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Agreed, sadly the demand is still there. It's so easy to get huge loans and as a result, there is no downward pressure on price. My tiny college had 5 full-time

• irishcoffee 6y ago
  The problem is the loans. I have a funny feeling if loans were capped at say, 10k/year, colleges might all the sudden charge 11k/year to attend instead of 30k...
  • lumost 6y ago
    One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a median household income of 75k, and a median home price of 450k.
    • ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      Because many (most?) states have been cutting state funding for public universities for years, IIRC. (See, for example, https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-realize-state-funding-for-higher-ed-fell-by-billions https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/most-americans-dont-r...). It wouldn't have been sensible to impose price caps while cutting funding at the same time.
      • wincy 6y ago
        If I’m a Republican legislator and I’m seeing my kids enroll at a state college where gender and queer studies classes are a requirement to get a computer science degree, I’m going to want to defund too. I remember my Republican high school peers arguing with our liberal debate coach, and he’d just laugh and say “wait until you go to college, then you’ll get it”. Sure enough, she went to Harvard Law and became a Democrat. The indoctrination is there and if monetary compensation isn’t the reason professors get into teaching, what is? If you have a mission to “educate young minds” to reject their “problematic” notions, that can be a strong motivator. There’s a strong culture war aspect to defund colleges, because you’re essentially funding the opposition if you’re a conservative and you’re paying the salaries of the extremely liberal college professors. Then people say obnoxious, arrogant things like “well reality has a liberal bent” and other platitudes to explain away why conservatives voices have been systematically excluded from college campuses over decades.
        • ThrowawayR2 6y ago
          Universities are also the place that turn out STEM graduates and Ph.Ds: engineers (the non-software kind, where you actually need and use the education), physicians, scientists and researchers of all flavors (like the kind trying to find a cure for COVID-19), and so forth. These people are the pillars of progress and innovation necessary for a country to be great. Ironically, by defunding universities, culture warrior conservatives are effectively slitting their own country's throat. (Personally, I had no use for the ideologues either but managed to avoid them by simply not taking any of their classes; foreign language courses are a great way of filling humanities requirements with something actually useful.)
        • sysbin 6y ago
          Did you find anything in the previous comments for needing to write this nonsensical opinion?
        • eli_gottlieb 6y ago
          "Crippling the young with lifelong debt to win the campus culture-wars and own the libs."
        • JadeNB 6y ago
          "Educated people become liberals" isn't the knock against liberals, or education, that you seem to think it is.
        • N1H1L 6y ago
          State schools in US are often the best STEM schools. I have cried myself hoarse on HN trying to make this simple point - but except for Cornell, every Ivy League is ordinary in engineering and the hard sciences.
          • dmoy 6y ago
            Do we include math and physics in there? If so there might be a couple other exceptions there.
            • 6y ago
    • gowld 6y ago
      Are you asking why state governments choose to collect easy money from voluntary taxes funded by Federal government backed loans?
    • raiyu 6y ago
      What I read was that the reason for in-state college tuition increasing so much was because of the reduction in property taxes. Typically property taxes go towards education at the local level, and as property taxes were reduced there would be a shortfall in the budget somewhere. This typically fell on education, which then forced colleges to start raising tuition as there is still a non-zero cost to education. There was a "print" article about this in the 70's or 80's in a local newspaper in California urging residents to vote NO on lowering property taxes citing the increase in future college education as the main reason. But the vote went through, property taxes were slashed, and then of course ten years later and so forth, tuition had sky rocketed. Decreasing taxes is like debt. Once you are hooked on it it's hard to go back. Hard to imagine any real states or large communities raising property taxes significantly to actually reinvest in the local community.
      • yardie 6y ago
        In my state, FL, derives most of it's income from sales taxes and fees. Property taxes are really local, down to the county and city. > Decreasing taxes is like debt. Once you are hooked on it it's hard to go back. Well some voters see the taxes as an investment in their city and community. My city passed a referendum to back a bond to pay for climate change projects and education programs. The state passed a constitutional change that has made it virtually impossible to raise taxes. When I look at the midwest and the hollowing out of their cities I have to imagine the tax cuts partially contributed. But at the time they passed the politicians believed they would be a net positive. It's a delicate balance. Taxes too high will drive businesses away. Taxes too low will reduce communal investment and drive people away.
    • megiddo 6y ago
      So, to be clear, price controls never work. Prices are determined (mostly and usually) by supply and demand. More demand -> higher price. More supply -> lower price. The price of an education (regardless of cost structures, public funding, or whatever) is going to dominated by demand, since supply is relatively fixed. It takes years or decades to increase the supply of qualified instruction following typical university models. In this case Federal dollars guarantee a massive surplus of demand, while Federal accreditation limits supply (rightly or wrongly). "Public" schools are paid by students, just like private, as a fee-for-service product. For most educations at most universities, this service is largely indistinguishable. Some of the University income comes from tax offsets, but the product they provide is the same service and on the same market as private universities - fee-based educational services. The price is therefor entirely determined by the amount of supply (relatively fixed) and the amount of demand for fee-based education. Demand has risen dramatically since WW2 due to a bevvy of Federal programs designed to underwrite and promote post-secondary education. No amount of legal wrangling or tax-offsetting will defeat that. In fact, by increasing tax-offsets for public universities, the apparent price of the service supplied by public universities drops (relative to the market price), which is a signal to buyers that they should buy MORE of that service. This signal would naturally increase demand until the price of a public education on the market matches the price of the same education at private institutions. The actual oddity is not that public education pricing keeps rising to private institutional pricing, but that it is not already at the same price. Prices drive expense-side efficiency. An operation (such as a University) will not be mechanically driven to keep costs significantly lower than income - most are non-profit. There is no reason to "increase margin". Most Universities are already teaching at capacity. Since the price is set by the market, there is no reason to keep prices significantly below the market rate. Instead, the costs associated with an education simply rise to meet whatever revenue can be generated from a fixed pool of buyers. These buyers have virtually no spending limit, since their purchasing is de facto underwritten by enormous Federal programs. The result year-over-year dramatic price increases. For extra credit, this is largely the same process that drives healthcare pricing in the US. A relatively fixed supply of a specialized service and a price-insensitive buyer pool largely underwritten by massive Federal programs.
      • ridaj 6y ago
    • 0d9eooo 6y ago
      If you can figure out the reasons for university price increases, good luck. It's a combination of a variety of things. One is that increased demand for employers for "certification" of ability pushes demand for degrees among students. Every recession there's articles showing that those with a college degree fare better than those without. We can argue about why that is, but that's what the average 17 yo sees, along with their parents, and they don't want to be left behind, regardless of the details. Another is that loans basically prop that up and facilitate it. So schools don't lose money on people who say "I can't afford it" because they find a way. Another is the increasing administrative bloat at universities, which are now largely run like for-profit institutions even when they are not on paper. I think this is similar to a lot of fields, but my sense is that (based on personal experience) things are much more hierarchical now, with more of a focus on exploiting the university for personal gain than anything else. So administrative salary costs, and administrative costs in general, drive up the need for costs. The public colleges have to compete for private colleges for faculty, administrators, etc. which then increases their costs, which then drives them to bigger need for more tuition. At the same time, states have been cutting their funding. If they cut funding and unis have all these fixed costs, where else are they supposed to get money from? A major dynamic between public universities in the US and political circles in the last couple of decades has been an increasing pressure for them to operate as revenue generating, profit-making institutions in every aspect. At the state level, the idea is that their role is to bring in money, at less cost (an alternative is to see them as providing a service to the state and country -- can you imagine wanting K-12 schools to be treated as profit-making ??? ). As a result, what we've ended up with are institutions with a lot of profit-seeking administrators, pyramid schemes, taking advantage of federal funding loopholes at every chance to bring in money, etc. Public universities should be able to offer a good value to students, but they're being run as profit centers. If you think of it that way, it's no surprise tuition isn't competitive.
      • N1H1L 6y ago
        Also have you seen how much reporting requirements have increased for faculty? How much paperwork is needed for grants? Just today there was a story I read about a Georgia Tech professor who is under federal investigation for misrepresentation on her continuing NSF grant. And the money involved was $40,000. And one of her defenses is that Georgia Tech provided very little secretarial services to her. Which may very well be true. Everyone cribs about increased administrative bloat at universities, but given how massively paperwork requirements have ballooned, nobody is willing to point the figure also at that. Universities are hiring more admin because professors are often overwhelmed with paperwork nowadays.
• hnburnsy 6y ago
  My anctedot... My daughter at college has three academic advisors; a general advisor, honors advisor, and her chosen major advisor. Geeesh.
  • gizmo686 6y ago
    And how much "advice" to they give? When I went, the only time you had to talk to your advisor, was once a semester for them to rubber stamp your approval for major-only classes (which the official advisors would defer to in-major professors). Beyond that, you were free to talk to advisors on an as needed basis. There role was essentially to be a primary point of contact for students. Why shouldn't a student have multiple advisors. If she has a problem/question with her honors program, ask the honors advisor. If she has a general administrative question, go to the general advisor. Our entire math department was served by two advisors who likely also had non advising administrative duties. My honors advisors were just the main faculty of my honors program. I don't think I ever spoke to my official CS advisor.
    • CydeWeys 6y ago
      I found my CS advisor repeatedly very helpful. I would not have graduated in four years without her advice. So, just because you didn't get value out of it doesn't mean that's true for all students.
  • JadeNB 6y ago
    As a professor who is also a major advisor, I cost nothing, because I'm not paid separately to advise. On the other hand, given the corresponding emphasis on training and evaluation of advising (not much, although our department and college are working to get better at it), my advising is probably worth about what I'm paid for it.
• MattGaiser 6y ago
  How many students? As residence is basically a hotel with 4000-10,000 students, so 6 people seems low if anything.
• burfog 6y ago
  How exactly is it "so easy to get huge loans" for college? My kid needs that, but we see only $5500 available for the first year. Did you instead mean loans that the parent takes on, perhaps as cosigner? I'm seeing nothing beyond $5500 that can be obtained by a student.
  • jimbokun 6y ago
    I think if you're low income, you qualify for a lot more loans.