7 ms·

> I operate on the realization that google will one day arbitrarily destroy my gmail account for absolutely no reason. No! We need to demand more from Google (

> I operate on the realization that google will one day arbitrarily destroy my gmail account for absolutely no reason. No! We need to demand more from Google (or, at least our lawmakers). I have a business that relies on a Chrome extension to be on their web store. Say I accidentally trip off something in their opaque machine learning algorithm that determines my extension (or even a YouTube comment!) breaks their terms of service. They would have the right to completely block my account and remove the extension. Effectively, wiping out how I make a living with a single automated bit flip. It hasn't happened to me, but the people that share horror stories of how it happened to them scares the $#!7 out of me. As the Internet gets more privatized and less "open", I just wish there was something that required a fair "trial" of my account being suspended. The balance of power online is slowly shifting and I feel there needs to be something protecting the rights of individuals (the public) online.

notechback 6y ago
Actually I'm wondering if you can use the GDPR for this. It gives you the right to ask for a copy of your data. This counts for places where you don't have an explicit account so presumably o could get a copy of all data from my account even if I lose access?
- icebraining 6y ago
  Probably, but depending on that rather than making regular backups is a bit mad. https://takeout.google.com/ https://takeout.google.com/ even lets you schedule regular archiving.
  - grok22 6y ago
    Looking at the choices on that takeout page, I realized that there were a number of Google services I didn't event know about: "Google Arts & Culture", "Crisis User Reports", "Handsfree", "Textcube".
  - lonelappde 6y ago
    If you have 100GB+ with Google, takeout doesn't work. Either you have to manually download files 2GB at a time reauthenticating each time, or try a 50GB download the times out on the server side as gets cancelled with auth error. There's no way to but a physical backup or run a long running process to fetch your data reliably over the course of the week. It might work if you get an GCE VM and crossload your Google takeout to cloud storage and then download using cloud storage APIs.
nolok 6y ago
> I have a business that relies on a Chrome extension to be on their web store. Except some very few regulated things, no store has an obligation to carry this or that brand of product. Even in retail.
- VLM 6y ago
  The distinction is that a mostly sane person decided to stock Hot Pockets at the grocery store and will likely continue doing so and if they stop it won't be for a random reason. The way it works with Android apps is if some random code quality shell script of questionable quality flags your app, the app will be removed and you will get a lifetime developer ban from Google. There is no human in the loop and no appeals process. Because there's a monopoly for Android apps, there is no reason for them to ever improve customer/developer service. An excellent analogy would be getting banned for life by a programmers union if anything you write ever fails a valgrind test. Doesn't matter if its a bug in that revision of the valgrind test and there will never be any human contact in the process. "I've been banned from google and I don't even know why" is a weekly discussion topic on android development forums. Even funnier is Google implements guilt by association. So if you have a similar email address or ip address to someone who gets banned, the same shell scripts will lifetime ban your account under their ban evasion policy.
  - morpheuskafka 6y ago
    Google Play does not have a monopoly on Android apps. It's not even included on phones sold in some countries. Numerous apps, including high profiles one such as Fortnite, have not been distributed in the Play Store and there are several alternatives appstores around.
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      Fortnite just launched on the Play Store because of how impossible Google has made it to distribute Android apps outside of Play.
      - 6y ago
patcon 6y ago
Agreed. The parent description makes me think of how people used to talk about "justice" before. It was at the whim of others, and only the powerful had certain access to it. But at some point, we nationalized the carriage of justice, and so we could all come to depend on it (on both the giving and receiving end) I hope we get to the point where something in the commons (government or whatever), can offer comparable assurances about digital things that are becoming critical infrastructure in our lives
- dmos62 6y ago
  I fully support your sentiment, but you're not in opposition with the grandparent you're referring to. He didn't say that that's what he'd like Google to be (ultimately unreliable). He said that that's what it is, which is true. We should demand and expect more, but until the demands are met, well, they're not met. Nit pick.
  - patcon 6y ago
    ah good point, thx :)
ufmace 6y ago
This also makes me think that it's just too dangerous to use your long-time personal account to host Chrome extensions or Android apps that you financially depend on. The account for that should do absolutely nothing else, to have the minimum risk of it being arbitrarily shut down for something unrelated.
- marksomnian 6y ago
  This also means e.g. ensuring that their recovery email address and phone number are separate, as Google has in the past linked accounts via them and shut down all linked accounts.
- lonelappde 6y ago
  If you set up shell corporations appropriately, there's no problem. Only individual people have trouble.
caseysoftware 6y ago
As noted many, many times. Their walled garden, their rules. If we accept their edicts on speech, acceptable behavior, etc and accept that they can - and will - eject anyone without review, appeal, or even acknowledgement, we need to celebrate our internet overlords and definitely not say anything that might irritate them or get us reported by others we irritate. Welcome to the new old world. :(
- WWLink 6y ago
  Ideally we'd ban a company from making both hardware, operating systems, and app stores. Walled garden ecosystems should be totally illegal.
wpietri 6y ago
> No! We need to demand more from Google (or, at least our lawmakers) [...] a fair "trial" of my account being suspended. I wouldn't hold my breath. I encourage people to put their money where their mouth is. E.g., I host my email with Fastmail.com. is that free? No, and thank goodness. Google's core business is selling your eyeballs to people who want to influence you. Their relationship to eyeball owners is statistical; as long as they are providing adequate quantities of wallet-connected eyeballs to the highest bidder, they do fine. This drives a fundamentally different culture than businesses that live and die by customer relationships. And culture is extremely hard to change. I don't know Google's numbers offhand, but Twitter's revenue is about $1 per eyeball-pair per month, with per-user profit much lower. Think about your salary, and then think about how much work you'd be willing to do for a given account. By my numbers, handling one medium-sized customer service issue could easily wipe out an entire lifetime of profit. And that's before we even get into the literal millions of scammers, jerks, loons, and mafiosi that would a) happily misuse a Google account, and b) will eagerly waste hours of customer service time lying up a storm. Every extra inch Google gives an actual well-intentioned user means a few hundred miles taken up by that lot. Which is expensive indeed. So I am entirely grateful that I'm paying Fastmail $50/account/year. That builds a culture of wanting each customer to succeed. Of wanting customers to say good things to potential customers. Which means if that there's some bump in the relationship, they're going to at least hear me out. If you too want that, please pay people money for services.
- Finnucane 6y ago
  My personal email has been the same earthlink.net address for about 25 years now, and it’s been pretty worry-free in that time. My email client keeps all my email locally. I pay for service, I get that service. I guess it’s possible they’ll go out of business someday, but I’ll deal with it then. I don’t lose data over it.
  - Pxtl 6y ago
    How good is spam catching on those email providers? Because I'm disappointed as heck in my old Hotmail/Outlook account's spam catching, and if MS can't do it right what hope to smaller players have?
chameleon_world 6y ago
I'm not involved in anything like that but to me that just sounds like a business risk you have to take when making money off of the google store.
CivBase 6y ago
> No! We need to demand more from Google Demand all you want. Remember that you're not a customer, you're a user. Google offers their free services to keep you in their ecosystem, which allows them to collect more of your data and serve you more ads. Users are much more disposable than paying customers. So what if they piss off a few users? As long as most people keep using Android, Chrome, Google Maps, Google search, YouTube, etc, there is no risk towards their bottom line. Sure, you could try to go after them with government regulation, but they have tons of lobbying power. On top of that, even laws with the best intentions can often backfire and sometimes do more harm than good. The only thing you can reasonably do is recognize your position and make sure you are never dependent on Google. You can still use Google services; just make sure you have a plan for when that suddenly stops being an option.
- alexis_fr 6y ago
  Even being a paying customer has little value. Remember that Jordan Peterson was #15 of Patreon with more than $1m revenue if I’m correct, yet he was removed abruptly, I think in the wake of being referenced in the Christchurch terrorist (together with his book being forbidden in NZ). Even paying customers can be removed without trial.
  - tomhoward 6y ago
    This isn't quite correct. Peterson wasn't removed, he left in protest, along with Sam Harris and others, after Carl Benjamin ("Sargon of Akkad") was removed over what Patreon considered to be a policy breach. [1] I'm not expressing any position on whether or not the Carl Benjamin ban was valid, I'm just wanting to correct the record. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com.au/patreon-crowdfunding-platform-defends-itself-amid-boycott-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/patreon-crowdfunding-plat...
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
marcosdumay 6y ago
> No! We need to demand more from Google If there is any need, it is from your government (wherever it is) to go break the Google self-supporting monopolies. You can try to demand that a private company offers you high quality service for free, but I wouldn't recommend wasting your time. Alternatively, you can try to use other services, but again, those multiple self-reinforcing monopolies are an issue.
matz1 6y ago
>I have a business that relies on a Chrome extension to be on their web store No, you should operate on the basis that google can stop doing business with you for anytime for any reason and make plan accordingly.
GPUboy 6y ago
Hey, I too run a business that requires an extension. There are ways to distribute that don't include the chrome webstore, and ways to run them that don't include chrome(like chromium and kiwi on Android). It actually even increases conversion rates in some cases not using their walled garden.
toper-centage 6y ago
If your extension even gets flagged, they will disable it or uninstall it from all browsers automatically. And it will not return to normal automatically.

notechback 6y ago

Actually I'm wondering if you can use the GDPR for this. It gives you the right to ask for a copy of your data. This counts for places where you don't have an explicit account so presumably o could get a copy of all data from my account even if I lose access?

icebraining 6y ago
Probably, but depending on that rather than making regular backups is a bit mad. https://takeout.google.com/ https://takeout.google.com/ even lets you schedule regular archiving.
- grok22 6y ago
  Looking at the choices on that takeout page, I realized that there were a number of Google services I didn't event know about: "Google Arts & Culture", "Crisis User Reports", "Handsfree", "Textcube".
- lonelappde 6y ago
  If you have 100GB+ with Google, takeout doesn't work. Either you have to manually download files 2GB at a time reauthenticating each time, or try a 50GB download the times out on the server side as gets cancelled with auth error. There's no way to but a physical backup or run a long running process to fetch your data reliably over the course of the week. It might work if you get an GCE VM and crossload your Google takeout to cloud storage and then download using cloud storage APIs.

nolok 6y ago

> I have a business that relies on a Chrome extension to be on their web store. Except some very few regulated things, no store has an obligation to carry this or that brand of product. Even in retail.

VLM 6y ago
The distinction is that a mostly sane person decided to stock Hot Pockets at the grocery store and will likely continue doing so and if they stop it won't be for a random reason. The way it works with Android apps is if some random code quality shell script of questionable quality flags your app, the app will be removed and you will get a lifetime developer ban from Google. There is no human in the loop and no appeals process. Because there's a monopoly for Android apps, there is no reason for them to ever improve customer/developer service. An excellent analogy would be getting banned for life by a programmers union if anything you write ever fails a valgrind test. Doesn't matter if its a bug in that revision of the valgrind test and there will never be any human contact in the process. "I've been banned from google and I don't even know why" is a weekly discussion topic on android development forums. Even funnier is Google implements guilt by association. So if you have a similar email address or ip address to someone who gets banned, the same shell scripts will lifetime ban your account under their ban evasion policy.
- morpheuskafka 6y ago
  Google Play does not have a monopoly on Android apps. It's not even included on phones sold in some countries. Numerous apps, including high profiles one such as Fortnite, have not been distributed in the Play Store and there are several alternatives appstores around.
  - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
    Fortnite just launched on the Play Store because of how impossible Google has made it to distribute Android apps outside of Play.
    - 6y ago

patcon 6y ago

Agreed. The parent description makes me think of how people used to talk about "justice" before. It was at the whim of others, and only the powerful had certain access to it. But at some point, we nationalized the carriage of justice, and so we could all come to depend on it (on both the giving and receiving end) I hope we get to the point where something in the commons (government or whatever), can offer comparable assurances about digital things that are becoming critical infrastructure in our lives

dmos62 6y ago
I fully support your sentiment, but you're not in opposition with the grandparent you're referring to. He didn't say that that's what he'd like Google to be (ultimately unreliable). He said that that's what it is, which is true. We should demand and expect more, but until the demands are met, well, they're not met. Nit pick.
- patcon 6y ago
  ah good point, thx :)

ufmace 6y ago

This also makes me think that it's just too dangerous to use your long-time personal account to host Chrome extensions or Android apps that you financially depend on. The account for that should do absolutely nothing else, to have the minimum risk of it being arbitrarily shut down for something unrelated.

marksomnian 6y ago
This also means e.g. ensuring that their recovery email address and phone number are separate, as Google has in the past linked accounts via them and shut down all linked accounts.
lonelappde 6y ago
If you set up shell corporations appropriately, there's no problem. Only individual people have trouble.

caseysoftware 6y ago

As noted many, many times. Their walled garden, their rules. If we accept their edicts on speech, acceptable behavior, etc and accept that they can - and will - eject anyone without review, appeal, or even acknowledgement, we need to celebrate our internet overlords and definitely not say anything that might irritate them or get us reported by others we irritate. Welcome to the new old world. :(

WWLink 6y ago
Ideally we'd ban a company from making both hardware, operating systems, and app stores. Walled garden ecosystems should be totally illegal.

wpietri 6y ago

> No! We need to demand more from Google (or, at least our lawmakers) [...] a fair "trial" of my account being suspended. I wouldn't hold my breath. I encourage people to put their money where their mouth is. E.g., I host my email with Fastmail.com. is that free? No, and thank goodness. Google's core business is selling your eyeballs to people who want to influence you. Their relationship to eyeball owners is statistical; as long as they are providing adequate quantities of wallet-connected eyeballs to the highest bidder, they do fine. This drives a fundamentally different culture than businesses that live and die by customer relationships. And culture is extremely hard to change. I don't know Google's numbers offhand, but Twitter's revenue is about $1 per eyeball-pair per month, with per-user profit much lower. Think about your salary, and then think about how much work you'd be willing to do for a given account. By my numbers, handling one medium-sized customer service issue could easily wipe out an entire lifetime of profit. And that's before we even get into the literal millions of scammers, jerks, loons, and mafiosi that would a) happily misuse a Google account, and b) will eagerly waste hours of customer service time lying up a storm. Every extra inch Google gives an actual well-intentioned user means a few hundred miles taken up by that lot. Which is expensive indeed. So I am entirely grateful that I'm paying Fastmail $50/account/year. That builds a culture of wanting each customer to succeed. Of wanting customers to say good things to potential customers. Which means if that there's some bump in the relationship, they're going to at least hear me out. If you too want that, please pay people money for services.

Finnucane 6y ago
My personal email has been the same earthlink.net address for about 25 years now, and it’s been pretty worry-free in that time. My email client keeps all my email locally. I pay for service, I get that service. I guess it’s possible they’ll go out of business someday, but I’ll deal with it then. I don’t lose data over it.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  How good is spam catching on those email providers? Because I'm disappointed as heck in my old Hotmail/Outlook account's spam catching, and if MS can't do it right what hope to smaller players have?

chameleon_world 6y ago

I'm not involved in anything like that but to me that just sounds like a business risk you have to take when making money off of the google store.

CivBase 6y ago

> No! We need to demand more from Google Demand all you want. Remember that you're not a customer, you're a user. Google offers their free services to keep you in their ecosystem, which allows them to collect more of your data and serve you more ads. Users are much more disposable than paying customers. So what if they piss off a few users? As long as most people keep using Android, Chrome, Google Maps, Google search, YouTube, etc, there is no risk towards their bottom line. Sure, you could try to go after them with government regulation, but they have tons of lobbying power. On top of that, even laws with the best intentions can often backfire and sometimes do more harm than good. The only thing you can reasonably do is recognize your position and make sure you are never dependent on Google. You can still use Google services; just make sure you have a plan for when that suddenly stops being an option.

alexis_fr 6y ago
Even being a paying customer has little value. Remember that Jordan Peterson was #15 of Patreon with more than $1m revenue if I’m correct, yet he was removed abruptly, I think in the wake of being referenced in the Christchurch terrorist (together with his book being forbidden in NZ). Even paying customers can be removed without trial.
- tomhoward 6y ago
  This isn't quite correct. Peterson wasn't removed, he left in protest, along with Sam Harris and others, after Carl Benjamin ("Sargon of Akkad") was removed over what Patreon considered to be a policy breach. [1] I'm not expressing any position on whether or not the Carl Benjamin ban was valid, I'm just wanting to correct the record. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com.au/patreon-crowdfunding-platform-defends-itself-amid-boycott-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/patreon-crowdfunding-plat...

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

marcosdumay 6y ago

> No! We need to demand more from Google If there is any need, it is from your government (wherever it is) to go break the Google self-supporting monopolies. You can try to demand that a private company offers you high quality service for free, but I wouldn't recommend wasting your time. Alternatively, you can try to use other services, but again, those multiple self-reinforcing monopolies are an issue.

matz1 6y ago

>I have a business that relies on a Chrome extension to be on their web store No, you should operate on the basis that google can stop doing business with you for anytime for any reason and make plan accordingly.

GPUboy 6y ago

Hey, I too run a business that requires an extension. There are ways to distribute that don't include the chrome webstore, and ways to run them that don't include chrome(like chromium and kiwi on Android). It actually even increases conversion rates in some cases not using their walled garden.

toper-centage 6y ago

If your extension even gets flagged, they will disable it or uninstall it from all browsers automatically. And it will not return to normal automatically.