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Actually this pandemic has shown some true colors of many nations. 1) US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company 2) Ch

Actually this pandemic has shown some true colors of many nations. 1) US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. 3) European countries are in-fighting for supplies. Switzerland wants supplies from Germany who is unwilling to supply them. Austria and Germany butt heads. 4) India banning critical medical exports There are so many stories of how each nation is behaving. Even within the US, states are bidding against each other and the federal government has not shown solid leadership. When times are grim, humans tend to invoke strong tribal instincts (for e.g. brotherhood that forms between soldiers). If we hypothetically had a more deadly virus than Coronavirus, say with a CFR of 50% and we were unable to stop it, there would be in-fighting between counties and neighborhoods. There are some good stories too, especially the sacrifice of the healthcare workers, delivery staff and politicians. When times are great -> Globalism When times are tough -> Isolation and tribalism

hkmurakami 7y ago
I personally enjoyed the hypocrisy of China initially requesting Nations to not "overreact" and close borders to its travelers (mid February), then proceeding to do exactly this towards these same nations (mid March) when things became worse overseas.
- philliphaydon 7y ago
  During Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 china closed it's borders to Mexico, but turns around and says it's unfair when people close their borders to china. Then proceeded to close their borders AGAIN. facepalm
  - Medicalidiot 7y ago
    SARS happened in 2002-2004, no?
    - philliphaydon 7y ago
      You're right, I'm thinking Swine Flu. Thanks.
    - ftvy 7y ago
      SARS was closer to 1999-2000.
      - Medicalidiot 7y ago
        No, it wasn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome#Outbreak_in_South_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...
        ftvy 7y ago
        I remembered incorrectly. Thanks for the link.
  - sct202 7y ago
    No one has to listen to the CCP. The CCP acts offended by everything.
    - surge 7y ago
      The problem is, the WHO does, they even said this thing wasn't transmitted person to person. And they're supposed to be the authority everyone was saying to listen to.
      - henearkr 7y ago
        I think that the WHO communication was proportionate to the current knowledge at the time of each of their interventions. First of all they said, when it was clear there was a problem "We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test." (and then Trump and almost everybody else did not want to hear that) And moreover they said more exactly, some time before the previous item, that "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission". So your position is a deformation of their words.
        blub 7y ago
        No. The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China to the point of disgracefully delaying calling it a pandemic and then playing catch-up when individual countries started ignoring the WHO and implemented their own measures. Then the WHO switched gears and complained that the countries were doing too little too late. They've been almost completely worthless in this crisis.
        reaperducer 7y ago
        The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China See also: The whole WHO/Taiwan debacle, which is still ongoing. The WHO is OK risking the lives of people in Taiwan in order to keep the mainland happy. You would think that the WHO would put the health of people, regardless of where they live, ahead of politics.
  - yibg 7y ago
    Seems like a pretty common thing from major powers doesn't it. Maybe it's just human nature? e.g. US banning exports of respirators but throwing a tantrum when India tries to ban the export of hydroxychloroquine. Not sure what the solution here is, but it certainly does seem it's everyone for themselves in these situations.
- throwawaysea 7y ago
  Not just China but the WHO, who recommended no international travel restrictions very late into this crisis (https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/who-advice-for-international-travel-and-trade-in-relation-to-the-outbreak-of-pneumonia-caused-by-a-new-coronavirus-in-china https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/who-advice-for...), then ignored Taiwan’s requests in favor of Beijing propaganda and claimed the virus does not transmit between humans (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-05/taiwan-s-advance-on-who-in-covid-19-shows-its-place-in-world https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-05/taiwan...), and has repeated failures seen in their response to other health crises (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-in...).
  - systemvoltage 7y ago
    In addition, WHO is heavily influenced by China; here is an interview with a senior WHO official who was asked about Taiwan - he simply hangs up the phone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - FooBarWidget 7y ago
      WHO does not officially recognize Taiwan because the UN does not officially recognize Taiwan, and the WHO is a UN organization. It is as simple as that. If you disagree then you gotta take it to the UN. The poor guys at the WHO just want to focus on fighting diseases, and yet everybody is trying to use them for political agendas. If I was that guy I would be inclined to shut down too.
      - foobiekr 7y ago
        His behavior was nonetheless completely unprofessional. He could easily have stated, exactly as you did, the situation and asked to move on.
- AtomicOrbital 7y ago
  when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan ... at the same time neighbor countries with china tried to block cross boarder movement yet china forced those trade routes to stay open well after Wuhan had entered lockdown - pure evil
  - vezycash 7y ago
    >when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan I'd like someone else to confirm this because I've not heard about this before now.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      A quick Googing indicates that Wuhan airport closed when the city was put into lockdown and re-opened yesterday when the lockdown of the city was lifted. This makes sense considering that, when the lockdown started, many countries had to discuss with the Chinese government in order to allow special flights to evacuate their citizens.
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    > when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan Evidence for this claim? I believe they closed all movement, including international flights.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - bigpumpkin 7y ago
    This is false, by the time they shut down movement out of Wuhan, the airport was closed. There were, however, people who already left Wuhan who then left the country. There were also repatriation flights out of Wuhan.
    - 7y ago
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  I don't think it's hypocrisy. At the time the vast majority of the cases in China were in Wuhan and Hubei, which had been put on lockdown with airports closed, but the rest of the country has much fewer cases. No country imposed full ban on travels with countries that had the number of cases seen in China outside Wuhan/Hubei. Whether this was the right or wrong decision to make is another issue. The same discussion can be had about travellers from Italy just a few weeks later. At the end of the day it is also down to each country to make its own decision on who to accept.
  - surge 7y ago
    The much fewer cases thing was because doctors were being told to lie about the numbers or attribute it to viral pneumonia, they were carrying off bodies and quarantining sections of cities elsewhere too, you just had to look at WeChat to see it.
    - mytailorisrich 7y ago
      Can we please stop this? HN sinks to the gutter every time China pops up as a subject and no discussion is possible, as seen from the reaction to my previous comment.
      - surge 7y ago
        HN isn't sinking into the gutter calling out a government for doing horrifying things, spreading misinformation, suppressing accurate information, all to save face/embarrassment and keep its economy. People here read alternate sources of news, see the videos leaking out on the Internet, they're very savy and know that any reporting that rely on CCP as primary source of info are bird cage liner. The CCP acted in bad faith, and the world suffered for it, and this isn't the first time.
        mytailorisrich 7y ago
        You are proving my point with this bigoted response so please no need to bother 'replying' to my comments. Thanks.
- systemvoltage 7y ago
  CCP does not understand that playing asymmetric games from business laws (booting Uber off of China for example), diplomacy and global influence, etc is damaging long term brand and goodwill. In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice - complete Wuhan style measures are unacceptable say in Sweden. This asymmetry is going to give a short term boost to China. Long term, my opinion is that western democracies will realize what they’re against - all eggs in a single totalitarian basket - is a bad idea. Manufacturing and reliance on China will change. It is already changing: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-08/japan-to-fund-firms-to-shift-production-out-of-china https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-08/japan...
  - showbufire 7y ago
    booting off Uber? Have you ever used Uber and its local competitor Didi in China? I've used both multiple times. The competition was just too much, both companies were losing money at a pace that's not sustainable. The Uber China business was acquired, and in return Uber received cash and stakes in Didi.
    - systemvoltage 7y ago
      Oh come on, there is no denying that China subsidizes local businesses asymmetrically. I've lived in China and have used Didi.
      - chrischen 7y ago
        I don’t think you can claim definitively that that is why Uber lost. Uber lost in other markets too, like in Southeast Asia. I don’t think anyone can win this argument with you since you can always claim that the Chinese government favors local companies, so therefore ____ lost. But at least I can give some counterpoints: Tesla hasn’t lost in China.
    - novok 7y ago
      If you look into the details you'll find out that in typical CCP fashion they were tipping the scales on Didi.
- addHocker 7y ago
  The whole diagou - parallel trader system - and lots of external companies, who usually buy cosmetics and milkpowder, where state instructed to buy masks & medical supplies en bulk, to ship back to china. All this, while the WHO claimed that nothing dangerous was going on and trade should be prohibited. The WHO should be disbanded and replaced by a organisation, with votes- based on public health track-records. All nations that didnt trust the whole setup and had there own warning systems in place (taiwan, south-korea, japan) did well in this crisis.
rsweeney21 7y ago
Nations exist to protect it's citizens. So yeah, as they should, each country is prioritizing their own needs before exporting any surplus to other countries. The challenge is no one really has any idea how much of the supplies they actually need. It's interesting to me that you find this surprising or view it as bad behavior.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  States use serving a “nation” as a retroactive justification for doing what they have always done. In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody.
  - mmm_grayons 7y ago
    Leaders face a rather difficult situation: the governments of nations exist to protect their own citizens. Were they to export supplies to others, citizens wouldn't be happy. Even were it to save twice as many citizens in a foreign nation as it would have saved in the exporting one. Would you be happy with a national government that placed the lives of foreigners above yours? Even if you would, most people wouldn't be. This isn't limited to international relations, of course. The federal stockpiles of PPE are nearly depleted [0]. If the virus situation in America worsens, some states will be extremely pissed that the early states got a large chunk of the federal stockpiles, leaving none later on for them. Were the federal government to reserve supplies for states that were affected later, they would face anger from those that are peaking now. > In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody. This is untrue. Keeping supplies does help some people, the ones with whom they are kept. It may hurt others, but it does help people. I wonder if this is something like a prisoners' dilemma situation. A co-ordinated global response might be the best option, but it would require a sacrifice from each nation. Even if they might benefit in the end, in the days of non-stop media coverage, no government is willing to take the heat for making that sacrifice. [0]: https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/federal-government-stockpile-of-ppe-nearly-depleted/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/federal-government-stockpile-o...
  - throw_m239339 7y ago
    > In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody. Officials are elected to serve the need of their own constituants first and foremost, not foreign interests. There is nothing selfish about that. The American government doesn't have to consult with Canada or Mexico before taking a decision in times of crisis. This is the very core idea behind a representative democracy. Where politicians failed is with their lack of foresight when it comes to stocking masks and ventilators, they didn't fail because they were "selfish" toward other nations.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Allow me to disagree with this one. I see people questioning China's motives on helping other countries, but in my opinion this is a baseless and overly cynical view of things, not truth. People want to buy into the "China has motives" story so much, that they jump on every incident that may imply that. The Dutch situation is typical. FYI: I am Dutch. Research has shown that mistakes were made on the Dutch side: because of haste and pressure (because supplies are low), and because the buyers didn't fully understand Chinese mask standards, they ordered the wrong thing. China did not intentionally send bad masks, nor was it a manufacturing quality problem.
- rorykoehler 7y ago
  The CCP don't have a great track record of giving a shit about people at home. What makes you think they care for anything but the opportunity/ability to project more power abroad?
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    I will also have to disagree on that one. I was born in China, I now live in Europe, and "CCP doesn't give a shit about people" is a bad western stereotype. Of course, define "caring". Does any other government, including democratic ones, truly care about people? Debatable. But what I'm saying is that CCP is not the mass-murdering villain that Hacker News makes it out to be. What about censorship, etc? Yes bad things do happen. Lots of good things also happen. Just like all countries, nothing is perfect. I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. The point is: you need to have a more nuanced understanding of the CCP than that of a cartoon villain. Here are some facts: all coronavirus patients got free treatment, free stays in isolation hotels, all Wuhan residents got free food delivered to their homes. In contrast to what happened here in Europe, the CCP took a strong stance to save as many of their own citizen as they can instead of worrying about economic impact. You may not believe me. But take a look at these: "I'm sitting home in Wuhan and eating free vegetables and fish govt sent me and you tell me it hurts my human rights???" -- https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s=20 https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s... New Wuhan Doctor Speaks Out From Ground Zero -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 American and Canadian, living & studying in China, talk about how it is actually like there -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI
atonse 7y ago
As it should be. A nation's government should ABSOLUTELY put its citizens over everything else. Not sure what you would have them do instead? What is happening is unfair to some, but the individual governments are doing exactly what they should be doing, valuing their people above all else.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  That's true, but at the same time, it shows the need for a global government to coordinate responses to global problems like this pandemic.
  - lgleason 7y ago
    Unless that global government is dominated by Chinese communist government ideology or shows the same judgement as the WHO. Thanks but no thanks. At least with nation states you have some checks and balances. It's also way too much concentrated power for my liking.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      > Unless that global government is dominated by Chinese communist government ideology or shows the same judgement as the WHO. Or like the federal government of the United States. I think we've been having pretty bad luck this year with large and influential organizations, which is a fair counterpoint to a global government proposal.
  - lliamander 7y ago
    A global government would have led to a more uniform response, but arguably that's exactly what we don't want in a crisis like this. Each nation was able to react differently, and those different responses have provided us the closest thing we have to controlled experiments. Those experiments have allowed us to understand the spread of this disease better.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
throw4547 7y ago
> There are some good stories too, especially the sacrifice of the healthcare workers What is good about that? They are terrified to come to work. This heroism stuff is just bullshit so we can shame people who refuse to die. After crisis is over, there will be no financial compensation (overtimes, hazardous environment, no protective equipment).
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > This heroism stuff is just bullshit so we can shame people who refuse to die. Every medical worker who goes into the fray to help save people in this pandemic deserves the highest praise. Every medical worker who doesn't on the grounds that it's extremely unsafe deserves understanding - after all, as the EMS mantra goes, the safety of the rescuer takes priority over the rescue; a sick or dead medical practitioner can't help anyone anymore. Every hospital administrator and every politician who did anything but their absolute best to help ensure a safe working environment for medical workers, and every private company that continued to fleece healthcare, deserve to be called out, shunned and stripped of their possessions. I have doctors in my family, and I worry about their lives every day. Talking with them, I wouldn't blame my Poland's medical staff if they all decided to just pack up and leave. It's an absolute tragedy that medical personnel has to fight an uphill battle just to have a chance of not dying, trying to save people from COVID-19. As much as I can believe the news, it's the same in most of Europe and in the US. I hope that after the dust settles, there will be a reckoning. That people will finally demand that their governments unbreak their healthcare.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > after all, as the EMS mantra goes, the safety of the rescuer takes priority over the rescue Years back when I was trained as a lifeguard, this point was repeatedly emphasized. The first thing you do when you see somebody who needs help is to review the situation for any environmental hazard that could harm you too. It makes no sense to run up to somebody laying on the ground only to slip on the same puddle and crack your skull too. That would only make the situation worse.
ubermon 7y ago
2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. I am curious what will be considered not fake and genuine support? Damned if they and damned if they don’t. AFAIK Dutch issued a article clarify the mistake they made which nobody seems to care. I don’t think any single nation can or will survive this alone unless they want to serve all connections to the world. So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? Not like a short sighted prick?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  > So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? It's definitely in their interest, because in terms of realpolitik, this is their golden opportunity one-up the US on the world stage, possibly even making Europe more aligned with them than with the States.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Turns out everyone is just flailing and drunk on the dance floor, geopolitically.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      I just hope they stay away from their respective red button consoles.
  - systemvoltage 7y ago
    All democratic nations should get together and invest in manufacturing. If democracy falls, the treaty would asymetrically punish those that give up rights and freedom of their people.
- systemvoltage 7y ago
  There are a ton of sources here: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-defective-covid-19-fighting-medical-equipment https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-d... China is trying the same thing that US did for many decades after WWII - to rally up global support through humanitarian aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid The problem is that the whole thing feels fake for 2 reasons (this is my personal opinion): 1) They are an authoritarian state using soft power for a democratic nation (Italy, Netherlands) - there is a real conflict of interest. 2) It is "pull" rather than "push" when it comes to soft power. You cannot muscle your way through it. As a superpower, you need to influence other nations such that those nations "want" to collaborate and be influenced - leading by example, helping them gain foothold after the catastrophy, long term investments in shared interests, etc. You can't buy your way into it. IMO - China has a branding and goodwill problem :-). You're seeing that in HK. People outside of this propaganda sphere have no trust in the CCP.
kosievdmerwe 7y ago
> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Given that China seems to force countries to pay for PPE the same countries previously donated to China, you're right for being skeptical. https://abc14news.com/2020/04/06/china-forces-italy-to-buy-same-coronavirus-supplies-it-had-donated-to-beijing-a-few-weeks-ago/ https://abc14news.com/2020/04/06/china-forces-italy-to-buy-s...
- oefrha 7y ago
  I would find this report more reliable if it quotes Italian officials, not Trump administration said this, Pence said that. Basing an entire article on the hearsay of an unrelated third party (that has a less than stellar track record of telling the truth) is just... odd.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I think people may also be mixing up the two parallel streams of PPEs - there were equipment donations, and at the same time, Chinese manufacturers are selling PPEs like they normally do.
- billfruit 7y ago
  Some of the PPEs were paid orders placed on Chinese private companies, of course they will have to be paid, since they are being purchased. This is not to be confused with donations of equipment.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  This claim is false. An interview with an Italian official confirms it to be false. https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1247163875339800577?s=20 https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1247163875339800577?s=2...
twomoretime 7y ago
>US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company This is bullshit. At least three of those stories have been quietly retracted. Also you're damn right US should be putting itselt first when in crisis. This has also confirmed the true colors of the media - hypocrites who spent months comparing COVID to the flu and yelling "sinophobia!" For closing the border, before turning on a dime to shit on the president for not being prepared. >When times are great -> Globalism >When times are tough -> Isolation and tribalism When times are great, people become naive and forget that we live in a world with scarce resources and different cultures. When times are tough we are suddenly reminded of the way things actually are, that life is not the utopian vision that some people seem to think.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Yeah being President sucks. Supposed to be well-informed and make correct decisions, not rely on journalist's whining to create policy and take action. But so much easier to just issue sound-bytes and respond to whatever is the issue of the day.
  - twomoretime 7y ago
    Everybody screwed up. But journalists have a serious problem with exaggerating and outright falsifying controversies when their party is out of office. That doesn't excuse the actions of Republican party members but it does destroy the credibility of the journalistic establishment. Which has devolved into a total cash grabbing, activist joke. And this happened before Trump.
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Agreed. Sometime after web publishing became a thing, and Editors left the equation.
mkbkn 7y ago
> India banning critical medical exports India did allow export for humanitarian purposes (last month).
sbmthakur 7y ago
In times of a global crisis, it makes sense to first take care of those who are near you. Many nations have sent aids to other nations to fight this pandemic, so I won't say it's complete tribalism. More like this situation has shown us one of the downsides of globalism.
lapnitnelav 7y ago
I am particularly saddened by how Europe has handled the situation. Not that I can blame the EU because I'm pretty sure it couldn't have done (as in imposed) anything there and it clearly highlights the deficiencies of being somewhere in the middle. It was a litmus test and it's pretty obvious that we need to take it further rather than competing with each other.
JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Unsurprising. The whole concept of 'state' is a group with its own interests. And not a lot different from the century-old pandemic "Spanish Flu". Essentially civilized reciprocity broke down then too.
surge 7y ago
French seized supplies bound for Britain. Everyone is doing it. You always protect your own citizens first, then once you're in a position of strength, then you help your neighbor. If you're both in a hole, you have to get out of the hole first before you help your friend out, otherwise you're just both going to be in the hole. Put your mask on before assisting other passengers, etc. So many analogies, but this is very basic behavior and expected. Until a country no longer has a shortage themselves, its only when they have an abundance should they give needed supplies away.
- chillacy 7y ago
  There's got to be a difference between putting on your own mask first and taking your friend's mask...
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    But when you don’t make your own masks then the one who does is free to shape their own relations and deals.
mrtweetyhack 7y ago
China is SELLING supplies, not sending.
HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
>India banning critical medical exports At this point I need to mention this: The USA has managed to successfully enforce bogus patents of drugs that should be generics in the EU. So instead of producing them at home we import them from India. The ICU I did my rotation on would be impossible to work without drugs produced in India.
bakul 7y ago
You forgot: 5) Rich nations hoovering up all coronavirus related supplies leaving poor nations precious little. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/world/coronavirus-equipment-rich-poor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/world/coronavirus-equipme... "Scientists in Africa and Latin America have been told by manufacturers that orders for vital testing kits cannot be filled for months, because the supply chain is in upheaval and almost everything they produce is going to America or Europe."

hkmurakami 7y ago

I personally enjoyed the hypocrisy of China initially requesting Nations to not "overreact" and close borders to its travelers (mid February), then proceeding to do exactly this towards these same nations (mid March) when things became worse overseas.

philliphaydon 7y ago
During Swine Flu outbreak in 2009 china closed it's borders to Mexico, but turns around and says it's unfair when people close their borders to china. Then proceeded to close their borders AGAIN. facepalm
- Medicalidiot 7y ago
  SARS happened in 2002-2004, no?
  - philliphaydon 7y ago
    You're right, I'm thinking Swine Flu. Thanks.
  - ftvy 7y ago
    SARS was closer to 1999-2000.
    - Medicalidiot 7y ago
      No, it wasn't https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndrome#Outbreak_in_South_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_acute_respiratory_syndr...
      - ftvy 7y ago
        I remembered incorrectly. Thanks for the link.
- sct202 7y ago
  No one has to listen to the CCP. The CCP acts offended by everything.
  - surge 7y ago
    The problem is, the WHO does, they even said this thing wasn't transmitted person to person. And they're supposed to be the authority everyone was saying to listen to.
    - henearkr 7y ago
      I think that the WHO communication was proportionate to the current knowledge at the time of each of their interventions. First of all they said, when it was clear there was a problem "We have a simple message for all countries: test, test, test." (and then Trump and almost everybody else did not want to hear that) And moreover they said more exactly, some time before the previous item, that "Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission". So your position is a deformation of their words.
      - blub 7y ago
        No. The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China to the point of disgracefully delaying calling it a pandemic and then playing catch-up when individual countries started ignoring the WHO and implemented their own measures. Then the WHO switched gears and complained that the countries were doing too little too late. They've been almost completely worthless in this crisis.
        reaperducer 7y ago
        The WHO constantly downplayed this pandemic and kowtowed to China See also: The whole WHO/Taiwan debacle, which is still ongoing. The WHO is OK risking the lives of people in Taiwan in order to keep the mainland happy. You would think that the WHO would put the health of people, regardless of where they live, ahead of politics.
- yibg 7y ago
  Seems like a pretty common thing from major powers doesn't it. Maybe it's just human nature? e.g. US banning exports of respirators but throwing a tantrum when India tries to ban the export of hydroxychloroquine. Not sure what the solution here is, but it certainly does seem it's everyone for themselves in these situations.
throwawaysea 7y ago
Not just China but the WHO, who recommended no international travel restrictions very late into this crisis (https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/who-advice-for-international-travel-and-trade-in-relation-to-the-outbreak-of-pneumonia-caused-by-a-new-coronavirus-in-china https://www.who.int/news-room/articles-detail/who-advice-for...), then ignored Taiwan’s requests in favor of Beijing propaganda and claimed the virus does not transmit between humans (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-05/taiwan-s-advance-on-who-in-covid-19-shows-its-place-in-world https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-04-05/taiwan...), and has repeated failures seen in their response to other health crises (https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/14/asia/coronavirus-who-china-in...).
- systemvoltage 7y ago
  In addition, WHO is heavily influenced by China; here is an interview with a senior WHO official who was asked about Taiwan - he simply hangs up the phone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCYFh8U2xM
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - FooBarWidget 7y ago
    WHO does not officially recognize Taiwan because the UN does not officially recognize Taiwan, and the WHO is a UN organization. It is as simple as that. If you disagree then you gotta take it to the UN. The poor guys at the WHO just want to focus on fighting diseases, and yet everybody is trying to use them for political agendas. If I was that guy I would be inclined to shut down too.
    - foobiekr 7y ago
      His behavior was nonetheless completely unprofessional. He could easily have stated, exactly as you did, the situation and asked to move on.
AtomicOrbital 7y ago
when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan ... at the same time neighbor countries with china tried to block cross boarder movement yet china forced those trade routes to stay open well after Wuhan had entered lockdown - pure evil
- vezycash 7y ago
  >when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan I'd like someone else to confirm this because I've not heard about this before now.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    A quick Googing indicates that Wuhan airport closed when the city was put into lockdown and re-opened yesterday when the lockdown of the city was lifted. This makes sense considering that, when the lockdown started, many countries had to discuss with the Chinese government in order to allow special flights to evacuate their citizens.
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  > when china shutdown domestic movement into/out of Wuhan they kept open international movement into/out of Wuhan Evidence for this claim? I believe they closed all movement, including international flights.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- bigpumpkin 7y ago
  This is false, by the time they shut down movement out of Wuhan, the airport was closed. There were, however, people who already left Wuhan who then left the country. There were also repatriation flights out of Wuhan.
  - 7y ago
mytailorisrich 7y ago
I don't think it's hypocrisy. At the time the vast majority of the cases in China were in Wuhan and Hubei, which had been put on lockdown with airports closed, but the rest of the country has much fewer cases. No country imposed full ban on travels with countries that had the number of cases seen in China outside Wuhan/Hubei. Whether this was the right or wrong decision to make is another issue. The same discussion can be had about travellers from Italy just a few weeks later. At the end of the day it is also down to each country to make its own decision on who to accept.
- surge 7y ago
  The much fewer cases thing was because doctors were being told to lie about the numbers or attribute it to viral pneumonia, they were carrying off bodies and quarantining sections of cities elsewhere too, you just had to look at WeChat to see it.
  - mytailorisrich 7y ago
    Can we please stop this? HN sinks to the gutter every time China pops up as a subject and no discussion is possible, as seen from the reaction to my previous comment.
    - surge 7y ago
      HN isn't sinking into the gutter calling out a government for doing horrifying things, spreading misinformation, suppressing accurate information, all to save face/embarrassment and keep its economy. People here read alternate sources of news, see the videos leaking out on the Internet, they're very savy and know that any reporting that rely on CCP as primary source of info are bird cage liner. The CCP acted in bad faith, and the world suffered for it, and this isn't the first time.
      - mytailorisrich 7y ago
        You are proving my point with this bigoted response so please no need to bother 'replying' to my comments. Thanks.
systemvoltage 7y ago
CCP does not understand that playing asymmetric games from business laws (booting Uber off of China for example), diplomacy and global influence, etc is damaging long term brand and goodwill. In this pandemic, democratic nations are suffering more than authoritarian regimes purely by choice - complete Wuhan style measures are unacceptable say in Sweden. This asymmetry is going to give a short term boost to China. Long term, my opinion is that western democracies will realize what they’re against - all eggs in a single totalitarian basket - is a bad idea. Manufacturing and reliance on China will change. It is already changing: https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-08/japan-to-fund-firms-to-shift-production-out-of-china https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-04-08/japan...
- showbufire 7y ago
  booting off Uber? Have you ever used Uber and its local competitor Didi in China? I've used both multiple times. The competition was just too much, both companies were losing money at a pace that's not sustainable. The Uber China business was acquired, and in return Uber received cash and stakes in Didi.
  - systemvoltage 7y ago
    Oh come on, there is no denying that China subsidizes local businesses asymmetrically. I've lived in China and have used Didi.
    - chrischen 7y ago
      I don’t think you can claim definitively that that is why Uber lost. Uber lost in other markets too, like in Southeast Asia. I don’t think anyone can win this argument with you since you can always claim that the Chinese government favors local companies, so therefore ____ lost. But at least I can give some counterpoints: Tesla hasn’t lost in China.
  - novok 7y ago
    If you look into the details you'll find out that in typical CCP fashion they were tipping the scales on Didi.
addHocker 7y ago
The whole diagou - parallel trader system - and lots of external companies, who usually buy cosmetics and milkpowder, where state instructed to buy masks & medical supplies en bulk, to ship back to china. All this, while the WHO claimed that nothing dangerous was going on and trade should be prohibited. The WHO should be disbanded and replaced by a organisation, with votes- based on public health track-records. All nations that didnt trust the whole setup and had there own warning systems in place (taiwan, south-korea, japan) did well in this crisis.

rsweeney21 7y ago

Nations exist to protect it's citizens. So yeah, as they should, each country is prioritizing their own needs before exporting any surplus to other countries. The challenge is no one really has any idea how much of the supplies they actually need. It's interesting to me that you find this surprising or view it as bad behavior.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
States use serving a “nation” as a retroactive justification for doing what they have always done. In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody.
- mmm_grayons 7y ago
  Leaders face a rather difficult situation: the governments of nations exist to protect their own citizens. Were they to export supplies to others, citizens wouldn't be happy. Even were it to save twice as many citizens in a foreign nation as it would have saved in the exporting one. Would you be happy with a national government that placed the lives of foreigners above yours? Even if you would, most people wouldn't be. This isn't limited to international relations, of course. The federal stockpiles of PPE are nearly depleted [0]. If the virus situation in America worsens, some states will be extremely pissed that the early states got a large chunk of the federal stockpiles, leaving none later on for them. Were the federal government to reserve supplies for states that were affected later, they would face anger from those that are peaking now. > In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody. This is untrue. Keeping supplies does help some people, the ones with whom they are kept. It may hurt others, but it does help people. I wonder if this is something like a prisoners' dilemma situation. A co-ordinated global response might be the best option, but it would require a sacrifice from each nation. Even if they might benefit in the end, in the days of non-stop media coverage, no government is willing to take the heat for making that sacrifice. [0]: https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/federal-government-stockpile-of-ppe-nearly-depleted/ https://nypost.com/2020/04/09/federal-government-stockpile-o...
- throw_m239339 7y ago
  > In a global crisis, selfish actions help nobody. Officials are elected to serve the need of their own constituants first and foremost, not foreign interests. There is nothing selfish about that. The American government doesn't have to consult with Canada or Mexico before taking a decision in times of crisis. This is the very core idea behind a representative democracy. Where politicians failed is with their lack of foresight when it comes to stocking masks and ventilators, they didn't fail because they were "selfish" toward other nations.

FooBarWidget 7y ago

> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Allow me to disagree with this one. I see people questioning China's motives on helping other countries, but in my opinion this is a baseless and overly cynical view of things, not truth. People want to buy into the "China has motives" story so much, that they jump on every incident that may imply that. The Dutch situation is typical. FYI: I am Dutch. Research has shown that mistakes were made on the Dutch side: because of haste and pressure (because supplies are low), and because the buyers didn't fully understand Chinese mask standards, they ordered the wrong thing. China did not intentionally send bad masks, nor was it a manufacturing quality problem.

rorykoehler 7y ago
The CCP don't have a great track record of giving a shit about people at home. What makes you think they care for anything but the opportunity/ability to project more power abroad?
- FooBarWidget 7y ago
  I will also have to disagree on that one. I was born in China, I now live in Europe, and "CCP doesn't give a shit about people" is a bad western stereotype. Of course, define "caring". Does any other government, including democratic ones, truly care about people? Debatable. But what I'm saying is that CCP is not the mass-murdering villain that Hacker News makes it out to be. What about censorship, etc? Yes bad things do happen. Lots of good things also happen. Just like all countries, nothing is perfect. I don't need to remind you of all the human rights violations by the US. The point is: you need to have a more nuanced understanding of the CCP than that of a cartoon villain. Here are some facts: all coronavirus patients got free treatment, free stays in isolation hotels, all Wuhan residents got free food delivered to their homes. In contrast to what happened here in Europe, the CCP took a strong stance to save as many of their own citizen as they can instead of worrying about economic impact. You may not believe me. But take a look at these: "I'm sitting home in Wuhan and eating free vegetables and fish govt sent me and you tell me it hurts my human rights???" -- https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s=20 https://twitter.com/ClaireRChen/status/1241971786062770176?s... New Wuhan Doctor Speaks Out From Ground Zero -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyUHz62Uan8 American and Canadian, living & studying in China, talk about how it is actually like there -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxfSJgQuSI

atonse 7y ago

As it should be. A nation's government should ABSOLUTELY put its citizens over everything else. Not sure what you would have them do instead? What is happening is unfair to some, but the individual governments are doing exactly what they should be doing, valuing their people above all else.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
That's true, but at the same time, it shows the need for a global government to coordinate responses to global problems like this pandemic.
- lgleason 7y ago
  Unless that global government is dominated by Chinese communist government ideology or shows the same judgement as the WHO. Thanks but no thanks. At least with nation states you have some checks and balances. It's also way too much concentrated power for my liking.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    > Unless that global government is dominated by Chinese communist government ideology or shows the same judgement as the WHO. Or like the federal government of the United States. I think we've been having pretty bad luck this year with large and influential organizations, which is a fair counterpoint to a global government proposal.
- lliamander 7y ago
  A global government would have led to a more uniform response, but arguably that's exactly what we don't want in a crisis like this. Each nation was able to react differently, and those different responses have provided us the closest thing we have to controlled experiments. Those experiments have allowed us to understand the spread of this disease better.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago

throw4547 7y ago

> There are some good stories too, especially the sacrifice of the healthcare workers What is good about that? They are terrified to come to work. This heroism stuff is just bullshit so we can shame people who refuse to die. After crisis is over, there will be no financial compensation (overtimes, hazardous environment, no protective equipment).

TeMPOraL 7y ago
> This heroism stuff is just bullshit so we can shame people who refuse to die. Every medical worker who goes into the fray to help save people in this pandemic deserves the highest praise. Every medical worker who doesn't on the grounds that it's extremely unsafe deserves understanding - after all, as the EMS mantra goes, the safety of the rescuer takes priority over the rescue; a sick or dead medical practitioner can't help anyone anymore. Every hospital administrator and every politician who did anything but their absolute best to help ensure a safe working environment for medical workers, and every private company that continued to fleece healthcare, deserve to be called out, shunned and stripped of their possessions. I have doctors in my family, and I worry about their lives every day. Talking with them, I wouldn't blame my Poland's medical staff if they all decided to just pack up and leave. It's an absolute tragedy that medical personnel has to fight an uphill battle just to have a chance of not dying, trying to save people from COVID-19. As much as I can believe the news, it's the same in most of Europe and in the US. I hope that after the dust settles, there will be a reckoning. That people will finally demand that their governments unbreak their healthcare.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > after all, as the EMS mantra goes, the safety of the rescuer takes priority over the rescue Years back when I was trained as a lifeguard, this point was repeatedly emphasized. The first thing you do when you see somebody who needs help is to review the situation for any environmental hazard that could harm you too. It makes no sense to run up to somebody laying on the ground only to slip on the same puddle and crack your skull too. That would only make the situation worse.

ubermon 7y ago

2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. I am curious what will be considered not fake and genuine support? Damned if they and damned if they don’t. AFAIK Dutch issued a article clarify the mistake they made which nobody seems to care. I don’t think any single nation can or will survive this alone unless they want to serve all connections to the world. So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? Not like a short sighted prick?

TeMPOraL 7y ago
> So why it is not in China best interests to offer genuine support when they can? It's definitely in their interest, because in terms of realpolitik, this is their golden opportunity one-up the US on the world stage, possibly even making Europe more aligned with them than with the States.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Turns out everyone is just flailing and drunk on the dance floor, geopolitically.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    I just hope they stay away from their respective red button consoles.
- systemvoltage 7y ago
  All democratic nations should get together and invest in manufacturing. If democracy falls, the treaty would asymetrically punish those that give up rights and freedom of their people.
systemvoltage 7y ago
There are a ton of sources here: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-defective-covid-19-fighting-medical-equipment https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-floods-europe-d... China is trying the same thing that US did for many decades after WWII - to rally up global support through humanitarian aid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid The problem is that the whole thing feels fake for 2 reasons (this is my personal opinion): 1) They are an authoritarian state using soft power for a democratic nation (Italy, Netherlands) - there is a real conflict of interest. 2) It is "pull" rather than "push" when it comes to soft power. You cannot muscle your way through it. As a superpower, you need to influence other nations such that those nations "want" to collaborate and be influenced - leading by example, helping them gain foothold after the catastrophy, long term investments in shared interests, etc. You can't buy your way into it. IMO - China has a branding and goodwill problem :-). You're seeing that in HK. People outside of this propaganda sphere have no trust in the CCP.

kosievdmerwe 7y ago

> 2) China trying to use soft power, but the whole drama feels fake. It is good that they are sending supplies (often faulty and not up to the quality, see dutch story around this) but it doesn't feel genuine. Given that China seems to force countries to pay for PPE the same countries previously donated to China, you're right for being skeptical. https://abc14news.com/2020/04/06/china-forces-italy-to-buy-same-coronavirus-supplies-it-had-donated-to-beijing-a-few-weeks-ago/ https://abc14news.com/2020/04/06/china-forces-italy-to-buy-s...

oefrha 7y ago
I would find this report more reliable if it quotes Italian officials, not Trump administration said this, Pence said that. Basing an entire article on the hearsay of an unrelated third party (that has a less than stellar track record of telling the truth) is just... odd.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  I think people may also be mixing up the two parallel streams of PPEs - there were equipment donations, and at the same time, Chinese manufacturers are selling PPEs like they normally do.
billfruit 7y ago
Some of the PPEs were paid orders placed on Chinese private companies, of course they will have to be paid, since they are being purchased. This is not to be confused with donations of equipment.
FooBarWidget 7y ago
This claim is false. An interview with an Italian official confirms it to be false. https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1247163875339800577?s=20 https://twitter.com/honglilai/status/1247163875339800577?s=2...

twomoretime 7y ago

>US trying to unsuccessfully hoard supplies, issues with the German testing company This is bullshit. At least three of those stories have been quietly retracted. Also you're damn right US should be putting itselt first when in crisis. This has also confirmed the true colors of the media - hypocrites who spent months comparing COVID to the flu and yelling "sinophobia!" For closing the border, before turning on a dime to shit on the president for not being prepared. >When times are great -> Globalism >When times are tough -> Isolation and tribalism When times are great, people become naive and forget that we live in a world with scarce resources and different cultures. When times are tough we are suddenly reminded of the way things actually are, that life is not the utopian vision that some people seem to think.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Yeah being President sucks. Supposed to be well-informed and make correct decisions, not rely on journalist's whining to create policy and take action. But so much easier to just issue sound-bytes and respond to whatever is the issue of the day.
- twomoretime 7y ago
  Everybody screwed up. But journalists have a serious problem with exaggerating and outright falsifying controversies when their party is out of office. That doesn't excuse the actions of Republican party members but it does destroy the credibility of the journalistic establishment. Which has devolved into a total cash grabbing, activist joke. And this happened before Trump.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Agreed. Sometime after web publishing became a thing, and Editors left the equation.

mkbkn 7y ago

> India banning critical medical exports India did allow export for humanitarian purposes (last month).

sbmthakur 7y ago

In times of a global crisis, it makes sense to first take care of those who are near you. Many nations have sent aids to other nations to fight this pandemic, so I won't say it's complete tribalism. More like this situation has shown us one of the downsides of globalism.

lapnitnelav 7y ago

I am particularly saddened by how Europe has handled the situation. Not that I can blame the EU because I'm pretty sure it couldn't have done (as in imposed) anything there and it clearly highlights the deficiencies of being somewhere in the middle. It was a litmus test and it's pretty obvious that we need to take it further rather than competing with each other.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago

Unsurprising. The whole concept of 'state' is a group with its own interests. And not a lot different from the century-old pandemic "Spanish Flu". Essentially civilized reciprocity broke down then too.

surge 7y ago

French seized supplies bound for Britain. Everyone is doing it. You always protect your own citizens first, then once you're in a position of strength, then you help your neighbor. If you're both in a hole, you have to get out of the hole first before you help your friend out, otherwise you're just both going to be in the hole. Put your mask on before assisting other passengers, etc. So many analogies, but this is very basic behavior and expected. Until a country no longer has a shortage themselves, its only when they have an abundance should they give needed supplies away.

chillacy 7y ago
There's got to be a difference between putting on your own mask first and taking your friend's mask...
- threatofrain 7y ago
  But when you don’t make your own masks then the one who does is free to shape their own relations and deals.

mrtweetyhack 7y ago

China is SELLING supplies, not sending.

HeadsUpHigh 7y ago

>India banning critical medical exports At this point I need to mention this: The USA has managed to successfully enforce bogus patents of drugs that should be generics in the EU. So instead of producing them at home we import them from India. The ICU I did my rotation on would be impossible to work without drugs produced in India.

bakul 7y ago

You forgot: 5) Rich nations hoovering up all coronavirus related supplies leaving poor nations precious little. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/world/coronavirus-equipment-rich-poor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/world/coronavirus-equipme... "Scientists in Africa and Latin America have been told by manufacturers that orders for vital testing kits cannot be filled for months, because the supply chain is in upheaval and almost everything they produce is going to America or Europe."