13 ms·

Operating Systems Without Systemd

122 points by yangliwei 6y ago

k__ 6y ago
I think, that sums up what's wrong with the Linux world right now. NixOS and GuixSD being the next generation of distributions and people are calling it "neat project with some unique features, but it is more fun as an intellectual curiosity than as something practical" while arguing if a distribution should use Systemd or not...
- threwawasy1228 6y ago
  I think that NixOS could definitely become a foundational next-gen distribution if they fix the Channel system. One fix I'm particularly fond of is flakes. [0] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/49 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/49
  - est31 6y ago
    I too hope that NixOs becomes mainstream because I like the basic approach, but the same time there are some issues with it still. I'm not sure it will ever become mainstream. It might remain small forever, e.g. like the haskell/fp community.
    - sterlind 6y ago
      I think it could get big if people start making Nix distributions. I've been meaning to make something like NixOS for Grandmas that hides the config and tools behind a shiny installer and settings page and uses Nix as a control plane. The best part is, there wouldn't be fragmentation of package maintenance between distros.
- justinsaccount 6y ago
  The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.
  - reshie 6y ago
    the problem is how integrated it is with everything. it is hard to have a choice in your init(not that there was much a choice to begin with). it takes away from modularity.
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.
    - tssva 6y ago
      If the issue is a single module take over of userspace then I have good news for you. The systemd project is made up of multiple modules handling differing tasks not all of which you have to use.
      - dogecoinbase 6y ago
        Modules which only work with their own other modules and fail to work with other people's modules aren't modules, they're a monolith.
        hinkley 6y ago
        with accessories.
        the_why_of_y 6y ago
        Would you say Postfix is a monolith? Or qmail?
        f1refly 6y ago
        yes and yes. Fairly small ones, but monoliths nonetheless.
      - 6y ago
- bzb3 6y ago
  >right now No, this didn't start now.
- kdtsh 6y ago
  Right, I definitely wouldn’t say they’re just an intellectual curiosity (although it’s certainly intellectually curious), they’re both very practical daily driver for many use cases. Both are still in active development, but for plenty of applications they are rock solid and ready to go. In fact Guix System 1.1.0 was released a week or so ago.
bhawks 6y ago
Android - anyone? Android is linux, it's init is simple and the user experience obviously successful. There is a ton here for other distros to learn and improve on.
- catblast 6y ago
  Windows and Mac OS are not on the list either. Haiku is, so this is not a Linux list. Pretty much arbitrary.
  - threwawasy1228 6y ago
    The point of the list is to be a short list of operating systems the author is highlighting, they link to the lists they are referencing which are more complete near the top of the article.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  Typically when “Linux” is used without qualification, it means a GNU-based system; i.e., not Android.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Or at least a unix-like Linux (which I mention only because Alpine is a decently popular non-GNU distro; I've taken to calling it Busybox/Linux).
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  > and the user experience obviously successful That's... one point of view. Another is that Android is very successful at content consumption while falling short at more complex workflows, possessing a remarkably fragmented ecosystem, failing to deliver security updates to most of its users in a reasonable timeframe if at all, and possessing little to no flexibility at the lower layers (ex. supporting BTRFS or ZFS).
  - Tijdreiziger 6y ago
andoriyu 6y ago
A few linux linux distos, GNU Hurd experiment, rust experiment, BeOS inspired, but none of the main stream BSD OSes? Not including the most popular linux distribution that doesn't have systemd - Android. Not including macOS, but i guess it's not OSS, so it doesn't count. Doesn't include Alpine linux. That list is hella weird and should be named "Experimental OS that I'm curious about, but don't want to run myself. Also, none of them has systemd"
edoceo 6y ago
Sad Gentoo didn't get more mention. Been using that w/OpenRC since before systemd existed and it's still my solid daily driver.
- oehtXRwMkIs 6y ago
  I found that extremely strange. Along with Void it's pretty much the go-to distro for people that don't want systemd.
  - Brian_K_White 6y ago
    I took the point of the article to highlight the interesting items. Who hasn't heard of, and even know the elevator pitch for Gentoo? For decades already no less. It's great, and it obviously qualifies to be in the full list, but it's not interesting or novel to anyone who already uses unix-like os's other than osx.
    - hedora 6y ago
      Thanks for the list. There are a bunch of gems on there that I’ve never heard of.
  - teleforce 6y ago
    Imagine an imaginary conversation for the reason behind choosing a distribution name. 1 - Can we name our distro Void. 2 - Why? 1 - Since it devoids of systemd
- tgbugs 6y ago
  Life long Gentoo user here. The fact that NixOS other other new fangled package management systems are rarely mentioned in the same context as Gentoo has led me to wonder whether the new kids on the block have done their homework. I realize that Gentoo became a meme at some point, but it also seems that it might have transcended to the level of infrastructure. Thus, you rarely ever heard about it for the same reason you don't hear people talk about hammers -- it is doing its job running tens (hundreds?) of millions of chrome books among other things. No flare, nothing fancy, it has solved a whole bunch of packaging, deployment, and environment control problems and gotten out of the way of its users (mostly ... chuckle), and it did it all with a pile of bash scripts and a little python here and there. Want to use systemd because you have a use case that would benefit from it? Go right ahead! The engineering work is done, no need for fights on the mailing list. Don't want to use systemd? `eudev` to the rescue! There are sound engineering reasons for not using systemd while also wanting to use some other (seemingly) completely unrelated piece of software that just happens to have a dependency on the kitchen sink. Despite being a rolling release distribution, I find that the UX and workflows are more stable over long periods of time than any of the more popular LTS style distros. When I started fiddling with Ubuntu so that I could help my colleagues debug issues it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that there isn't really such a thing as Ubuntu, just 14.04, 16.04, 18.04, etc. Each is some different form the other that stack overflow questions from one LTS are often simply wrong for another. Writing this I wonder whether rolling release distros aren't effectively the original form of chaos engineering -- if everything is going to be changing all the time then it forces the developers to solve a different and perhaps more fundamental set of problems and ultimately leads to greater stability in the long run.
jmclnx 6y ago
Well they forgot to list Slackware. It does not use systemd either. edit: just read it again, it is a list of OS he likes, so it was not an omission :)
jbnorth 6y ago
Maybe I'm just out of the loop but what is the controversy regarding systemd?
- Teknoman117 6y ago
  Starting this off with a disclaimer that these are things I've heard or read, and aren't necessarily a statement of my views. The controversy mainly surrounds the claim that it is a single package that tries to do way too much by itself. Calling systemd an init system isn't correct. systemd contains many things, one of which is an init system. The other claim is that the systemd developers aren't open to much outside opinion, but have power over the community because important parts of basically all desktop Linux systems are now part of systemd and have strong dependencies on it (such as udev).
  - shrimp_emoji 6y ago
    For example, systemd timers (timed systemctl services) are like cron if cron was slightly more complicated and had very good logging. :3
    - yarrel 6y ago
      journalctl is a text adventure fever dream. Do systemd timers use a different logging system?
      - simcop2387 6y ago
        Nope, they go straight to journald.
      - deadbunny 6y ago
        You can output journald to syslog with one config option[1]. 1. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journald.service.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jou...
        6y ago
coleifer 6y ago
OpenBSD dabs on this list from the towering arches of the heavens.
- fuball63 6y ago
  I was surprised none of the bsd flavors, freebsd, netbsd, openbsd weren't on the list. Your comment phrasing made me chuckle too.
stevebmark 6y ago
It's weird linux folk hold such strong opinions about something so old and well established that doesn't matter at all.
- pengaru 6y ago
  You must not appreciate that the systemd name is overloaded; there's systemd PID1 the init daemon, and systemd the Katamari Damacy of Linux project. Most contention is over the latter, not so much the former by itself.
branon 6y ago
Plug for Void, the community recently added support[0] for the Pinebook Pro, so it's been my daily driver for a few months now. [0] https://github.com/void-linux/void-mklive/issues/105 https://github.com/void-linux/void-mklive/issues/105
- drudru11 6y ago
  Whoa - nice. I just ordered one in March. I was OK with having to try manjaro, but i wanted to try void. Thanks for sharing this.
- delcaran 6y ago
  Thanks! I just reinstalled Manjaro yesterday, but I guess I will be installing Void today!
- bsg75 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, what makes Void a preferred OS for you on a laptop compared to something “common” like Ubuntu or Fedora?
kitotik 6y ago
At what point is it just systemdOS?
- pengaru 6y ago
  GNOME OS is already a thing
  - SolarTransport 6y ago
    I'm personally waiting for GLaDOS
- pnako 6y ago
  Lennax
- hedora 6y ago
  SystemDOS Denial of service today. Disk operating system when they reinvent FAT poorly.
tramtrist 6y ago
Slackware. Now and forever.
- mythrwy 6y ago
  14.2 now and forever tho?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
teleforce 6y ago
Shepherd is probably a good alternative, and it can be used standalone or with Guix: https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/
efiecho 6y ago
Just finished reading Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, and if we could travel back and show the original hackers at MIT things we use in 2020 like systemd, electron etc. I think they would be in complete disbelief over the amount of bloat, and ask us why we stopped caring and started to accept software design like that.
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  That's because those hackers are in the frontline of the last war (which we don't have to fight anymore). :v Crossplatformness or security or convenience in exchange for bloat are all EZ trades. 2.8/62.8 GB of RAM used right now, btw.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ppf 6y ago
No mention of Devuan, a fork of Debian for the sole purpose of removing systemd (and they're also not a fan of dbus, for reasons that escape me).
- bmn__ 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17178161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17178161
itsajoke 6y ago
They forgot to mention Windows and MacOS.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
combatentropy 6y ago
To the commenters: this article explicitly wasn't meant to be exhaustive or even introductory. The two links he embeds near the beginning were: - Linux distributions without systemd (https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-sy...) - Operating systems without systemd (https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-sy...) Then he adds, "Here I’m just going to mention a few operating systems that I personally have found interesting." So these few are just ones where he thought he had something fresh to say. He did not aim to compete with the more objective lists he just mentioned.

122 points by yangliwei 6y ago

k__ 6y ago

I think, that sums up what's wrong with the Linux world right now. NixOS and GuixSD being the next generation of distributions and people are calling it "neat project with some unique features, but it is more fun as an intellectual curiosity than as something practical" while arguing if a distribution should use Systemd or not...

threwawasy1228 6y ago
I think that NixOS could definitely become a foundational next-gen distribution if they fix the Channel system. One fix I'm particularly fond of is flakes. [0] https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/49 https://github.com/NixOS/rfcs/pull/49
- est31 6y ago
  I too hope that NixOs becomes mainstream because I like the basic approach, but the same time there are some issues with it still. I'm not sure it will ever become mainstream. It might remain small forever, e.g. like the haskell/fp community.
  - sterlind 6y ago
    I think it could get big if people start making Nix distributions. I've been meaning to make something like NixOS for Grandmas that hides the config and tools behind a shiny installer and settings page and uses Nix as a control plane. The best part is, there wouldn't be fragmentation of package maintenance between distros.
justinsaccount 6y ago
The linux world is busy getting shit done. Ignore the children arguing over init systems.
- reshie 6y ago
  the problem is how integrated it is with everything. it is hard to have a choice in your init(not that there was much a choice to begin with). it takes away from modularity.
- wrycoder 6y ago
  The argument is not about the init system. systemd’s is probably fine. It’s about an ever expanding take-over of userspace by a single module, which is not the Unix way. And about a high-handed project leader who is paid by Redhat to do it full time.
  - tssva 6y ago
    If the issue is a single module take over of userspace then I have good news for you. The systemd project is made up of multiple modules handling differing tasks not all of which you have to use.
    - dogecoinbase 6y ago
      Modules which only work with their own other modules and fail to work with other people's modules aren't modules, they're a monolith.
      - hinkley 6y ago
        with accessories.
      - the_why_of_y 6y ago
        Would you say Postfix is a monolith? Or qmail?
        f1refly 6y ago
        yes and yes. Fairly small ones, but monoliths nonetheless.
    - 6y ago
bzb3 6y ago
>right now No, this didn't start now.
kdtsh 6y ago
Right, I definitely wouldn’t say they’re just an intellectual curiosity (although it’s certainly intellectually curious), they’re both very practical daily driver for many use cases. Both are still in active development, but for plenty of applications they are rock solid and ready to go. In fact Guix System 1.1.0 was released a week or so ago.

bhawks 6y ago

Android - anyone? Android is linux, it's init is simple and the user experience obviously successful. There is a ton here for other distros to learn and improve on.

catblast 6y ago
Windows and Mac OS are not on the list either. Haiku is, so this is not a Linux list. Pretty much arbitrary.
- threwawasy1228 6y ago
  The point of the list is to be a short list of operating systems the author is highlighting, they link to the lists they are referencing which are more complete near the top of the article.
umanwizard 6y ago
Typically when “Linux” is used without qualification, it means a GNU-based system; i.e., not Android.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  Or at least a unix-like Linux (which I mention only because Alpine is a decently popular non-GNU distro; I've taken to calling it Busybox/Linux).
yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
> and the user experience obviously successful That's... one point of view. Another is that Android is very successful at content consumption while falling short at more complex workflows, possessing a remarkably fragmented ecosystem, failing to deliver security updates to most of its users in a reasonable timeframe if at all, and possessing little to no flexibility at the lower layers (ex. supporting BTRFS or ZFS).
- Tijdreiziger 6y ago

andoriyu 6y ago

A few linux linux distos, GNU Hurd experiment, rust experiment, BeOS inspired, but none of the main stream BSD OSes? Not including the most popular linux distribution that doesn't have systemd - Android. Not including macOS, but i guess it's not OSS, so it doesn't count. Doesn't include Alpine linux. That list is hella weird and should be named "Experimental OS that I'm curious about, but don't want to run myself. Also, none of them has systemd"

edoceo 6y ago

Sad Gentoo didn't get more mention. Been using that w/OpenRC since before systemd existed and it's still my solid daily driver.

oehtXRwMkIs 6y ago
I found that extremely strange. Along with Void it's pretty much the go-to distro for people that don't want systemd.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  I took the point of the article to highlight the interesting items. Who hasn't heard of, and even know the elevator pitch for Gentoo? For decades already no less. It's great, and it obviously qualifies to be in the full list, but it's not interesting or novel to anyone who already uses unix-like os's other than osx.
  - hedora 6y ago
    Thanks for the list. There are a bunch of gems on there that I’ve never heard of.
- teleforce 6y ago
  Imagine an imaginary conversation for the reason behind choosing a distribution name. 1 - Can we name our distro Void. 2 - Why? 1 - Since it devoids of systemd
tgbugs 6y ago
Life long Gentoo user here. The fact that NixOS other other new fangled package management systems are rarely mentioned in the same context as Gentoo has led me to wonder whether the new kids on the block have done their homework. I realize that Gentoo became a meme at some point, but it also seems that it might have transcended to the level of infrastructure. Thus, you rarely ever heard about it for the same reason you don't hear people talk about hammers -- it is doing its job running tens (hundreds?) of millions of chrome books among other things. No flare, nothing fancy, it has solved a whole bunch of packaging, deployment, and environment control problems and gotten out of the way of its users (mostly ... chuckle), and it did it all with a pile of bash scripts and a little python here and there. Want to use systemd because you have a use case that would benefit from it? Go right ahead! The engineering work is done, no need for fights on the mailing list. Don't want to use systemd? `eudev` to the rescue! There are sound engineering reasons for not using systemd while also wanting to use some other (seemingly) completely unrelated piece of software that just happens to have a dependency on the kitchen sink. Despite being a rolling release distribution, I find that the UX and workflows are more stable over long periods of time than any of the more popular LTS style distros. When I started fiddling with Ubuntu so that I could help my colleagues debug issues it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that there isn't really such a thing as Ubuntu, just 14.04, 16.04, 18.04, etc. Each is some different form the other that stack overflow questions from one LTS are often simply wrong for another. Writing this I wonder whether rolling release distros aren't effectively the original form of chaos engineering -- if everything is going to be changing all the time then it forces the developers to solve a different and perhaps more fundamental set of problems and ultimately leads to greater stability in the long run.

jmclnx 6y ago

Well they forgot to list Slackware. It does not use systemd either. edit: just read it again, it is a list of OS he likes, so it was not an omission :)

jbnorth 6y ago

Maybe I'm just out of the loop but what is the controversy regarding systemd?

Teknoman117 6y ago
Starting this off with a disclaimer that these are things I've heard or read, and aren't necessarily a statement of my views. The controversy mainly surrounds the claim that it is a single package that tries to do way too much by itself. Calling systemd an init system isn't correct. systemd contains many things, one of which is an init system. The other claim is that the systemd developers aren't open to much outside opinion, but have power over the community because important parts of basically all desktop Linux systems are now part of systemd and have strong dependencies on it (such as udev).
- shrimp_emoji 6y ago
  For example, systemd timers (timed systemctl services) are like cron if cron was slightly more complicated and had very good logging. :3
  - yarrel 6y ago
    journalctl is a text adventure fever dream. Do systemd timers use a different logging system?
    - simcop2387 6y ago
      Nope, they go straight to journald.
    - deadbunny 6y ago
      You can output journald to syslog with one config option[1]. 1. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journald.service.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-jou...
      - 6y ago

coleifer 6y ago

OpenBSD dabs on this list from the towering arches of the heavens.

fuball63 6y ago
I was surprised none of the bsd flavors, freebsd, netbsd, openbsd weren't on the list. Your comment phrasing made me chuckle too.

stevebmark 6y ago

It's weird linux folk hold such strong opinions about something so old and well established that doesn't matter at all.

pengaru 6y ago
You must not appreciate that the systemd name is overloaded; there's systemd PID1 the init daemon, and systemd the Katamari Damacy of Linux project. Most contention is over the latter, not so much the former by itself.

branon 6y ago

Plug for Void, the community recently added support[0] for the Pinebook Pro, so it's been my daily driver for a few months now. [0] https://github.com/void-linux/void-mklive/issues/105 https://github.com/void-linux/void-mklive/issues/105

drudru11 6y ago
Whoa - nice. I just ordered one in March. I was OK with having to try manjaro, but i wanted to try void. Thanks for sharing this.
delcaran 6y ago
Thanks! I just reinstalled Manjaro yesterday, but I guess I will be installing Void today!
bsg75 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what makes Void a preferred OS for you on a laptop compared to something “common” like Ubuntu or Fedora?

kitotik 6y ago

At what point is it just systemdOS?

pengaru 6y ago
GNOME OS is already a thing
- SolarTransport 6y ago
  I'm personally waiting for GLaDOS
pnako 6y ago
Lennax
hedora 6y ago
SystemDOS Denial of service today. Disk operating system when they reinvent FAT poorly.

tramtrist 6y ago

Slackware. Now and forever.

mythrwy 6y ago
14.2 now and forever tho?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

teleforce 6y ago

Shepherd is probably a good alternative, and it can be used standalone or with Guix: https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/ https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/

efiecho 6y ago

Just finished reading Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, and if we could travel back and show the original hackers at MIT things we use in 2020 like systemd, electron etc. I think they would be in complete disbelief over the amount of bloat, and ask us why we stopped caring and started to accept software design like that.

shrimp_emoji 6y ago
That's because those hackers are in the frontline of the last war (which we don't have to fight anymore). :v Crossplatformness or security or convenience in exchange for bloat are all EZ trades. 2.8/62.8 GB of RAM used right now, btw.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ppf 6y ago

No mention of Devuan, a fork of Debian for the sole purpose of removing systemd (and they're also not a fan of dbus, for reasons that escape me).

bmn__ 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17178161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17178161

itsajoke 6y ago

They forgot to mention Windows and MacOS.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

combatentropy 6y ago

To the commenters: this article explicitly wasn't meant to be exhaustive or even introductory. The two links he embeds near the beginning were: - Linux distributions without systemd (https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-sy...) - Operating systems without systemd (https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Linux_distributions_without_systemd https://web.archive.org/web/20190208034948/http://without-sy...) Then he adds, "Here I’m just going to mention a few operating systems that I personally have found interesting." So these few are just ones where he thought he had something fresh to say. He did not aim to compete with the more objective lists he just mentioned.