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This mask discussion makes me think like I am taking crazy pills. Can someone explain to me how placing a barrier in front of your mouth and nose can possibly b

This mask discussion makes me think like I am taking crazy pills. Can someone explain to me how placing a barrier in front of your mouth and nose can possibly be a BAD idea when the purpose is to reduce the entry of particles into the system? Why do we need studies to prove this? If you are inhaling it is likely to stop some particles from getting in. If you are exhaling it is likely to stop some particles from getting out. Sure, particles might still get in or out but HOW CAN IT BE WORSE THAN LITERALLY BEING EXPOSED ALL THE TIME? This feels like the parachute example to me that was posted here a few days ago. You don't need to do a study to prove that a man hitting the ground at 10km/h would be more likely to survive than one hitting at 150km/h. Sure, parachutes can fail, but how can they be worse off than NOT wearing a parachute? It almost feels like the health agencies were caught with their pants down telling absolute lies about masks for over a month and are now scrambling to salvage some dignity from the affair by throwing studies at us. Just imagine how much we could have reduced transmission if Americans had started wearing masks in late February or at least early March. This lie has literally cost the world billions of dollars, not to mention thousands of lives.

wegs 6y ago
No one honest can, because masks do help. What's not clear is how much they help. They'd have a huge effect on large droplets, but potentially a very small effect on bioaerosols. Until we know more about how COVID19 typically spreads, we don't know how important they are. In contrast to the intentionally dishonest UMN fluff PR piece, that's what the NAP paper it claims to summarize says. The one really big effect not talked about is that it also means I can't unconsciously touch my mouth or nose. Remember the "don't touch your face" campaign?
- timr 6y ago
  "In contrast to the intentionally dishonest UMN fluff PR piece, that's what the NAP paper it claims to summarize says." The article title is "data do not back cloth masks to limit Covid-19". The NAP paper says: "The evidence from these laboratory filtration studies suggests that such fabric masks may reduce the transmission of larger respiratory droplets. There is little evidence regarding the transmission of small aerosolized particulates of the size potentially exhaled by asymptomatic or presymptomatic individuals with COVID-19. The extent of any protection will depend on how the masks are made and used. It will also depend on how mask use affects users’ other precautionary behaviors, including their use of better masks, when those become widely available. Those behavioral effects may undermine or enhance homemade fabric masks’ overall effect on public health. The current level of benefit, if any, is not possible to assess." It seems like an entirely accurate summary of the contents of the paper.
conqrr 6y ago
Not arguing for/against masks, merely pointing out the analogy. For your parachute analogy. Imagine that its given the parachute will have very large holes (similar to the droplets being very very small). Its useless having a parchute in that case.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  I am pretty sure that a parachute with holes will still have reduced terminal velocity than not having a parachute. I get your argument but unlike a man crashing to death, we are playing a probability game here. Viral load also matters, even if you can stop some of the virus from entering, it can only help.
shrimp_emoji 6y ago
Imagine that having the mask encourages you to go out and be around people. If you would otherwise self-isolate if you didn't have a mask, the mask has increased your chances of getting yourself and others sick.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  This is because the advice was delivered in a hare-brained manner and a month late. It should always have been a combination of mask wearing from day 1 and stopping any large gatherings. Combine that with social distancing and you get most of the benefits. Now we have already infected so many people and are trying to close the barn door when the horse has long fled. Before the lockdowns people were going about their merry lives WITHOUT masks. If they were doing exactly the same things but WITH masks, we would still be better off. A coordinated advice in this case is important. Without a central authority advising for masks, people who do choose to wear them look like loony conspiracy theorists, but if there is central guidance for doing it, it quickly changes public perception. The mask advice should have come in February, followed by bans on large gatherings (25+ people or some number), and then the lock downs could have come in a limited fashion in March as needed. All those cute videos of cutting TShirts and socks and what nots to make masks could have been shown in Feb and people would have used them. Instead the authorities chose to tell such a stupid lie that it's almost insulting to our intelligence.
  - loopz 6y ago
    Citation for such lies?
    - cameldrv 6y ago
      https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/surgeon-general-americans-stop-buying-face-masks.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/surgeon-general-...
      - loopz 6y ago
timr 6y ago
"Can someone explain to me how placing a barrier in front of your mouth and nose can possibly be a BAD idea when the purpose is to reduce the entry of particles into the system?" There are a number of reasonable arguments. Just a few: * people who wear masks touch their face more often, which leads to greater infection (I personally observe this every day). * masks give people a false sense of safety, and cause them to reduce social distancing. * masks increase risk of infection unless donning and doffing procedures are followed correctly. * telling people to wear masks causes them to seek out medical masks and N95 masks that are in short supply, and should be reserved for professionals (also personally observe this every day; people are walking their dogs in Manhattan wearing N95 masks, while hospitals literally beg for new masks).
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  If anything the fact that I have a mask on constantly reminds me that I should not be touching my face. Every time I hand motions towards my face I remember that I have a mask on.
  - timr 6y ago
    I am citing the most common arguments made by experts in the field. Unless you record yourself and count the number of times you touch your face while wearing a mask, your recollection is unlikely to be objective or accurate.
    - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
      It is not hard to come up with a laundry list of such arguments. Here, I made another one— > If you are wearing a mask while others are not, they are likely to ask you about it, which makes it more likely for you to talk in their presence, thus increasing the chance of transmission. Given how the authorities flipped their advice in barely a month, despite having the same laundry list of arguments, shows that the arguments were more of a deflection than something that was properly incorporated into the cost-benefit analysis.
Someone 6y ago
https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274280/retrieve https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274280/retrieve: ”The use of medical masks in the community may create a false sense of security, with neglect of other essential measures, such as hand hygiene practices and physical distancing, and may lead to touching the face under the masks and under the eyes” (Note that infection can take place via your tear ducts. https://www.drtavel.com/blog/can-you-catch-a-cold-through-your-eyes/ https://www.drtavel.com/blog/can-you-catch-a-cold-through-yo...: “Rubbing your eyes after coming in contact with an infected person is one of the most common ways to catch a cold.”)
BrandoElFollito 6y ago
The only thing I could imagine is that the masks could make it worse because of something else. Say, for a runner gettin x% less O2 is worse, risk wise, than to use the mask for viral protection This was not in the article, I am just speculating on a possible reason (not applicable here). BTW our gouvernement (French) was telling us that story of no masks for the first weeks and it was already ridiculous at that time.
stillbourne 6y ago
The problem is that the worst thing that you can do during this pandemic is touch your face. There is a lot of evidence that people who are not used to wearing masks increase the incidence of touching their faces to adjust the mask, talk, eat, even... cough and sneeze. Proper hygiene is far more important, wash your hands and cover your mouth when you cough or sneeze. Hospitals have entire procedures for equipping and doffing PPE, the public doesn't.
falcolas 6y ago
The goal of the parachute, as you say, is to redirect air. And poorly made or fitted masks do just that. But the goal of a mask is to stop or filter particles. Redirected particles simply change the direction that you blow your infection in. Good for people in front of you, less good for those beside you. The term is “blow by”, and it’s worth at least learning about.
dang 6y ago
Please don't use allcaps for emphasis on HN. This is in the site guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

wegs 6y ago

No one honest can, because masks do help. What's not clear is how much they help. They'd have a huge effect on large droplets, but potentially a very small effect on bioaerosols. Until we know more about how COVID19 typically spreads, we don't know how important they are. In contrast to the intentionally dishonest UMN fluff PR piece, that's what the NAP paper it claims to summarize says. The one really big effect not talked about is that it also means I can't unconsciously touch my mouth or nose. Remember the "don't touch your face" campaign?

timr 6y ago
"In contrast to the intentionally dishonest UMN fluff PR piece, that's what the NAP paper it claims to summarize says." The article title is "data do not back cloth masks to limit Covid-19". The NAP paper says: "The evidence from these laboratory filtration studies suggests that such fabric masks may reduce the transmission of larger respiratory droplets. There is little evidence regarding the transmission of small aerosolized particulates of the size potentially exhaled by asymptomatic or presymptomatic individuals with COVID-19. The extent of any protection will depend on how the masks are made and used. It will also depend on how mask use affects users’ other precautionary behaviors, including their use of better masks, when those become widely available. Those behavioral effects may undermine or enhance homemade fabric masks’ overall effect on public health. The current level of benefit, if any, is not possible to assess." It seems like an entirely accurate summary of the contents of the paper.

conqrr 6y ago

Not arguing for/against masks, merely pointing out the analogy. For your parachute analogy. Imagine that its given the parachute will have very large holes (similar to the droplets being very very small). Its useless having a parchute in that case.

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
I am pretty sure that a parachute with holes will still have reduced terminal velocity than not having a parachute. I get your argument but unlike a man crashing to death, we are playing a probability game here. Viral load also matters, even if you can stop some of the virus from entering, it can only help.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago

Imagine that having the mask encourages you to go out and be around people. If you would otherwise self-isolate if you didn't have a mask, the mask has increased your chances of getting yourself and others sick.

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
This is because the advice was delivered in a hare-brained manner and a month late. It should always have been a combination of mask wearing from day 1 and stopping any large gatherings. Combine that with social distancing and you get most of the benefits. Now we have already infected so many people and are trying to close the barn door when the horse has long fled. Before the lockdowns people were going about their merry lives WITHOUT masks. If they were doing exactly the same things but WITH masks, we would still be better off. A coordinated advice in this case is important. Without a central authority advising for masks, people who do choose to wear them look like loony conspiracy theorists, but if there is central guidance for doing it, it quickly changes public perception. The mask advice should have come in February, followed by bans on large gatherings (25+ people or some number), and then the lock downs could have come in a limited fashion in March as needed. All those cute videos of cutting TShirts and socks and what nots to make masks could have been shown in Feb and people would have used them. Instead the authorities chose to tell such a stupid lie that it's almost insulting to our intelligence.
- loopz 6y ago
  Citation for such lies?
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/surgeon-general-americans-stop-buying-face-masks.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/02/surgeon-general-...
    - loopz 6y ago

timr 6y ago

"Can someone explain to me how placing a barrier in front of your mouth and nose can possibly be a BAD idea when the purpose is to reduce the entry of particles into the system?" There are a number of reasonable arguments. Just a few: * people who wear masks touch their face more often, which leads to greater infection (I personally observe this every day). * masks give people a false sense of safety, and cause them to reduce social distancing. * masks increase risk of infection unless donning and doffing procedures are followed correctly. * telling people to wear masks causes them to seek out medical masks and N95 masks that are in short supply, and should be reserved for professionals (also personally observe this every day; people are walking their dogs in Manhattan wearing N95 masks, while hospitals literally beg for new masks).

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
If anything the fact that I have a mask on constantly reminds me that I should not be touching my face. Every time I hand motions towards my face I remember that I have a mask on.
- timr 6y ago
  I am citing the most common arguments made by experts in the field. Unless you record yourself and count the number of times you touch your face while wearing a mask, your recollection is unlikely to be objective or accurate.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
    It is not hard to come up with a laundry list of such arguments. Here, I made another one— > If you are wearing a mask while others are not, they are likely to ask you about it, which makes it more likely for you to talk in their presence, thus increasing the chance of transmission. Given how the authorities flipped their advice in barely a month, despite having the same laundry list of arguments, shows that the arguments were more of a deflection than something that was properly incorporated into the cost-benefit analysis.

Someone 6y ago

https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274280/retrieve https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1274280/retrieve: ”The use of medical masks in the community may create a false sense of security, with neglect of other essential measures, such as hand hygiene practices and physical distancing, and may lead to touching the face under the masks and under the eyes” (Note that infection can take place via your tear ducts. https://www.drtavel.com/blog/can-you-catch-a-cold-through-your-eyes/ https://www.drtavel.com/blog/can-you-catch-a-cold-through-yo...: “Rubbing your eyes after coming in contact with an infected person is one of the most common ways to catch a cold.”)

BrandoElFollito 6y ago

The only thing I could imagine is that the masks could make it worse because of something else. Say, for a runner gettin x% less O2 is worse, risk wise, than to use the mask for viral protection This was not in the article, I am just speculating on a possible reason (not applicable here). BTW our gouvernement (French) was telling us that story of no masks for the first weeks and it was already ridiculous at that time.

stillbourne 6y ago

The problem is that the worst thing that you can do during this pandemic is touch your face. There is a lot of evidence that people who are not used to wearing masks increase the incidence of touching their faces to adjust the mask, talk, eat, even... cough and sneeze. Proper hygiene is far more important, wash your hands and cover your mouth when you cough or sneeze. Hospitals have entire procedures for equipping and doffing PPE, the public doesn't.

falcolas 6y ago

The goal of the parachute, as you say, is to redirect air. And poorly made or fitted masks do just that. But the goal of a mask is to stop or filter particles. Redirected particles simply change the direction that you blow your infection in. Good for people in front of you, less good for those beside you. The term is “blow by”, and it’s worth at least learning about.

dang 6y ago

Please don't use allcaps for emphasis on HN. This is in the site guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.