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FWIW, states like New York and California have larger populations and economies than most European countries. That, I think, is an argument in favor of being mo

FWIW, states like New York and California have larger populations and economies than most European countries. That, I think, is an argument in favor of being more hands off and letting the governors figure out what’s right in their state. They’ll have a much better understanding of what their local problems and capabilities are.

eli 7y ago
No I don’t think it is. Their local problems are the exact same virus as everyone else’s local problems.
- surge 7y ago
  No its not, for instance just population density is a huge factor in the spread of a virus. If you live in an area where people are fairly isolated or travel outside their region very little, than you don't need to do the same extreme lockdowns or shut down the economy to the same degree to prevent the spread. I live in a state that's barely being touched by this, and not because we don't have it, but because there are two large cities that have maybe 100+ cases or significant hospital load, and the spread is insignificant because its very easy for people to avoid each other and take basic precautions during interaction to prevent the spread. If you live in apartment buildings, 6 feet from your neighbor with only a wall to separate you stacked stories high with shared elevators, stairwells, hallways, and the majority of transport requires people to be in close proximity on sidewalks, buses, or trains, the factors and extreme measures needed to stop its spread are very different than someone living in Alaska or Idaho. Those people don't need to stay in their homes, they just need to avoid going anywhere unnecessary with large groups of people and wash their hands and cover their mouths. Some states have higher rates of obesity or other risk factors, some states have higher populations of elderly than others. One size fits all measures doesn't work, you need focused precision efforts determined by locals and the only thing they need from the umbrella governments is support in their efforts for needs they've determined are necessary.
  - eli 7y ago
    Population density and demographics vary widely between New York City and the farms upstate and the old steel towns in western New York State. Maybe we should make each mayor fight the virus alone since they know their community better than the governor? Big differences between Manhattan and Staten Island too, maybe each borough is on its own?
    - leereeves 7y ago
      The feud between DeBlasio and Cuomo in NYC is one instance in which the mayor did know better. Mayor DeBlasio wanted to lockdown the city sooner, but Governor Cuomo blocked it. https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/cuomo-de-blasio-clash-over-possible-shelter-in-place-system-for-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/cuomo-de-blasio-clash-over-pos...
      - surge 7y ago
        DeBlasio was telling people on March 2 to go out on the town and watch a movie on Twitter. Trump is an easy scapegoat for obvious reasons, so politicians and local people use him when not wanting to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of their own actions, or lack there of. If you already take the position that the President can't be relied on and should be out of office, why would you delay taking action yourself to prevent a scenario where you're waiting on hospital ships and the US Army to assist, or acting like you're the only place in the US that needs help, then complaining later that the President didn't do more? It's schizophrenic and hypocritical.
  - greedo 7y ago
    You don't know how many cases your state has because we're doing a piss poor job of testing. Unless you're in Alaska, Wyoming, or North Dakota, your state has more than 300+ cases, and probably a magnitude more. This idea that states with smaller populations aren't at risk is a foolish one. Sure you may not end up with death counts like NYC, but you'll still end up with some; hopefully you won't overtax your healthcare system.
BiteCode_dev 7y ago
They don't have an army, a passport, borders, a seat an the UN or any real diplomacy ties. So unless you want to turn the state into a country, its power of negotiation is limited.
hdjrork 7y ago
There's nothing local specific in PPE. Everybody needs the same things.
Symbiote 7y ago
The EU organised a joint purchase. I'm not sure how much single-country purchasing has also happened. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_523 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_...
- paganel 7y ago
  That article was from March 24th, more recently (and as things got even more serious) bigger EU countries like Germany have started going solo, like documented in this recent article [1]. The article is in German (which I don't know) but I'm going to post a translation provided by some other guy from whom I've taken the link: > During the Corona crisis, Chancellor Angela Merkel, in talks with China's President Xi, created the conditions for Germany to gain direct access to a state-owned Chinese manufacturer of protective clothing. This is stated in a paper with which the Federal Ministry of Health informed the Bundestag about the procurement of protective clothing. > The paper for the Bundestag states that after a discussion between Merkel and Xi and subsequent talks between the Chinese Ministry of Commerce and the Federal Ministry of Health, "direct access to a state producer (Moheco) could be established" at the beginning of April. Moheco promised a "higher level of quality and delivery reliability". In addition, an "air bridge" between China and Germany will be established with unused Lufthansa passenger planes to transport the masks. As a non-German EU citizen I find this type of tactics very, very wrong and fundamentally detrimental to the future of the Union. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/schutzausruestung-merkels-direkter-draht-nach-china-1.4871798 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/schutzausruestung-merkel...
- the-dude 7y ago
  If I recall correctly, at least the first tender failed. No manufacturer responded.
suby 7y ago
I imagine you're going to want coordination so that states are not competing with each other to purchase ventilators / PPE / whatever else they need. Otherwise you're going to drive up the price for everyone. There's certainly an argument to be had that the federal government preventing states from acting can be costly, but I do think you need some level of coordination in order to prevent waste on a massive scale.
- toasterlovin 7y ago
  But the demand is worldwide. Surely a single state negotiating on its own is irrelevant in comparison to the fact that every single country on earth is trying to procure supplies at a level never before experienced.
joe_the_user 7y ago
The claim about size is basically a red herring. A small independent nation could set whatever course it wanted. But California is administered on a day to day basis based on Local, State and Federal policy. You might see local and state officials and workers more often but to a substantial degree they are executing Federal policy that come in the form of grants to states and municipalities. And this is to say that the states are not prepared act as nations at a moment's notice and without the expectation that they will act independently, they don't have either the resources or the experience (but I guess they're learning fast). Even more, if you live in the US, you might have noticed you pay far income tax to the Federal Government than to your state government. A lot of this money goes back to the states but only for particular, mandated purposes. This makes it rather difficult, again, for states to suddenly offer their own emergency management system, especially when Feds have a fully budgeted emergency management agency (FEMA, the, uh, Federal Emergency Management Agency) where the states don't agencies with equivalent funding. So when FEMA doesn't actually act, we have a serious problem.

eli 7y ago

No I don’t think it is. Their local problems are the exact same virus as everyone else’s local problems.

surge 7y ago
No its not, for instance just population density is a huge factor in the spread of a virus. If you live in an area where people are fairly isolated or travel outside their region very little, than you don't need to do the same extreme lockdowns or shut down the economy to the same degree to prevent the spread. I live in a state that's barely being touched by this, and not because we don't have it, but because there are two large cities that have maybe 100+ cases or significant hospital load, and the spread is insignificant because its very easy for people to avoid each other and take basic precautions during interaction to prevent the spread. If you live in apartment buildings, 6 feet from your neighbor with only a wall to separate you stacked stories high with shared elevators, stairwells, hallways, and the majority of transport requires people to be in close proximity on sidewalks, buses, or trains, the factors and extreme measures needed to stop its spread are very different than someone living in Alaska or Idaho. Those people don't need to stay in their homes, they just need to avoid going anywhere unnecessary with large groups of people and wash their hands and cover their mouths. Some states have higher rates of obesity or other risk factors, some states have higher populations of elderly than others. One size fits all measures doesn't work, you need focused precision efforts determined by locals and the only thing they need from the umbrella governments is support in their efforts for needs they've determined are necessary.
- eli 7y ago
  Population density and demographics vary widely between New York City and the farms upstate and the old steel towns in western New York State. Maybe we should make each mayor fight the virus alone since they know their community better than the governor? Big differences between Manhattan and Staten Island too, maybe each borough is on its own?
  - leereeves 7y ago
    The feud between DeBlasio and Cuomo in NYC is one instance in which the mayor did know better. Mayor DeBlasio wanted to lockdown the city sooner, but Governor Cuomo blocked it. https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/cuomo-de-blasio-clash-over-possible-shelter-in-place-system-for-nyc/ https://nypost.com/2020/03/17/cuomo-de-blasio-clash-over-pos...
    - surge 7y ago
      DeBlasio was telling people on March 2 to go out on the town and watch a movie on Twitter. Trump is an easy scapegoat for obvious reasons, so politicians and local people use him when not wanting to accept personal responsibility for the consequences of their own actions, or lack there of. If you already take the position that the President can't be relied on and should be out of office, why would you delay taking action yourself to prevent a scenario where you're waiting on hospital ships and the US Army to assist, or acting like you're the only place in the US that needs help, then complaining later that the President didn't do more? It's schizophrenic and hypocritical.
- greedo 7y ago
  You don't know how many cases your state has because we're doing a piss poor job of testing. Unless you're in Alaska, Wyoming, or North Dakota, your state has more than 300+ cases, and probably a magnitude more. This idea that states with smaller populations aren't at risk is a foolish one. Sure you may not end up with death counts like NYC, but you'll still end up with some; hopefully you won't overtax your healthcare system.

BiteCode_dev 7y ago

They don't have an army, a passport, borders, a seat an the UN or any real diplomacy ties. So unless you want to turn the state into a country, its power of negotiation is limited.

hdjrork 7y ago

There's nothing local specific in PPE. Everybody needs the same things.

Symbiote 7y ago

The EU organised a joint purchase. I'm not sure how much single-country purchasing has also happened. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_523 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_...

paganel 7y ago
That article was from March 24th, more recently (and as things got even more serious) bigger EU countries like Germany have started going solo, like documented in this recent article [1]. The article is in German (which I don't know) but I'm going to post a translation provided by some other guy from whom I've taken the link: > During the Corona crisis, Chancellor Angela Merkel, in talks with China's President Xi, created the conditions for Germany to gain direct access to a state-owned Chinese manufacturer of protective clothing. This is stated in a paper with which the Federal Ministry of Health informed the Bundestag about the procurement of protective clothing. > The paper for the Bundestag states that after a discussion between Merkel and Xi and subsequent talks between the Chinese Ministry of Commerce and the Federal Ministry of Health, "direct access to a state producer (Moheco) could be established" at the beginning of April. Moheco promised a "higher level of quality and delivery reliability". In addition, an "air bridge" between China and Germany will be established with unused Lufthansa passenger planes to transport the masks. As a non-German EU citizen I find this type of tactics very, very wrong and fundamentally detrimental to the future of the Union. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/schutzausruestung-merkels-direkter-draht-nach-china-1.4871798 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/schutzausruestung-merkel...
the-dude 7y ago
If I recall correctly, at least the first tender failed. No manufacturer responded.

suby 7y ago

I imagine you're going to want coordination so that states are not competing with each other to purchase ventilators / PPE / whatever else they need. Otherwise you're going to drive up the price for everyone. There's certainly an argument to be had that the federal government preventing states from acting can be costly, but I do think you need some level of coordination in order to prevent waste on a massive scale.

toasterlovin 7y ago
But the demand is worldwide. Surely a single state negotiating on its own is irrelevant in comparison to the fact that every single country on earth is trying to procure supplies at a level never before experienced.

joe_the_user 7y ago

The claim about size is basically a red herring. A small independent nation could set whatever course it wanted. But California is administered on a day to day basis based on Local, State and Federal policy. You might see local and state officials and workers more often but to a substantial degree they are executing Federal policy that come in the form of grants to states and municipalities. And this is to say that the states are not prepared act as nations at a moment's notice and without the expectation that they will act independently, they don't have either the resources or the experience (but I guess they're learning fast). Even more, if you live in the US, you might have noticed you pay far income tax to the Federal Government than to your state government. A lot of this money goes back to the states but only for particular, mandated purposes. This makes it rather difficult, again, for states to suddenly offer their own emergency management system, especially when Feds have a fully budgeted emergency management agency (FEMA, the, uh, Federal Emergency Management Agency) where the states don't agencies with equivalent funding. So when FEMA doesn't actually act, we have a serious problem.