17 ms·

Lamest Edit Wars

441 points by ag8 6y ago

willio58 6y ago
The examples here are hilarious. > Angels & Airwaves: Forty-six reverts in one hour by two editors. The point of contention? Whether "Angels & Airwaves" is a band or "Angels & Airwaves" are a band. (British English requires "are", as the band comprises multiple people, while American English requires "is", as the band is a singular entity.) ALL-CAPS edit summaries laced with profanity and death threats liberally employed by one side.
- keiferski 6y ago
  It's my impression that most articles on Wikipedia are written in American English, except for ones specifically relating to Britain. Is that correct?
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Basically, the first person to write an article gets to choose unless its something related to a particular region. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Nati...
    - keiferski 6y ago
      Interesting, thanks.
    - quietbritishjim 6y ago
      Infamously including the British English spelling of "colour" in the article "Orange (colour)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(colour) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(colour)
      - KMag 6y ago
        Ahh, yes, the HMS Rururu set alight in Boston harbor while unloading a bunch of printed Us and loading up a cargo of spoken Rs. To this day, Americans are almost as stingy with their written Us as the Brits are with their spoken Rs.
        juped 6y ago
        "British spellings" are an affectation Brits developed to make their language look more French and therefore more prestigious; Americans, who know we're the equals of France, kept the older spellings as recorded by Webster.
        LyndsySimon 6y ago
        The "just so" story that I've heard is that post-colonial Americans have dropped the "u" from "-our" words for two reasons: efficiency, and to set them apart from the English. I was also under the impression that the "efficiency" argument was at least partially influenced by Thomas Jefferson. I just did a brief search and I wasn't able to find reference to this online, but from my visits to his home at Monticello I recall that he had a unique style of writing - for instance, he tended not to use capital letters in his personal notes. He seems like exactly the kind of person who would have been vocally in favor of dropping unvocalized letters from words.
        juped 6y ago
        The 'u's are attributable to Dr. Johnson (and his desire to make English seem more French and therefore prestigious), but by the 18th century the cultures of Britain and America had diverged quite a bit. No 'u's were ever dropped - they were added - so I doubt this story. (Americans definitely liked setting ourselves apart, though.)
    - Svip 6y ago
      Which is why the article about GTA4, for instance, specifically mentions it is written in British English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Grand_Theft_Auto_IV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Grand_Theft_Auto_IV
- emmelaich 6y ago
  Time to start an en-gb wikipedia! (or is it en-uk? Hmmm)
  - robin_reala 6y ago
    It’s en-GB; Northern Ireland gets no say in language specification. (en-UK would be the hypothetical Ukrainian variant of English.)
    - keiferski 6y ago
      Oddly enough the Ukraine metaphor is pretty apt when comparing English to Russian, considering that Eastern Slavic languages came out of Kyiv / Kievan Rus civilization, just as American English originated in England.
    - MichaelMoser123 6y ago
      now that would imply that England would have to conquer (the) Ukraine in the event that Scotland quits. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 )
      - robin_reala 6y ago
        Wouldn’t be the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
      - OJFord 6y ago
        I doubt the names would change, personally, but even if they did it would presumably be to 'United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland' (ordering up for hot debate, I'm sure, here I've just replaced GB with consitituents, alphabetised, and removed Scotland ;)) - still a UK. But I don't think that would happen because I don't see why Scotland would want to leave the UK but cling to 'we are still in GB -- no-no, it's geographical guys'. You don't hear the Republic of Ireland self-descring as 'in the British Isles' much, that I'm aware of.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  I had no idea this is different in BrE and AmE! What are some other such grammatical differences?
  - pilaf 6y ago
    Not a native English speaker, bit I think got (Br) vs. gotten (Am)? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gotten https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gotten
    - loeg 6y ago
      AmE definitely uses both. "I got sick" or "I've gotten sick" are both understandable.
      - ziftface 6y ago
        I think this is in reference to the past perfect tense specifically. So "I have gotten sick" vs "I have got sick". I don't know if the latter is actually used in British English, but it's my understanding that the former would never be used since it's grammatically incorrect in that dialect.
        mehrdadn 6y ago
        You have got to be kidding me! Neither dialect says you have gotten to be kidding me, right?
        willyt 6y ago
        Its not formal english though. The British informal equivalent would be 'you're having me on!' or 'you're having a laugh!' or (rude) 'you're taking the piss'
    - kentosi 6y ago
      Australian here and we definitely use "gotten": - I've gotten to know him. - I hadn't gotten the concept yet, but then ... etc. I think it's the British that have lost the use of "gotten" in favour of "got".
- petjuh 6y ago
  OK, I had to search for the edits themselves, they're at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Angels_%26_Airwaves&offset=20060222015316&limit=50&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Angels_%26_Airwav... Here's a sample: 23:37, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - FOR THE LAST TIME, STOP AND DON'T COME BACK! undo 23:35, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - TYKELL, CAN YOU DO ME A FAVOR? DIE! undo 23:34, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - crying PLEASE STOP, PLEASE, I'M BEGGING YOU crying undo 23:33, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - I HAVE A GUN, I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU NOW! shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot undo 23:31, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - YOU REALLY HAVE TO STOP, FOR THE VERY LAST TIME, STOP OR I'LL KILL YOU! undo 23:30, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO STOP, BUT YOU HAVE TO STOP undo
  - MichaelMoser123 6y ago
    i think that might actually be the way how they start real wars in the real world.
  - Juliate 6y ago
    It almost reads like lyrics of a comedy song.
    - GrumpyNl 6y ago
      Southpark comes to to mind with the super trolls
  - smcl 6y ago
    It looks like it dies down shortly afterwards but the next day someone gets unblocked ... 00:09, 23 February 2006‎ Tykell talk contribs‎ 11,705 bytes -1‎ No, we can't. Don't you know when to quit, kid? undo 23:42, 22 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 11,706 bytes +1‎ now that I'm unblocked and this page is unprotected we can change it undo I think if you're all-caps screaming you've lost the argument, and seeing this I'm actually quite embarrassed for the guy. Personally I think "$band is good" or "$team is winning" does sound a bit silly, but I've seen it so many times that I'm kinda used to it. Besides I suspect the same is true for an American hearing "$band are good" or "$team are winning". Either way it definitely doesn't warrant losing your cool like this.
- randyrand 6y ago
  The Beatles are sounds more correct to me.
  - INTPenis 6y ago
    What about Nirvana? Or Metallica? I think in the case of "The Beatles" it's clear cut because it sounds like you're talking about insects. But in other cases I think both sound ok because you could either be talking about a group of people, or a movement or a brand.
    - nfg 6y ago
      All I can say as a speaker of non-US English is that “Metallica is” and “Nirvana is” still sound completely wrong to my ear.
      - vanderZwan 6y ago
        As non-native speaker I think I'd intuitively go with “Metallica is” and “Nirvana is”, but “The Beatles are”. I guess my brain is more wired towards whether the name itself is plural or not.
        ajuc 6y ago
        Same, but I realized I'm just going with my native language rules on that one.
        TulliusCicero 6y ago
        Congrats, you're American.
        roelschroeven 6y ago
        What about "Dire Straits"? Also plural, but grammatically completely different from "The Beatles" (by which I mean: you could say that John Lennon was a Beatle, but you can't refer to Mark Knopfler as a Dire Strait)
- galuggus 6y ago
  It's quite useful. For example Brazil ARE the best (refers to the Brazilian football team). Whereas Brazil IS the best refers to the country. Chelsea is good could refer to the place or a person. Chelsea are good refers to the team.
  - DFHippie 6y ago
    Single sentence utterances like this are rare. In context this distinction doesn't actually provide non-redundant information. So calling this "quite useful" is a bit of a stretch.
    - dan-robertson 6y ago
      It is however generally useful to have lots of redundancy in speech. It can help to sort out mishearings and misspeakings. Similarly in handwritten text.
- jccalhoun 6y ago
  I've noticed there is also seems to be debate over present vs past tense. I've looked up a few bands to see if they were still active and sometimes it seems like they still use "is" instead of "was" but sometimes they do use "was."
- cryptica 6y ago
  I actually prefer the American reasoning but 'are' is still OK in both cases because you can substitute "Angels & Airwaves" by 'singular they'. E.g. "Angels & Airwaves is a band. Some would say that they are a great band." or "The editor became frustrated because they could not understand the logic".
- 6510 6y ago
  If they are 2 languages they shouldn't share a wiki. It could be heavily interlinked but duplicating an article into the British English wiki doesn't seem like a problem (all language wikipedias do it) Other language wikipedias also value topics differently. A British English wikipedia would prefer citations from Britain. In many national cases it would merit having more than one article or articles of different opinion.
  - poutrathor 6y ago
    silly though ! and which wikipedia would be in English while the other pages are in American English (or in British English). I mean, neither side would accept their language name to be prefixed ; they are already infighting about what's the correct way to speak English.
    - 6510 6y ago
      Simply US vs UK ?
skrap 6y ago
Most of these are about people's (or groups') nationality. Man, tribalism sucks!
- noizejoy 6y ago
  > tribalism sucks Arguably tribalism is just the consequence of our species being social animals, and therefore at the core of our essence - for better and worse ...
  - jccalhoun 6y ago
    [citation needed]
    - noizejoy 6y ago
      lol - were you still in wikipedia editor mode when you wrote that? Or do you really feel that my comment needed a citation here on HN (Hacker News)? And if it’s the latter, I’m genuinely curious what the proper HN etiquette would be. My comment wasn’t attempting to be particularly scholarly or to be included in a referencable work. Quite honestly, I wouldn’t know which reference to pull? Wikipedia? A highly Google ranked Psychology Today magazine article (q= difference+between+tribalism+vs+social+behaviour) ? The entire Google search result link? At least 2 of the above options might have been interpreted as condescending, and the other one an almost random pick, the randomness of it becoming a potential point of critique. So I’m genuinely curious how I might have done better.
      - jccalhoun 6y ago
        It was half joking. On the serious side, I am always skeptical of claims about human nature.
        noizejoy 6y ago
        and here I thought that using “arguably” in my post would communicate that not everyone might agree. - Oh well ...
reificator 6y ago
I'm quite fond of the Star_trek: INto DaRkneSS edit war that was covered by XCKD awhile back. https://xkcd.com/1167/ https://xkcd.com/1167/
anigbrowl 6y ago
Encyclopaedia Dramatica was an entire (and large) wiki written almost exclusively in this irreverent-to-obnoxious tone, but the entire site is offline because the administrator went to jail for something that isn't even interesting. Well, there's always http://n-gate.com/ http://n-gate.com/
yongjik 6y ago
Glad to see both the Island of Dokdo (a.k.a. Takeshima) and Sea of Japan (a.k.a. the East Sea) are recognized, but it missed my favorite(?) edit war: was An(Ahn) Jung-geun, a Korean nationalist who shot and killed Japanese Prime Minister Ito Hirobumi one year before Japan's annexation of Korea, a terrorist? Should he be included in "Category: Terrorists"? You decide!
- james_s_tayler 6y ago
  Don't you mean Takeshima a.k.a Dokdo?
  - yongjik 6y ago
    HOW DARE YOU
- knolax 6y ago
  Calling An Jung-Geun a terrorist would be akin to calling George Washington a terrorist. The difference between freedom fighter and terrorist may be murky to some, but generally tact dictates that you don't call someone a terrorist if his faction goes on to establish a recognized sovereign state, especially if the side he was opposing was literally comitting genocide.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I expect it would be a matter of some controversy if George Washington had started the revolution by shooting Lord Dunmore.
  - lifthrasiir 6y ago
    The word terrorist can have either a literal meaning (who intentionally uses violence for their goals) or a politically charged meaning (who does that illegitimately, with some---varying---definition of "illegitimately"). The former is very clear, while everyone will have different opinions on the latter (hey, I think the opposing state is still not compensating genocide's victims). I wouldn't mind labelling An Jung-Geun as the former for that reason, just make sure that the label is clearly documented.
6510 6y ago
These are hardly as lame as it gets.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- OrgNet 6y ago
  That is Wikipedia (you know what to do)
  - 6510 6y ago
    I gave up long ago. There are guidelines for everything but it takes 1000 times the so called established editors time to enforce them. Very few people are willing to take up tasks like that. Those who do might be unable to write articles which makes their review more of an outside look. I don't see a way to progress. Its a kind of public secret that one should avoid working on topics where editors might disagree. I find those to be the more interesting ones.
throwawayjava 6y ago
The "Ethnic and national feuds" section seems like it gets a certain point across: things that seem silly in current context were extraordinarily important cultural touch-points at one point, and could well become so again. E.g., the U2 Irish/UK thing. Easy to laugh at today, but equally easy to understand why to some people at some point in time nationality difference between Irish and UK really mattered. Most flamewars are just real arguments that happen in the wrong time/place/tenor. OFC some examples are clearly just the product of either drugs or a bad week, or more likely both. Kind of like reading slashdot articles about "websites", hacker news articles about "capitalism", or newspaper article comment sections about "immigrants" in the late 20th/early 21st century. Or whatever. You get the point ;)
- MatekCopatek 6y ago
  Meh, dunno - a lot of people having strong opinions and emotions doesn't really mean the fact they're discussing is important. Let's say my parents are from A, I was born in B and live in C. There was an important and well known historical conflict between A, B and C fueled by nationalism at some point. I am an established artist/scientist and I don't care about my own nationality. Is it important that people flame about it on my wiki article?
ericzawo 6y ago
This. This is what the internet is all about.
incompatible 6y ago
Not an edit war, but I was amazed at the time about the discussion over the name of the Río de la Plata article, which just went on and on and on. I didn't contribute. The article at the time was just a tiny stub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata/name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata/name
yummypaint 6y ago
The section on images is great. Should there be a picture of a big spider on the arachnophobia page? Which anus is most representative of humanity? The (ro)bot wars section may be of particular interest to HN
- stonecharioteer 6y ago
  I would like the photos on a phobia page to be blurred or to have a button that hides by default. I have thalassophobia and gigantophobia. It's a weird cross section of giant statues and depths. So I have a huge fear of bigass statues partially or fully submerged. So needless to day, most of the posts on /r/thalassophobia make me so scared. What if I want to reach out to that subreddit for help and support in overcoming my fear? It's extremely scary.
  - dmos62 6y ago
    That's fascinating. I wish we could ask your subconscious "what's the story behind that?".
  - swiley 6y ago
    If I where you I would open the page in elinks but I know not everyone uses that regularly and might not be familiar with it.
  - juped 6y ago
    Trauma from one of the many movies featuring the Statue of Liberty underwater?
  - andai 6y ago
    The r/__phobia subs are equivalent to r/__porn tbh
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
chkaloon 6y ago
I just came here because "The Intervention of the Sabine Women" is one of my favorite paintings.
- ggm 6y ago
  My mum,an art historian took us to the Louvre as kids and this picture is "nice firemen rescuing women". the gericault "raft of medusa" will always be "the Tintin picture" As well (same trip).
  - chkaloon 6y ago
    I saw it at the Louvre as well. I saw it as a group of women taking charge because the men were being a-holes.
downshun 6y ago
Wasting time about wasting time. So meta.
TrackerFF 6y ago
I'm surprised that there's no entry for "Is Finland part of Scandinavia?". Always leads to heated debates with lots of technicalities.
- Tistron 6y ago
  That's funny. I immediately noticed in me "what?! It clearly isn't!". Not sure why I have a strong opinion on that, but I find it enlightening in this context.
- boomlinde 6y ago
  As a Swede, I've honestly never heard this being debated.
  - freeflight 6y ago
    As a not-Swede, I know it as a friendly joke by Scandinavia and the World [0] [0] https://satwcomic.com/no-invitation https://satwcomic.com/no-invitation
- goto11 6y ago
  Wat? It obviously isn't. Scandinavia is characterized by mutually intelligible languages (at least in theory), and Finnish is clearly unintelligible. It is part of the Nordic countries though.
jedberg 6y ago
The saddest part about this page are the warnings and the fact that they felt these needed to exist: “This section is intended as humor. It is not, has never been, nor will ever be, a Wikipedia policy or guideline. Rather, it illustrates standards or conduct that are generally not accepted by the Wikipedia community.”
- notRobot 6y ago
  It's not sad. Wikipedia is supposed to be a serious source of information, and is used by people from all over the world, many of whom may not "get" this kind of humour. The warnings make sense.
- yongjik 6y ago
  Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another meta-edit-war where someone exclaimed "Guys, stop, you are featured in _Lamest Edit Wars_ page!" and a lengthy discussion ensued whether being featured in the page implies the edit dispute was in "bad faith" (or whatever wiki-ism they use these days), and the disclaimer was a result of that.
- RobertoG 6y ago
  I think it's an interesting page. It shows human nature. That the edit wars themselves (lame or not) can be query should be interesting for the students of the human mind and, maybe, even for future historians because it shows what was important in our time.
paganel 6y ago
Re: Ányos Istvan Jedlik, I've had a uni colleague and former friend of mine who shared a given name with this inventor and whose family name was 95% similar to his, and seeing as we both live and used to study in Romania (where even the ethnic Hungarians' family names don't generally sound like this) I was curious at first what nationality he was, he told me that he's not sure either, part-Hungarian, part-Slovak. Maybe a similar approach could have been used in this inventor's case (i.e. using the "part-" thing)
- MatekCopatek 6y ago
  Kudos for trying to find a sensible solution, but most of these disputes aren't about determining which geographical area a person and/or their ancestors stem from - that would be relatively simple to resolve with sources which are typically available. Modern nationality is a highly complex topic related to not only geography, but also politics, language, religion etc. Often a dispute is not about providing information on a historical figure, but about "claiming" important people for your nation so that your collective "historical importance" is increased.
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6nf 6y ago
The lower the stakes the fiercer the competition
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  What's that Kissinger quote? Something like "the reason fights in academia are so intense is because the stakes are so small."
Kyro38 6y ago
Endive ou Chicon ? https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Guerres_d%27%C3%A9dition_les_plus_futiles https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Guerres_d%27%C3...
- reyqn 6y ago
  Is chicon the new chocolatine?
m463 6y ago
This is a very long, debate-fueled, page. It reminds me of the page on Toilet Paper[1]. It is 35,330 bytes Meanwhile the page on Toilet Paper Orientation[2], of which there are two choices: - OVER - UNDER goes on and on, and manages to weigh in almost 50% larger than toilet paper at 49,667 bytes. Amusingly, "vertical" is actually mentioned, but how a hero got that in, I don't know. Probably killed or captured. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation
- YetAnotherNick 6y ago
  Is it just me or someone else also read all the 49,667 bytes of Toilet paper orientation.
  - glaberficken 6y ago
    guilty
  - binarymax 6y ago
    Which conclusions have you drawn and have you changed to (or solidified) the correct OVER orientation now?
    - 6510 6y ago
      I have an interesting fact not mentioned in the article. Vandals may put the end of the paper in the toilet before flushing. In the over orientation the paper hangs closer to the toilet and is less likely to break.
      - binarymax 6y ago
        How many vandals are in your home? :)
- glaberficken 6y ago
  >Amusingly, "vertical" is actually mentioned, but how a hero got that in, I don't know. Probably killed or captured. But then the discussion becomes between "left" or "right"...definitely don't want to go there!
milot 6y ago
The upload war for the territory of Kosovo is not a lame one, it is still a highly heated dialogue amongst politicians of both countries. While this topic had consequences during the 1999 war between Kosovo and Serbia, is still present today for which US is actively involved in this dialogue for that particular map this wouldn't classify as lame.
- MatekCopatek 6y ago
  An edit war being lame doesn't mean the article topic is lame. The lameness comes from both sides taking their own opinion and using the article to present it as the one and only truth. An atheist and a christian could have an edit war on the article of Jesus, changing it between "Son of God and our Saviour" and "fairy tale character used to control masses", which would be absolutely lame despite the objective importance of the religious figure in question. And while sensible people can at least resolve religious issues by accepting that they simply have opposing beliefs and no ability to disprove the other side, politics are even more complex in the sense that they include a lot of historical facts, not just ideological beliefs. This makes it more likely for people to feel like their truth is objective.
  - milot 6y ago
    Understood, but again this is not an easy topic such as the example you gave between an Atheist and a Christian. This is something tangible which is still present and not something fictional or a belief.
    - MatekCopatek 6y ago
      This is what I was referring to in my last paragraph. We didn't discover concepts like country and nation, we invented them. They're very real and have a profound effect on our lives, but at the same time they are completely fictional. If everyone ceases to believe in them, they disappear.
- dmos62 6y ago
  Are these descriptions mutually exclusive? Is a territory dispute inherently above heritage dispute (in terms of vanity)? When something escalates to violence, does it become less vain (supposing vanity is what causes "lameness")? I would not say that people feeling strongly about something (and willing to act boldly because of it) somehow validates them or their conflict. That's what lameness means: is something socially accepted or condemned.
aaron695 6y ago
Go meta meta, you know you want to - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Lamest_edit_wars&offset=&limit=500&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:La...
interblag 6y ago
This opinion could easily spark one of these wars, but I really wish a global community like Wikipedia wouldn't use ablest language in a title of a post like this... (caveating that I realize the concept of caring about ablest language is relatively new for most people, and that this type of language is deeply ingrained in our cultural subconscious, but it still doesn't cost much to try to avoid it where we can...)
- HoppyHaus 6y ago
  "It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."
  - rxhernandez 6y ago
    It's worth considering that those words shouldn't have existed in the first place. How would you handle "lame" being substituted with something overtly racist?
    - Gibbon1 6y ago
      How about you have a peanut and go do this stuff somewhere it's more appreciated.
      - rxhernandez 6y ago
        "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." It looks like I'm in a place where it is appreciated. It's worth considering that your reply wouldn't fit in with this community's guidelines.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        Seriously you're being toxic.
- Angostura 6y ago
mertnesvat 6y ago
After reading some of them, it became obvious nationality and the race always creates a funny conflict :) In good dishes like hummus or people who accomplished something, all nationalities want to be part of their success.
geoffbp 6y ago
Oh geez, some people have a lot more spare time than me
- LyndsySimon 6y ago
  ... or some people have radically different priorities :)
McTossOut 6y ago
There's a certain vibe in this article, it's like Steve Irwin, or Bill Nye giving exposition, Wikipedia is sorely missing this.
cs02rm0 6y ago
Has anyone ever made an edit on Wikipedia without someone trying to start an edit war? I think it's actually worse than StackOverflow.
- kieckerjan 6y ago
  I dread making changes to wikipedia for this reason. You invest time and energy to research something and write it up and then some semi anonymous bastard comes along and deletes it. Frustrating and a waste of effort. At least that was what I used to think until recently. I spotted such a glaring omission on the Dutch wikipedia that I felt morally compelled to remedy it myself. I did the edit and sure enough within five minutes I was alerted that someone else had edited my edit. Turns out he had just fixed a typo, sent me a thank you and added a new section of his own on something unrelated. For what it is worth, it was an uplifting little experience.
  - andai 6y ago
    That's nice to hear. What did you add?
    - kieckerjan 6y ago
      To the item on woodpeckers: why the little buggers don't get headaches. The explanation is actually quite interesting, look it up!
  - Jay2wu2u 6y ago
    I used to contribute a lot to wikipedia in its early days in the 2000' and faced the same frustrating experience. I think this just happens to everybody, from what I heard from other editors. I would expect it to be even worse now that wp is well established and editors do not have to make a common front against academics' denigration. Still, wp is in my view easily the biggest achievement of the web, and I still care for it. I would often fix small issues, like you mention, this does not trigger any hostile response. Something else I found to work quite well to contribute without risking annoying conflicts : to translate articles from en.wp to other languages if their pages don't exist yet on the localized one. And of course, there always need help to revert vandalisms. Also, I would recommend against having an account. Being IP based editor makes you more subject to scrutiny, but this prevents people deciding they don't like you based on your history. That's an advice I would give for any public discussion on the web, though (by always using fresh accounts).
Jay2wu2u 6y ago
A funny effect of this page : it seems to me that the discussion around it on HN is way less bitterly contradictory than usual. Well, that's my impression at least, I haven't measured it.
gerdesj 6y ago
Well there's a thing: There are two types of vampire hunter here in the UKoGB&NI! "two opposing factions of British vampire hunters (the "orthodox" Vampire Research Society and the "revisionist" Highgate Vampire Society, "
- HeadsUpHigh 6y ago
  Die heretic!
umaar 6y ago
I repurposed a WebGL globe to visualise anonymous Wikipedia edits made around the world: https://umaar.com/globe/ https://umaar.com/globe/ This is the original, which visualised tweets: https://github.com/cedricpinson/globetweeter https://github.com/cedricpinson/globetweeter
- danparsonson 6y ago
  Very nice! Just a small note of correction - you seem to be showing Korea as 'JPN'
- asaibx 6y ago
  Beautiful! Reminds me a bit of Hatnote's Listen to Wikipedia [0]. [0]: http://listen.hatnote.com/ http://listen.hatnote.com/
omega3 6y ago
It makes me wonder why are editorial pieces like this one hosted on official wikipedia page. Branding a discussion as a lame diminishes the importance of the discussion. Taking as an example Chopin, the whole importance of of him being considered a Pole is reduced (you can even see it in the comments in this thread) to accusations of nationalism and tribalism. I'm worried that next time someone tries to take a more nuanced, more informed approach to editing they will stop themselves in the fear of being included in a piece like this.
- huskyr 6y ago
  Note that this article is not hosted in the official 'article' namespace, but in the 'Wikipedia' namespace (hence the Wikipedia: in the article title), which is specifically reserved for non-encyclopaedic content, including editorial pieces and opinions.
  - omega3 6y ago
    It's hosted on wikipedia.org, follows the stylesheet for Wikipedia articles and below it states: "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
    - unethical_ban 6y ago
      The point made is that it is on a kind of "meta" article. In book terms, imagine it being in some kind of "Extras" volume of the Encyclopaedia Wikipedia, not under "L" for "Lame Edit Wars".
    - chris_wot 6y ago
      No, it’s not in the main article namespace. Meta discussions happen here. Anything with Wikipedia: in front of them are not articles. Some places are horrific. The admin’s noticeboard (incidents) is horrible. Sadly it was an initiative I started over a decade ago.
- bityard 6y ago
  What makes these arguments lame is that they are _extremely unimportant_ in the grand scheme of things. People take up sides on trivial topics as a hobby or escape. This article is an excellent summation of how silly and petty people get when arguing over minutia online. > I'm worried that next time someone tries to take a more nuanced, more informed approach to editing they will stop themselves in the fear of being included in a piece like this. Good! That's exactly why this article exists. Because for every person who _doesn't_ come across this article and draws a conclusion based on a nuanced, informed approach, another person will disagree with them because they drew the _exact opposite_ conclusion based on their own nuanced, informed approach. And then the debate will devolve into an entry on Lamest Edit Wars.
schmudde 6y ago
Wow. This is the perfectly self-referential Wikipedia entry that post-post-modernist plebs want and deserve.
einpoklum 6y ago
Not all these wars are lame: > Various supporters of the US Libertarian party (founded in > 1971) argue that they own the meaning of the word > 'libertarian', that placing it next to 'socialism' is a > contradiction in terms, and hence that libertarian socialism > (described circa 1850) cannot possibly have existed. An edit > war and request-for-deletion war ensues. The question of the meaning of "liberty" and the compatibility of liberty with socialized means of production (and the meaning of "socializing") is quite a deep subject. So, not lame.
- drngdds 6y ago
  It's still quite lame to try and get the article deleted based on that. Libertarian socialism is an ideology which exists and is noteworthy enough to get an encyclopedia article, whether or not the name is self-contradictory.
  - einpoklum 6y ago
    I don't think the deletion is appropriate, but what appears to some people as petty or lame may be ideologically significant to others.
mrcartmenez 6y ago
Oh god that was lame
yitchelle 6y ago
How some of these edits are not attributed to trolling, I don't know.
cyborgx7 6y ago
While most of these are very silly and fun, I have to admit that I do care about some of them. For example about the legitimacy of the "Nobel Prize in Economics" as a real Nobel Prize. In the end, the way history gets written is important for the propaganda of the future. And Wikipedia is the primary authority on truth in the current world. Wether we like it or not.
- wffurr 6y ago
  You know what you have to do. Come back with your shield or on it.
- Tomte 6y ago
  That ship has sailed. The Nobel Foundation lists the economics prize alongside the other ones. If it's your word against theirs, you lose. No matter how "technically right" you are. No matter what Wikipedia writes.
  - cyborgx7 6y ago
    Actually, I have found that if you point this out to people, for a lot of them it will (rightfully) diminish their trust in the institution of the Nobel Foundation, rather than increase their trust in the Economic Prize.
- s_dev 6y ago
  >In the end, the way history gets written is important for the propaganda of the future. I honestly initially didn't care about the British Isles thing til I saw British people start to presume Irish people were naturally British and then use that exact terminology to justify why UK sovereignty should be extended over the entire island. Just imagine if Britain was referred to as an "Irish Isle" and you'll start to see the problem in how people start to view the neighbours not as equals but as one belonging to the other.
iron0013 6y ago
Wow, there are an awful lot of articles plagued by eastern European nationalists trying to re-write history and reality!
gwbas1c 6y ago
This is dangerous: > Be careful to avoid even the semblance of taking sides in the war. If one version was more or less accepted afterwards, it's OK to note that, but the fact that an edit war occurred means that neither side was "in the right all along". What about when one party is actively spreading misinformation? A statement that no one is never right in an edit war just gives misinformation credibility. (Examples could be that smoking is safe, climate change is a hoax, ect.)
- chris_wot 6y ago
  Then it’s not lame. It’s quite serious.
namenotrequired 6y ago
I loved this detail under the discussion of Franz Liszt: > This Liszt is incomplete; you can help Wikipedia by trying not to expand it further.
- Tomte 6y ago
  Some list of serial killers or so (I cannot find it) also contained a plea not to expand it.
  - 37 6y ago
    Yes, it was [0] the list of serial killers by number of victims, but since has changed [1] to say "You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries." [0] https://i.imgur.com/hqiVtK6.png https://i.imgur.com/hqiVtK6.png [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_number_of_victims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_numb...
kyle-rb 6y ago
I enjoyed the C# section on whether it's a real sharp sign or a plain octothorpe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#C# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#C# > The issue was resolved with an e-mail exchange with Microsoft stating that in their view it's an octothorpe symbol representing the sharp symbol, similar to how "<=" represents the less than or equal symbol, and that thus Microsoft does not disagree with ECMA. Written "Netscape" but pronounced "Mozilla", eh?
WCityMike 6y ago
"Wikipedia is a MMORPG for bureaucrats." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_an_MMORPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_an_MMOR...

441 points by ag8 6y ago

The examples here are hilarious. > Angels & Airwaves: Forty-six reverts in one hour by two editors. The point of contention? Whether "Angels & Airwaves" is a band or "Angels & Airwaves" are a band. (British English requires "are", as the band comprises multiple people, while American English requires "is", as the band is a singular entity.) ALL-CAPS edit summaries laced with profanity and death threats liberally employed by one side.

keiferski 6y ago
It's my impression that most articles on Wikipedia are written in American English, except for ones specifically relating to Britain. Is that correct?
- bawolff 6y ago
  Basically, the first person to write an article gets to choose unless its something related to a particular region. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Nati...
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Interesting, thanks.
  - quietbritishjim 6y ago
    Infamously including the British English spelling of "colour" in the article "Orange (colour)". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(colour) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_(colour)
    - KMag 6y ago
      Ahh, yes, the HMS Rururu set alight in Boston harbor while unloading a bunch of printed Us and loading up a cargo of spoken Rs. To this day, Americans are almost as stingy with their written Us as the Brits are with their spoken Rs.
      - juped 6y ago
        "British spellings" are an affectation Brits developed to make their language look more French and therefore more prestigious; Americans, who know we're the equals of France, kept the older spellings as recorded by Webster.
        LyndsySimon 6y ago
        The "just so" story that I've heard is that post-colonial Americans have dropped the "u" from "-our" words for two reasons: efficiency, and to set them apart from the English. I was also under the impression that the "efficiency" argument was at least partially influenced by Thomas Jefferson. I just did a brief search and I wasn't able to find reference to this online, but from my visits to his home at Monticello I recall that he had a unique style of writing - for instance, he tended not to use capital letters in his personal notes. He seems like exactly the kind of person who would have been vocally in favor of dropping unvocalized letters from words.
        juped 6y ago
        The 'u's are attributable to Dr. Johnson (and his desire to make English seem more French and therefore prestigious), but by the 18th century the cultures of Britain and America had diverged quite a bit. No 'u's were ever dropped - they were added - so I doubt this story. (Americans definitely liked setting ourselves apart, though.)
  - Svip 6y ago
    Which is why the article about GTA4, for instance, specifically mentions it is written in British English: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Grand_Theft_Auto_IV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Grand_Theft_Auto_IV
emmelaich 6y ago
Time to start an en-gb wikipedia! (or is it en-uk? Hmmm)
- robin_reala 6y ago
  It’s en-GB; Northern Ireland gets no say in language specification. (en-UK would be the hypothetical Ukrainian variant of English.)
  - keiferski 6y ago
    Oddly enough the Ukraine metaphor is pretty apt when comparing English to Russian, considering that Eastern Slavic languages came out of Kyiv / Kievan Rus civilization, just as American English originated in England.
  - MichaelMoser123 6y ago
    now that would imply that England would have to conquer (the) Ukraine in the event that Scotland quits. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707 )
    - robin_reala 6y ago
      Wouldn’t be the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War
    - OJFord 6y ago
      I doubt the names would change, personally, but even if they did it would presumably be to 'United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland' (ordering up for hot debate, I'm sure, here I've just replaced GB with consitituents, alphabetised, and removed Scotland ;)) - still a UK. But I don't think that would happen because I don't see why Scotland would want to leave the UK but cling to 'we are still in GB -- no-no, it's geographical guys'. You don't hear the Republic of Ireland self-descring as 'in the British Isles' much, that I'm aware of.
mehrdadn 6y ago
I had no idea this is different in BrE and AmE! What are some other such grammatical differences?
- pilaf 6y ago
  Not a native English speaker, bit I think got (Br) vs. gotten (Am)? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gotten https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gotten
  - loeg 6y ago
    AmE definitely uses both. "I got sick" or "I've gotten sick" are both understandable.
    - ziftface 6y ago
      I think this is in reference to the past perfect tense specifically. So "I have gotten sick" vs "I have got sick". I don't know if the latter is actually used in British English, but it's my understanding that the former would never be used since it's grammatically incorrect in that dialect.
      - mehrdadn 6y ago
        You have got to be kidding me! Neither dialect says you have gotten to be kidding me, right?
        willyt 6y ago
        Its not formal english though. The British informal equivalent would be 'you're having me on!' or 'you're having a laugh!' or (rude) 'you're taking the piss'
  - kentosi 6y ago
    Australian here and we definitely use "gotten": - I've gotten to know him. - I hadn't gotten the concept yet, but then ... etc. I think it's the British that have lost the use of "gotten" in favour of "got".
petjuh 6y ago
OK, I had to search for the edits themselves, they're at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Angels_%26_Airwaves&offset=20060222015316&limit=50&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Angels_%26_Airwav... Here's a sample: 23:37, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - FOR THE LAST TIME, STOP AND DON'T COME BACK! undo 23:35, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - TYKELL, CAN YOU DO ME A FAVOR? DIE! undo 23:34, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - crying PLEASE STOP, PLEASE, I'M BEGGING YOU crying undo 23:33, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - I HAVE A GUN, I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU NOW! shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot undo 23:31, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - YOU REALLY HAVE TO STOP, FOR THE VERY LAST TIME, STOP OR I'LL KILL YOU! undo 23:30, 21 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 12,196 bytes +1‎ Reverted edits by Tykell to last version by Alex 101 - I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO STOP, BUT YOU HAVE TO STOP undo
- MichaelMoser123 6y ago
  i think that might actually be the way how they start real wars in the real world.
- Juliate 6y ago
  It almost reads like lyrics of a comedy song.
  - GrumpyNl 6y ago
    Southpark comes to to mind with the super trolls
- smcl 6y ago
  It looks like it dies down shortly afterwards but the next day someone gets unblocked ... 00:09, 23 February 2006‎ Tykell talk contribs‎ 11,705 bytes -1‎ No, we can't. Don't you know when to quit, kid? undo 23:42, 22 February 2006‎ Alex 101 talk contribs‎ 11,706 bytes +1‎ now that I'm unblocked and this page is unprotected we can change it undo I think if you're all-caps screaming you've lost the argument, and seeing this I'm actually quite embarrassed for the guy. Personally I think "$band is good" or "$team is winning" does sound a bit silly, but I've seen it so many times that I'm kinda used to it. Besides I suspect the same is true for an American hearing "$band are good" or "$team are winning". Either way it definitely doesn't warrant losing your cool like this.
randyrand 6y ago
The Beatles are sounds more correct to me.
- INTPenis 6y ago
  What about Nirvana? Or Metallica? I think in the case of "The Beatles" it's clear cut because it sounds like you're talking about insects. But in other cases I think both sound ok because you could either be talking about a group of people, or a movement or a brand.
  - nfg 6y ago
    All I can say as a speaker of non-US English is that “Metallica is” and “Nirvana is” still sound completely wrong to my ear.
    - vanderZwan 6y ago
      As non-native speaker I think I'd intuitively go with “Metallica is” and “Nirvana is”, but “The Beatles are”. I guess my brain is more wired towards whether the name itself is plural or not.
      - ajuc 6y ago
        Same, but I realized I'm just going with my native language rules on that one.
      - TulliusCicero 6y ago
        Congrats, you're American.
      - roelschroeven 6y ago
        What about "Dire Straits"? Also plural, but grammatically completely different from "The Beatles" (by which I mean: you could say that John Lennon was a Beatle, but you can't refer to Mark Knopfler as a Dire Strait)
galuggus 6y ago
It's quite useful. For example Brazil ARE the best (refers to the Brazilian football team). Whereas Brazil IS the best refers to the country. Chelsea is good could refer to the place or a person. Chelsea are good refers to the team.
- DFHippie 6y ago
  Single sentence utterances like this are rare. In context this distinction doesn't actually provide non-redundant information. So calling this "quite useful" is a bit of a stretch.
  - dan-robertson 6y ago
    It is however generally useful to have lots of redundancy in speech. It can help to sort out mishearings and misspeakings. Similarly in handwritten text.
jccalhoun 6y ago
I've noticed there is also seems to be debate over present vs past tense. I've looked up a few bands to see if they were still active and sometimes it seems like they still use "is" instead of "was" but sometimes they do use "was."
cryptica 6y ago
I actually prefer the American reasoning but 'are' is still OK in both cases because you can substitute "Angels & Airwaves" by 'singular they'. E.g. "Angels & Airwaves is a band. Some would say that they are a great band." or "The editor became frustrated because they could not understand the logic".
6510 6y ago
If they are 2 languages they shouldn't share a wiki. It could be heavily interlinked but duplicating an article into the British English wiki doesn't seem like a problem (all language wikipedias do it) Other language wikipedias also value topics differently. A British English wikipedia would prefer citations from Britain. In many national cases it would merit having more than one article or articles of different opinion.
- poutrathor 6y ago
  silly though ! and which wikipedia would be in English while the other pages are in American English (or in British English). I mean, neither side would accept their language name to be prefixed ; they are already infighting about what's the correct way to speak English.
  - 6510 6y ago
    Simply US vs UK ?

skrap 6y ago

Most of these are about people's (or groups') nationality. Man, tribalism sucks!

noizejoy 6y ago
> tribalism sucks Arguably tribalism is just the consequence of our species being social animals, and therefore at the core of our essence - for better and worse ...
- jccalhoun 6y ago
  [citation needed]
  - noizejoy 6y ago
    lol - were you still in wikipedia editor mode when you wrote that? Or do you really feel that my comment needed a citation here on HN (Hacker News)? And if it’s the latter, I’m genuinely curious what the proper HN etiquette would be. My comment wasn’t attempting to be particularly scholarly or to be included in a referencable work. Quite honestly, I wouldn’t know which reference to pull? Wikipedia? A highly Google ranked Psychology Today magazine article (q= difference+between+tribalism+vs+social+behaviour) ? The entire Google search result link? At least 2 of the above options might have been interpreted as condescending, and the other one an almost random pick, the randomness of it becoming a potential point of critique. So I’m genuinely curious how I might have done better.
    - jccalhoun 6y ago
      It was half joking. On the serious side, I am always skeptical of claims about human nature.
      - noizejoy 6y ago
        and here I thought that using “arguably” in my post would communicate that not everyone might agree. - Oh well ...

reificator 6y ago

I'm quite fond of the Star_trek: INto DaRkneSS edit war that was covered by XCKD awhile back. https://xkcd.com/1167/ https://xkcd.com/1167/

anigbrowl 6y ago

Encyclopaedia Dramatica was an entire (and large) wiki written almost exclusively in this irreverent-to-obnoxious tone, but the entire site is offline because the administrator went to jail for something that isn't even interesting. Well, there's always http://n-gate.com/ http://n-gate.com/

yongjik 6y ago

Glad to see both the Island of Dokdo (a.k.a. Takeshima) and Sea of Japan (a.k.a. the East Sea) are recognized, but it missed my favorite(?) edit war: was An(Ahn) Jung-geun, a Korean nationalist who shot and killed Japanese Prime Minister Ito Hirobumi one year before Japan's annexation of Korea, a terrorist? Should he be included in "Category: Terrorists"? You decide!

james_s_tayler 6y ago
Don't you mean Takeshima a.k.a Dokdo?
- yongjik 6y ago
  HOW DARE YOU
knolax 6y ago
Calling An Jung-Geun a terrorist would be akin to calling George Washington a terrorist. The difference between freedom fighter and terrorist may be murky to some, but generally tact dictates that you don't call someone a terrorist if his faction goes on to establish a recognized sovereign state, especially if the side he was opposing was literally comitting genocide.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I expect it would be a matter of some controversy if George Washington had started the revolution by shooting Lord Dunmore.
- lifthrasiir 6y ago
  The word terrorist can have either a literal meaning (who intentionally uses violence for their goals) or a politically charged meaning (who does that illegitimately, with some---varying---definition of "illegitimately"). The former is very clear, while everyone will have different opinions on the latter (hey, I think the opposing state is still not compensating genocide's victims). I wouldn't mind labelling An Jung-Geun as the former for that reason, just make sure that the label is clearly documented.

6510 6y ago

These are hardly as lame as it gets.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
OrgNet 6y ago
That is Wikipedia (you know what to do)
- 6510 6y ago
  I gave up long ago. There are guidelines for everything but it takes 1000 times the so called established editors time to enforce them. Very few people are willing to take up tasks like that. Those who do might be unable to write articles which makes their review more of an outside look. I don't see a way to progress. Its a kind of public secret that one should avoid working on topics where editors might disagree. I find those to be the more interesting ones.

throwawayjava 6y ago

The "Ethnic and national feuds" section seems like it gets a certain point across: things that seem silly in current context were extraordinarily important cultural touch-points at one point, and could well become so again. E.g., the U2 Irish/UK thing. Easy to laugh at today, but equally easy to understand why to some people at some point in time nationality difference between Irish and UK really mattered. Most flamewars are just real arguments that happen in the wrong time/place/tenor. OFC some examples are clearly just the product of either drugs or a bad week, or more likely both. Kind of like reading slashdot articles about "websites", hacker news articles about "capitalism", or newspaper article comment sections about "immigrants" in the late 20th/early 21st century. Or whatever. You get the point ;)

MatekCopatek 6y ago
Meh, dunno - a lot of people having strong opinions and emotions doesn't really mean the fact they're discussing is important. Let's say my parents are from A, I was born in B and live in C. There was an important and well known historical conflict between A, B and C fueled by nationalism at some point. I am an established artist/scientist and I don't care about my own nationality. Is it important that people flame about it on my wiki article?

ericzawo 6y ago

This. This is what the internet is all about.

incompatible 6y ago

Not an edit war, but I was amazed at the time about the discussion over the name of the Río de la Plata article, which just went on and on and on. I didn't contribute. The article at the time was just a tiny stub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata/name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:R%C3%ADo_de_la_Plata/name

yummypaint 6y ago

The section on images is great. Should there be a picture of a big spider on the arachnophobia page? Which anus is most representative of humanity? The (ro)bot wars section may be of particular interest to HN

stonecharioteer 6y ago
I would like the photos on a phobia page to be blurred or to have a button that hides by default. I have thalassophobia and gigantophobia. It's a weird cross section of giant statues and depths. So I have a huge fear of bigass statues partially or fully submerged. So needless to day, most of the posts on /r/thalassophobia make me so scared. What if I want to reach out to that subreddit for help and support in overcoming my fear? It's extremely scary.
- dmos62 6y ago
  That's fascinating. I wish we could ask your subconscious "what's the story behind that?".
- swiley 6y ago
  If I where you I would open the page in elinks but I know not everyone uses that regularly and might not be familiar with it.
- juped 6y ago
  Trauma from one of the many movies featuring the Statue of Liberty underwater?
- andai 6y ago
  The r/__phobia subs are equivalent to r/__porn tbh
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

chkaloon 6y ago

I just came here because "The Intervention of the Sabine Women" is one of my favorite paintings.

ggm 6y ago
My mum,an art historian took us to the Louvre as kids and this picture is "nice firemen rescuing women". the gericault "raft of medusa" will always be "the Tintin picture" As well (same trip).
- chkaloon 6y ago
  I saw it at the Louvre as well. I saw it as a group of women taking charge because the men were being a-holes.

downshun 6y ago

Wasting time about wasting time. So meta.

TrackerFF 6y ago

I'm surprised that there's no entry for "Is Finland part of Scandinavia?". Always leads to heated debates with lots of technicalities.

Tistron 6y ago
That's funny. I immediately noticed in me "what?! It clearly isn't!". Not sure why I have a strong opinion on that, but I find it enlightening in this context.
boomlinde 6y ago
As a Swede, I've honestly never heard this being debated.
- freeflight 6y ago
  As a not-Swede, I know it as a friendly joke by Scandinavia and the World [0] [0] https://satwcomic.com/no-invitation https://satwcomic.com/no-invitation
goto11 6y ago
Wat? It obviously isn't. Scandinavia is characterized by mutually intelligible languages (at least in theory), and Finnish is clearly unintelligible. It is part of the Nordic countries though.

jedberg 6y ago

The saddest part about this page are the warnings and the fact that they felt these needed to exist: “This section is intended as humor. It is not, has never been, nor will ever be, a Wikipedia policy or guideline. Rather, it illustrates standards or conduct that are generally not accepted by the Wikipedia community.”

notRobot 6y ago
It's not sad. Wikipedia is supposed to be a serious source of information, and is used by people from all over the world, many of whom may not "get" this kind of humour. The warnings make sense.
yongjik 6y ago
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another meta-edit-war where someone exclaimed "Guys, stop, you are featured in _Lamest Edit Wars_ page!" and a lengthy discussion ensued whether being featured in the page implies the edit dispute was in "bad faith" (or whatever wiki-ism they use these days), and the disclaimer was a result of that.
RobertoG 6y ago
I think it's an interesting page. It shows human nature. That the edit wars themselves (lame or not) can be query should be interesting for the students of the human mind and, maybe, even for future historians because it shows what was important in our time.

paganel 6y ago

Re: Ányos Istvan Jedlik, I've had a uni colleague and former friend of mine who shared a given name with this inventor and whose family name was 95% similar to his, and seeing as we both live and used to study in Romania (where even the ethnic Hungarians' family names don't generally sound like this) I was curious at first what nationality he was, he told me that he's not sure either, part-Hungarian, part-Slovak. Maybe a similar approach could have been used in this inventor's case (i.e. using the "part-" thing)

MatekCopatek 6y ago
Kudos for trying to find a sensible solution, but most of these disputes aren't about determining which geographical area a person and/or their ancestors stem from - that would be relatively simple to resolve with sources which are typically available. Modern nationality is a highly complex topic related to not only geography, but also politics, language, religion etc. Often a dispute is not about providing information on a historical figure, but about "claiming" important people for your nation so that your collective "historical importance" is increased.

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6nf 6y ago

The lower the stakes the fiercer the competition

blaser-waffle 6y ago
What's that Kissinger quote? Something like "the reason fights in academia are so intense is because the stakes are so small."

Kyro38 6y ago

Endive ou Chicon ? https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Guerres_d%27%C3%A9dition_les_plus_futiles https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Guerres_d%27%C3...

reyqn 6y ago
Is chicon the new chocolatine?

m463 6y ago

This is a very long, debate-fueled, page. It reminds me of the page on Toilet Paper[1]. It is 35,330 bytes Meanwhile the page on Toilet Paper Orientation[2], of which there are two choices: - OVER - UNDER goes on and on, and manages to weigh in almost 50% larger than toilet paper at 49,667 bytes. Amusingly, "vertical" is actually mentioned, but how a hero got that in, I don't know. Probably killed or captured. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation

YetAnotherNick 6y ago
Is it just me or someone else also read all the 49,667 bytes of Toilet paper orientation.
- glaberficken 6y ago
  guilty
- binarymax 6y ago
  Which conclusions have you drawn and have you changed to (or solidified) the correct OVER orientation now?
  - 6510 6y ago
    I have an interesting fact not mentioned in the article. Vandals may put the end of the paper in the toilet before flushing. In the over orientation the paper hangs closer to the toilet and is less likely to break.
    - binarymax 6y ago
      How many vandals are in your home? :)
glaberficken 6y ago
>Amusingly, "vertical" is actually mentioned, but how a hero got that in, I don't know. Probably killed or captured. But then the discussion becomes between "left" or "right"...definitely don't want to go there!

milot 6y ago

The upload war for the territory of Kosovo is not a lame one, it is still a highly heated dialogue amongst politicians of both countries. While this topic had consequences during the 1999 war between Kosovo and Serbia, is still present today for which US is actively involved in this dialogue for that particular map this wouldn't classify as lame.

MatekCopatek 6y ago
An edit war being lame doesn't mean the article topic is lame. The lameness comes from both sides taking their own opinion and using the article to present it as the one and only truth. An atheist and a christian could have an edit war on the article of Jesus, changing it between "Son of God and our Saviour" and "fairy tale character used to control masses", which would be absolutely lame despite the objective importance of the religious figure in question. And while sensible people can at least resolve religious issues by accepting that they simply have opposing beliefs and no ability to disprove the other side, politics are even more complex in the sense that they include a lot of historical facts, not just ideological beliefs. This makes it more likely for people to feel like their truth is objective.
- milot 6y ago
  Understood, but again this is not an easy topic such as the example you gave between an Atheist and a Christian. This is something tangible which is still present and not something fictional or a belief.
  - MatekCopatek 6y ago
    This is what I was referring to in my last paragraph. We didn't discover concepts like country and nation, we invented them. They're very real and have a profound effect on our lives, but at the same time they are completely fictional. If everyone ceases to believe in them, they disappear.
dmos62 6y ago
Are these descriptions mutually exclusive? Is a territory dispute inherently above heritage dispute (in terms of vanity)? When something escalates to violence, does it become less vain (supposing vanity is what causes "lameness")? I would not say that people feeling strongly about something (and willing to act boldly because of it) somehow validates them or their conflict. That's what lameness means: is something socially accepted or condemned.

aaron695 6y ago

Go meta meta, you know you want to - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Lamest_edit_wars&offset=&limit=500&action=history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:La...

interblag 6y ago

This opinion could easily spark one of these wars, but I really wish a global community like Wikipedia wouldn't use ablest language in a title of a post like this... (caveating that I realize the concept of caring about ablest language is relatively new for most people, and that this type of language is deeply ingrained in our cultural subconscious, but it still doesn't cost much to try to avoid it where we can...)

HoppyHaus 6y ago
"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."
- rxhernandez 6y ago
  It's worth considering that those words shouldn't have existed in the first place. How would you handle "lame" being substituted with something overtly racist?
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    How about you have a peanut and go do this stuff somewhere it's more appreciated.
    - rxhernandez 6y ago
      "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." It looks like I'm in a place where it is appreciated. It's worth considering that your reply wouldn't fit in with this community's guidelines.
      - Gibbon1 6y ago
        Seriously you're being toxic.
Angostura 6y ago

mertnesvat 6y ago

After reading some of them, it became obvious nationality and the race always creates a funny conflict :) In good dishes like hummus or people who accomplished something, all nationalities want to be part of their success.

geoffbp 6y ago

Oh geez, some people have a lot more spare time than me

LyndsySimon 6y ago
... or some people have radically different priorities :)

McTossOut 6y ago

There's a certain vibe in this article, it's like Steve Irwin, or Bill Nye giving exposition, Wikipedia is sorely missing this.

cs02rm0 6y ago

Has anyone ever made an edit on Wikipedia without someone trying to start an edit war? I think it's actually worse than StackOverflow.

kieckerjan 6y ago
I dread making changes to wikipedia for this reason. You invest time and energy to research something and write it up and then some semi anonymous bastard comes along and deletes it. Frustrating and a waste of effort. At least that was what I used to think until recently. I spotted such a glaring omission on the Dutch wikipedia that I felt morally compelled to remedy it myself. I did the edit and sure enough within five minutes I was alerted that someone else had edited my edit. Turns out he had just fixed a typo, sent me a thank you and added a new section of his own on something unrelated. For what it is worth, it was an uplifting little experience.
- andai 6y ago
  That's nice to hear. What did you add?
  - kieckerjan 6y ago
    To the item on woodpeckers: why the little buggers don't get headaches. The explanation is actually quite interesting, look it up!
- Jay2wu2u 6y ago
  I used to contribute a lot to wikipedia in its early days in the 2000' and faced the same frustrating experience. I think this just happens to everybody, from what I heard from other editors. I would expect it to be even worse now that wp is well established and editors do not have to make a common front against academics' denigration. Still, wp is in my view easily the biggest achievement of the web, and I still care for it. I would often fix small issues, like you mention, this does not trigger any hostile response. Something else I found to work quite well to contribute without risking annoying conflicts : to translate articles from en.wp to other languages if their pages don't exist yet on the localized one. And of course, there always need help to revert vandalisms. Also, I would recommend against having an account. Being IP based editor makes you more subject to scrutiny, but this prevents people deciding they don't like you based on your history. That's an advice I would give for any public discussion on the web, though (by always using fresh accounts).

Jay2wu2u 6y ago

A funny effect of this page : it seems to me that the discussion around it on HN is way less bitterly contradictory than usual. Well, that's my impression at least, I haven't measured it.

gerdesj 6y ago

Well there's a thing: There are two types of vampire hunter here in the UKoGB&NI! "two opposing factions of British vampire hunters (the "orthodox" Vampire Research Society and the "revisionist" Highgate Vampire Society, "

HeadsUpHigh 6y ago
Die heretic!

umaar 6y ago

I repurposed a WebGL globe to visualise anonymous Wikipedia edits made around the world: https://umaar.com/globe/ https://umaar.com/globe/ This is the original, which visualised tweets: https://github.com/cedricpinson/globetweeter https://github.com/cedricpinson/globetweeter

danparsonson 6y ago
Very nice! Just a small note of correction - you seem to be showing Korea as 'JPN'
asaibx 6y ago
Beautiful! Reminds me a bit of Hatnote's Listen to Wikipedia [0]. [0]: http://listen.hatnote.com/ http://listen.hatnote.com/

omega3 6y ago

It makes me wonder why are editorial pieces like this one hosted on official wikipedia page. Branding a discussion as a lame diminishes the importance of the discussion. Taking as an example Chopin, the whole importance of of him being considered a Pole is reduced (you can even see it in the comments in this thread) to accusations of nationalism and tribalism. I'm worried that next time someone tries to take a more nuanced, more informed approach to editing they will stop themselves in the fear of being included in a piece like this.

huskyr 6y ago
Note that this article is not hosted in the official 'article' namespace, but in the 'Wikipedia' namespace (hence the Wikipedia: in the article title), which is specifically reserved for non-encyclopaedic content, including editorial pieces and opinions.
- omega3 6y ago
  It's hosted on wikipedia.org, follows the stylesheet for Wikipedia articles and below it states: "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    The point made is that it is on a kind of "meta" article. In book terms, imagine it being in some kind of "Extras" volume of the Encyclopaedia Wikipedia, not under "L" for "Lame Edit Wars".
  - chris_wot 6y ago
    No, it’s not in the main article namespace. Meta discussions happen here. Anything with Wikipedia: in front of them are not articles. Some places are horrific. The admin’s noticeboard (incidents) is horrible. Sadly it was an initiative I started over a decade ago.
bityard 6y ago
What makes these arguments lame is that they are _extremely unimportant_ in the grand scheme of things. People take up sides on trivial topics as a hobby or escape. This article is an excellent summation of how silly and petty people get when arguing over minutia online. > I'm worried that next time someone tries to take a more nuanced, more informed approach to editing they will stop themselves in the fear of being included in a piece like this. Good! That's exactly why this article exists. Because for every person who _doesn't_ come across this article and draws a conclusion based on a nuanced, informed approach, another person will disagree with them because they drew the _exact opposite_ conclusion based on their own nuanced, informed approach. And then the debate will devolve into an entry on Lamest Edit Wars.

schmudde 6y ago

Wow. This is the perfectly self-referential Wikipedia entry that post-post-modernist plebs want and deserve.

einpoklum 6y ago

Not all these wars are lame: > Various supporters of the US Libertarian party (founded in > 1971) argue that they own the meaning of the word > 'libertarian', that placing it next to 'socialism' is a > contradiction in terms, and hence that libertarian socialism > (described circa 1850) cannot possibly have existed. An edit > war and request-for-deletion war ensues. The question of the meaning of "liberty" and the compatibility of liberty with socialized means of production (and the meaning of "socializing") is quite a deep subject. So, not lame.

drngdds 6y ago
It's still quite lame to try and get the article deleted based on that. Libertarian socialism is an ideology which exists and is noteworthy enough to get an encyclopedia article, whether or not the name is self-contradictory.
- einpoklum 6y ago
  I don't think the deletion is appropriate, but what appears to some people as petty or lame may be ideologically significant to others.

mrcartmenez 6y ago

Oh god that was lame

yitchelle 6y ago

How some of these edits are not attributed to trolling, I don't know.

cyborgx7 6y ago

While most of these are very silly and fun, I have to admit that I do care about some of them. For example about the legitimacy of the "Nobel Prize in Economics" as a real Nobel Prize. In the end, the way history gets written is important for the propaganda of the future. And Wikipedia is the primary authority on truth in the current world. Wether we like it or not.

wffurr 6y ago
You know what you have to do. Come back with your shield or on it.
Tomte 6y ago
That ship has sailed. The Nobel Foundation lists the economics prize alongside the other ones. If it's your word against theirs, you lose. No matter how "technically right" you are. No matter what Wikipedia writes.
- cyborgx7 6y ago
  Actually, I have found that if you point this out to people, for a lot of them it will (rightfully) diminish their trust in the institution of the Nobel Foundation, rather than increase their trust in the Economic Prize.
s_dev 6y ago
>In the end, the way history gets written is important for the propaganda of the future. I honestly initially didn't care about the British Isles thing til I saw British people start to presume Irish people were naturally British and then use that exact terminology to justify why UK sovereignty should be extended over the entire island. Just imagine if Britain was referred to as an "Irish Isle" and you'll start to see the problem in how people start to view the neighbours not as equals but as one belonging to the other.

iron0013 6y ago

Wow, there are an awful lot of articles plagued by eastern European nationalists trying to re-write history and reality!

gwbas1c 6y ago

This is dangerous: > Be careful to avoid even the semblance of taking sides in the war. If one version was more or less accepted afterwards, it's OK to note that, but the fact that an edit war occurred means that neither side was "in the right all along". What about when one party is actively spreading misinformation? A statement that no one is never right in an edit war just gives misinformation credibility. (Examples could be that smoking is safe, climate change is a hoax, ect.)

chris_wot 6y ago
Then it’s not lame. It’s quite serious.

namenotrequired 6y ago

I loved this detail under the discussion of Franz Liszt: > This Liszt is incomplete; you can help Wikipedia by trying not to expand it further.

Tomte 6y ago
Some list of serial killers or so (I cannot find it) also contained a plea not to expand it.
- 37 6y ago
  Yes, it was [0] the list of serial killers by number of victims, but since has changed [1] to say "You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries." [0] https://i.imgur.com/hqiVtK6.png https://i.imgur.com/hqiVtK6.png [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_number_of_victims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_numb...

kyle-rb 6y ago

I enjoyed the C# section on whether it's a real sharp sign or a plain octothorpe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#C# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars#C# > The issue was resolved with an e-mail exchange with Microsoft stating that in their view it's an octothorpe symbol representing the sharp symbol, similar to how "<=" represents the less than or equal symbol, and that thus Microsoft does not disagree with ECMA. Written "Netscape" but pronounced "Mozilla", eh?

WCityMike 6y ago

"Wikipedia is a MMORPG for bureaucrats." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_an_MMORPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_an_MMOR...