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You guys mind backing up your facts? > The simple answer comes down to the fact that a species has to find a balance between maintaining genetic diversity, whi

You guys mind backing up your facts? > The simple answer comes down to the fact that a species has to find a balance between maintaining genetic diversity, which is important for resilience and adaptation, and maintaining a strong breeding population. > the basic fact that males have more diverse expression Not to be a jerk, but you guys are just throwing out this stuff without backing it up and it's not at all self-evident to me. How are males more diverse? Kind of feels like a big reason why this stuff is touchy is cause we're just saying things without having evidence for it, so yeah, there's not a lot of common ground to discuss.

hi5eyes 6y ago
men and women take on equally risky roles to attain wealth, status and attract partners
microcolonel 6y ago
> Not to be a jerk, but you guys are just throwing out this stuff without backing it up and it's not at all self-evident to me. Well as for "you guys", I don't know this guy, I'm just adding my two cents to this dollar. As for it being self-evident: of course it's not self-evident, that's why it's a matter for scientific research. Your answers will be found searching for literature, not impugning the motives of random strangers on Hacker News.
- virgilp 6y ago
  Would you care to give pointers to a stranger who would be interested in reading said scientific research?
- aaron-lebo 6y ago
  It really wasn't a knock at your motives and it wasn't personal. I just feel like if you are going to make statements and even go so far as to label them as fact, it is your job to back it up.
LifeLiverTransp 6y ago
If i remember, the distribution in men is greater. (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-scottish-iq-test-scores-by-gender-reveal-the-greater-variability-of-male-intelligence/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-scottish-iq-...) Also the expression of neuro-diversity is usually more severe (do not have a linke for that one). While we are at it, can we talk about the loop deformation, too? Aka, evolution as a blind machinery, adapting humanity to the cycle of strife, by allowing neuro-diverse speacilizations to exist, which in turn try to propagate the circumstances they thrive in. Thanks to science, we had a nice 90 years of surplus and plenty, basically bribing ourselves out of natures grasp. Now the whole messy affair returns with a vengance, and it will be interesting to see, if leviathan-cybernetics ( aka societal implants (cellphones, self-surveilance etc.)) can reign the forces of the old world in, were wishfull thinking and society regulation mechanisms (religions, rules, etc.)fail.
- jmeister 6y ago
  What is “loop deformation”? Are you referring to a parent comment that has been deleted/flagged? Curious to know..
nootropicat 6y ago
The Y chromosome only codes for 55 genes, while the X chromosome codes for 900 genes [1]. The Y chromosome self-evidently doesn't contain genes necessary for basic survival, because females don't have it. Males have only one X chromosome. Each cell in a human female has one X chromosome fully active and another one partially active [2], which means their phenotype, as far at it depends on the X chromosome, has lower variance because of partial averaging. [1] https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Y-Chromosome-facts https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Y-Chromoso... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696107/
- microcolonel 6y ago
  Colour vision being the classic example of something preserved or enhanced in females due to coding on the X chromosome. This helps women, for the most part, completely avoid red-green colourblindness. Coincidentally when searching to make sure I wasn't saying this the wrong way around, I was presented with this weird sexist propaganda[0] that only works because of the weird way people tend to think about these facts: you only acknowledge it if you can make it sound like women are better at everything and make no tradeoffs. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/19/the-better-half-on-the-genetic-superiority-of-women-review-bold-study-of-chromosomal-advantage https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/19/the-better-hal...
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    Greater male variance in humans has nothing to do with the article, or general discussion about the evolutionary benefits of sexual reproduction, because what's true of some categories of animal, like mammals, is not true of birds and other animals (whose sex chromosomes work differently -- female birds have greater variance, last I checked).
    - microcolonel 6y ago
      > Greater male variance in humans has nothing to do with ... the the evolutionary benefits of sexual reproduction https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04184 https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04184
raducu 6y ago
Isn't it a common known fact that while average IQ is the same for males and females, male IQ varies more and hence there are more male idiots as well as more male geniuses? I'm sure you can google the IQ variance stuff. I'm also willing to bet the height distribution, libido, interest in hobbies, single-mindedness vary a lot more in males than in females. Politically correctness aside, wouldn't it make perfect sense that the sex that produces more gametes in a day than whole countries of opposite sex in their entire lifetimes would be the sex with more variance in any kind of feature because the potential rewards for taking a genetic risk could also pay a lot more than for the other sex?
- ben_w 6y ago
  > Isn't it a common known fact that while average IQ is the same for males and females, male IQ varies more and hence there are more male idiots as well as more male geniuses? I had heard this as a kid, but I haven’t seen anything to back it up recently that didn’t turn out to be wishful thinking by the author/reposter. > wouldn't it make perfect sense that the sex that produces more gametes in a day than whole countries of opposite sex in their entire lifetimes would be the sex with more variance in any kind of feature because the potential rewards for taking a genetic risk could also pay a lot more than for the other sex? I don’t see why the number of gametes is relevant, as the average number of viable offspring is necessarily the same.
  - swebs 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_...
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      > In general, most researchers have failed to find greater variability in either sex in any area that is consistent across cultures and not confounded by social factors.
      - 6y ago
bregma 6y ago
> How are males more diverse? Most of the pictures of human females I see on the internet look the same. Young, nubile, thin, light-skinned, teased hair, painted like a clown, and where visible, completely devoid of body hair. Perhaps observation bias is at play? If you go to actual scientific literature, it's surprising how much everybody knows to be true is complete and utter billshut.
rtisdale 6y ago
Currently on mobile so won't be able to post much. To focus on one particular subset of this, recent research seems to indicate pretty conclusively that there is greater variability of (certain aspects of) intelligence among men than among women. The reasons for this are poorly understood. Is it genetic differences? Are boys and girls encouraged to investigate different things? Is it a limitation of our testing methods? We aren't entirely sure yet so it's hard for people on either side to claim any complete understanding or provide a definitive answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis While it's difficult, I feel all sides should be willing to research and discuss these differences without resulting to pearl clutching.
- aaron-lebo 6y ago
  Yeah, we should be able to discuss topics like this without pearl clutching and the only way to really do that is with actual facts supported by evidence. I appreciate you providing that information, really.
  - 52-6F-62 6y ago
    I don't think it was the subject matter that was the cause for dispute, but the initial approach.

hi5eyes 6y ago

men and women take on equally risky roles to attain wealth, status and attract partners

microcolonel 6y ago

> Not to be a jerk, but you guys are just throwing out this stuff without backing it up and it's not at all self-evident to me. Well as for "you guys", I don't know this guy, I'm just adding my two cents to this dollar. As for it being self-evident: of course it's not self-evident, that's why it's a matter for scientific research. Your answers will be found searching for literature, not impugning the motives of random strangers on Hacker News.

virgilp 6y ago
Would you care to give pointers to a stranger who would be interested in reading said scientific research?
aaron-lebo 6y ago
It really wasn't a knock at your motives and it wasn't personal. I just feel like if you are going to make statements and even go so far as to label them as fact, it is your job to back it up.

LifeLiverTransp 6y ago

If i remember, the distribution in men is greater. (https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-scottish-iq-test-scores-by-gender-reveal-the-greater-variability-of-male-intelligence/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-scottish-iq-...) Also the expression of neuro-diversity is usually more severe (do not have a linke for that one). While we are at it, can we talk about the loop deformation, too? Aka, evolution as a blind machinery, adapting humanity to the cycle of strife, by allowing neuro-diverse speacilizations to exist, which in turn try to propagate the circumstances they thrive in. Thanks to science, we had a nice 90 years of surplus and plenty, basically bribing ourselves out of natures grasp. Now the whole messy affair returns with a vengance, and it will be interesting to see, if leviathan-cybernetics ( aka societal implants (cellphones, self-surveilance etc.)) can reign the forces of the old world in, were wishfull thinking and society regulation mechanisms (religions, rules, etc.)fail.

jmeister 6y ago
What is “loop deformation”? Are you referring to a parent comment that has been deleted/flagged? Curious to know..

nootropicat 6y ago

The Y chromosome only codes for 55 genes, while the X chromosome codes for 900 genes [1]. The Y chromosome self-evidently doesn't contain genes necessary for basic survival, because females don't have it. Males have only one X chromosome. Each cell in a human female has one X chromosome fully active and another one partially active [2], which means their phenotype, as far at it depends on the X chromosome, has lower variance because of partial averaging. [1] https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Y-Chromosome-facts https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Y-Chromoso... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4696107/

microcolonel 6y ago
Colour vision being the classic example of something preserved or enhanced in females due to coding on the X chromosome. This helps women, for the most part, completely avoid red-green colourblindness. Coincidentally when searching to make sure I wasn't saying this the wrong way around, I was presented with this weird sexist propaganda[0] that only works because of the weird way people tend to think about these facts: you only acknowledge it if you can make it sound like women are better at everything and make no tradeoffs. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/19/the-better-half-on-the-genetic-superiority-of-women-review-bold-study-of-chromosomal-advantage https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/19/the-better-hal...
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  Greater male variance in humans has nothing to do with the article, or general discussion about the evolutionary benefits of sexual reproduction, because what's true of some categories of animal, like mammals, is not true of birds and other animals (whose sex chromosomes work differently -- female birds have greater variance, last I checked).
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    > Greater male variance in humans has nothing to do with ... the the evolutionary benefits of sexual reproduction https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04184 https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04184

raducu 6y ago

Isn't it a common known fact that while average IQ is the same for males and females, male IQ varies more and hence there are more male idiots as well as more male geniuses? I'm sure you can google the IQ variance stuff. I'm also willing to bet the height distribution, libido, interest in hobbies, single-mindedness vary a lot more in males than in females. Politically correctness aside, wouldn't it make perfect sense that the sex that produces more gametes in a day than whole countries of opposite sex in their entire lifetimes would be the sex with more variance in any kind of feature because the potential rewards for taking a genetic risk could also pay a lot more than for the other sex?

ben_w 6y ago
> Isn't it a common known fact that while average IQ is the same for males and females, male IQ varies more and hence there are more male idiots as well as more male geniuses? I had heard this as a kid, but I haven’t seen anything to back it up recently that didn’t turn out to be wishful thinking by the author/reposter. > wouldn't it make perfect sense that the sex that produces more gametes in a day than whole countries of opposite sex in their entire lifetimes would be the sex with more variance in any kind of feature because the potential rewards for taking a genetic risk could also pay a lot more than for the other sex? I don’t see why the number of gametes is relevant, as the average number of viable offspring is necessarily the same.
- swebs 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis#Modern_...
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    > In general, most researchers have failed to find greater variability in either sex in any area that is consistent across cultures and not confounded by social factors.
    - 6y ago

bregma 6y ago

> How are males more diverse? Most of the pictures of human females I see on the internet look the same. Young, nubile, thin, light-skinned, teased hair, painted like a clown, and where visible, completely devoid of body hair. Perhaps observation bias is at play? If you go to actual scientific literature, it's surprising how much everybody knows to be true is complete and utter billshut.

rtisdale 6y ago

Currently on mobile so won't be able to post much. To focus on one particular subset of this, recent research seems to indicate pretty conclusively that there is greater variability of (certain aspects of) intelligence among men than among women. The reasons for this are poorly understood. Is it genetic differences? Are boys and girls encouraged to investigate different things? Is it a limitation of our testing methods? We aren't entirely sure yet so it's hard for people on either side to claim any complete understanding or provide a definitive answer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis While it's difficult, I feel all sides should be willing to research and discuss these differences without resulting to pearl clutching.

aaron-lebo 6y ago
Yeah, we should be able to discuss topics like this without pearl clutching and the only way to really do that is with actual facts supported by evidence. I appreciate you providing that information, really.
- 52-6F-62 6y ago
  I don't think it was the subject matter that was the cause for dispute, but the initial approach.