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You're a Slave to Money, Then You Die
- billfruit 7y agoHow is then of the possible recent and ongoing attempts to reform the capitalist system like the gig economy, use of automation to make manual labour obsolete, rise of a democratized social media, disruptive innovation etc seem to have more stronger opposition from the left rather than the right, esp in the USA. Many on the left seem to deeply in favour of preserving the status quo, and seems to not have the means or methods or vision of changing the very broken systems into something better.
- throwanem 7y agoA leftist would say that's because neoliberalism, despite having the word "liberal" in its name, is at best a center-right ideology, and would be very surprised at your assertion that leftists want to preserve the broken status quo.
- billfruit 7y agoYes but left seems more critical of change/possibility of change than the right.
- throwanem 7y agoI don't understand in what context this can seem accurate, unless it's one of confusing liberalism and leftism. The US presidential candidate favored by the left, in the current and prior election cycles, is a democratic socialist whose candidacy and appeal are both founded on the promise of restricting the power of, and ameliorating the consequences of, the same laissez-faire (ie unregulated) capitalism so beloved of neoliberals. The left and the right, as a major distinction between either and status-quo-favoring centrists including neoliberals, have in common the idea that radical change is necessary; the idea has been expressed in terms I roughly paraphrase as "capitalism has failed, and in the face of that, we'll have either socialism or fascism", a statement with which leftists in my circle would not disagree. The difference between left and right lies not in seeing a need for change, but partly in means and entirely in desiderata.
- billfruit 7y agoWho is the more vocal critic of the disruptive changes that has happened in our lifetime like the rise of social networks, and gig economy, disruptive innovation, etc. It appears to me the American left is more vocal than the right in criticising/opposing changes.
- throwanem 7y agoI can't speak for how it appears to you, but to claim that the right has been uncritical or even less critical than the left, of recent changes in US and global society, is frankly absurd.
- juskrey 7y agoI love how professors live on charity and lecture us on money.
- vxxzy 7y agoYou must buy their books though.
- Aeolun 7y agoEveryone is a slave to money.
- TheOtherHobbes 7y agoProfessors don't "live on charity" any more than anyone else with a job does. If you disagree, stop paying them and see how that works out for you.
- wegs 7y agoThe majority of their income comes from government subsidies and from charitable donations. At some universities, over time, that's built up into endowments which support professors. That's very much the definition of "live on charity."
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- chongli 7y agoCharitable donations from wealthy people who, for some reason or another, feel indebted to their alma mater. How successful would these people be without the education they received from their professors? Educators produce enormous externalities that their students capture and build their lives around. To turn around and say they "live on charity and lecture us on money" is the height of ingratitude.
- atomi 7y agoIt's the height of something alright. Great comment.
- buf 7y agoIf you want wealth, stop renting out your time. Lean towards equity. You need to be able to make money even while sleeping.
- jacobush 7y agoWould that make you the slave owner?
- ThomPete 7y agoIf machines are slaves then yes.
- phaemon 7y agoThat would make sense if everything was produced entirely by machines, but it doesn't make any sense in the current real world.
- ThomPete 7y agoNeither does it make sense to call people who work for you to provide for their families slaves.
- phaemon 7y agoThen perhaps you should have made that comment rather than a nonsensical one about machines?
- ThomPete 7y agoWhy? If you are making money when you sleep the chances that you are using machines to make money is quite large. I am doing that and I don't have any slaves working for me. If you can't see the slave analogy being what is nonsensical here then nothing I can say or do is going to convince you. So I guess by your definition you are either a slave or a slave owner. Oh well.
- peignoir 7y agoIt’s ad reductio it’s like saying soccer is pushing a ball. You could also say life is waking up eating sleeping and then death. It’s true but it’s definitely an emotional argument. I preferred the lectures on free will by Conway, it does not answer anything but it allows for a nice réflexion
- rutierut 7y agoTrue but for a lot of people that's pretty much it. It would not be absurd to say: "For my 4 year old soccer is just pushing a ball".
- softwarejosh 7y agoexcept I remember being 4 and I pretty much never touched that thing slippery bastard
- raverbashing 7y agoAgreed. We might as well say, you're a slave to oxygen and water, then you die.
- thefounder 7y agoNot really. It's not like you are workibg all your life to "earn" oxygen and water. Fortunately(for most of us) we are living in an utopia as far as oxygen and water is concerned. You get them for "free"/with minimal effort.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoFirst time I’ve read that providing clean water on demand to everyone at a sufficient pressure is “minimal effort”. To me, the infrastructure and experimentation and science that leads to all homes having reliable, potable water is miraculous. There’s very large swaths of the planet where you are supposed to drink only bottled water, from a bottle unsealed in front of you.
- noir_lord 7y agoOther than the author having the ability to use large words I'm not sure what I was supposed to have come away with from this piece at all, it's just word salad.
- tr33house 7y agohey! I love some salads :)
- simond_d 7y ago100% this
- netsharc 7y agoI was interested until about half way, and then the author lost/bored me. Ah, the problems writing for the ADHD generation...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dhsysusbsjsi 7y agoOh my god I'm glad it's not just me. I gave up at: "...the distribution of wealth and popular acquiescence in the vicissitudes of the market—the hoi polloi might vote themselves welfare states or even socialism." Word salad is understatement of the day.
- Proven 7y agoI like Mr. Beale in that movie. But this rant completely misses the fact that only in socialism (or earlier, slavery) can Mr. Beale be "forced" to do something. Mr. Beale could have chosen to quit his job and become a fisherman or something.
- peterlk 7y agoIf you have not read _The hard thing about hard things_, you should. One of my favorites is this exchange when the company hits hard times: Bill Campbell: "It's not about the money." Ben Horowitz: "What's it about, Bill?" Bill: "It's about the FUCKING money.
- blast 7y agoI have not read the book and am missing the point. Can I get a literal explanation?
- harambaebae69 7y agoIs this the same general concept as in Spaceballs (1987)? Lone Starr : Listen! We're not just doing this for money! Barf : [Barf looks at him, raises his ears] Lone Starr : We're doing it for a SHIT LOAD of money!
- UncleSlacky 7y agoMoney, particularly fiat currency, is a useful fiction. You're not a slave of money as such, it's a tool of enslavement by those who control how much money is allowed to exist and how much is allowed to circulate. As Iain M. Banks put it, "Money is a sign of poverty".
- enkid 7y agoThe act of enslavement is in fact a two way street. You have to choose to want whatever you can buy with money in order to be enslaved. It's a choice most people just don't know they are making. For many, it's also a choice that makes sense if they want to survive. Money lets you buy food, clothes, and shelter. Making a choice to be enslaved for those is clear(but still a choice). Making a choice to be enslaved beyond that is not as clear.
- LordDragonfang 7y ago"The act of enslavement is in fact a two way street. Enslaved Africans had to choose to not want to be whipped and beaten by their slavemaster for attempting to run away" When the alternative is not something a reasonable person would choose, it's common courtesy to not pretend it's an actual choice.
- UncleSlacky 7y agoEat or starve isn't much of a choice, though.
- eru 7y agoFiat currency isn't even necessary. Fiduciary money is sufficient. Eg a classic gold standard, fractional reserve banking and private note issue. Like they had in Canada or Scotland.
- HugoDaniel 7y agoI was wondering how long it would take till someone started alluring cryptocurrencies. Nice one.
- thelazydogsback 7y ago
- josefresco 7y ago"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
- rtkaratekid 7y agoIs there an attribution for this quote? I’m interested
- softwaredoug 7y agoBefore enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, get smallpox, let doctor do bloodletting, watch everyone around you die After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water, get smallpox vaccine, live to play with your kids and watch them grow up...
- asdff 7y agoOnly if you are born into a country or find yourself with an occupation that grants you access to the smallpox vaccine for little cost.
- curiousfiddler 7y agoThis resonates with my recent attempts to find meaning and purpose in things I do. As you point out, it's almost the same things I do, but some seemingly small things seem more meaningful...
- tarsinge 7y agoActually contrary to popular belief medieval peasants had plenty of free time, and holiday occasions: https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/american-worker-less-vacation-medieval-peasant-2016-11?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/american-worker-less-vacat...
- deathhand 7y agoGovernment was always supposed to be influenced 'by the people' those people are usually aristocrats. That is fine if there are enough of them with different ideas. What has happened is the consolidation of the artiscroacy and thus the means of influence of government. This is where we are getting our ugly problems from. What is the first step to fixing this? Bring voting into the 21ST century AND NOT HAVE VOTING SOFTWARE BE CONSIDERED A TRADE SECRET[1]. Voting shouldn't be as onerous today and things like the Sun Light foundation[2] should be a household name. We have all met jerks in our lives. People who lie,deciet, and cheat to get ahead. How is having the government covered in obscurity good for anyone? 1 - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190706/17082642527/voting-machine-makers-claim-names-entities-that-own-them-are-trade-secrets.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190706/17082642527/votin... 2- https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-project/ https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-project/
- ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago>https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-project/ https://sunlightfoundation.com/web-integrity-project/ Looks like they need more help: https://sunlightfoundation.com/2020/01/02/farewell-and-thanks-from-the-web-integrity-project/ https://sunlightfoundation.com/2020/01/02/farewell-and-thank...
- eru 7y agoVoting is inherently aristocratic. Sortition gets you democracy. At least according to some Greeks and Frenchmen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#Democratic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition#Democratic): > The idea that democracy is associated with sortition remained common in the 18th century. Charles de Secondat, baron de Montesquieu writes in The Spirit of the Laws, "The suffrage by lot is natural to democracy, as that by choice is to aristocracy."
- lonelappde 7y agoGreek sortition used the aristocracy as its population for selecting leaders.
- simond_d 7y agoThe guy who wrote this needs to put away his thesaurus
- lejalv 7y agoHN, mirror.
- rthomas6 7y agoPast a certain baseline, you're only a slave to money to the extent that you're a slave to your desires.
- missedthecue 7y agoThe title is really only saying "Humans Want a Higher Standard of Living" but phrased in a way that an angsty 15 year old might write.
- cmonnow 7y ago> Past a certain baseline Baseline for you, luxury for another. A homeless person would say you're a slave to having a house, 3 meals, heating, tap-water. Funnily, a saint would say the same. The only difference is desire+inability (hobo), detachment+ability (saint)
- rthomas6 7y agoThat's a good point. I suppose there is no real baseline. You can just say that a person it a slave to the extent of their desires/attachments. That's helpful to me, thank you.
- seibelj 7y agoThere is a strand of thinking that work = slavery, or at least working for someone else is. I disagree - I think working is a fundamental moral principle. We don’t want to allow a healthy, able-bodied person to live an easy care-free life if all they want to do is sit on the couch. Begging is a useful activity. It allows the giver of money to feel good about themselves. I would far prefer someone begs for their living, which takes effort, than sitting on the couch and have a check come to them automatically. We organize our world around people providing useful labor. You can pick whatever labor it is you want that is useful (someone pays for it) but you have to pick something. Money is just a tool for compensating services. Obviously the world is super complex and edge cases exist all over. But the moral principle is that I don’t want to give healthy, able-bodied people the right to do nothing except what interests them. I don’t want them to write poetry and paint all day unless someone else is willing to pay them for their output. That’s providing a useful service. Otherwise it’s just masturbation.
- say_it_as_it_is 7y agoTake note of the source of this article. Religion always shows up during dark days and creeps its tentacles around the vulnerable. For many, you're a slave to religion and then you die. People have used religion to control society way before capitalism became popular. To this day, it continues to control thoughts and behaviors of billions of people. Those who have acquired power in religious institutions abuse their power to influence all sorts of antisocial behavior. Society hasn't only an issue with capitalism but also religion. There's a strong argument that religion remains the greater threat.
- scroot 7y agoCheck out the book the author of this piece has written, "The Enchantments of Mammon." His very point is that neoliberal thinking has replaced religion in a vital sense
- cbHXBY1D 7y agoI'm about half way through the book and have enjoyed it. IMO it's an instant classic.
- Funes- 7y ago>There's a strong argument that religion remains the greater threat. Where is it, then? You haven't laid out a single argument, only broad, unfounded statements.
- DeathArrow 7y ago>Those are the gravitational principles of Jensen’s corporate cosmology, but it is also an eschatological narrative in which the kingdom of God has been replaced by capitalism as the consummation of history. To me corporatism is against the principle of capitalism and free market. Anyway, this article could have been written by Marx himself.
- travisoneill1 7y agoEverybody wants to consume the goods and services that others work to produce, but doesn't want to do any of the work themselves. The best part of this article was the authors statement of the argument against: > many intellectuals deny that “neoliberalism” is anything more than a cipher, an elastic anathema for whatever its users find objectionable in contemporary life
- state_less 7y ago"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but our self can free our minds." Bob Marley - Redemption Song
- Jotra7 7y agoWhy am I not surprised to see market worshippers in here crying about how "Bad man say mean things about my not religion."
- ghastmaster 7y agoThe term Neoliberalism attributed to post 1980 political figures is appropriate in that they tout themselves as classical liberal(hayek,mises,etc.) ideals proponents, but in reality they do not apply or conform to classical liberal ideals. The author does not understand that classical liberal interpretations of economics is an explanation of markets underlying principles. Reading mises, hayek, etc. Is akin to reading the code rather than using the software. The religious references in classical liberal writing is a reflection of how awesome it is to understand how something so seemingly complex works under quite simple principles. The author conflates modern pseudo classical liberal rhetoric and application with intellectually sincere thought. It is hard to read this article and take him serious. Boiled down, this is just a piece of rhetoric. There is very little intellectual value.
- tomrod 7y agoMy takeaway as well.
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- hudibras 7y agoHere's the paragraph that's making everyone mad: >Like the student and other forms of personal debt that prepare undergraduates to say two words—“Yes, boss”—the ideal of the entrepreneurial self serves a fundamentally disciplinary function: reinforcing the precarious nature of work in today’s digitalized, low-wage, precariously employed, and increasingly automated capitalism, one in which you are casually expendable and which places a premium on everlasting metamorphosis: upgrade your skills, your profile, your resume. But don’t worry, complain, or God help you, call a union: losing your job or seeing your skill set rendered obsolescent is an opportunity for “growth,” creativity, empowerment. When your own exploitation can be recast as a project rather than a problem—a source of fulfillment rather than an instance of injustice—then solidarity with others can be vilified as conformism, the herd instinct of normies, the last refuge of losers and mediocrities.
- lazyjones 7y agoReading this, one might think capitalism is cruel and entrepreneurship is a horrible struggle. Or one might conclude it perfectly mirrors nature and life. I'm not sure what the fuss is about.
- achillesheels 7y agoThe moral worth of the individual has been lost, leading to more and more what I would define as “market barbarism.” Social relations are now completely profane and not objectively striving for meaning beyond the temporal.
- lihaciudaniel 7y agoYou are slave to hope. You are slave to fear
- ciconia 7y agoOne of the outcomes of the present crisis is that capital has in a way lost much of its value. The stock market took a beating, people who bought apartments for renting on AirBNB now have dead weight properties with possibly a mortgage to pay. Meanwhile lots of people with well-paying jobs, like airline pilots for instance, took a blow putting them on practically the same level as low-paid workers and gig workers. If this crisis continues for a long-enough period of time, it might just bring about a substantial reorientation of the global economy, and perhaps a new balance between capital and labor.
- tomrod 7y agoI'm not a religious man, but one quote from a religious leader has always stuck out to me. "Interest is a terrific servant and a terrible master." The polis, bazaar, and pulpit have always been at odds as a triumvirate. My bet is on the bazaar. Even when people are put in jail economics is manifest, using cigarettes or other trinkets as currency for favors and meager supplies. The "market" the author rails against is a strawman.
- m0llusk 7y agoHere working with abstractions causes a loss of connection to the various factors that contributed to our path. The resurgence of liberal capitalism came after decades of elites dealing with a 90% income tax rate and unions so powerful that their ability to actually produce anything for a profit was beginning to slip away. But of course the author has little if any knowledge of or empathy for contemporary business people now let alone such folk from decades ago. All this talk of isms is supposed to be enlightening guidance, but ultimately governments need to set rules and tax rates and respond to various challenges. The mapping from ism to action is hardly ever direct and often ends up lost in mystery and obscurity.
- ryansc0tt 7y agoYou know the circle is complete when "Hacker News" upvotes a religious diatribe on the boundaries and merits of neoliberalism.
- cbHXBY1D 7y agoI have a feeling most here didn't seriously read this submission...
- lcall 7y agoHaving learned for myself that life has a purpose and there is life after death, with a just judge (and merciful, for the merciful), and that all things will be put in good order (my wording, emphasis on good): that all changes everything, for me at least. Today is Easter, when we commemorate the empty tomb....
- lcall 7y agoWith any downvotes, I would appreciate a courteous, thoughtful comment. I have not understood the possible harm in what I said, only likely disagreement. Disagreement is OK, but it seems that it could be better to write clearly rather than just quietly hide.
- Ghjklov 7y agoIsn't it obvious that dark retreats as light approaches? :) That's why you are downvoted, despite not writing anything even remotely offensive or wrong.
- lcall 7y agoThanks much for the kind words. (fwiw to anyone: I wrote about how I know what I said. Link is in my profile.)
- noir_lord 7y agoFWIW it’s worth I didn’t downvote you however your assertion of life after death was provided with no evidence but appears that your are asserting your faith as fact. That will rub some people the wrong way, me among them though not the way it would have once, I’ve someone what mellowed with age.
- lcall 7y agoThanks. I can assert that I have learned some things for myself. Details at my web site (linked from my profile--it is a simple site and I hope very navigable/skimmable...). Edit: I think I have a great deal of compelling evidence that is meaningful to me. Any other person has to decide if it is meaningful to them, but it is extensive (as I have written).
- DasMan 7y agoScary to see how many people here label this as word salad, congratulations you have the reading comprehension of a child for whom everything you say is a world salad. This is nothing close to a world salad and for every person that has gotten his college education in a boomer age, especially in Europe this would be just a Newspaper article. To explain it according to your kindergarten intellect and reading comprehension. The Neo-liberlist and our whole economy take the stance of the Lion King and the circle of life. This Circle is normal and there is no other way, the Lions eats the Zebra, accept it. Of course we are not animals and this argument is made from a power position only. But the zebras don't need the lions, they would be fine without them. And if Corona is showing one thing, it's that the landlords and the whole cruise ship/airlines stock industry does need the hoi polloi more than you need them. Neo-liberlism has taken the form of religion without anyone being able to ask if it's true what it is preaching.