12 ms·

Well, competitors are still behind Apple. They offer worse touchpad, worse screens (it's either 16:9 or weird resolution), no macOS, worse speakers, worse micro

by tsar9x 6y ago

Well, competitors are still behind Apple. They offer worse touchpad, worse screens (it's either 16:9 or weird resolution), no macOS, worse speakers, worse microphone, worse battery.

nickcox 6y ago
No sure that no macOS makes competitors objectively worse.
- tsar9x 6y ago
  Objectively not, but in practice a lot of people are locked in Apple ecosystem, for long time MacBooks were the only good laptops for development with support of communicators, graphic tools etc. It's changing with Linux and WSL, but can't blame people to stay with macOS if it works for them. Personally I'm using linux and thinkpad, but even x1 carbon falls short to MacBooks in areas I mentioned before.
  - feteru 6y ago
    Yep, I'm using an X1 Yoga, still not nearly as nice to use as OSX on a Macbook Pro that's 3 years older than it, and that's with either Windows or Linux. Ubuntu touchpad drivers are pretty bad, the windows ones are tolerable but still fail at multi-finger gestures. I really like the touchscreen, but the display colors/look aren't nearly as good. Overally pretty disappointed for a system that's close to top-spec when compared to my base spec MBP from years earlier (but it does run my Windows applications for work which I need).
- tachion 6y ago
  Laugh as much as you want but to me (and many others) it actually is. I would look at other manufacturers for their hardware, but sadly it's all non-MacOs and I value this operating system above anything else for my needs (work and personal).
  - Lammy 6y ago
    Nobody has to be laughing at anyone else, just saying that other platforms and ecosystems are also viable.
    - tachion 6y ago
      Except they aren't. I need a top class desktop operating system with top class unix environment support and tools. Windows10 might be getting close to a top class desktop os, but sadly WSL is years behind and simply feels like forced afterthought. Linux fills the unix env/tools box, but doesn't even gets close to desktop operating system quality bar of MacOS.
      - jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
        macOS is definitely not a top class UNIX environment, not even by a long shot. It is an alien hybrid of outdated BSD tools and toolchains. Even Xcode, which was amazing a decade ago, is now a joke compared to other environments and specialized tools nowadays. Since Jobs died, the company has slowly allowed their development-focused machines and toolset to rot. The company now only caters to artists and it shows with their "Pro" offerings, including the Mac Pro. As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same. Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them.
        jki275 6y ago
        I'm not sure if you're claiming that Linux is a "major desktop operating system" (desktop added for clarity based on the context of your statement), but if you are your statement is badly misinformed. I use Linux in (many) VMs where I have to in order to run esoteric toolchains for embedded stuff. There is no distribution of Linux that provides bulletproof basic desktop usability anywhere near the level of OS X or Windows 10. Nothing even in the same ballpark. And I've used Linux since the days when Slackware came on a set of 3.5" floppies, so I'm not some Linux hater or incompetent here -- I've got a significant amount of experience with the OS in many of its flavors. When you can get any distribution of Linux to accurately handle plugging in external monitors every time, maybe we can talk. Xcode is an excellent IDE - it's second really only to Visual Studio. My only complaint about Macs today is the Touch Bar, because they replaced my f-keys with it and it's useless to me as a developer. That's at least partially mitigated by my das keyboard. Nearly every other dev I know uses a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a production machine for movies, it's not really part of the discussion here.
- philipkiely 6y ago
  Objectively worse? No. You are right that competitors are not objectively worse for lacking MacOS. Still, there is a large population (myself included) who is most comfortable working in macOS and considers the “Apple tax” lower than the switching costs of changing OSs.
- quantummkv 6y ago
  Yes, it does. As someone who does audio recording, design work and programming, Macos, with it's unix shell that allows all my programming tools to work and the excellent support by creative software, is the only OS that works. The design tools may also work on windows, but the development story is hilariously bad. And no, WSL 1 or 2 with all their performance hits and weird edgecases don't qualify at all to a native unix shell. Linux is superior to macos for software development, but the creative software support is non-existant. Really, for someone like me (and I bet there are many others like me) Macos is the the only os that works.
  - jki275 6y ago
    Where I have to use Linux, I just boot up a headless VM and ssh into it from my Mac. Saves me a lot of headache trying to run a real Linux machine and deal with x and all its BS.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Objectively? No, that’s clearly a subjective call. But it is a huge factor for why people keep buying macs.
will_raw 6y ago
no macos?
tartrate 6y ago
Apple is still behind Lenovo. They don't have the TrackPoint, only glossy screens, not even 16:9, no Linux support, only one battery instead of two replacable ones, and so on.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Yes because Linux support would have these things flying off the shelf. But if only Apple would release Unix computers that would be a moot point I guess.
  - spidey1 6y ago
    Macs are Unix computers.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      That was kind of the point...
- arghwhat 6y ago
  I'm fairly sure that the general consensus is that 16:9 is ill-suited for laptops, with 16:10 or 3:2 being the "cool" aspect ratios.
- OrangeMango 6y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the X series ThinkPads are the main competitor to the MacBook Pro series. IE, thin and targeted at professionals. It's been years since an X-series has had a removable battery and the option for two of them. Decent-quality screens are a significant upcharge and even then barely match the Apple screen. And going over to their website, an X1 carbon 7th gen with a 10th gen Intel processor still uses LPDDR3, just like the Apple. If you do a real comparison - beyond just "processor cores/speed, ram and disk quantity", you'll find that there really isn't a huge difference in price for specs and that you can comfortably buy the one you prefer and not feel ripped off.
  - 6y ago
the_gipsy 6y ago
> macOS Hold on, I would actually buy a macbook if the hardware wouldn't be annoyingly incompatible with Linux.
- ajconway 6y ago
  If hardware quality and design is desirable, there are a several options on the market. Surface Pro are extremely nice if you're into Windows. X1 Carbon is a nice option if you are after a durable and compact laptop. Razer Blade is basically a performant gaming laptop in a MacBook Pro body (though you don't have to play games on it). Still, even with all the software and hardware issues of the recent years, there is something in Apple's computers that makes me want to keep using them.
  - Ididntdothis 6y ago
    "Surface Pro are extremely nice" We have some at work and I don't think they are worth the money. Same for the Surface Book. I have it as my main laptop now but I think I will go back to a HP ZBook.
elliotpage 6y ago
Many people would cite "no macOS" as a positive. However, you are bang on about the worse speakers and microphone.
- ascendantlogic 6y ago
  I would argue that macOS isn't the selling point it used to be but it's still less annoying to me to work with than WSL on Windows 10 or wrestling with a Linux distro and shitty display drivers.
  - nailer 6y ago
    Huh, interesting. Personally I have always found homebrew to to be a poor imitation of apt-get, and really enjoyed moving back to it using WSL2.
jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
Let's ignore no 120/144/240 Hz screens, no good GPU (or any dedicated GPU in most models), no CUDA, no Zen2, no workstation CPUs, no high-capacity RAM, finicky keyboard, bad warranty, no Linux support, bad Windows support, no proper OpenGL, no Vulkan, no Direct3D, no 32-bit software, no Ethernet, no FireWire, no USB-A, no optical drive, no HDMI, no DP, no VGA... Definitely all advantages! Let's also ignore all vendors with laptops that have better hardware, better warranty or better prices.
- xxs 6y ago
  how did you miss rj-45?
  - hyperbovine 6y ago
    Or RJ-11!
- scarface74 6y ago
  Optical drives, FireWire, 32 bit software, and VGA in 2020? What next? No PS/2 ports or ADB ports.
  - jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
    I use the VGA port in many conference talks I give. Modern, digital projectors are still not a guarantee and it is very awkward to go ask around for another laptop or a dongle. I have FireWire hardware still around that I have no plan on replacing until it breaks. Around half my games are 32-bit. I have a library of BluRays with my favorite shows at home. I also bought some kid shows for my daughter 6 months ago that came in a DVD set. But yeah, go laugh and make a comparison with PS/2. Everyone I listed is still in use today and many laptop vendors provide ports for them. Some will go out soon, some won't for years.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Just because you continue to use VGA, PS2, and FireWire doesn’t mean that everyone needs that. You have extremely niche needs, especially in a laptop, it’s utterly unsurprising that Apple won’t add the hardware to support them.
solarkraft 6y ago
The resolution part is insane. I use my work Macbook at 125% scaling, which would be equivalent to 100% on a WQHD screen. There are some available on some very specific (expensive) ThinkPads from a generation I don't want and the new Ryzen ASUS Zephyrus G14 (but it seems like they absolutely don't want to sell it, I seriously have found no listing for it after spending a long time hunting down the actual model code). There are some 4k models, but those bring more weird fractional scaling problems with them (especially bad on Linux), have battery life and are usually super expensive. Oh ... and it's all 14 or 15" models. I'd happily take a 17 or 19" laptop - I just want enough portability so I can carry it around in a bag while commuting and have it on a desk most of the time, but, while there are some okay 17" offerings (barely any "pro" devices, though, so no swappable RAM) there is not one (apart from the insanely expensive ZBook) offering with a higher than FHD screen. What the fuck?! Why? Don't most people use their laptops as only somewhat portable work stations? Am I the only one who finds a larger screen with more content useful? ?!?!?!!?!?
- CDSlice 6y ago
  Razor has a 17” laptop that can be configured to have a 4K display, but you also have to upgrade the GPU to a RTX 2080 Max-Q. The RAM and storage is end user replaceable though and you’d have an absolute beast of a machine that could handle pretty much anything you’ll ever throw at it. It is $3700 though. https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/razer-blade-pro/shop https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/razer-blade-pro/shop
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
Could say the same thing about Apple Vs Surface and Apple lacking touch/pen support, replaceable SSDs, SD ports, high viewing ratios, thicker devices. But it's just cherrypicking isn't it...

by tsar9x 6y ago

Well, competitors are still behind Apple. They offer worse touchpad, worse screens (it's either 16:9 or weird resolution), no macOS, worse speakers, worse microphone, worse battery.

nickcox 6y ago

No sure that no macOS makes competitors objectively worse.

tsar9x 6y ago
Objectively not, but in practice a lot of people are locked in Apple ecosystem, for long time MacBooks were the only good laptops for development with support of communicators, graphic tools etc. It's changing with Linux and WSL, but can't blame people to stay with macOS if it works for them. Personally I'm using linux and thinkpad, but even x1 carbon falls short to MacBooks in areas I mentioned before.
- feteru 6y ago
  Yep, I'm using an X1 Yoga, still not nearly as nice to use as OSX on a Macbook Pro that's 3 years older than it, and that's with either Windows or Linux. Ubuntu touchpad drivers are pretty bad, the windows ones are tolerable but still fail at multi-finger gestures. I really like the touchscreen, but the display colors/look aren't nearly as good. Overally pretty disappointed for a system that's close to top-spec when compared to my base spec MBP from years earlier (but it does run my Windows applications for work which I need).
tachion 6y ago
Laugh as much as you want but to me (and many others) it actually is. I would look at other manufacturers for their hardware, but sadly it's all non-MacOs and I value this operating system above anything else for my needs (work and personal).
- Lammy 6y ago
  Nobody has to be laughing at anyone else, just saying that other platforms and ecosystems are also viable.
  - tachion 6y ago
    Except they aren't. I need a top class desktop operating system with top class unix environment support and tools. Windows10 might be getting close to a top class desktop os, but sadly WSL is years behind and simply feels like forced afterthought. Linux fills the unix env/tools box, but doesn't even gets close to desktop operating system quality bar of MacOS.
    - jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
      macOS is definitely not a top class UNIX environment, not even by a long shot. It is an alien hybrid of outdated BSD tools and toolchains. Even Xcode, which was amazing a decade ago, is now a joke compared to other environments and specialized tools nowadays. Since Jobs died, the company has slowly allowed their development-focused machines and toolset to rot. The company now only caters to artists and it shows with their "Pro" offerings, including the Mac Pro. As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same. Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them.
      - jki275 6y ago
        I'm not sure if you're claiming that Linux is a "major desktop operating system" (desktop added for clarity based on the context of your statement), but if you are your statement is badly misinformed. I use Linux in (many) VMs where I have to in order to run esoteric toolchains for embedded stuff. There is no distribution of Linux that provides bulletproof basic desktop usability anywhere near the level of OS X or Windows 10. Nothing even in the same ballpark. And I've used Linux since the days when Slackware came on a set of 3.5" floppies, so I'm not some Linux hater or incompetent here -- I've got a significant amount of experience with the OS in many of its flavors. When you can get any distribution of Linux to accurately handle plugging in external monitors every time, maybe we can talk. Xcode is an excellent IDE - it's second really only to Visual Studio. My only complaint about Macs today is the Touch Bar, because they replaced my f-keys with it and it's useless to me as a developer. That's at least partially mitigated by my das keyboard. Nearly every other dev I know uses a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a production machine for movies, it's not really part of the discussion here.
philipkiely 6y ago
Objectively worse? No. You are right that competitors are not objectively worse for lacking MacOS. Still, there is a large population (myself included) who is most comfortable working in macOS and considers the “Apple tax” lower than the switching costs of changing OSs.
quantummkv 6y ago
Yes, it does. As someone who does audio recording, design work and programming, Macos, with it's unix shell that allows all my programming tools to work and the excellent support by creative software, is the only OS that works. The design tools may also work on windows, but the development story is hilariously bad. And no, WSL 1 or 2 with all their performance hits and weird edgecases don't qualify at all to a native unix shell. Linux is superior to macos for software development, but the creative software support is non-existant. Really, for someone like me (and I bet there are many others like me) Macos is the the only os that works.
- jki275 6y ago
  Where I have to use Linux, I just boot up a headless VM and ssh into it from my Mac. Saves me a lot of headache trying to run a real Linux machine and deal with x and all its BS.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Objectively? No, that’s clearly a subjective call. But it is a huge factor for why people keep buying macs.

will_raw 6y ago

no macos?

tartrate 6y ago

Apple is still behind Lenovo. They don't have the TrackPoint, only glossy screens, not even 16:9, no Linux support, only one battery instead of two replacable ones, and so on.

scarface74 6y ago
Yes because Linux support would have these things flying off the shelf. But if only Apple would release Unix computers that would be a moot point I guess.
- spidey1 6y ago
  Macs are Unix computers.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    That was kind of the point...
arghwhat 6y ago
I'm fairly sure that the general consensus is that 16:9 is ill-suited for laptops, with 16:10 or 3:2 being the "cool" aspect ratios.
OrangeMango 6y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the X series ThinkPads are the main competitor to the MacBook Pro series. IE, thin and targeted at professionals. It's been years since an X-series has had a removable battery and the option for two of them. Decent-quality screens are a significant upcharge and even then barely match the Apple screen. And going over to their website, an X1 carbon 7th gen with a 10th gen Intel processor still uses LPDDR3, just like the Apple. If you do a real comparison - beyond just "processor cores/speed, ram and disk quantity", you'll find that there really isn't a huge difference in price for specs and that you can comfortably buy the one you prefer and not feel ripped off.
- 6y ago

the_gipsy 6y ago

> macOS Hold on, I would actually buy a macbook if the hardware wouldn't be annoyingly incompatible with Linux.

ajconway 6y ago
If hardware quality and design is desirable, there are a several options on the market. Surface Pro are extremely nice if you're into Windows. X1 Carbon is a nice option if you are after a durable and compact laptop. Razer Blade is basically a performant gaming laptop in a MacBook Pro body (though you don't have to play games on it). Still, even with all the software and hardware issues of the recent years, there is something in Apple's computers that makes me want to keep using them.
- Ididntdothis 6y ago
  "Surface Pro are extremely nice" We have some at work and I don't think they are worth the money. Same for the Surface Book. I have it as my main laptop now but I think I will go back to a HP ZBook.

elliotpage 6y ago

Many people would cite "no macOS" as a positive. However, you are bang on about the worse speakers and microphone.

ascendantlogic 6y ago
I would argue that macOS isn't the selling point it used to be but it's still less annoying to me to work with than WSL on Windows 10 or wrestling with a Linux distro and shitty display drivers.
- nailer 6y ago
  Huh, interesting. Personally I have always found homebrew to to be a poor imitation of apt-get, and really enjoyed moving back to it using WSL2.

jfkebwjsbx 6y ago

Let's ignore no 120/144/240 Hz screens, no good GPU (or any dedicated GPU in most models), no CUDA, no Zen2, no workstation CPUs, no high-capacity RAM, finicky keyboard, bad warranty, no Linux support, bad Windows support, no proper OpenGL, no Vulkan, no Direct3D, no 32-bit software, no Ethernet, no FireWire, no USB-A, no optical drive, no HDMI, no DP, no VGA... Definitely all advantages! Let's also ignore all vendors with laptops that have better hardware, better warranty or better prices.

xxs 6y ago
how did you miss rj-45?
- hyperbovine 6y ago
  Or RJ-11!
scarface74 6y ago
Optical drives, FireWire, 32 bit software, and VGA in 2020? What next? No PS/2 ports or ADB ports.
- jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
  I use the VGA port in many conference talks I give. Modern, digital projectors are still not a guarantee and it is very awkward to go ask around for another laptop or a dongle. I have FireWire hardware still around that I have no plan on replacing until it breaks. Around half my games are 32-bit. I have a library of BluRays with my favorite shows at home. I also bought some kid shows for my daughter 6 months ago that came in a DVD set. But yeah, go laugh and make a comparison with PS/2. Everyone I listed is still in use today and many laptop vendors provide ports for them. Some will go out soon, some won't for years.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Just because you continue to use VGA, PS2, and FireWire doesn’t mean that everyone needs that. You have extremely niche needs, especially in a laptop, it’s utterly unsurprising that Apple won’t add the hardware to support them.

solarkraft 6y ago

The resolution part is insane. I use my work Macbook at 125% scaling, which would be equivalent to 100% on a WQHD screen. There are some available on some very specific (expensive) ThinkPads from a generation I don't want and the new Ryzen ASUS Zephyrus G14 (but it seems like they absolutely don't want to sell it, I seriously have found no listing for it after spending a long time hunting down the actual model code). There are some 4k models, but those bring more weird fractional scaling problems with them (especially bad on Linux), have battery life and are usually super expensive. Oh ... and it's all 14 or 15" models. I'd happily take a 17 or 19" laptop - I just want enough portability so I can carry it around in a bag while commuting and have it on a desk most of the time, but, while there are some okay 17" offerings (barely any "pro" devices, though, so no swappable RAM) there is not one (apart from the insanely expensive ZBook) offering with a higher than FHD screen. What the fuck?! Why? Don't most people use their laptops as only somewhat portable work stations? Am I the only one who finds a larger screen with more content useful? ?!?!?!!?!?

CDSlice 6y ago
Razor has a 17” laptop that can be configured to have a 4K display, but you also have to upgrade the GPU to a RTX 2080 Max-Q. The RAM and storage is end user replaceable though and you’d have an absolute beast of a machine that could handle pretty much anything you’ll ever throw at it. It is $3700 though. https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/razer-blade-pro/shop https://www.razer.com/gaming-laptops/razer-blade-pro/shop

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

Could say the same thing about Apple Vs Surface and Apple lacking touch/pen support, replaceable SSDs, SD ports, high viewing ratios, thicker devices. But it's just cherrypicking isn't it...