5 ms·

This sounds so American to me. I grew up in Eastern Europe and general attitude towards work, life, and friendship is so much different. Some of the best friend

This sounds so American to me. I grew up in Eastern Europe and general attitude towards work, life, and friendship is so much different. Some of the best friendships I've made were at the companies I worked for. I've seen cases where people make so good friendships at work that it even makes them postpone switching jobs to move up the career ladder. Work is not everything in your life. Work is important for sure, but there are other sources of joy in life. I can't help but think that Americans miss so much in life because of their obsession with work, money, and social status. Hence such posts on HN.

xrisk 6y ago
It’s probably just the general HN crowd I think.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
christophilus 6y ago
I’m in the US and my experience is the same as yours. Maybe 50% of my friends are coworkers and former coworkers. I have almost always stayed at companies longer than I otherwise would because I loved my coworkers. Burnout for me is caused by too much bureaucracy, too many meetings, and incompatible programming philosophies. Only twice in my long career have I left a job due to an insufferable coworker.
- sanderjd 6y ago
  > incompatible programming philosophies This really hits home for me. I'm at my most miserable when working with people who value doing things fast more than doing them well. I suspect those people are also at their most miserable when working with me. I see them as creating work that I'll have to do eventually to clean up their mess, and I suspect they see me as an insufferable gatekeeper.
  - ratww 6y ago
    Do you enjoy cleaning up their mess? If so, is it not the perfect environment, where everyone is doing something they do best and enjoy? Or do you dislike cleaning it up? In this case, why do you do it? Noblesse Oblige? Asking because I love refactoring. I also love pushing features fast. But I absolutely dread having to do "perfect code" in the first try. I keep trying to push this idea (inspired by Mythical-Man-Month) here in HN that a perfect team would have people "working fast and breaking things" with people working behind them that love refactoring everything cleaning it up.
    - freedomben 6y ago
      I'm not the GP but I fully agree with what he said, so here is how I would answer your question: I HATE cleaning up people's messy code. It's 10x easier to do it right the first time. Messy code to me is most messy because it's unclear what is being done. It often comes with insufficient tests, which makes refactoring dangerous. To me it's a lot like walking into a messy house vs. a clean house. If the house has clutter everywhere, or has a smell from being dirty, then it's not comfortable to be in. If I have to work in it, or clean it, I'd much rather start with a well-organized clean house. Refactoring is also not fun at all for me. I also LOVE pushing features fast. I don't obsess over "perfect code" but I do obsess over following best practices and stopping for a few minutes to think through a design. My workflow is: 1. Get it working, minimal effort, PoC 2. Get tests written and passing. 3. Refactor to good code. Perfect is the enemy of good, but it doesn't get committed until it's readable, maintainable, tested, documented. Sometimes I probably am a little slower than I otherwise could be, but people are often blown away at my ability to iterate and add features quickly. This is because my code is well organized, modular, DRY, and well tested. It takes a little longer the first release, but it more than pays for itself speed-wise as tech debt stays minimum and hackability is high. With over 10 years experience now with this method I'm convinced that it's the only sane way to do things. Anything else is sabotaging your own future. If I really don't have time to do it right the first time, I know it will be hard to iterate on, it will have bugs in prod, and it will never be pleasant to work in. It takes 10x longer to refactor an existing app to be good code than it does to do it during development when it's all fresh in mind. The best hope is that it has a good spec so it can be re-written from scratch.
irchans 6y ago
I'm 55 and I have mostly worked for three companies in my life: Penn State (10 years, started there 1990), Raytheon (3 years, started 1995), and a small hedge fund (started 1996, 12 years). I haven't worked for Penn State for about 4 years and I have lost touch with about 80% of the people I worked with there, but I still feel a strong bond to them. I have not worked at Raytheon for 15 years, and I've lost touch with 98% of my friends there, but every once in a while I do reconnect with them. I still work for the hedge fund and I do keep in touch with 50% of the people I met there even after they have moved on to other endeavors or retired. About half of my long term friendships came from work relationships.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  Penn State (10 years, started there 1990), Raytheon (3 years, started 1995), and a small hedge fund (started 1996, 12 years) Overlapping jobs like that indicates you are following a very different career structure than most people, so I’d hesitate to generalise your experience.
shas3 6y ago
In the US: culture is very important. If you have bad coworkers, no amount of technical excitement can compensate. I am willing to hypothetically trade technical excitement for great colleagues (up to a reasonable extent).
kasey_junk 6y ago
More likely selection bias for people that comment on threads like these. I’ve worked in finance and vc backed tech for my whole career. I don’t agree with any of the sentiments expressed in the threads like these. I’ve got friends from every job I’ve had in the last 20 years who I still see routinely including some of my best friends.
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  Sure, I think many of us can claim the same but the difference is you probably weren't the CEO or the boss like in OPs story. I think that changes things drastically. A boss can delude themselves into thinking employees are their friends, some even go so far as to claim employees as family. I generally stay away from small companies that pull this shit. This blurring of lines complicates every aspect of your job and leads to some very uncomfortable situations like asking for a raise, negotiating, etc...
  - cabernal 6y ago
    Yeah... companies that harp on the "family" sentiment are either being disingenuous or naive given that they can get rid of you at the flip of a coin without remorse.
peterwoerner 6y ago
It is probably also industry (and city) dependent, I have found at my job in a midsized city that there are a number of probably life long friends within my company. Also, because it is one of the largest tech employers in the area, many of the intelligent people who want to stay in city (due to family and growing up in the area) want to and do spend their entire career there. We also have pretty reasonable career paths for people who want to only work 40 hours a week and for people who want to work more.
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
I have often observed outsiders making sweeping generalizations regarding the shortcomings of the USA based off of a few internet postings. So many of my friends and neighbors came here voluntarily- They seem happy, but deep down they must be filled with so much remorse!
- chasd00 6y ago
  true. the USA is very big and diverse. no matter what you're looking for, good or bad, you can find it here.
xiaolingxiao 6y ago
OP for the comment here. I'd just like to add that this advice is specific to article OP who was running a business. As an owner/operator, he/she is tasked with the responsibility to allocate capital/resources in an effective way (morality of capitalism notwithstanding, in the current system once you take the job, it's no longer about you). It's one thing to use love and passion as rhetoric, but as an employee I would prefer the person up top made rational decisions, and maintained some distance with each employee. What often happens is that for every employee the boss befriends, many are on the losing side of it. I think a lot of people are generalizing the comment to people in all positions. I've befriended many people I worked with over the years, but I was not the one paying them, giving or denying them opportunities. I also really loved what I did, but I was not the one making sure it had exchange value on the market. Friendship, "passion", etc are really luxuries the OP wanted in this position, but really could not afford in large quantities.
myth_drannon 6y ago
It's different because in Eastern Europe you had to rely on your network to survive. Friendships are extremely important in Eastern Europe, N.A. is more individualistic and competitive(especially in the workplace) hence more loneliness, burnouts.
dang 6y ago
Only about 50% of the HN community is in the US, and many of the users who are came from other countries. You shouldn't assume a poster is American.

xrisk 6y ago

It’s probably just the general HN crowd I think.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

christophilus 6y ago

I’m in the US and my experience is the same as yours. Maybe 50% of my friends are coworkers and former coworkers. I have almost always stayed at companies longer than I otherwise would because I loved my coworkers. Burnout for me is caused by too much bureaucracy, too many meetings, and incompatible programming philosophies. Only twice in my long career have I left a job due to an insufferable coworker.

sanderjd 6y ago
> incompatible programming philosophies This really hits home for me. I'm at my most miserable when working with people who value doing things fast more than doing them well. I suspect those people are also at their most miserable when working with me. I see them as creating work that I'll have to do eventually to clean up their mess, and I suspect they see me as an insufferable gatekeeper.
- ratww 6y ago
  Do you enjoy cleaning up their mess? If so, is it not the perfect environment, where everyone is doing something they do best and enjoy? Or do you dislike cleaning it up? In this case, why do you do it? Noblesse Oblige? Asking because I love refactoring. I also love pushing features fast. But I absolutely dread having to do "perfect code" in the first try. I keep trying to push this idea (inspired by Mythical-Man-Month) here in HN that a perfect team would have people "working fast and breaking things" with people working behind them that love refactoring everything cleaning it up.
  - freedomben 6y ago
    I'm not the GP but I fully agree with what he said, so here is how I would answer your question: I HATE cleaning up people's messy code. It's 10x easier to do it right the first time. Messy code to me is most messy because it's unclear what is being done. It often comes with insufficient tests, which makes refactoring dangerous. To me it's a lot like walking into a messy house vs. a clean house. If the house has clutter everywhere, or has a smell from being dirty, then it's not comfortable to be in. If I have to work in it, or clean it, I'd much rather start with a well-organized clean house. Refactoring is also not fun at all for me. I also LOVE pushing features fast. I don't obsess over "perfect code" but I do obsess over following best practices and stopping for a few minutes to think through a design. My workflow is: 1. Get it working, minimal effort, PoC 2. Get tests written and passing. 3. Refactor to good code. Perfect is the enemy of good, but it doesn't get committed until it's readable, maintainable, tested, documented. Sometimes I probably am a little slower than I otherwise could be, but people are often blown away at my ability to iterate and add features quickly. This is because my code is well organized, modular, DRY, and well tested. It takes a little longer the first release, but it more than pays for itself speed-wise as tech debt stays minimum and hackability is high. With over 10 years experience now with this method I'm convinced that it's the only sane way to do things. Anything else is sabotaging your own future. If I really don't have time to do it right the first time, I know it will be hard to iterate on, it will have bugs in prod, and it will never be pleasant to work in. It takes 10x longer to refactor an existing app to be good code than it does to do it during development when it's all fresh in mind. The best hope is that it has a good spec so it can be re-written from scratch.

irchans 6y ago

I'm 55 and I have mostly worked for three companies in my life: Penn State (10 years, started there 1990), Raytheon (3 years, started 1995), and a small hedge fund (started 1996, 12 years). I haven't worked for Penn State for about 4 years and I have lost touch with about 80% of the people I worked with there, but I still feel a strong bond to them. I have not worked at Raytheon for 15 years, and I've lost touch with 98% of my friends there, but every once in a while I do reconnect with them. I still work for the hedge fund and I do keep in touch with 50% of the people I met there even after they have moved on to other endeavors or retired. About half of my long term friendships came from work relationships.

goatinaboat 6y ago
Penn State (10 years, started there 1990), Raytheon (3 years, started 1995), and a small hedge fund (started 1996, 12 years) Overlapping jobs like that indicates you are following a very different career structure than most people, so I’d hesitate to generalise your experience.

shas3 6y ago

In the US: culture is very important. If you have bad coworkers, no amount of technical excitement can compensate. I am willing to hypothetically trade technical excitement for great colleagues (up to a reasonable extent).

kasey_junk 6y ago

More likely selection bias for people that comment on threads like these. I’ve worked in finance and vc backed tech for my whole career. I don’t agree with any of the sentiments expressed in the threads like these. I’ve got friends from every job I’ve had in the last 20 years who I still see routinely including some of my best friends.

Zenbit_UX 6y ago
Sure, I think many of us can claim the same but the difference is you probably weren't the CEO or the boss like in OPs story. I think that changes things drastically. A boss can delude themselves into thinking employees are their friends, some even go so far as to claim employees as family. I generally stay away from small companies that pull this shit. This blurring of lines complicates every aspect of your job and leads to some very uncomfortable situations like asking for a raise, negotiating, etc...
- cabernal 6y ago
  Yeah... companies that harp on the "family" sentiment are either being disingenuous or naive given that they can get rid of you at the flip of a coin without remorse.

peterwoerner 6y ago

It is probably also industry (and city) dependent, I have found at my job in a midsized city that there are a number of probably life long friends within my company. Also, because it is one of the largest tech employers in the area, many of the intelligent people who want to stay in city (due to family and growing up in the area) want to and do spend their entire career there. We also have pretty reasonable career paths for people who want to only work 40 hours a week and for people who want to work more.

1234letshaveatw 6y ago

I have often observed outsiders making sweeping generalizations regarding the shortcomings of the USA based off of a few internet postings. So many of my friends and neighbors came here voluntarily- They seem happy, but deep down they must be filled with so much remorse!

chasd00 6y ago
true. the USA is very big and diverse. no matter what you're looking for, good or bad, you can find it here.

xiaolingxiao 6y ago

OP for the comment here. I'd just like to add that this advice is specific to article OP who was running a business. As an owner/operator, he/she is tasked with the responsibility to allocate capital/resources in an effective way (morality of capitalism notwithstanding, in the current system once you take the job, it's no longer about you). It's one thing to use love and passion as rhetoric, but as an employee I would prefer the person up top made rational decisions, and maintained some distance with each employee. What often happens is that for every employee the boss befriends, many are on the losing side of it. I think a lot of people are generalizing the comment to people in all positions. I've befriended many people I worked with over the years, but I was not the one paying them, giving or denying them opportunities. I also really loved what I did, but I was not the one making sure it had exchange value on the market. Friendship, "passion", etc are really luxuries the OP wanted in this position, but really could not afford in large quantities.

myth_drannon 6y ago

It's different because in Eastern Europe you had to rely on your network to survive. Friendships are extremely important in Eastern Europe, N.A. is more individualistic and competitive(especially in the workplace) hence more loneliness, burnouts.

dang 6y ago

Only about 50% of the HN community is in the US, and many of the users who are came from other countries. You shouldn't assume a poster is American.