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You are wrong that FAANG companies will pay the same salary as you make in SF if you are in a low cost state like Indiana. I have a friend at one of those compa

You are wrong that FAANG companies will pay the same salary as you make in SF if you are in a low cost state like Indiana. I have a friend at one of those companies and they were running a survey to gauge employee's keenness for permanent wfh - and they were very clear that employee's salary will be adjusted based on which city they are based in. So, while this is still healthy, since FAANG pays pretty well, but don't expect half a million dollar working from your house in Indiana.

RhodesianHunter 6y ago
They didn't say that though, so the whole "you're wrong" is unwarranted. They said local companies will have to compete with FANG salaries. To your point these would likely be cost of living adjusted, but would almost certainly be higher than the current average in most Midwestern cities.
- product50 6y ago
  Lol - let us see. You must me dreaming if you are expecting no significant cost of living adjustments on salaries.
  - RhodesianHunter 6y ago
    You are again completely misreading what I said, which clearly states that there will be cost of living adjustments, but that the salaries are still likely to be higher than non-tech hub averages. Not every online conversation has to be a fight with winners and losers.
    - product50 6y ago
      You are right. I was reacting based on your first sentence. Sorry about that!
longtimegoogler 6y ago
Yup. Salaries are based on the local market.
- asdfaoeu 6y ago
  This is true but salaries aren't based on cost of living exclusively they are based on demand as well. If more companies shift to remote work that will spread demand across the US driving up salaries in low cost of living areas and reducing them in high cost of living areas.
- xur17 6y ago
  True, but I'd argue that remote working exists in a market of its own, somewhere between sf rates and local market rates.
bachmeier 6y ago
Just want to point out that there's no rational basis for this argument unless the employee in SF is much more productive. To put it another way, do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs for employees living in SF? Have you ever heard of differences across employees simply because one of them has a more expensive house?
- qroshan 6y ago
  Dude in SF is more likely to bump into other dudes in SF and talk about system design, math or AI or competition or best practices or stacks. Dude in Indiana doesn't have that opportunity. You'd say but Internet, but things like motivation, inspiration, innovation comes from a certain external factors (which we still haven't figured out). That's why even with massive internet penetration, it's the tech hubs that keep pumping winners and hits
- tspike 6y ago
  > do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment." The rational basis is that the employer sees strategic value in having a physical presence in a given locale, and are willing to pay a premium to have employees actually located there. Note that I've been working remotely full-time for years, and never plan to go back. I am, however, under no illusions that my salary is a permanent thing.
  - bachmeier 6y ago
    > Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment." I think you missed the point I was making. Have you seen two employees living in the same city, with one paid more because he decided to buy a more expensive house? I'm aware that there are regional differences, but they can be explained by factors like different productivity levels. This discussion is different - it's about the same employee living in two different locations.
    - SamReidHughes 6y ago
      The employees are in a different negotiating position. Google pays them as little as they can get away with.
thebean11 6y ago
So they were running a survey gauging whether it's possible to pay people less to work from home, but do we know the result of that survey? Maybe they find out that they cannot hire the same talent for less money in Indiana.
- product50 6y ago
  No - they were running a survey to figure out employee's interests in wfh permanently across US - but at the same time being very clear that the salary will be adjusted based on where they are.
  - thebean11 6y ago
    Right but their ability to actually do that is subject to market forces. To me it's not a given they could do it. I'm not claiming they can't, but their intention isn't proof either way.
    - product50 6y ago
      Why don't you try living in Ohio and then demand $500k salaries which big-tech pays to software engineers and see if it works out?
      - thebean11 6y ago
        1. I'm sure there are software engineers in Ohio working remotely making 500k and more, but no it's not the norm. 2. That's not the point: we're talking about a hypothetical shift where top software engineering talent is fleeing the bay area. If that talent moves to Ohio, and there is no cheaper alternative of similar quality, Google might not have a choice. Again, not pretending like I know what's going to happen. My point is that big-tech doesn't have total power in setting prices. If at any point in the last 20 years they could have hired qualified engineers in Ohio for $100k they would have already done it.
        6y ago
bitbuilder 6y ago
I'd be really interested in how they plan to implement this. I'd certainly hope it would be more sophisticated than a linear adjustment of salary based on differences in the cost of living. I live and work out of St. Louis at the moment, and I've spent a bit of time evaluating FAANG salaries in relation to the cost of living in their relevant areas. While in most cases it seemed I could maybe get 1.5x to 2x my St. Louis salary, I was looking at around a 5x increase in housing costs alone. It never made any sort of financial sense to make the move (as much as I would've liked to). Of course the most sensible approach would be to offer just above market rate in whatever the local market is. That can be awfully hard to determine though. It's much more a function of local supply and demand than anything that correlates to cost of living.
sizzle 6y ago
What's stopping someone from moving to SF for higher comp on hiring, then getting a P.O. box or friend's mailing address in SF and moving back to work from lower cost area after some time? Is your employer really going to decrease your salary after the fact? Can you file taxes in your lower cost of living state after you lock in your high SF comp package and never notify your employer but still pay your taxes in the state you moved back to? Note: I don't condone illegal behavior just thinking of edge cases that benefit us tech workers.
- spydum 6y ago
  Mostly the tax fraud parts of your statement. However I'm sure it happens
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - sizzle 6y ago
    What if you create some business entity in that state?
  - yojo 6y ago
    Would it be tax fraud if you’re still in California? You record your address when you file with the state, I don’t think the state cares where you get your mail. I guess the employer could have some contractual terms requiring your address to be at some location. I’ve never seen that though.
    - ojbyrne 6y ago
      I think you just change your address if you move within the state. I don’t think companies track your address as long as you’re the same for taxation. That’s why people do insane 2 hour commutes.
- bronco21016 6y ago
  Aka tax evasion? Your local government probably wouldn’t be thrilled about that. https://www.postbulletin.com/more-northwest-pilots-accused-of-tax-evasion/article_4350c38d-aeb4-5dea-bef4-c88d2720e7d2.html https://www.postbulletin.com/more-northwest-pilots-accused-o...
lumost 6y ago
Most FAANG have a high cost of living band and a regular band. The high cost of living band pays 15-30% extra for living in the Bay Area/NYC. Everywhere else pays the same whether it's Boston, Detroit, or the middle of the desert.
- jameslevy 6y ago
  The Bay Area can mean Pacific Heights, or Concord. Probably half or 2/3 the cost of living in the latter.
- product50 6y ago
  Yeah - just that FAANG don't hire people outside top cities. So your middle of desert point is misleading.
  - lumost 6y ago
    most faang don't hire remote - but they do allow people to work remote in certain circumstances, they also tend to maintain smaller engineering offices all over the country so transferring isn't as difficult once your in.
habosa 6y ago
Google pay varies by office (quite a lot) and they're upfront about it but it has nothing to do with housing costs. It's based on the cost of hiring in the local market. I am voluntarily transferring from Google SF to Google London and I am taking a significant salary cut. London isn't really any cheaper to live in, but you can hire good developers for much less in Europe.

RhodesianHunter 6y ago

They didn't say that though, so the whole "you're wrong" is unwarranted. They said local companies will have to compete with FANG salaries. To your point these would likely be cost of living adjusted, but would almost certainly be higher than the current average in most Midwestern cities.

product50 6y ago
Lol - let us see. You must me dreaming if you are expecting no significant cost of living adjustments on salaries.
- RhodesianHunter 6y ago
  You are again completely misreading what I said, which clearly states that there will be cost of living adjustments, but that the salaries are still likely to be higher than non-tech hub averages. Not every online conversation has to be a fight with winners and losers.
  - product50 6y ago
    You are right. I was reacting based on your first sentence. Sorry about that!

longtimegoogler 6y ago

Yup. Salaries are based on the local market.

asdfaoeu 6y ago
This is true but salaries aren't based on cost of living exclusively they are based on demand as well. If more companies shift to remote work that will spread demand across the US driving up salaries in low cost of living areas and reducing them in high cost of living areas.
xur17 6y ago
True, but I'd argue that remote working exists in a market of its own, somewhere between sf rates and local market rates.

bachmeier 6y ago

Just want to point out that there's no rational basis for this argument unless the employee in SF is much more productive. To put it another way, do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs for employees living in SF? Have you ever heard of differences across employees simply because one of them has a more expensive house?

qroshan 6y ago
Dude in SF is more likely to bump into other dudes in SF and talk about system design, math or AI or competition or best practices or stacks. Dude in Indiana doesn't have that opportunity. You'd say but Internet, but things like motivation, inspiration, innovation comes from a certain external factors (which we still haven't figured out). That's why even with massive internet penetration, it's the tech hubs that keep pumping winners and hits
tspike 6y ago
> do you currently see pay adjustments based on housing costs Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment." The rational basis is that the employer sees strategic value in having a physical presence in a given locale, and are willing to pay a premium to have employees actually located there. Note that I've been working remotely full-time for years, and never plan to go back. I am, however, under no illusions that my salary is a permanent thing.
- bachmeier 6y ago
  > Yes, it's commonly referred to as "cost of living adjustment." I think you missed the point I was making. Have you seen two employees living in the same city, with one paid more because he decided to buy a more expensive house? I'm aware that there are regional differences, but they can be explained by factors like different productivity levels. This discussion is different - it's about the same employee living in two different locations.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    The employees are in a different negotiating position. Google pays them as little as they can get away with.

thebean11 6y ago

So they were running a survey gauging whether it's possible to pay people less to work from home, but do we know the result of that survey? Maybe they find out that they cannot hire the same talent for less money in Indiana.

product50 6y ago
No - they were running a survey to figure out employee's interests in wfh permanently across US - but at the same time being very clear that the salary will be adjusted based on where they are.
- thebean11 6y ago
  Right but their ability to actually do that is subject to market forces. To me it's not a given they could do it. I'm not claiming they can't, but their intention isn't proof either way.
  - product50 6y ago
    Why don't you try living in Ohio and then demand $500k salaries which big-tech pays to software engineers and see if it works out?
    - thebean11 6y ago
      1. I'm sure there are software engineers in Ohio working remotely making 500k and more, but no it's not the norm. 2. That's not the point: we're talking about a hypothetical shift where top software engineering talent is fleeing the bay area. If that talent moves to Ohio, and there is no cheaper alternative of similar quality, Google might not have a choice. Again, not pretending like I know what's going to happen. My point is that big-tech doesn't have total power in setting prices. If at any point in the last 20 years they could have hired qualified engineers in Ohio for $100k they would have already done it.
      - 6y ago

bitbuilder 6y ago

I'd be really interested in how they plan to implement this. I'd certainly hope it would be more sophisticated than a linear adjustment of salary based on differences in the cost of living. I live and work out of St. Louis at the moment, and I've spent a bit of time evaluating FAANG salaries in relation to the cost of living in their relevant areas. While in most cases it seemed I could maybe get 1.5x to 2x my St. Louis salary, I was looking at around a 5x increase in housing costs alone. It never made any sort of financial sense to make the move (as much as I would've liked to). Of course the most sensible approach would be to offer just above market rate in whatever the local market is. That can be awfully hard to determine though. It's much more a function of local supply and demand than anything that correlates to cost of living.

sizzle 6y ago

What's stopping someone from moving to SF for higher comp on hiring, then getting a P.O. box or friend's mailing address in SF and moving back to work from lower cost area after some time? Is your employer really going to decrease your salary after the fact? Can you file taxes in your lower cost of living state after you lock in your high SF comp package and never notify your employer but still pay your taxes in the state you moved back to? Note: I don't condone illegal behavior just thinking of edge cases that benefit us tech workers.

spydum 6y ago
Mostly the tax fraud parts of your statement. However I'm sure it happens
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sizzle 6y ago
  What if you create some business entity in that state?
- yojo 6y ago
  Would it be tax fraud if you’re still in California? You record your address when you file with the state, I don’t think the state cares where you get your mail. I guess the employer could have some contractual terms requiring your address to be at some location. I’ve never seen that though.
  - ojbyrne 6y ago
    I think you just change your address if you move within the state. I don’t think companies track your address as long as you’re the same for taxation. That’s why people do insane 2 hour commutes.
bronco21016 6y ago
Aka tax evasion? Your local government probably wouldn’t be thrilled about that. https://www.postbulletin.com/more-northwest-pilots-accused-of-tax-evasion/article_4350c38d-aeb4-5dea-bef4-c88d2720e7d2.html https://www.postbulletin.com/more-northwest-pilots-accused-o...

lumost 6y ago

Most FAANG have a high cost of living band and a regular band. The high cost of living band pays 15-30% extra for living in the Bay Area/NYC. Everywhere else pays the same whether it's Boston, Detroit, or the middle of the desert.

jameslevy 6y ago
The Bay Area can mean Pacific Heights, or Concord. Probably half or 2/3 the cost of living in the latter.
product50 6y ago
Yeah - just that FAANG don't hire people outside top cities. So your middle of desert point is misleading.
- lumost 6y ago
  most faang don't hire remote - but they do allow people to work remote in certain circumstances, they also tend to maintain smaller engineering offices all over the country so transferring isn't as difficult once your in.

habosa 6y ago

Google pay varies by office (quite a lot) and they're upfront about it but it has nothing to do with housing costs. It's based on the cost of hiring in the local market. I am voluntarily transferring from Google SF to Google London and I am taking a significant salary cut. London isn't really any cheaper to live in, but you can hire good developers for much less in Europe.