US data on US servers. I'm not sure about Europe, but data siloing regulations is becoming the norm as countries realize the importance of domestic information control. So yes, the US/EU should do the same and if Chinese companies don't want to comply they should get booted from the market. Uber's story is more complicated. At the end of the day, Uber and many Chinese rideshare startups got out competed by Didi Chuxing. One narrative is various local and national regulations on ride sharing made gave domestic entrants and unfair competitive advantage, but Uber had a strategic partnership with Baidu (to circumvent Google Map block) which had every interest in Uber succeeding.

random314 6y ago
> For some reason people find it appalling that US companies have to operate by foreign laws when operating abroad. Sure, that is the reason why people were appalled - some reason -can't clearly put a finger on it.
foepys 6y ago
Didn't China require any foreign company to be controlled by Chinese to get access to the Chinese market? I heard that they relaxed those restrictions a bit to appease the WTO but in practice are often still denying basic permits for foreign companies until they can show to have a ≥51% Chinese share.
- est 6y ago
  > Didn't China require any foreign company to be controlled by Chinese to get access to the Chinese market? It varies by industry. And loosened quite a bit since the trade war. The most recent case: Exxon Mobil starts building $10 billion China petrochemical complex https://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxonmobil-china-petrochemical/exxon-mobil-starts-building-10-billion-china-petrochemical-complex-xinhua-idUSKCN2241DJ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-exxonmobil-china-petroche... Now Shanghai FTZ allows foreign Internet services operate without the ICP licence. Interesting times.

astatine 6y ago

Here's the thing. Very likely Chinese companies with interest in doing business will comply with any local regulation. That leaves everyone red faced with no further arguments other than raise the concern that you can't trust that there is no backdoor, that there are no secret strings attached etc.

d2161 6y ago

Trade is always beneficial to both sides. I find it quite silly for people who say they support free trade but then claim this kind of bs. If the trade isn't beneficial, then they simply won't trade. And if is then they will receive a benefit from the trade. But trade is decisions by individuals, and shouldn't be up to donald tramp and his tramp crew. What your describing is asymmetry between countries in trade. The Hecksher Ohlin model describes the relationship quite well and the relationship is natural. For the same reason the whole complaing about how X country is subsidising their Y products and ruining our country, is just rich corporate bs. It's focused on business owners and not consumers. Why should I pay for a product when I know my marginal utility/marginal cost is higher with the other product? So I can put more money into some rich asshole's ass pocket? While you might be rich enough to sit complain about things being too cheap, some of us have bills to pay. And I see no reason to pay more so you can make money off the rest of us.

rtikulit 6y ago
I take your line of argument as meaning "there are no legitimate medium or long-term interests for countries, for societies or for humanity". Or, alternatively, "the pursuit of short-term interests will always result in long-term good outcomes." I really don't agree. Were I ungenerous, I could interpret "I see no reason to pay more so you can make money off the rest of us" as "If local conditions permit me to loot someone else's future for my own present benefit, I will do so." Furthermore, "trade is always beneficial to both sides" is clearly false, unless you define trade as "that which is always beneficial to both sides." (I agree as a matter of fact that free trade and free markets are in general the most effective way to allocate capital, decide prices, maximize the realized value of goods, and provide individual economic autonomy. I do not, however, see them as end-goals in and of themselves. I do not see them as infallible in fulfilling personal or human values. I do not see them as especially resistant to having their function subverted.)

est 6y ago

> China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber China blocked Google, but not Uber People also invent false lies like "China blocked Amazon, eBay, Yahoo" etc.

temac 6y ago

There is the question of the long term effect of policies like even just threatening to block major Chinese actors thanks to doubtful instruments (the US is basically the only power that attempts and manages to rule the world by claiming and effectively constructing jurisdiction on everything that touches a US dollar, or any kind of tech that has even just minor relationship with the US). Meanwhile the China has already become a major power and even just the threat of a tech blockade will motivate them to develop their own; and we are now past the mere threat points... What will happen when they will own all the supply chains and the buyers will have the choice between US tech, with their propension to want to rule the world, or Chinese tech; of course China may eventually do the same thing as the US, but strategically it is easy enough to not do it for long enough so that it is a major advantage to develop their market. In (at least parts of) the EU, btw, we see this attitude of the US as a critical problem, more than a solution... As far as those kind of affairs are concerned, we don't view the US as a close ally but more as a distant cousin which is sometimes even a blatant economic enemy, especially when they attempt and do rule the world through $US and tech policies (and demonstrated, not only suspected, systematized world scale espionage). For example the embargo on Iran is particularly problematic. The China might be "worse" than the US in some dimensions, including critical ones, but there are some movement in the EU to guarantee/redevelop our independence from the US too, and this involves developing our own versions of more technologies which are for now originating from the US in a far too large proportion, given their policies and the risk they produce. (For some of those projects already existing, I suspect they initially won't be very successful, but that is another issue; if the problem becomes more pressing, there is no reason to not be able to do it: 10 or 20 years is an eternity in tech, but international equilibrium is a longterm affair)

maxdo 6y ago
Those actors exist only because China blocks US movies in their theaters to 10 a year(!!). US movie industry creates so-called joint movies with the only goal to avoid these quotas. That's how Chinese capital suddenly got access to US movie companies, Chinese actors start appearing in US movies. It's a pretty much mafia move and has nothing to do with fair trade. Somehow Korea managed to create best movie of the year without this mafia-style ruling. They use the weaknesses of regular people who want gains now.

LatteLazy 6y ago

I don't think you're wrong but... Good luck convincing the average consumer (voter) to do without for a while and then pay more after that. They'll lynch you if they can't get the latest iTurd for 499.99 plus tax. Also, as long as the CCP run China, they'll be stronger than the west (consumerism and short-termism and Chinese abuses of them aren't just US issues). We need them to democratise, consumer domestically and sort out other issues (wet markets, treatment of minorities). That's the long term win here. Convincing them to treat Google and Uber fairly is nice but it's not going to make them reasonable partners in 2,5,10,50 years time...

hello_moto 6y ago
Wet markets is a too general/vague. Wet markets exist are all over the world with similar setup like the one in China.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  That's a fair comment. I used it as I wanted a noun short enough to fit in a list. Maybe it's better to go even vaguer though: "food hygiene standards so low they keep causing pandemics".
  - hello_moto 6y ago
    Actually, wet markets in Asia have the same health standards like the ones in China: close to none ;). Covid19 spread faster, unfortunately. There are quite a few viruses/infectious diseases spreading in Asia that didn't made it big-time like Covid19.
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Perhaps we should get a hanfle on short-termist and consumerism before they doom us, with or without China
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  I'd like that. I actually think Chinas rise is one of the things that will make us do that. Similarly, some environmental catastropy might. Not sure how else it will happen.

maxdo 6y ago

Locking services is one thing, take as an example Xiaomi which started as an Apple copy. Right now it's a multibillion company. If copyright exists on China soil this company wouldn't exist at all and it will not take shares it has now. This is very basic path for many Chinese companies, yes, once they reach some volume they start to follow some rules since some grey area countries might ban them but till that moment they enjoy absolute freedom.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
The current IP regime is deeply problematic and I would not enourage other countries to copy it blindly. Also in some societies the idea of intellectual property is not widely accepted, and obviously their laws and behaviour will reflect that.

maxdo 6y ago

What is more important to me, is 9-9-6, ecology, and the culture China tries to bring to the modern world. We have some rights for the middle class in both US and Europe. It's not perfect but it's so much better comparing even to 50 years ago, don't even try to compare now and 150 years ago. China is a treat to this lifestyle. It pushes us centuries back where regular people are just a source for monsters like Tencent. I have a friend who worked in Tencent an iconic Chinese IT company that owns WeChat. They work from 9 to 9, six days a week. This is not an option. It's mandatory. She literally escapes to the US because been a single woman in the early 30s considered a very bad misdo in their society. The same rule doesn't apply for man btw. So you as young female pushed to work 9-9-6 and do a very bad choice very early because you have to do it before 30, otherwise you're considered a renegade. Their society is an extremely racist and sexist to the point where their own parents don't want to talk to you if you're a woman who doesn't want to mary a Han-Chinese person( a title nationality in China). I don't believe that scientists of the western world that put their life for a breakthrough in Computer science, agriculture, medicine, etc... dedicate their life for this kind of society where humanity is just a bio-mechanism that has one day off to clean the room and recover a bit. No social life... nothing. It's a huge gap. While the western world is debating about 4 days of work week china is double down on 9-9-6 which anti-human. You might remember GitHub issue with software developers complains about it and how china tried to stop this "leak" So no matter how stupid it's sound. It's a free world with the neo-feodal country as it is. You vote for that with your money. Right now is a tipping point they either slow down and the CCP will collapse in a natural way or they will be ruling the world means their way to do business one day might apply to you. I'm not trying to idealize US or any other country. EU seems to be much more socialistic, Canada seems to be much more inclusive ( at least Toronto). EU is putting so much more money into green energy compared to the US. But this competition is a much better direction rather than what Chinese leadership offers. Racism, sexism, neglecting ecology impact, no human rights, no socialism in any form, no rule of law. Don't get messed with US wrong things. You have so many reasons to hate Donald and what he's doing but that doesn't automatically make his opponents saint. In fact, Donald will disappear in 0.5 or 4 years. And the threat to the middle-class people's lifestyle because of China and CCP will not.

nicholas73 6y ago

api 6y ago

> To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is massive asymmetry in those countries in terms of human rights, worker protections, and environmental regulations. Criticize the US all day (I certainly can), but compared to the Chinese single party dictatorship the US is massively better in all those areas. The EU is even better than the US in some. Occupational safety, environmental laws, and a free and open society imposes costs on business in the form of higher wages and overhead. It's impossible -- repeat, impossible -- for businesses in countries that operate to those standards to compete in a "free trade" regime with businesses in countries that do not. It's even worse when said countries (like China) also subsidize their industries and implement protectionist asymmetrical trade policies of their own. I am all for free trade between free countries to within some reasonable minimal standard for "free." Trade with totalitarian and lawless regimes should be heavily taxed. The free world should form a trade pact among its members with heavy tariffs for imports from non members. One way of implementing it would be penalties for wages below domestic median, carbon emissions, and human rights violations. Use those factors to calculate a score and impose tariffs accordingly.

effie 6y ago
What is "free world"?

tomp 6y ago

I'm not supporter of free trade, I'm supporter of fair trade. What you've described is simply - unfair. Another extremely unfair thing is different employment & environmental standards. If an EU company opens a Chinese factory just because they can make people work more hours and can pollute the environment more, I don't really see that as a "globalization benefit", but rather as "unlawful competition" which results in a race to the bottom (other EU/US companies being forced to open polluting exploiting factories abroad to compete on price). That's why I strongly support tariffs on imported products, unless foreign companies/factories conform to strict standards and allow strict (and random) inspection that they do conform to said standards.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
Are you sure your idea of fairness is right? Consider Mongolia, perhaps they want to match EU employment standards but can't afford do. What are they suppose to do? Suppose a democracy decided on different employment standards, should EU ban imports from US due to EU having higher standards of employee and environmental protection? How big does the difference have to be? Does your free trade "fairness" account for the advantages US gets from being a global center of finance? For disadvantages Vietnam has from being a recent colony and having a devastating war? Does a country with loads of natural resources, or elderly population, or struck by natural disaster change the calculus? Is this a robust rule you would like to see implemented, or is it just justifying current politics?
- the8472 6y ago
  Factor those externalties - internalized for some manufacturers by regulations - that allow them to manufacture more cheaply into the import tariffs. Trade is not the same as a tariff-free common market.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- tomp 6y ago
  It’s a robust rule I’d like to see implemented. Obviously there’s a lot of nuance and important details, some if which you highlighted, but the general idea is, that the goal should be to make a policy that’s “fair” in some way or another, and not just go “hur dur muh free trade” free-for-all. For example, I’d probably give Mongolia a bit of leeway as it’s a poor, developing nation to help them catch up, whereas I think US should be punished mot for the reasons you highlight, but for being a tax haven and maybe even for pollution. But in general, my argument isn’t about some specific countries, but instead about specific products. A company in Mongolia selling to EU could either not give their employees medical insurance and sell widgets to EU for €50 + 100% tariffs, or treat their employees by EU standards and sell widgets for €100 and no tariffs. The ideal tariffs would exactly balance that (while still allowing Mongolian widgets to be cheaper because of lower wages because of lower cost of living.)

myopenid 6y ago

China blocked American services in the mainland precisely to prevent intel gathering on the Chinese masses. And it's ironic for you to say the CCP wants keys to iCloud, because your government literally forces American companies to hand over the keys[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

myopenid 6y ago

> It leaks like a sieve. I've seen it first hand (in semiconductor industry). There is this thing called knowledge transfer, and you do this when you change jobs. Are you suggesting that the employee work in the same company indefinitely? > well...then the US should block all Chinese services from exploiting users[1] and their data Which is exactly what China is doing to you.

jjeaff 6y ago
The US requires due process where companies like Apple can (and do) fight the government in court where a judge must decide whether the request is lawful/constitutional. Can the same be said for the CCP? And even if such a court exists in the CCP, if a company did fight a data request from the CCP, would the executives then "disappear" never to be seen again or perhaps disappear and then show up months later apologizing profusely for being so wrong in not following the wishes of the CCP?
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  That's the ideal, but the reality is that the NSA was collecting large amounts of information on nearly all Americans for years, and the public was completely oblivious to it. A secret court issued nearly 100% of requested warrants. Some of the warrants that have come to light were blatantly unconstitutional, but because the entire system was hidden from the public, nobody could complain. Even now, legally challenging this surveillance is almost impossible, because nobody can prove standing - the list of surveillance targets is secret after all. The very existence of this system was secret. It wasn't democratically legitimized. Nobody voted for the system, and the voters were kept in the dark about the system's existence. This isn't to say that China and the US are identical. They're bad in different ways. You'll be spied on in both countries, but you have legal avenues to protect yourself from imprisonment/etc. in the US. Then again, China doesn't drone strike its own citizens abroad, as far as we know.

powerapple 6y ago

Google left China. Uber sold their share of market to Didi. US has blocked many deals when Chinese companies are involved. There is never free global trade, it is just exploitation at different scales. Global trade happens because some countries need dollars to buy weapon, oil and technology. You buy $1.99 USB cable from China, and the profit from 100 million cables will be used to buy intel chips and Boeing airplanes. It is the same that the profit of 100 kilos of coffee beans from Africa countries will be used to buy weapons from US. We don't need global trade if there is no weapon in the world.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

> The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. Up until a few years ago, there was a massive asymmetry, but in the opposite sense to the asymmetry that Americans usually complain about. Because China was a developing country with very little capital but a huge labor pool, there were huge investment inflows into China. Western companies took advantage of cheap labor in China, setting up factories to produce for Western consumers. Chinese consumers were almost completely out of the picture. China did not have the capital to invest in foreign countries, so the investment was almost entirely unidirectional. That began to change as China's workers began to earn more, and Western companies jumped into the Chinese consumer market (Starbucks has thousands of locations in China, VW sells millions of cars in China a year, and so on for countless Western companies). Whereas you would see almost no Chinese brands in Western consumer markets, the Chinese market was awash with Western brands. Now, Chinese brands are starting to enter Western markets, and China also has capital to invest abroad. The relationship is becoming more bidirectional. To the United States, which was happy to exploit cheap Chinese labor and to sell airplanes to the Chinese market, the idea that China might be transforming into a serious economic and political competitor is alarming. That's why there are suddenly these myopic complaints about the relationship being one-sided. > China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber Google is blocked in China for political reasons. Uber was allowed, and indeed operated in the Chinese market for a number of years. It failed there, because there was strong competition from companies that understood the local market and local consumer preferences better. Let me ask a simple question to test if the relationship really is asymmetric, and in which direction the asymmetry points: Do Chinese brands have a larger presence in the US than American brands have in China?

fermienrico 6y ago
You've made some good points but what about the fact that everything in my living room, I mean everything from the paint on the wall to the keys on my Macbook - everything is made in China. I say that influence is of material value (goods) whereas Starbucks entering the Chinese market seems like a distraction.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago