12 ms·

Using human brain tissue in lab, researchers show herpes link to Alzheimer’s

255 points by vo2maxer 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Big if true! This would mean that just as the Gardasil 9 vaccine prevents HPV, which leads to almost all forms of cervical cancer [1] (as well as others), a vaccine for HSV-1 might prevent someone from developing Alzheimer's later in life. There are HSV-2 vaccines in clinical trials [2], but I'm unaware of any HSV-1 vaccines as far along. Please chime in if you are aware! [1] https://www.nccc-online.org/hpvcervical-cancer/cervical-cancer-overview/ https://www.nccc-online.org/hpvcervical-cancer/cervical-canc... [2] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04222985 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04222985
- seesawtron 6y ago
  This paper only shows that brain-like lab grown tissue develops Amyloid-beta plaques (known to occur in patients with AD) to combat mircobial i.e. viral attack. There are a low of assumptions here: (1) Organoid tissue represents human-brain. Human (and mammalian) brain is a much more complex entity to be even remotely similar to this. (2) We do not know how amyloid-beta plaques are related to Alzheimer's Disease (AD) i.e. whether they are the cause of AD or a symptom that occurs when one has AD. All we know is the existence of these plauqes can occur before the symptoms of AD are seen (even upto 30 years before you are diagnoised with AD). Whether removal of plaques makes you AD free is a mystery. (3) HSV/Herpes virus might not be the only cause of formation of amyloid plauqes. There are tons of other microbial infections that have been shown to cause increase of plaques. But more research into the microbial theory of AD is definitely something that would shed more light on the interplay between microbes and the brain.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    All true, correlation does not equal causation, but it's still fun to speculate when it looks like there might be a relatively inexpensive path (ie a vaccine we're going to develop anyway) to success.
    - seesawtron 6y ago
      It is fun indeed to speculate that. One could even use this line of "imagination" to get big Pharma interested in investing in this line of fundamental research which, as we have been reminded more recently, is extremely crucial.
    - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
      I tend to feel like "fun speculation" around new science research feeds loads of incorrect information being spread. Which makes it not fun to me at all.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        If you're getting your health information solely from Hacker News, without any additional research or critical thinking, you should probably not do that. I'm not a domain expert (Virologist or otherwise in medicine), nor do I pretend to be, and I qualified my statement at the top of the thread ("might"). Everything else in my comment was factual.
        TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        I just don’t think wild speculation about science is fun. What is fun to me about science is fact based exploration. Hypothesis is great and conjecture has its place, but wild conjecture is not fun to me. You can feel otherwise and that’s okay!
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        I don't believe my original comment was wild conjecture (although it did lack a citation how I arrived at the hypothesis), but in keeping with your ideals as it relates to putting forth a thesis in a public forum: > We believe that HSV1 is a major contributory factor for Alzheimer’s disease and that it enters the brains of elderly people as their immune system declines with age. It then establishes a latent (dormant) infection, from which it is reactivated by events such as stress, a reduced immune system and brain inflammation induced by infection by other microbes. > Excitingly, successful prevention of Alzheimer’s disease by use of specific anti-herpes agents has now been demonstrated in a large-scale population study in Taiwan. Hopefully, information in other countries, if available, will yield similar results. https://theconversation.com/alzheimers-disease-mounting-evidence-that-herpes-virus-is-a-cause-104943 https://theconversation.com/alzheimers-disease-mounting-evid... (Alzheimer’s disease: mounting evidence that herpes virus is a cause) The author of the post is Ruth Itzhaki, Professor Emeritus of Molecular Neurobiology, University of Manchester This (in my opinion) would lead a reasonable person to believe that an HSV-1 vaccine would prevent the onset of Alzheimer’s (through the prevention of an HSV-1 infection), in a similar fashion to how the HPV vaccine prevents (among other cancers) cervical cancer. I hope you have found some value in this subthread.
- DocG 6y ago
  There is correlation between zoster vaccine and herpes simplex. This has correlation to lesser the outbreaks or make them stop altogether. I can attest to that. This is what some specialist doctors recommend for patient with bad herpes outbreaks. I guess this would be already good starting point. Example source (pdf): https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/A151218DG-WH-edited.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjDpcvT_J_pAhWR7KYKHf86DmEQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0vRe65SxSbvhyePII_HMaX https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/...
  - velosol 6y ago
    Have you intentionally exposed yourself to your previous triggers (assuming you had them)? How long has it been since you had the zoster vaccine? Were you of an on-label age for the zoster vaccine at receipt or was it off-label usage? Put another way did you receive Varivax or Zostavax dosing and were you in the on-label group (1-50 for Varivax and 50+ for Zostavax)? The data isn't great but there's a fair bit of anecdata as you report and in your link that suggests there might be some protection against HSV from the VZV vaccines, possibly based on genetics or age of recipients. Also your link was broken for me but the below might work. https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/index.php/2016/03/10/varicella-zoster-vaccine-and-herpes-simplex-virus-is-there-cross-immunity/ https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/index.php/2016/03/10/varice...
    - DocG 6y ago
      I've had outbreaks but they were way less severe after that. I'm under 30. This recommendation came from doctor who specializes in herpes. She did warn me it might not work, but she has seen overall good results -outbreaks are less severe, rarer, or dissapear altogether. I think it's been around five years. There was a paper also on that, but couldn't find.
      - velosol 6y ago
        Thank you for the reply - I last looked into it for someone before the UCLA article came out and their doctor wasn't convinced by the French study but also wasn't completely against it. The person opted to not get the vaccine at that time. More and more it seems like the potential benefit is worth any side effects.
- snazz 6y ago
  Given the extremely high rates of HSV-1 infection (roughly half of everyone 14-49 and more among older people [0]), I'm guessing that it would be difficult to eradicate it using a vaccine (although I'm certainly not an expert). As a side note, the HPV vaccine only protects against strains 16 and 18 (with some also providing protection against types 6 and 11). That covers the majority of the strains that cause cancer, but it certainly doesn't prevent HPV infections altogether. Remember that HPV is the same virus that causes common and plantar warts as well. A Wikipedia quote: "Most people acquire genital HPV infections at some point in their lives, and about 10% of women are currently infected.[25] A large increase in the incidence of genital HPV infection occurs at the age when individuals begin to engage in sexual activity. As with cutaneous HPVs, immunity to genital HPV is believed to be specific to a specific strain of HPV."[1] I don't think it's possible to get rid of either virus very easily, although vaccines that target the most dangerous types are a good defense. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db304.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db304.htm [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > Given the extremely high rates of HSV-1 infection (roughly half of everyone 14-49 and more among older people [0]), I'm guessing that it would be difficult to eradicate it using a vaccine (although I'm certainly not an expert). True, it'd be similar to Australia where their cervical cancer rates will decline over decades as older people die and for younger people [1], the HPV vaccine uptake rate was very high. Folks with HSV-1 are likely stuck with it for life unless CRISPR comes to the rescue. > As a side note, the HPV vaccine only protects against strains 16 and 18 (with some also providing protection against types 6 and 11). That covers the majority of the strains that cause cancer, but it certainly doesn't prevent HPV infections altogether. Remember that HPV is the same virus that causes common and plantar warts as well. "GARDASIL 9 is a vaccine indicated in females and males 9 through 45 years of age for the prevention of cervical, vulvar, vaginal, and anal cancers caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) Types 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58; precancerous or dysplastic lesions caused by HPV Types 6, 11, 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58; and genital warts caused by HPV Types 6 and 11." https://www.merckvaccines.com/gardasil9/ https://www.merckvaccines.com/gardasil9/ Disclaimer: I'm a male in my mid 30s who has had Gardasil 9 administered by a medical professional. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/03/australia-on-track-to-wipe-out-cervical-cancer-within-20-years https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/03/australia-on... (The Guardian: "Australia on track to wipe out cervical cancer within 20 years" [2018])
winrid 6y ago
So what does this mean if you get a cold sore every year or two? You're more likely to get Alzheimer's?
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  It means you’re not getting enough lysine at those times.
  - mylons 6y ago
    Source on info? Can you supplement with lysine?
    - tejtm 6y ago
      Only anecdotal, but yes. Supplement before if I know I will be increasing UV exposure. e.g. visiting high desert Visiting know stressful environment. (choose your own adventure) Or if I think I might be starting to feel one coming on. Outbreaks in the decades after are way down from outbreaks from the decades before, but please do remember correlation is not causation and becoming a person who can consider mitigation may be more significant then the particular ritual. Oh and prescription anti-virals work wonders.
    - sephlietz 6y ago
      No (I think). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461191/
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      Not really efficaceous: https://www.cochrane.org/CD010095/SKIN_measures-preventing-cold-sores https://www.cochrane.org/CD010095/SKIN_measures-preventing-c... My vet said the same (chronic respiratory problems in cats are often caused by feline herpesvirus). The effect on the cat is at best slight.
    - pixelpoet 6y ago
      I'm not sure if anecdotes are allowed or welcomed, hope this is okay: Around 2003 I learnt about lysine having something to do with preventing HSV-1, so I got some and took some large doses until the bottle was finished. Haven't had a cold sore since, and I was getting them ~yearly before. Sometimes I can feel the tingling and think shiiit, here it comes again finally, but I never really had a proper breakout. Also, the more I hear about the HSV/Alzheimer's link, the more I freak out about my shitty memory :(
_prototype_ 6y ago
So according to WHO, 67% of people older than 50 have Herpes 1: https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-simplex-virus https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-s... How do you account for the disparity between the massive infection rate and the relatively low Alzheimer's rate?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vikramkr 6y ago
  They might not be old enough for it to matter yet, and we might see numbers approaching that 67% as people live longer. https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/what-causes-alzheimers-disease#risk https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/what-causes-alzheimers-diseas... "Older age does not cause Alzheimer’s, but it is the most important known risk factor for the disease. The number of people with Alzheimer’s disease doubles about every 5 years beyond age 65. About one-third of all people age 85 and older may have Alzheimer's disease." (emphasis mine) Perhaps if we beat cancer and cardiovascular diseases etc and see human lifespans reaching 100+ years old, we'll see close to 67% of people at that age get Alzheimer's.
- seesawtron 6y ago
  I don't think one should extrapolate this study on a lab-grown human-like tissue to mammals like rodents in the first place. Extrapolation to humans is even more bizzare.
- ranDOMscripts 6y ago
  Maybe it's like prostate cancer in that it changes so slowly that often something else kills you long before the prostate cancer has a chance to? [0] [0]https://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/understanding-prostate-changes#prostate-cancer https://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/understanding-prostate...
- vmception 6y ago
  The article covers this question, they think it is just a factor. A funnel towards Alzheimer's that a lot of people still end up getting to the bottom of.
vikramkr 6y ago
Here's the original publication. The paper is actually more focused on the 3d engineered brain model and is titled "A 3d human brain-like tissue model of herpes-induced Alzheimer's disease": https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/19/eaay8828 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/19/eaay8828 The publication actually seems to highlight the demonstration of the 3d brain Alzheimers model as more of what the accomplishment of the paper is (as compared to a demonstration of a herpes/Alzheimers link). Studying Alzheimer's is really difficult because the mouse models etc that we have today are particularly poor for this disease case, which means we can barely rely on any preclinical work done in these models in determing whether or not a drug is going to work in clinical trials. Better models to study Alzheimer's will be very important in fighting the disease. For more publications on the 3d model, here is what the paper cited in its methods section for how they made the brain-like structures: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213671116301412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221367111... https://www.nature.com/articles/nprot.2015.091 https://www.nature.com/articles/nprot.2015.091
- Natsu 6y ago
  Thanks for linking that, the first thing I wondered when they said "herpes" was "which one"? Looks like the answer to that is herpes simplex virus type I (HSV-1)
  - vmception 6y ago
    the statnews article says that too
  - guiambros 6y ago
    Also relevant: > “Active [herpes] infection may not be a requirement for Alzheimer’s disease,” Kaplan and his colleagues wrote. A history of herpes infection might be “sufficient to initiate Alzheimer’s.” > But not in everyone. An estimated two-thirds of people 50 and younger are infected with HSV-1. Although nothing close to that number will develop Alzheimer’s from a virus or anything else, scientists aren’t sure what combination of genetics, lifestyle, and other factors determines who will.
- 6y ago
nostromo 6y ago
This is my primary concern with SARSCoV2. Seeing how HPV can manifest in cancer, how HSV-1 can lead to Alzheimer’s, or how VZV (chickenpox) can flare up later in life as Shingles. Edit: thanks for the helpful information below!
- vikramkr 6y ago
  So far, the coronaviruses don't seem to establish latency in the same way that HPV does. And the chickenpox virus, VZV, is actually also a herpesvirus, along with the Epstein Barr virus and CMV (you might know them as mono), and all those viruses share the characteristics of having latent forms that persist and can re-emerge. While we need to keep our eyes open with SARS-COV-2, especially on cases of potential re-emergence of the virus, it doesn't currently have the type of biology that would make latent infections/these sorts of outcomes a major concern.
  - azernik 6y ago
    Indeed, the long-term effects I've seen researchers express more concern over are simpler. The disease causes quite a lot of damage to the lungs and circulatory system, and messes with brain oxygen levels. Not all of that damage is easily repaired by the body.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Little I've gleaned, HPV is a DNA virus. Those can easily become latent. Where coronaviruses are RNA viruses which don't appear too. A couple of conronavirurs cause mild colds they don't appear to stick around. So you would assume SARS-COV2 to behave the same way. Also the flu is a segmented RNA virus. The RNA is composed of segments. Which allows it to mutate by shuffling those segments with other strains. Including zoonotic strains. Coronaviruses have a single RNA strand and so don't shuffle.
    - vikramkr 6y ago
      It's not necessarily an rna vs dna thing. HIV is an rna virus and notoriously goes latent.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
weiming 6y ago
HSV always seemed particularly poorly understood in the society to me, e.g. with many people getting it as children due to careless parents/extended family, and the benign branding of "cold sore" as if it is related to a cold. Given that the vaccine for 1 or 2 has proved to be extremely challenging, always wondered if the public simply being more well-informed on this topic could help reduce the incidence in the population. Asymptomatic shedding of HSV has to be considered, too. "Transmission commonly occurs from contact with an infected partner who does not have visible lesions and who may not know that he or she is infected. In persons with asymptomatic HSV-2 infections, genital HSV shedding occurs on 10.2% of days, compared to 20.1% of days among those with symptomatic infections." (https://www.cdc.gov/std/herpes/stdfact-herpes-detailed.htm https://www.cdc.gov/std/herpes/stdfact-herpes-detailed.htm)
- morningcovfefe 6y ago
  It's called Herpese Simplex.. but there's nothing simple about it!
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    Future Man reference.
    - Supermancho 6y ago
      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4975856/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4975856/
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  > e.g. with many people getting it as children due to careless parents/extended family Puhleeze. HSV is present in the majority of the population. Branding parents as "careless" because their children get it is ridiculous.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
01100011 6y ago
I am very curious to see where this research goes. At the risk of sounding like an absolute nut-case, I've been experiencing significant cognitive decline since getting divorced and becoming sexually active. Granted, I went through a traumatic experience(divorce), developed sleep apnea(treated for ~2 years), and am in my mid-40s, so my concerns are probably unfounded. That said, I've had my apnea under control for some time, I've gotten fit, and tried every combination of supplements I can think of. My hormones and blood work all look fine. Maybe I'll try some valacyclovir and see what happens.
- forgot_again 6y ago
  Make sure you get 8 hours of sleep each night. Eat healthy. Exercise daily. Keep anxiety in check.
  - 01100011 6y ago
    Yep. I had insomnia for a while but that seems to be in check now. I started intermittent fasting a few weeks ago. No big changes yet, but I'll see how it goes. I also started 750mg of NMN. I've been going back to my old supplement regimen since it seemed to work better for me(moderate dose of vitamins, ashwagandha, CDP choline, high-DHA fish oil, NAC). I tried eliminating a lot of them for several months but it just seemed to accelerate the decline.
    - ohyes 6y ago
      How have you been measuring your cognitive decline? I have much shifted priorities from when I was in my 20s and was never that smart to begin with, so I’m note sure how I would even start to measure it.
      - 01100011 6y ago
        I wish I had an objective test. All I can go by is the difficulty I experience solving problems and my progress at work. There are certain classes of problems, boolean logic for instance, which used to be second nature to me but now leave me feeling blank and without even a hint of what the answer is. It even shows up in everyday life. I encounter more and more situations where I can't take the available information and generate a solid decision... I end up 'YOLO'ing it a lot and just taking a guess. I'm trying to come up with coping strategies, like writing things down and using visual tricks, but it doesn't work most of the time. It's frustrating and scary. I don't even know if I could transition from a tech role into management because I am so unfocused and unable to think.
Grazester 6y ago
I wonder if people above 60 should then start taking acyclovir if the have the virus in their system, as a potential preventative? They should do a study on this.
- ianai 6y ago
  Quick google does that’s been investigated
  - nickff 6y ago
    It looks like there are some ongoing studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32034019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32034019 https://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/clinical-trials/valacyclovir-mild-alzheimers-disease https://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/clinical-trials/valacyclo...
clircle 6y ago
I do not like headlines that say 'scientists show link between x and y'. It sounds too causal. Rather, journalists should try to write 'scientists observed x correlates with y'
- darawk 6y ago
  They didn't observe a correlation, though. They observed Herpes causing Alzheimers lesions in vitro.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    It should be very easy to test for correlation though since both conditions are usually medically documented. If the correlation is not that high then this story probably doesn’t mean all that much.
benibela 6y ago
Didn't they discover that periodontitis causes Alzheimer: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/1/eaau3333 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/1/eaau3333 Perhaps any infection that reaches the brain can cause Alzheimer and amyloid-beta plaques are there to fight the infection
- igravious 6y ago
  Came here to say this. Didn't that connection sweep through here a while back? I just checked. Turns out the herpes connection has been made before too: (1) Alzheimer's risk 10 times lower with herpes medication (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 (2) Some studies show an association between the herpes virus and Alzheimer’s (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265115 (3) Researchers Find Herpes Viruses in Brains Marked by Alzheimer's Disease (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17366591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17366591 (4) Link Between Alzheimer’s and Herpes (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17521994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17521994
  - Swannie 6y ago
    From my skimming of the OP, which references some of this research, I think these prior findings demonstrated strong correlation, but this is the first study that demonstrates some causal relationship.
    - igravious 6y ago
      Sweet, thanks – haven't had time to even skim yet!
- igravious 6y ago
  (1) Gum bacteria implicated in Alzheimer's and other diseases (1 year ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606025 (2) Gum disease–causing bacteria could spur Alzheimer’s (1 year ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987015
paypalcust83 6y ago
I worked with a guy researching the functional basis of Alzheimer's synthesizing many radiological technologies. It is likely a multi-factor pathological degenerative condition with many, many potential precipitating (no pun intended) causes, both nature and nurture. "The cure" is more than likely a holistic combination of many early lifestyle modifications including, but not limited to: diet, sleep, exercise, gene therapy, immunotherapy, medications, and supplements.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  That has been said about every illness that has subsequently been shown to have a single cause.
pharke 6y ago
So let me get this straight, the elevator pitch for this is: "We're going to make a micro-brain out of dick skin and spider webs so we can give it herpes and see if it gets Alzheimers." Just wanted to make sure.
- vmception 6y ago
  Seems accurate! Since you read the article, the real question to me is what is the brain protecting against? If amyloid plaques are a defense mechanism that happens to permanently block neuron function, then what happens if that the plaques don't form and the herpes infection spreads? There doesn't have to be an answer, evolution doesn't cause improvements, people reproduce before this happens.
ashtonkem 6y ago
At this point, is there anything not linked to Alzheimer’s? Herpes does make sense as a plausible factor, but I feel like I read “X linked to Alzheimer’s” every few months.
RocketSyntax 6y ago
Thank you for sharing this! We are working on the genomics of AD
just42 6y ago
Long-form article in NYTimes in July of last year. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/magazine/dead-pig-brains-reanimation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/magazine/dead-pig-brains-...
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255 points by vo2maxer 6y ago

Big if true! This would mean that just as the Gardasil 9 vaccine prevents HPV, which leads to almost all forms of cervical cancer [1] (as well as others), a vaccine for HSV-1 might prevent someone from developing Alzheimer's later in life. There are HSV-2 vaccines in clinical trials [2], but I'm unaware of any HSV-1 vaccines as far along. Please chime in if you are aware! [1] https://www.nccc-online.org/hpvcervical-cancer/cervical-cancer-overview/ https://www.nccc-online.org/hpvcervical-cancer/cervical-canc... [2] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04222985 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04222985

seesawtron 6y ago
This paper only shows that brain-like lab grown tissue develops Amyloid-beta plaques (known to occur in patients with AD) to combat mircobial i.e. viral attack. There are a low of assumptions here: (1) Organoid tissue represents human-brain. Human (and mammalian) brain is a much more complex entity to be even remotely similar to this. (2) We do not know how amyloid-beta plaques are related to Alzheimer's Disease (AD) i.e. whether they are the cause of AD or a symptom that occurs when one has AD. All we know is the existence of these plauqes can occur before the symptoms of AD are seen (even upto 30 years before you are diagnoised with AD). Whether removal of plaques makes you AD free is a mystery. (3) HSV/Herpes virus might not be the only cause of formation of amyloid plauqes. There are tons of other microbial infections that have been shown to cause increase of plaques. But more research into the microbial theory of AD is definitely something that would shed more light on the interplay between microbes and the brain.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  All true, correlation does not equal causation, but it's still fun to speculate when it looks like there might be a relatively inexpensive path (ie a vaccine we're going to develop anyway) to success.
  - seesawtron 6y ago
    It is fun indeed to speculate that. One could even use this line of "imagination" to get big Pharma interested in investing in this line of fundamental research which, as we have been reminded more recently, is extremely crucial.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    I tend to feel like "fun speculation" around new science research feeds loads of incorrect information being spread. Which makes it not fun to me at all.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      If you're getting your health information solely from Hacker News, without any additional research or critical thinking, you should probably not do that. I'm not a domain expert (Virologist or otherwise in medicine), nor do I pretend to be, and I qualified my statement at the top of the thread ("might"). Everything else in my comment was factual.
      - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
        I just don’t think wild speculation about science is fun. What is fun to me about science is fact based exploration. Hypothesis is great and conjecture has its place, but wild conjecture is not fun to me. You can feel otherwise and that’s okay!
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        I don't believe my original comment was wild conjecture (although it did lack a citation how I arrived at the hypothesis), but in keeping with your ideals as it relates to putting forth a thesis in a public forum: > We believe that HSV1 is a major contributory factor for Alzheimer’s disease and that it enters the brains of elderly people as their immune system declines with age. It then establishes a latent (dormant) infection, from which it is reactivated by events such as stress, a reduced immune system and brain inflammation induced by infection by other microbes. > Excitingly, successful prevention of Alzheimer’s disease by use of specific anti-herpes agents has now been demonstrated in a large-scale population study in Taiwan. Hopefully, information in other countries, if available, will yield similar results. https://theconversation.com/alzheimers-disease-mounting-evidence-that-herpes-virus-is-a-cause-104943 https://theconversation.com/alzheimers-disease-mounting-evid... (Alzheimer’s disease: mounting evidence that herpes virus is a cause) The author of the post is Ruth Itzhaki, Professor Emeritus of Molecular Neurobiology, University of Manchester This (in my opinion) would lead a reasonable person to believe that an HSV-1 vaccine would prevent the onset of Alzheimer’s (through the prevention of an HSV-1 infection), in a similar fashion to how the HPV vaccine prevents (among other cancers) cervical cancer. I hope you have found some value in this subthread.
DocG 6y ago
There is correlation between zoster vaccine and herpes simplex. This has correlation to lesser the outbreaks or make them stop altogether. I can attest to that. This is what some specialist doctors recommend for patient with bad herpes outbreaks. I guess this would be already good starting point. Example source (pdf): https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/A151218DG-WH-edited.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjDpcvT_J_pAhWR7KYKHf86DmEQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0vRe65SxSbvhyePII_HMaX https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/...
- velosol 6y ago
  Have you intentionally exposed yourself to your previous triggers (assuming you had them)? How long has it been since you had the zoster vaccine? Were you of an on-label age for the zoster vaccine at receipt or was it off-label usage? Put another way did you receive Varivax or Zostavax dosing and were you in the on-label group (1-50 for Varivax and 50+ for Zostavax)? The data isn't great but there's a fair bit of anecdata as you report and in your link that suggests there might be some protection against HSV from the VZV vaccines, possibly based on genetics or age of recipients. Also your link was broken for me but the below might work. https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/index.php/2016/03/10/varicella-zoster-vaccine-and-herpes-simplex-virus-is-there-cross-immunity/ https://proceedings.med.ucla.edu/index.php/2016/03/10/varice...
  - DocG 6y ago
    I've had outbreaks but they were way less severe after that. I'm under 30. This recommendation came from doctor who specializes in herpes. She did warn me it might not work, but she has seen overall good results -outbreaks are less severe, rarer, or dissapear altogether. I think it's been around five years. There was a paper also on that, but couldn't find.
    - velosol 6y ago
      Thank you for the reply - I last looked into it for someone before the UCLA article came out and their doctor wasn't convinced by the French study but also wasn't completely against it. The person opted to not get the vaccine at that time. More and more it seems like the potential benefit is worth any side effects.
snazz 6y ago
Given the extremely high rates of HSV-1 infection (roughly half of everyone 14-49 and more among older people [0]), I'm guessing that it would be difficult to eradicate it using a vaccine (although I'm certainly not an expert). As a side note, the HPV vaccine only protects against strains 16 and 18 (with some also providing protection against types 6 and 11). That covers the majority of the strains that cause cancer, but it certainly doesn't prevent HPV infections altogether. Remember that HPV is the same virus that causes common and plantar warts as well. A Wikipedia quote: "Most people acquire genital HPV infections at some point in their lives, and about 10% of women are currently infected.[25] A large increase in the incidence of genital HPV infection occurs at the age when individuals begin to engage in sexual activity. As with cutaneous HPVs, immunity to genital HPV is believed to be specific to a specific strain of HPV."[1] I don't think it's possible to get rid of either virus very easily, although vaccines that target the most dangerous types are a good defense. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db304.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db304.htm [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_papillomavirus_infection
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > Given the extremely high rates of HSV-1 infection (roughly half of everyone 14-49 and more among older people [0]), I'm guessing that it would be difficult to eradicate it using a vaccine (although I'm certainly not an expert). True, it'd be similar to Australia where their cervical cancer rates will decline over decades as older people die and for younger people [1], the HPV vaccine uptake rate was very high. Folks with HSV-1 are likely stuck with it for life unless CRISPR comes to the rescue. > As a side note, the HPV vaccine only protects against strains 16 and 18 (with some also providing protection against types 6 and 11). That covers the majority of the strains that cause cancer, but it certainly doesn't prevent HPV infections altogether. Remember that HPV is the same virus that causes common and plantar warts as well. "GARDASIL 9 is a vaccine indicated in females and males 9 through 45 years of age for the prevention of cervical, vulvar, vaginal, and anal cancers caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) Types 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58; precancerous or dysplastic lesions caused by HPV Types 6, 11, 16, 18, 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58; and genital warts caused by HPV Types 6 and 11." https://www.merckvaccines.com/gardasil9/ https://www.merckvaccines.com/gardasil9/ Disclaimer: I'm a male in my mid 30s who has had Gardasil 9 administered by a medical professional. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/03/australia-on-track-to-wipe-out-cervical-cancer-within-20-years https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/03/australia-on... (The Guardian: "Australia on track to wipe out cervical cancer within 20 years" [2018])

winrid 6y ago

So what does this mean if you get a cold sore every year or two? You're more likely to get Alzheimer's?

TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
It means you’re not getting enough lysine at those times.
- mylons 6y ago
  Source on info? Can you supplement with lysine?
  - tejtm 6y ago
    Only anecdotal, but yes. Supplement before if I know I will be increasing UV exposure. e.g. visiting high desert Visiting know stressful environment. (choose your own adventure) Or if I think I might be starting to feel one coming on. Outbreaks in the decades after are way down from outbreaks from the decades before, but please do remember correlation is not causation and becoming a person who can consider mitigation may be more significant then the particular ritual. Oh and prescription anti-virals work wonders.
  - sephlietz 6y ago
    No (I think). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461191/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6461191/
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    Not really efficaceous: https://www.cochrane.org/CD010095/SKIN_measures-preventing-cold-sores https://www.cochrane.org/CD010095/SKIN_measures-preventing-c... My vet said the same (chronic respiratory problems in cats are often caused by feline herpesvirus). The effect on the cat is at best slight.
  - pixelpoet 6y ago
    I'm not sure if anecdotes are allowed or welcomed, hope this is okay: Around 2003 I learnt about lysine having something to do with preventing HSV-1, so I got some and took some large doses until the bottle was finished. Haven't had a cold sore since, and I was getting them ~yearly before. Sometimes I can feel the tingling and think shiiit, here it comes again finally, but I never really had a proper breakout. Also, the more I hear about the HSV/Alzheimer's link, the more I freak out about my shitty memory :(

_prototype_ 6y ago

So according to WHO, 67% of people older than 50 have Herpes 1: https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-simplex-virus https://www.who.int/en/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-s... How do you account for the disparity between the massive infection rate and the relatively low Alzheimer's rate?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
vikramkr 6y ago
They might not be old enough for it to matter yet, and we might see numbers approaching that 67% as people live longer. https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/what-causes-alzheimers-disease#risk https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/what-causes-alzheimers-diseas... "Older age does not cause Alzheimer’s, but it is the most important known risk factor for the disease. The number of people with Alzheimer’s disease doubles about every 5 years beyond age 65. About one-third of all people age 85 and older may have Alzheimer's disease." (emphasis mine) Perhaps if we beat cancer and cardiovascular diseases etc and see human lifespans reaching 100+ years old, we'll see close to 67% of people at that age get Alzheimer's.
seesawtron 6y ago
I don't think one should extrapolate this study on a lab-grown human-like tissue to mammals like rodents in the first place. Extrapolation to humans is even more bizzare.
ranDOMscripts 6y ago
Maybe it's like prostate cancer in that it changes so slowly that often something else kills you long before the prostate cancer has a chance to? [0] [0]https://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/understanding-prostate-changes#prostate-cancer https://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/understanding-prostate...
vmception 6y ago
The article covers this question, they think it is just a factor. A funnel towards Alzheimer's that a lot of people still end up getting to the bottom of.

vikramkr 6y ago

Here's the original publication. The paper is actually more focused on the 3d engineered brain model and is titled "A 3d human brain-like tissue model of herpes-induced Alzheimer's disease": https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/19/eaay8828 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/19/eaay8828 The publication actually seems to highlight the demonstration of the 3d brain Alzheimers model as more of what the accomplishment of the paper is (as compared to a demonstration of a herpes/Alzheimers link). Studying Alzheimer's is really difficult because the mouse models etc that we have today are particularly poor for this disease case, which means we can barely rely on any preclinical work done in these models in determing whether or not a drug is going to work in clinical trials. Better models to study Alzheimer's will be very important in fighting the disease. For more publications on the 3d model, here is what the paper cited in its methods section for how they made the brain-like structures: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213671116301412 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221367111... https://www.nature.com/articles/nprot.2015.091 https://www.nature.com/articles/nprot.2015.091

Natsu 6y ago
Thanks for linking that, the first thing I wondered when they said "herpes" was "which one"? Looks like the answer to that is herpes simplex virus type I (HSV-1)
- vmception 6y ago
  the statnews article says that too
- guiambros 6y ago
  Also relevant: > “Active [herpes] infection may not be a requirement for Alzheimer’s disease,” Kaplan and his colleagues wrote. A history of herpes infection might be “sufficient to initiate Alzheimer’s.” > But not in everyone. An estimated two-thirds of people 50 and younger are infected with HSV-1. Although nothing close to that number will develop Alzheimer’s from a virus or anything else, scientists aren’t sure what combination of genetics, lifestyle, and other factors determines who will.
6y ago

nostromo 6y ago

This is my primary concern with SARSCoV2. Seeing how HPV can manifest in cancer, how HSV-1 can lead to Alzheimer’s, or how VZV (chickenpox) can flare up later in life as Shingles. Edit: thanks for the helpful information below!

vikramkr 6y ago
So far, the coronaviruses don't seem to establish latency in the same way that HPV does. And the chickenpox virus, VZV, is actually also a herpesvirus, along with the Epstein Barr virus and CMV (you might know them as mono), and all those viruses share the characteristics of having latent forms that persist and can re-emerge. While we need to keep our eyes open with SARS-COV-2, especially on cases of potential re-emergence of the virus, it doesn't currently have the type of biology that would make latent infections/these sorts of outcomes a major concern.
- azernik 6y ago
  Indeed, the long-term effects I've seen researchers express more concern over are simpler. The disease causes quite a lot of damage to the lungs and circulatory system, and messes with brain oxygen levels. Not all of that damage is easily repaired by the body.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Little I've gleaned, HPV is a DNA virus. Those can easily become latent. Where coronaviruses are RNA viruses which don't appear too. A couple of conronavirurs cause mild colds they don't appear to stick around. So you would assume SARS-COV2 to behave the same way. Also the flu is a segmented RNA virus. The RNA is composed of segments. Which allows it to mutate by shuffling those segments with other strains. Including zoonotic strains. Coronaviruses have a single RNA strand and so don't shuffle.
  - vikramkr 6y ago
    It's not necessarily an rna vs dna thing. HIV is an rna virus and notoriously goes latent.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

weiming 6y ago

HSV always seemed particularly poorly understood in the society to me, e.g. with many people getting it as children due to careless parents/extended family, and the benign branding of "cold sore" as if it is related to a cold. Given that the vaccine for 1 or 2 has proved to be extremely challenging, always wondered if the public simply being more well-informed on this topic could help reduce the incidence in the population. Asymptomatic shedding of HSV has to be considered, too. "Transmission commonly occurs from contact with an infected partner who does not have visible lesions and who may not know that he or she is infected. In persons with asymptomatic HSV-2 infections, genital HSV shedding occurs on 10.2% of days, compared to 20.1% of days among those with symptomatic infections." (https://www.cdc.gov/std/herpes/stdfact-herpes-detailed.htm https://www.cdc.gov/std/herpes/stdfact-herpes-detailed.htm)

morningcovfefe 6y ago
It's called Herpese Simplex.. but there's nothing simple about it!
- Supermancho 6y ago
  Future Man reference.
  - Supermancho 6y ago
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4975856/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4975856/
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
> e.g. with many people getting it as children due to careless parents/extended family Puhleeze. HSV is present in the majority of the population. Branding parents as "careless" because their children get it is ridiculous.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

01100011 6y ago

I am very curious to see where this research goes. At the risk of sounding like an absolute nut-case, I've been experiencing significant cognitive decline since getting divorced and becoming sexually active. Granted, I went through a traumatic experience(divorce), developed sleep apnea(treated for ~2 years), and am in my mid-40s, so my concerns are probably unfounded. That said, I've had my apnea under control for some time, I've gotten fit, and tried every combination of supplements I can think of. My hormones and blood work all look fine. Maybe I'll try some valacyclovir and see what happens.

forgot_again 6y ago
Make sure you get 8 hours of sleep each night. Eat healthy. Exercise daily. Keep anxiety in check.
- 01100011 6y ago
  Yep. I had insomnia for a while but that seems to be in check now. I started intermittent fasting a few weeks ago. No big changes yet, but I'll see how it goes. I also started 750mg of NMN. I've been going back to my old supplement regimen since it seemed to work better for me(moderate dose of vitamins, ashwagandha, CDP choline, high-DHA fish oil, NAC). I tried eliminating a lot of them for several months but it just seemed to accelerate the decline.
  - ohyes 6y ago
    How have you been measuring your cognitive decline? I have much shifted priorities from when I was in my 20s and was never that smart to begin with, so I’m note sure how I would even start to measure it.
    - 01100011 6y ago
      I wish I had an objective test. All I can go by is the difficulty I experience solving problems and my progress at work. There are certain classes of problems, boolean logic for instance, which used to be second nature to me but now leave me feeling blank and without even a hint of what the answer is. It even shows up in everyday life. I encounter more and more situations where I can't take the available information and generate a solid decision... I end up 'YOLO'ing it a lot and just taking a guess. I'm trying to come up with coping strategies, like writing things down and using visual tricks, but it doesn't work most of the time. It's frustrating and scary. I don't even know if I could transition from a tech role into management because I am so unfocused and unable to think.

Grazester 6y ago

I wonder if people above 60 should then start taking acyclovir if the have the virus in their system, as a potential preventative? They should do a study on this.

ianai 6y ago
Quick google does that’s been investigated
- nickff 6y ago
  It looks like there are some ongoing studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32034019 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32034019 https://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/clinical-trials/valacyclovir-mild-alzheimers-disease https://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/clinical-trials/valacyclo...

clircle 6y ago

I do not like headlines that say 'scientists show link between x and y'. It sounds too causal. Rather, journalists should try to write 'scientists observed x correlates with y'

darawk 6y ago
They didn't observe a correlation, though. They observed Herpes causing Alzheimers lesions in vitro.
- trianglem 6y ago
  It should be very easy to test for correlation though since both conditions are usually medically documented. If the correlation is not that high then this story probably doesn’t mean all that much.

benibela 6y ago

Didn't they discover that periodontitis causes Alzheimer: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/1/eaau3333 https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/1/eaau3333 Perhaps any infection that reaches the brain can cause Alzheimer and amyloid-beta plaques are there to fight the infection

igravious 6y ago
Came here to say this. Didn't that connection sweep through here a while back? I just checked. Turns out the herpes connection has been made before too: (1) Alzheimer's risk 10 times lower with herpes medication (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 (2) Some studies show an association between the herpes virus and Alzheimer’s (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18265115 (3) Researchers Find Herpes Viruses in Brains Marked by Alzheimer's Disease (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17366591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17366591 (4) Link Between Alzheimer’s and Herpes (2 years ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17521994 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17521994
- Swannie 6y ago
  From my skimming of the OP, which references some of this research, I think these prior findings demonstrated strong correlation, but this is the first study that demonstrates some causal relationship.
  - igravious 6y ago
    Sweet, thanks – haven't had time to even skim yet!
igravious 6y ago
(1) Gum bacteria implicated in Alzheimer's and other diseases (1 year ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19606025 (2) Gum disease–causing bacteria could spur Alzheimer’s (1 year ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18987015

paypalcust83 6y ago

I worked with a guy researching the functional basis of Alzheimer's synthesizing many radiological technologies. It is likely a multi-factor pathological degenerative condition with many, many potential precipitating (no pun intended) causes, both nature and nurture. "The cure" is more than likely a holistic combination of many early lifestyle modifications including, but not limited to: diet, sleep, exercise, gene therapy, immunotherapy, medications, and supplements.

ncmncm 6y ago
That has been said about every illness that has subsequently been shown to have a single cause.

pharke 6y ago

So let me get this straight, the elevator pitch for this is: "We're going to make a micro-brain out of dick skin and spider webs so we can give it herpes and see if it gets Alzheimers." Just wanted to make sure.

vmception 6y ago
Seems accurate! Since you read the article, the real question to me is what is the brain protecting against? If amyloid plaques are a defense mechanism that happens to permanently block neuron function, then what happens if that the plaques don't form and the herpes infection spreads? There doesn't have to be an answer, evolution doesn't cause improvements, people reproduce before this happens.

ashtonkem 6y ago

At this point, is there anything not linked to Alzheimer’s? Herpes does make sense as a plausible factor, but I feel like I read “X linked to Alzheimer’s” every few months.

RocketSyntax 6y ago

Thank you for sharing this! We are working on the genomics of AD

just42 6y ago

Long-form article in NYTimes in July of last year. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/magazine/dead-pig-brains-reanimation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/magazine/dead-pig-brains-...

jeremyspurz 6y ago

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