11 ms·

I’m working on my PPL right now, and in my aviation circle we can’t wait until Flight Sim 2020 is released. Even at $60 + hardware controllers, it’s a steal co

I’m working on my PPL right now, and in my aviation circle we can’t wait until Flight Sim 2020 is released. Even at $60 + hardware controllers, it’s a steal compared to actually flying a small single-prop.

LeoNatan25 6y ago
Adding VR to the mix should be even more valuable to you. They said they intend to support VR eventually in FS2020.
- nradov 6y ago
  VR will be fun for some players but I expect many will struggle with motion sickness.
  - Filligree 6y ago
    This is a best-case for VR -- sitting still in a cockpit. The sensory input should be almost identical to real life, so I wouldn't think nausea will be a big issue.
    - LeoNatan25 6y ago
      I think the lack of forces, especially in smaller, more agile plains, can introduce some motion sickness in experienced pilots who are familiar with, and their body expects, the forces they ought to be feeling when taking off, doing a roll, etc. But still, until artificial gravity can be generated, this is the closest it will come for the vast majority of people.
      - m4rtink 6y ago
        There are some small/ultra light aircraft simulators that get pretty close, being able to rotate the cockpit left right up and down. Still, can't really simulate directional acceleration/deceleration with possibly short bumps like landing gear contacting the ground and similar. But definitely, any pilot will tell you that feeling all the forces is actually big part of good piloting, as you can feel what the airplane is experiencing & act accordingly. I took a ride in some small planes (a 4 person two motor plane and a glider) as well as an advanced small plane simulator and really, the simulator was good but not really comparable. Not to mention extreme cases like air racing or aerial acrobatics where the forces are so extreme that they might prevent the pilot from having enough strength to execute control input or possibly even make them black out.
        briandear 6y ago
        > any pilot will tell you that feeling all the forces is actually big part of good piloting, as you can feel what the airplane is experiencing & act accordingly. Going to argue against that generally. Vestibular disorientation is a significant killer of pilots. In instrument flying, you specifically train to ignore those sensations. Fly the numbers, not the feelings.
        m4rtink 6y ago
        Yep, that's a good point - it can certainly also be a big problem in poor visibility or other cases where you get disoriented.
      - teabee89 6y ago
        At Kennedy Space Center, the Space Shuttle simulation was pretty amazing. I believe the trick was to make us think we were sitting at rest at a 90 degree angle, when in fact it must have been less, such that when the shuttle did take off in the simulation the seat made an even higher angle (+ shaking). And the sudden lowering of the angle (when engine cuts off and we're supposed to float) was a pretty damn amazing illusion too. I definitely recommend it.
        JshWright 6y ago
        Yeah, I'd love to see a "behind the scenes" of that ride (it's entirely possible one exists, I haven't actually looked...) I've ridden it several times, and while I intellectually understand how it must work, it's still super convincing.
      - erikbye 6y ago
        For simracing and VR, a 6dof motion rig decreases motion sickness.
        kunkurus 6y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLw0Jh-Ab5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLw0Jh-Ab5E
  - oauea 6y ago
    Why would a game like this have any motion sickness?
    - topkai22 6y ago
      Maybe not motion sickness, but I’ve yet to wear a VR set I can enjoy for more than 10-15 minutes at a time. I think some people just adapt to stereoscopic illusion better than others- I struggle during 3D movies too.
      - aidenn0 6y ago
        There is a small fraction (iirc 10-20%) of the population for whom a disparity between accommodation (focus) and binocular vision (what 3d movies do) causes headaches and nausea. This is why most 3d movies have very little happen in the virtual space between you and the screen. Since more than about 7 meters away is basically all the same final distance, it's fine. That being said, it's the stuff flying at you that makes 3d seem worth the extra money, so they try to balance it. Some people will still get very ill even with the small amount that movies do.
    - LeoNatan25 6y ago
      The term “motion sickness” describes the disparity between sensations that the mind expects to accompany what the eyes are seeing, but those sensations are not there. In a flight simulation, things like gravity, acceleration, etc. are not really possible to simulate.
      - sowbug 6y ago
        The physiological basis is that a disagreement between the inner ear's sense of balance and the eye's perception of orientation is an early signal of having ingested a neurotoxin. Thus vomiting to expel whatever you just ate is a good first response.
    - Someone 6y ago
      Technically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_sickness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_sickness, but I think motion sickness suffices as a generic term. I also think discriminating between motion sickness, flight simulator sickness and virtual reality sickness is splitting hairs, or at least a gradual difference. One could claim motion sickness requires real motion, but you have that in a good flight simulator, too, and most VR setups allow one to, at the least, move one’s head freely.
  - james_s_tayler 6y ago
    Probably not in a cockpit. At least in my experience having that cockpit as a static frame of reference really makes it quite a smooth experience. Motion sickness isn't something I experience a tonne of in VR unless it's falling from up high or those rollercoaster simulations. There is a flying VR game I used to play for awhile. Controls were a little difficult but it was quite fun and motion sickness wasn't a problem (in my case at least).
    - squeaky-clean 6y ago
      I have a steering wheel and pedal setup that I use in VR, and it's the lack of correct G-forces that really get to you. I'm pretty good with motion sickness in VR, but Asseto Corsa took me about 3 hours of 10 minute intervals before I could take a corner at high speed, or slam the brakes without getting very very nauseous. I can see it being comfortable once you're in the air, but takeoff and landing might feel very weird :P
      - james_s_tayler 6y ago
        You just reminded me I used to play Dirt Rally VR quite a bit. That's amazing in VR. The sense of presence is incredible. Maybe I just don't suffer motion sickness as much? Funnily enough I've been playing Satisfactory a lot lately and I keep losing my stomach whenever I jump off really high places. I guess even non-VR games can affect you too!
    - short_sells_poo 6y ago
      I'm not an expert but I thought a large part of motion sickness comes from the fact that you perceive motion visually but there is no confirmation from the inner ear (as in real life these two sensory inputs work together to maintain your balance). The other way it's also true (sea sickness), where the inner ear registers motion (the ship bobbing due to waves), but you don't see that you are moving (doubly so if you are inside) so again there's conflicting sensory input. I don't suffer from seasickness normally, but a few years back we had a knotted up anchor chain so I went in to service the winch and there was a bit of a swell outside. In about 30 minutes I was quite ill. Once I fixed the winch and went out it all dissipated quickly when I could see the sea & horizon moving again.
joezydeco 6y ago
My son is also working on his PPL and has been flying 172s in XPlane 11 for the last year or so. At Oshkosh he jumped into a $250,000 Frasca simulator and did a complete flight with no assistance /and/ the sales guy turning off various parts of the avionics. He’s 15. TLDR don’t wait around for Microsoft.
- abrookewood 6y ago
  What sort of pedals etc does he have set up?
  - joezydeco 6y ago
    Logitech G yoke, switch panel, and rudder pedals. Nothing fancy, works just fine (by his standards)
- selectodude 6y ago
  Be careful, too much time in a simulator and not enough time in an airplane can teach bad habits.
  - alteria 6y ago
    I'm curious, what kinds of pitfalls can occur?
    - sowbug 6y ago
      Uncoordinated flight (roughly, not being turned in the direction you're flying) feels very weird when you're experiencing it for real. It's also an ingredient of a deadly spin if you let other things also get out of control. On a sim, you won't experience much more than a certain dial reading a certain reading, and the plane will more or less fly as expected. It's important to learn coordinated flight "by the seat of your pants" to have the habit of adjusting the rudder ingrained in your muscle memory. There are other feelings, such as buffeting before a stall, that you'll miss on a sim. But flight training is very explicit about those situations, so you'll learn them when transitioning to a real plane. Avoiding uncoordinated flight is something that pervades your whole flight experience; it might be hard to retrofit it onto a sim-trained student. There are other habits, but that's the most notable one when I'm comparing the two environments.
zeroc8 6y ago
I've been a flight instructor in my twenties but then got out of flying due to monetary and health reasons. I've just bought a honeycomb yoke together with X-Plane 11. It is close to perfect, when it comes to simulation. Back when I flew, we didn't have the sophisticated avionics, so it's been quite a challenge to adjust to the modern glass cockpit, especially in an IFR environment. Now I just wish I could fly the Cirrus Vision jet in real life, like some Youtubers do. Haven't tried the new MS flightsim yet. I hope they've put as much effort into physics as they did in visuals. Can't wait to give it a try.
imutemyteam 6y ago
I think the real cost will be the broadband. The whole map is 2 petabytes large, so each area has to be loaded seperately which will take up a lot of space.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  Its probably not too bad. You only see a tiny slice at a time. They must have pre-cached regions, as you specified ahead of time where you will fly.
matoro 6y ago
Would you mind sharing what setup you have for the hardware controllers? I'm looking at getting this setup for a friend but I'm not sure where to go to get the peripherals.
- acwan93 6y ago
  I don’t have one yet, but one of the peer comments talked about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23137228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23137228

LeoNatan25 6y ago

Adding VR to the mix should be even more valuable to you. They said they intend to support VR eventually in FS2020.

nradov 6y ago
VR will be fun for some players but I expect many will struggle with motion sickness.
- Filligree 6y ago
  This is a best-case for VR -- sitting still in a cockpit. The sensory input should be almost identical to real life, so I wouldn't think nausea will be a big issue.
  - LeoNatan25 6y ago
    I think the lack of forces, especially in smaller, more agile plains, can introduce some motion sickness in experienced pilots who are familiar with, and their body expects, the forces they ought to be feeling when taking off, doing a roll, etc. But still, until artificial gravity can be generated, this is the closest it will come for the vast majority of people.
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      There are some small/ultra light aircraft simulators that get pretty close, being able to rotate the cockpit left right up and down. Still, can't really simulate directional acceleration/deceleration with possibly short bumps like landing gear contacting the ground and similar. But definitely, any pilot will tell you that feeling all the forces is actually big part of good piloting, as you can feel what the airplane is experiencing & act accordingly. I took a ride in some small planes (a 4 person two motor plane and a glider) as well as an advanced small plane simulator and really, the simulator was good but not really comparable. Not to mention extreme cases like air racing or aerial acrobatics where the forces are so extreme that they might prevent the pilot from having enough strength to execute control input or possibly even make them black out.
      - briandear 6y ago
        > any pilot will tell you that feeling all the forces is actually big part of good piloting, as you can feel what the airplane is experiencing & act accordingly. Going to argue against that generally. Vestibular disorientation is a significant killer of pilots. In instrument flying, you specifically train to ignore those sensations. Fly the numbers, not the feelings.
        m4rtink 6y ago
        Yep, that's a good point - it can certainly also be a big problem in poor visibility or other cases where you get disoriented.
    - teabee89 6y ago
      At Kennedy Space Center, the Space Shuttle simulation was pretty amazing. I believe the trick was to make us think we were sitting at rest at a 90 degree angle, when in fact it must have been less, such that when the shuttle did take off in the simulation the seat made an even higher angle (+ shaking). And the sudden lowering of the angle (when engine cuts off and we're supposed to float) was a pretty damn amazing illusion too. I definitely recommend it.
      - JshWright 6y ago
        Yeah, I'd love to see a "behind the scenes" of that ride (it's entirely possible one exists, I haven't actually looked...) I've ridden it several times, and while I intellectually understand how it must work, it's still super convincing.
    - erikbye 6y ago
      For simracing and VR, a 6dof motion rig decreases motion sickness.
      - kunkurus 6y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLw0Jh-Ab5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLw0Jh-Ab5E
- oauea 6y ago
  Why would a game like this have any motion sickness?
  - topkai22 6y ago
    Maybe not motion sickness, but I’ve yet to wear a VR set I can enjoy for more than 10-15 minutes at a time. I think some people just adapt to stereoscopic illusion better than others- I struggle during 3D movies too.
    - aidenn0 6y ago
      There is a small fraction (iirc 10-20%) of the population for whom a disparity between accommodation (focus) and binocular vision (what 3d movies do) causes headaches and nausea. This is why most 3d movies have very little happen in the virtual space between you and the screen. Since more than about 7 meters away is basically all the same final distance, it's fine. That being said, it's the stuff flying at you that makes 3d seem worth the extra money, so they try to balance it. Some people will still get very ill even with the small amount that movies do.
  - LeoNatan25 6y ago
    The term “motion sickness” describes the disparity between sensations that the mind expects to accompany what the eyes are seeing, but those sensations are not there. In a flight simulation, things like gravity, acceleration, etc. are not really possible to simulate.
    - sowbug 6y ago
      The physiological basis is that a disagreement between the inner ear's sense of balance and the eye's perception of orientation is an early signal of having ingested a neurotoxin. Thus vomiting to expel whatever you just ate is a good first response.
  - Someone 6y ago
    Technically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_sickness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_sickness, but I think motion sickness suffices as a generic term. I also think discriminating between motion sickness, flight simulator sickness and virtual reality sickness is splitting hairs, or at least a gradual difference. One could claim motion sickness requires real motion, but you have that in a good flight simulator, too, and most VR setups allow one to, at the least, move one’s head freely.
- james_s_tayler 6y ago
  Probably not in a cockpit. At least in my experience having that cockpit as a static frame of reference really makes it quite a smooth experience. Motion sickness isn't something I experience a tonne of in VR unless it's falling from up high or those rollercoaster simulations. There is a flying VR game I used to play for awhile. Controls were a little difficult but it was quite fun and motion sickness wasn't a problem (in my case at least).
  - squeaky-clean 6y ago
    I have a steering wheel and pedal setup that I use in VR, and it's the lack of correct G-forces that really get to you. I'm pretty good with motion sickness in VR, but Asseto Corsa took me about 3 hours of 10 minute intervals before I could take a corner at high speed, or slam the brakes without getting very very nauseous. I can see it being comfortable once you're in the air, but takeoff and landing might feel very weird :P
    - james_s_tayler 6y ago
      You just reminded me I used to play Dirt Rally VR quite a bit. That's amazing in VR. The sense of presence is incredible. Maybe I just don't suffer motion sickness as much? Funnily enough I've been playing Satisfactory a lot lately and I keep losing my stomach whenever I jump off really high places. I guess even non-VR games can affect you too!
  - short_sells_poo 6y ago
    I'm not an expert but I thought a large part of motion sickness comes from the fact that you perceive motion visually but there is no confirmation from the inner ear (as in real life these two sensory inputs work together to maintain your balance). The other way it's also true (sea sickness), where the inner ear registers motion (the ship bobbing due to waves), but you don't see that you are moving (doubly so if you are inside) so again there's conflicting sensory input. I don't suffer from seasickness normally, but a few years back we had a knotted up anchor chain so I went in to service the winch and there was a bit of a swell outside. In about 30 minutes I was quite ill. Once I fixed the winch and went out it all dissipated quickly when I could see the sea & horizon moving again.

joezydeco 6y ago

My son is also working on his PPL and has been flying 172s in XPlane 11 for the last year or so. At Oshkosh he jumped into a $250,000 Frasca simulator and did a complete flight with no assistance /and/ the sales guy turning off various parts of the avionics. He’s 15. TLDR don’t wait around for Microsoft.

abrookewood 6y ago
What sort of pedals etc does he have set up?
- joezydeco 6y ago
  Logitech G yoke, switch panel, and rudder pedals. Nothing fancy, works just fine (by his standards)
selectodude 6y ago
Be careful, too much time in a simulator and not enough time in an airplane can teach bad habits.
- alteria 6y ago
  I'm curious, what kinds of pitfalls can occur?
  - sowbug 6y ago
    Uncoordinated flight (roughly, not being turned in the direction you're flying) feels very weird when you're experiencing it for real. It's also an ingredient of a deadly spin if you let other things also get out of control. On a sim, you won't experience much more than a certain dial reading a certain reading, and the plane will more or less fly as expected. It's important to learn coordinated flight "by the seat of your pants" to have the habit of adjusting the rudder ingrained in your muscle memory. There are other feelings, such as buffeting before a stall, that you'll miss on a sim. But flight training is very explicit about those situations, so you'll learn them when transitioning to a real plane. Avoiding uncoordinated flight is something that pervades your whole flight experience; it might be hard to retrofit it onto a sim-trained student. There are other habits, but that's the most notable one when I'm comparing the two environments.

zeroc8 6y ago

I've been a flight instructor in my twenties but then got out of flying due to monetary and health reasons. I've just bought a honeycomb yoke together with X-Plane 11. It is close to perfect, when it comes to simulation. Back when I flew, we didn't have the sophisticated avionics, so it's been quite a challenge to adjust to the modern glass cockpit, especially in an IFR environment. Now I just wish I could fly the Cirrus Vision jet in real life, like some Youtubers do. Haven't tried the new MS flightsim yet. I hope they've put as much effort into physics as they did in visuals. Can't wait to give it a try.

imutemyteam 6y ago

I think the real cost will be the broadband. The whole map is 2 petabytes large, so each area has to be loaded seperately which will take up a lot of space.

me_me_me 6y ago
Its probably not too bad. You only see a tiny slice at a time. They must have pre-cached regions, as you specified ahead of time where you will fly.

matoro 6y ago

Would you mind sharing what setup you have for the hardware controllers? I'm looking at getting this setup for a friend but I'm not sure where to go to get the peripherals.

acwan93 6y ago
I don’t have one yet, but one of the peer comments talked about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23137228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23137228