11 ms·

Airlines want to cancel rule requiring them to refund fares for canceled flights

218 points by hhs 7y ago

thaumasiotes 7y ago
Is this an actual airline-specific regulation? I would expect the ordinary law of contracts to already provide that, when one party unilaterally cancels a contract, they don't get to keep the consideration from the other party.
- JamesBarney 7y ago
  Usually it would depend on what the contract says. For instance my gym went out of business, but hidden in the contract it was written they could transfer my membership to any other gym within 10 miles of the gym. And I was forced to pay a cancellation fee of several month to get out of it.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    Contracts that "hide" things in them tend to get invalidated by the court if you refuse to pay. Courts take a dim view of attempts to trick consumers. If you didn't read the contract before you signed it, though, next time you should. When I bought a house, they gave me a stack of paper about half an inch high to read, including a document for me to sign that said "I have read and understand the documents." So I sat there with the agent and read every word of it. She was clearly quite irritated with me "wasting her time" by reading it, but too bad for her. A couple issues I was particularly interested in was what happens if I default on the mortgage, and what happens if I prepay the loan. BTW, I recommend reading the fitness club contracts first. They are negotiable, but if you don't read them you won't know what to negotiate, and will be paying the "sucker price".
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Contracts that "hide" things in them tend to get invalidated by the court if you refuse to pay. Which court is that? The one that finally hears your case three years after the gym has reported the debt to the credit bureaus and ruined your credit?
      - samatman 7y ago
        Small claims court doesn't take three years, doesn't allow counsel, comes to decisions quickly, and best of all: Small claims judgements are accepted as dispute resolution by all credit reporting agencies.
        throwawayjava 7y ago
        Seriously, use your small claims court! I've used small claims 4 times now. Each time, I spent less time with the court than I did with customer service prior to the court. Lesson learned. I ask customer service once, in plain english, on a recorded line. If they don't resolve it at that opportunity, I just go to small claims.
    - JamesBarney 7y ago
      I read the clause and interpreted it as "company can move down the street" not close down and sell my membership.
United857 7y ago
If the airlines really need the money to survive then they should treat it as a loan and when it's over refund the customers plus interest.
rafiki6 7y ago
Is it really that bad if some airlines fail? That whole industry really needs to be restarted IMO. Their assets would be purchased at a major discount by others who would likely create new airlines, or you might potentially see the healthiest ones consolidate the market (which wouldn't be the best outcome). Also, why isn't there consideration for nationalization of one of these failed airlines rather than giving them tax payer money even as a loan?
- the_reformation 7y ago
  This essentially happened after 9/11. We saw broad consolidation into the Big Three. The argument was that the restructuring meant we'd finally have an air industry with structurally bigger margins. This was sorta true- during a bull market. Ultimately, I think large scale personal air travel (or mass transit in general) isn't feasible in all economic climates. By definition, it's high upfront costs and low margins. The only airlines who seem to always make it work are regional and shuttles between high-income cities (Alaska, JetBlue.) As for why don't we just nationalize them, I'd say we de facto have already. Airlines know bankruptcy-level downside is covered by the government. It's not all bad though; there's an argument to be made that this system is pareto efficient. During bull times, you want private operators pushing for network expansions and price efficiencies, even if that means levering up. But these are a de facto utility, so having the government pinch their nose and cover the downside in a bear market is an efficient use of dollars. You could try and put in regulation to force them to reserve X months (years isn't realistic) of operation costs, but you can't get around the basic unit economics of the problem: planes are expensive, even if they're grounded and don't make money if they can't fly.
  - rafiki6 7y ago
    I like that you mentioned they're a de facto utility. Utilities tend to also be natural monopolies. They usually tend to be government owned and operate at arms length. They also tend to be heavily heavily regulated.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    > As for why don't we just nationalize them Washington State nationalized the ferries, and they now run at massive losses a system that used to run at a profit.
HashThis 7y ago
We paid for that product. If they can't deliver the service, we are owed our money back. This would be fraud. Congress sells out the american people to corporations on these things. If revolution happens in the USA, it will be because congress and corporations pull this kind of corruption.
- a3n 7y ago
  No, if revolution happens in the USA it will be because politicians went too far in dividing us.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Not as long as there is sports on tv and McDonalds is open. Oh, wait.
    - a3n 7y ago
      Bread and circus.
    - nostromo 7y ago
      Pot, liquor stores, and vape shops were all deemed essential businesses in Washington State. Turns out the true opiate of the people are... well, opiates and other drugs.
      - Analemma_ 7y ago
        This is an ignorant comment; there are entirely legitimate reasons why those stores are still open. Alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you, or at least put you in the hospital, and having to hospitalize a bunch of alcoholics is the last thing the system needs right now. People also use cannabis as a safer alternative to pain relief than actual opiates.
        reaperducer 7y ago
        You missed one. What is the entirely legitimate reason why vape stores should be open?
hedora 7y ago
Issue a chargeback.
- draw_down 7y ago
  Yeah, chargeback time. I once had a car rental agency refuse to give me the car I had reserved and paid for, then refuse to give me a refund for the money I had paid ahead of time. Just charge them back when they pull this crap.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  Unfortunately, that’s a good way to get banned from a service
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Why would you want to continue doing business with a company that screws you over to the point where you need to chargeback? By that point, you're burning the bridge and should be totally OK with it.
ping_pong 7y ago
That's a great way to put themselves out of business. If they don't want to play a fair game, you can well be assured that people will stop using their products as much as they could be.
- moate 7y ago
  If only that were the case. Airlines and Broadband companies are constantly getting terrible reviews because they offer such terrible quality customer service. But what the fuck are you gonna do, rig up your own ISP or charter a boat across the Atlantic? No, you're going to get reamed in the ass and keep living in the 21st century. These industries "fail" because they're designed to fail! Nobody wants to admit it, but you need a public option on this shit or else people will just keep being forced to publicly subsidize a select group of private enterprises over and over when shit goes tits up.
  - a3n 7y ago
    > But what the fuck are you gonna do, rig up your own ISP or charter a boat across the Atlantic? No, you're going to get reamed in the ass and keep living in the 21st century. Or we can globally live within our means. It is apparently barely sustainable for people to be able to fly anywhere on a whim and a salary. If the globe being able to do this means that airlines must operate at constant arm's reach of bankruptcy and bailout, then we're living beyond our global means and society is ill-structured.
- jariel 7y ago
  "If they don't want to play a fair game," The government interfering existentially to shut down their business isn't quite 'fair game'. Put another way, the government could ban travel, in which case, the airlines could theoretically offer the flight, but the consumer would have to then cancel their ticket and pay a charge, or not get anything back. Point being the government interference could run both ways. So it's going to be a big problem clearing all of this up.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  That's a great way to put themselves out of business. If they don't want to play a fair game, you can well be assured that people will stop using their products as much as they could be. If there was real airline competition, sure. But there aren't a half dozen airlines flying between most cities. There are two, if you're lucky. Or one for the majority of city pairs in the United States.
arkadiyt 7y ago
There are certain industries like airline (but also healthcare, telecom, etc) that just make a living out of screwing over consumers in any way possible. It is so exhausting to deal with - I don't have the energy to dispute every single time a company pulls one of these stunts to fight for myself to get the baseline level of not being treated like trash. This is exactly what consumer protection agencies and regulations and other laws are meant to protect against, but these institutions are failing us daily.
- halfdan 7y ago
  These are all essential services that the government should be providing from taxpayer money. Instead many countries have chosen to privatise large parts of their infrastructure and essential services - the market does not regulate itself here, it is one that needs to be controlled or simply run by the government.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    If you're in California, what are your thoughts on how the California DMV is run? Would you want your air travel experience to be similar?
    - TigeriusKirk 7y ago
      I've had nothing but excellent service in every one of my interactions with the California DMV. If every company I interacted with lived up to their standard I'd be thrilled.
    - ajna91 7y ago
      Why not compare it to the post office, or NASA?
      - smabie 7y ago
        The post office isn't really similar to the DMV or NASA. While it's not a private entity, it's supposed to be run like a corporation, in some ways similar to Amtrak. USPS is okay I guess, but Amtrak sure does suck.
Shivetya 7y ago
Simple rule. No assistance unless they offer refunds. No assistance unless they stop any stock buy back programs, end all executive bonuses, and they must pay back and assistance before resuming either. Sorry airlines, but the company I work for which is quite large has funds to sustain interruptions because you just don't do business otherwise. scrap bonuses, merit increases, all unnecessary expenses, and they borrow, and if you cannot then you were not preparing yourself for much of anything except good times.
- bluedino 7y ago
  Who's going to work for airlines without bonuses etc?
  - op00to 7y ago
    Almost all workers in America have rarely if ever seen a “bonus”. They airline execs will get over it.
    - smabie 7y ago
      Almost all? I would guess that almost everyone (who works) has gotten a bonus at least once, many every year.
      - effingwewt 7y ago
        This is beyond out of touch. Most people truly have never seen a bonus, or if they have it was a $20 McDonald's gift card. Until working in tech I never received a bonus, even as a 'necessary' HVAC service technician making decent money. Either way it's hard to reconcile C level bonuses with a free turkey every Thanksgiving. Truly we need to scrap all their bonuses a d parachutes. The entire C level compensation model seems made for Moral Hazard.
nilram 7y ago
Over the last decade, airlines spent 96% of their free cash flow buying back stock[1]. This improves the stock value for investors (and executives). Rather than requesting bailouts and rule changes, imo they should be selling that stock to raise capital. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airli...
- jariel 7y ago
  "This improves the stock value for investors" Not really. A stock buyback is essentially the same thing as the company parking the money in the bank. It's almost the same financial thing. Shareholders 'own' the $1 in the company's bank, or they 'own' it if it's paid back to shareholders. Stock buybacks or dividend payouts should basically have a null effect on the value of the company. They are kind of 'neutral' exercises. Edit: 'null value' obviously taking into consideration fewer shares, i.e. if the company buys shares from the market at market prices, it shouldn't directly affect the value of the other shares it's financially neutral.
  - kdamica 7y ago
    A buyback has the added effect of reducing the number of shares, increasing their Earnings per Share (EPS). Since EPS is a widely-used metric for valuing a company, it's not quite the same as a dividend.
    - jariel 7y ago
      In a 'perfect' buyback which was spread across all investors equally -> it's neutral. (Percentage ownership remains the same, cash was transferred to investors) That it won't ever exactly happen that way means some will win/lose depending on their individual situation, but it should be something approaching a wash on average. Again - stock buybacks are not 'windfalls' for investors it's just a normal part of financial operation. The question of how much cash on hand certain businesses should have to have ... is a separate issue. If the government wants to regulate this like they do banks, well, that's an idea, but I don't think it's the best one, but spurning businesses because they did a buyback last year and are otherwise operating normally is definitely not the right approach.
a3n 7y ago
> "The key element for us is to avoid running out of cash so refunding the canceled ticket for us is almost unbearable financially speaking," IATA Director General Alexandre De Juniac said. I think he just said that it's too financially risky for a consumer to book a flight, lest they be forced to have their ticket converted to an unsecured loan, "secured" with something that they didn't want (a flight next year) that may expire anyway. They're selling you a gift card. I'm surprised that people are still flying in closed up metal tubes during this pandemic. If anything the airlines should be giving discounts to lure consumers, and even that is morally questionable. Flights at this point should be freight or emergency only, for national medical needs and repatriation.
selimthegrim 7y ago
The world's smallest violin is playing for Spirit Airlines right now.
- cultus 7y ago
  Flew them once. If I never do it again it'll be too soon.
  - HarryHirsch 7y ago
    They've got an all-Airbus fleet. They will be an excellent choice to avoid flying 737-MAX.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      Spirit puts the "bus" in Airbus. Not really related, but it turns out that calling your American Airlines pilot neighbor a "sky bus driver" is a good way to get kicked out of his Christmas party, even if you were mildly drunk and maybe half kidding.
    - cultus 7y ago
      I think I have a greater risk of dying from deep vein thrombosis in their cramped seats. I'd roll the dice on a 737-MAX any day of the week.
olliej 7y ago
Why don't they have savings to get them through unexpected financial problems? Oh right: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airli... We can't be held responsible for their own financial mismanagement - likewise they should not be eligible for any bailout funds - or they can sell their stock on the market to raise funds.
- cultus 7y ago
  We've decided as a society that it is acceptable to have massive oligopolistic too-big-to-fail corporations in control of critical sectors. We have no choice but to bail them out.
  - olliej 7y ago
    we can ensure they don't fail by taking ownership - if they're unwilling to raise funds by selling an equity stake, on the market or otherwise, they can declare bankruptcy and be bought then. Many many years ago Air New Zealand essentially went bankrupt (after it had been privatized) so the NZ gov bought it out. Then a few decades later privatized it again at a profit. Which is the evidence that this can be done.
    - cultus 7y ago
      Sure, but there's no political will to do that, since the elites in charge are the ones who benefit from these policies.
      - jessaustin 7y ago
        This seems to contradict your "We've decided..." upthread.
        cultus 7y ago
        Sorry, by "We" I did mean people who make actual decisions, although we all are to blame partially for not pushing back.
smoyer 7y ago
I don't feel bad for them ... they used the previous bailout to buy back their stock and then spent their profits to buy back more. Maybe they should put some of those shares back on the market if they need money?
- smabie 7y ago
  I don't think anyone wants them.
  - smoyer 7y ago
    That's a very good point ... I wouldn't be long on restaurants at the moment either. The difference is that I think we'll return to restaurants once COVID-19 isn't a threat. I think that our "practice" at telecommuting has fundamentally changed business travel (we need it much less than we thought we did) and that the current contraction in air travel is unlikely to completely re-expand. Pleasure travel is different and it remains to be seen how quickly people will "trust" being in public again.
xivzgrev 7y ago
If you are unable to provide a service people paid for, then you give them their money back. It's pretty simple. You can give people an option to leave as credit (e.g., we'll give you $400 of credit instead of a $300 refund) but it should be just that - an option.
ar_lan 7y ago
I'm STILL waiting for United (or Expedia) to send me a refund after 2 weeks. I had a cancelled international flight and neither is sending me my refund. I don't think many of us have just thousands of dollars to just not get back.
Rafuino 7y ago
I have three flights booked through July with United, and I'm likely going to have to cancel all three of them without a refund. Another rub is that they've changed the flight schedules on all my flights 4x now since February, and there is no option to view the original schedule of my flights. I believe a few of my trips have been ruined by these schedule changes (e.g. won't be able to make it for dinner with friends, or now can't get back before an ungodly hour in the early AM), but I can't confirm the original schedules...
- mrep 7y ago
  If they changed it by like 2 hours or more, you are entitled to a refund. Call them. I had a flight scheduled for tomorrow that got changed and I called and got a refund for it (I'm not even in the state so i lucked out there as I was planning on cancelling it myself). You can also wait and see if they cancel it. I had 2 more flights this week and they both got cancelled recently and I'm getting refunds. They are probably just waiting until a week before like it was for me in the hopes that people cancel themselves for the BS travel vouchers.
  - Rafuino 7y ago
    FYI, United told me it's 6 hours or more per flight. They changed mine by 4.5 hours, so no dice on a refund.
monksy 7y ago
We should make them refund above how much they charged as a fee to them. It's kind of funny when the shoe is on the other foot. They're upset when they're required to follow the law. They want to sell nothing but refundable tickets which they can oversell, but the minute they can't meet their obligation they're crying to the government.
wdb 7y ago
I don't agree with bailouts or rule changes for airlines. Why should they get rule changes, while I am a simple citizen can't get jobseekers allowance (too much savings) or break on paying rent during this time?
bovermyer 7y ago
I'm OK with airlines being allowed to never refund fares for cancelled flights on one condition: Every time a flight is cancelled, the CEO and every manager below him/her is required to commit ritual suicide.
ck2 7y ago
This sounds a lot like all the gym memberships that suddenly became impossible to cancel (seriously). Since when is keeping money for doing absolutely nothing as promised the American way?
jdkee 7y ago
No bailouts for the airlines.
objektif 7y ago
Is there anybody who is still sympathetic to airlines?
rapjr9 7y ago
Hey, let the market decide. If they don't give refunds and their competitors do, then they go out of business.
csomar 7y ago
I have five flights booked through Lufthansa (2 turned out to be United) for a US flight which is kinda expensive. It's a non-refundable, so fair is fair. The thing that did upset me the most is that their website mentions that I can rebook now. I do call their, rather, horrible consumer service. They suggest that I should go to their office so that I can change the booking. That's, obviously, not possible because of the confinement order. Now I rechecked their website and it seems that I might be able to get a voucher for my ticket value that will be valid until 31 August. They must be joking as I don't think flights will be open (in any meaningful capacity) until 2021 or late 2020. My sister had Turkish tickets (non-refundable) and she was able to get miles for them.
- mrep 7y ago
  I would wait. I had 3 flights for this week and 2 got cancelled and 1 got changed. I got refunds on all of them but I had to wait until about a week before the flight for them to tell me about the cancellations and the flight time change refund info came about a week before too. They are unsurprisingly pushing the vouchers until the last minute.
fredthomsen 7y ago
If the vouchers were good for 10 years I might be ok with it
odysseus 7y ago
From the article: > "But instead of honoring their obligation to give refunds, many airlines have only been offering vouchers and credits for future travel, which customers often must use before the end of the year." This happened to me with Alaska Air on a nonrefundable fare, but I have to use the credit 1 year from the date of cancellation, which in my case would be around March of 2021. My hope is a vaccine will be available by then, or at least by the time I actually fly in 2021. I originally purchased the tickets with another credit that expired at the end of April 2020. If you try to cancel on Alaska's web site, before you press submit, you have to check a box that says "By cancelling this flight online, I agree to FORFEIT all credits/vouchers I used to purchase the flight." That's when I called a representative and explained the situation - and had a great experience - all credits refunded and extended for another year. Just took one 15 minute call. Happy to fly Alaska again.
awaythrower 7y ago
So the financial equivalent of being beaten and dragged off a plane. Airlines couldn't be anymore customer-hostile unless they needle behind the ear, shrink-wrapped people and threw them into piles like rolls of carpet.
diebeforei485 7y ago
I think this is okay, provided they issue a cash-value voucher that does not expire (or expires at least 2 years out). There shouldn't be any nonsense about things being locked to the same region or destination because people may no longer be interested in going to the same place in the future, plus for international trips they may not be eligible for a visa in the future if the purpose of the trip no longer exists. To be even better, it should not be locked to the same person either. If I have no use to fly (example) Hawaiian Airlines, I should be able to sell that voucher to others.
vinni2 7y ago
I thought most airlines are not giving refund due to coronavirus cancellations but rather like a voucher or an option to rebook.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- occz 7y ago
  They are trying their very hardest to not follow the law, but they are legally obligated to provide refunds (at least in the EU).
  - vinni2 7y ago
    I am in the EU and my recent trips were cancelled and the airline only offered a voucher should I contest that and ask for a full refund?
  - mrep 7y ago
    Same in the US. I had 3 flights scheduled for this week and they were offering me the shitty vouchers if i cancelled myself but lo and behold, a week before each one they informed me they were cancelled or rescheduled and I can get an actual cash refund.
Cantbekhan 7y ago
Why don't they just sell some airplanes to covert the refund costs?
- iolo 7y ago
  I imagine there is a lack of buyers in the current economic climate. I doubt any airline is currently expanding and in need of extra planes.
hurricanetc 7y ago
How about we loan them the money at 16% interest, which is about the average interest rate for an airline credit card. And the loans go to the front of the line in any bankruptcy proceedings. Then I’m okay with allowing them to make their own silly rules.

218 points by hhs 7y ago

Is this an actual airline-specific regulation? I would expect the ordinary law of contracts to already provide that, when one party unilaterally cancels a contract, they don't get to keep the consideration from the other party.

JamesBarney 7y ago
Usually it would depend on what the contract says. For instance my gym went out of business, but hidden in the contract it was written they could transfer my membership to any other gym within 10 miles of the gym. And I was forced to pay a cancellation fee of several month to get out of it.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Contracts that "hide" things in them tend to get invalidated by the court if you refuse to pay. Courts take a dim view of attempts to trick consumers. If you didn't read the contract before you signed it, though, next time you should. When I bought a house, they gave me a stack of paper about half an inch high to read, including a document for me to sign that said "I have read and understand the documents." So I sat there with the agent and read every word of it. She was clearly quite irritated with me "wasting her time" by reading it, but too bad for her. A couple issues I was particularly interested in was what happens if I default on the mortgage, and what happens if I prepay the loan. BTW, I recommend reading the fitness club contracts first. They are negotiable, but if you don't read them you won't know what to negotiate, and will be paying the "sucker price".
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Contracts that "hide" things in them tend to get invalidated by the court if you refuse to pay. Which court is that? The one that finally hears your case three years after the gym has reported the debt to the credit bureaus and ruined your credit?
    - samatman 7y ago
      Small claims court doesn't take three years, doesn't allow counsel, comes to decisions quickly, and best of all: Small claims judgements are accepted as dispute resolution by all credit reporting agencies.
      - throwawayjava 7y ago
        Seriously, use your small claims court! I've used small claims 4 times now. Each time, I spent less time with the court than I did with customer service prior to the court. Lesson learned. I ask customer service once, in plain english, on a recorded line. If they don't resolve it at that opportunity, I just go to small claims.
  - JamesBarney 7y ago
    I read the clause and interpreted it as "company can move down the street" not close down and sell my membership.

United857 7y ago

If the airlines really need the money to survive then they should treat it as a loan and when it's over refund the customers plus interest.

rafiki6 7y ago

Is it really that bad if some airlines fail? That whole industry really needs to be restarted IMO. Their assets would be purchased at a major discount by others who would likely create new airlines, or you might potentially see the healthiest ones consolidate the market (which wouldn't be the best outcome). Also, why isn't there consideration for nationalization of one of these failed airlines rather than giving them tax payer money even as a loan?

the_reformation 7y ago
This essentially happened after 9/11. We saw broad consolidation into the Big Three. The argument was that the restructuring meant we'd finally have an air industry with structurally bigger margins. This was sorta true- during a bull market. Ultimately, I think large scale personal air travel (or mass transit in general) isn't feasible in all economic climates. By definition, it's high upfront costs and low margins. The only airlines who seem to always make it work are regional and shuttles between high-income cities (Alaska, JetBlue.) As for why don't we just nationalize them, I'd say we de facto have already. Airlines know bankruptcy-level downside is covered by the government. It's not all bad though; there's an argument to be made that this system is pareto efficient. During bull times, you want private operators pushing for network expansions and price efficiencies, even if that means levering up. But these are a de facto utility, so having the government pinch their nose and cover the downside in a bear market is an efficient use of dollars. You could try and put in regulation to force them to reserve X months (years isn't realistic) of operation costs, but you can't get around the basic unit economics of the problem: planes are expensive, even if they're grounded and don't make money if they can't fly.
- rafiki6 7y ago
  I like that you mentioned they're a de facto utility. Utilities tend to also be natural monopolies. They usually tend to be government owned and operate at arms length. They also tend to be heavily heavily regulated.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  > As for why don't we just nationalize them Washington State nationalized the ferries, and they now run at massive losses a system that used to run at a profit.

HashThis 7y ago

We paid for that product. If they can't deliver the service, we are owed our money back. This would be fraud. Congress sells out the american people to corporations on these things. If revolution happens in the USA, it will be because congress and corporations pull this kind of corruption.

a3n 7y ago
No, if revolution happens in the USA it will be because politicians went too far in dividing us.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Not as long as there is sports on tv and McDonalds is open. Oh, wait.
  - a3n 7y ago
    Bread and circus.
  - nostromo 7y ago
    Pot, liquor stores, and vape shops were all deemed essential businesses in Washington State. Turns out the true opiate of the people are... well, opiates and other drugs.
    - Analemma_ 7y ago
      This is an ignorant comment; there are entirely legitimate reasons why those stores are still open. Alcohol withdrawal can actually kill you, or at least put you in the hospital, and having to hospitalize a bunch of alcoholics is the last thing the system needs right now. People also use cannabis as a safer alternative to pain relief than actual opiates.
      - reaperducer 7y ago
        You missed one. What is the entirely legitimate reason why vape stores should be open?

hedora 7y ago

Issue a chargeback.

draw_down 7y ago
Yeah, chargeback time. I once had a car rental agency refuse to give me the car I had reserved and paid for, then refuse to give me a refund for the money I had paid ahead of time. Just charge them back when they pull this crap.
colejohnson66 7y ago
Unfortunately, that’s a good way to get banned from a service
- ryandrake 7y ago
  Why would you want to continue doing business with a company that screws you over to the point where you need to chargeback? By that point, you're burning the bridge and should be totally OK with it.

ping_pong 7y ago

That's a great way to put themselves out of business. If they don't want to play a fair game, you can well be assured that people will stop using their products as much as they could be.

moate 7y ago
If only that were the case. Airlines and Broadband companies are constantly getting terrible reviews because they offer such terrible quality customer service. But what the fuck are you gonna do, rig up your own ISP or charter a boat across the Atlantic? No, you're going to get reamed in the ass and keep living in the 21st century. These industries "fail" because they're designed to fail! Nobody wants to admit it, but you need a public option on this shit or else people will just keep being forced to publicly subsidize a select group of private enterprises over and over when shit goes tits up.
- a3n 7y ago
  > But what the fuck are you gonna do, rig up your own ISP or charter a boat across the Atlantic? No, you're going to get reamed in the ass and keep living in the 21st century. Or we can globally live within our means. It is apparently barely sustainable for people to be able to fly anywhere on a whim and a salary. If the globe being able to do this means that airlines must operate at constant arm's reach of bankruptcy and bailout, then we're living beyond our global means and society is ill-structured.
jariel 7y ago
"If they don't want to play a fair game," The government interfering existentially to shut down their business isn't quite 'fair game'. Put another way, the government could ban travel, in which case, the airlines could theoretically offer the flight, but the consumer would have to then cancel their ticket and pay a charge, or not get anything back. Point being the government interference could run both ways. So it's going to be a big problem clearing all of this up.
reaperducer 7y ago
That's a great way to put themselves out of business. If they don't want to play a fair game, you can well be assured that people will stop using their products as much as they could be. If there was real airline competition, sure. But there aren't a half dozen airlines flying between most cities. There are two, if you're lucky. Or one for the majority of city pairs in the United States.

arkadiyt 7y ago

There are certain industries like airline (but also healthcare, telecom, etc) that just make a living out of screwing over consumers in any way possible. It is so exhausting to deal with - I don't have the energy to dispute every single time a company pulls one of these stunts to fight for myself to get the baseline level of not being treated like trash. This is exactly what consumer protection agencies and regulations and other laws are meant to protect against, but these institutions are failing us daily.

halfdan 7y ago
These are all essential services that the government should be providing from taxpayer money. Instead many countries have chosen to privatise large parts of their infrastructure and essential services - the market does not regulate itself here, it is one that needs to be controlled or simply run by the government.
- malandrew 7y ago
  If you're in California, what are your thoughts on how the California DMV is run? Would you want your air travel experience to be similar?
  - TigeriusKirk 7y ago
    I've had nothing but excellent service in every one of my interactions with the California DMV. If every company I interacted with lived up to their standard I'd be thrilled.
  - ajna91 7y ago
    Why not compare it to the post office, or NASA?
    - smabie 7y ago
      The post office isn't really similar to the DMV or NASA. While it's not a private entity, it's supposed to be run like a corporation, in some ways similar to Amtrak. USPS is okay I guess, but Amtrak sure does suck.

Shivetya 7y ago

Simple rule. No assistance unless they offer refunds. No assistance unless they stop any stock buy back programs, end all executive bonuses, and they must pay back and assistance before resuming either. Sorry airlines, but the company I work for which is quite large has funds to sustain interruptions because you just don't do business otherwise. scrap bonuses, merit increases, all unnecessary expenses, and they borrow, and if you cannot then you were not preparing yourself for much of anything except good times.

bluedino 7y ago
Who's going to work for airlines without bonuses etc?
- op00to 7y ago
  Almost all workers in America have rarely if ever seen a “bonus”. They airline execs will get over it.
  - smabie 7y ago
    Almost all? I would guess that almost everyone (who works) has gotten a bonus at least once, many every year.
    - effingwewt 7y ago
      This is beyond out of touch. Most people truly have never seen a bonus, or if they have it was a $20 McDonald's gift card. Until working in tech I never received a bonus, even as a 'necessary' HVAC service technician making decent money. Either way it's hard to reconcile C level bonuses with a free turkey every Thanksgiving. Truly we need to scrap all their bonuses a d parachutes. The entire C level compensation model seems made for Moral Hazard.

nilram 7y ago

Over the last decade, airlines spent 96% of their free cash flow buying back stock[1]. This improves the stock value for investors (and executives). Rather than requesting bailouts and rule changes, imo they should be selling that stock to raise capital. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airli...

jariel 7y ago
"This improves the stock value for investors" Not really. A stock buyback is essentially the same thing as the company parking the money in the bank. It's almost the same financial thing. Shareholders 'own' the $1 in the company's bank, or they 'own' it if it's paid back to shareholders. Stock buybacks or dividend payouts should basically have a null effect on the value of the company. They are kind of 'neutral' exercises. Edit: 'null value' obviously taking into consideration fewer shares, i.e. if the company buys shares from the market at market prices, it shouldn't directly affect the value of the other shares it's financially neutral.
- kdamica 7y ago
  A buyback has the added effect of reducing the number of shares, increasing their Earnings per Share (EPS). Since EPS is a widely-used metric for valuing a company, it's not quite the same as a dividend.
  - jariel 7y ago
    In a 'perfect' buyback which was spread across all investors equally -> it's neutral. (Percentage ownership remains the same, cash was transferred to investors) That it won't ever exactly happen that way means some will win/lose depending on their individual situation, but it should be something approaching a wash on average. Again - stock buybacks are not 'windfalls' for investors it's just a normal part of financial operation. The question of how much cash on hand certain businesses should have to have ... is a separate issue. If the government wants to regulate this like they do banks, well, that's an idea, but I don't think it's the best one, but spurning businesses because they did a buyback last year and are otherwise operating normally is definitely not the right approach.

a3n 7y ago

> "The key element for us is to avoid running out of cash so refunding the canceled ticket for us is almost unbearable financially speaking," IATA Director General Alexandre De Juniac said. I think he just said that it's too financially risky for a consumer to book a flight, lest they be forced to have their ticket converted to an unsecured loan, "secured" with something that they didn't want (a flight next year) that may expire anyway. They're selling you a gift card. I'm surprised that people are still flying in closed up metal tubes during this pandemic. If anything the airlines should be giving discounts to lure consumers, and even that is morally questionable. Flights at this point should be freight or emergency only, for national medical needs and repatriation.

selimthegrim 7y ago

The world's smallest violin is playing for Spirit Airlines right now.

cultus 7y ago
Flew them once. If I never do it again it'll be too soon.
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  They've got an all-Airbus fleet. They will be an excellent choice to avoid flying 737-MAX.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    Spirit puts the "bus" in Airbus. Not really related, but it turns out that calling your American Airlines pilot neighbor a "sky bus driver" is a good way to get kicked out of his Christmas party, even if you were mildly drunk and maybe half kidding.
  - cultus 7y ago
    I think I have a greater risk of dying from deep vein thrombosis in their cramped seats. I'd roll the dice on a 737-MAX any day of the week.

olliej 7y ago

Why don't they have savings to get them through unexpected financial problems? Oh right: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airlines-spent-96-of-free-cash-flow-on-buybacks-chart https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-16/u-s-airli... We can't be held responsible for their own financial mismanagement - likewise they should not be eligible for any bailout funds - or they can sell their stock on the market to raise funds.

cultus 7y ago
We've decided as a society that it is acceptable to have massive oligopolistic too-big-to-fail corporations in control of critical sectors. We have no choice but to bail them out.
- olliej 7y ago
  we can ensure they don't fail by taking ownership - if they're unwilling to raise funds by selling an equity stake, on the market or otherwise, they can declare bankruptcy and be bought then. Many many years ago Air New Zealand essentially went bankrupt (after it had been privatized) so the NZ gov bought it out. Then a few decades later privatized it again at a profit. Which is the evidence that this can be done.
  - cultus 7y ago
    Sure, but there's no political will to do that, since the elites in charge are the ones who benefit from these policies.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      This seems to contradict your "We've decided..." upthread.
      - cultus 7y ago
        Sorry, by "We" I did mean people who make actual decisions, although we all are to blame partially for not pushing back.

smoyer 7y ago

I don't feel bad for them ... they used the previous bailout to buy back their stock and then spent their profits to buy back more. Maybe they should put some of those shares back on the market if they need money?

smabie 7y ago
I don't think anyone wants them.
- smoyer 7y ago
  That's a very good point ... I wouldn't be long on restaurants at the moment either. The difference is that I think we'll return to restaurants once COVID-19 isn't a threat. I think that our "practice" at telecommuting has fundamentally changed business travel (we need it much less than we thought we did) and that the current contraction in air travel is unlikely to completely re-expand. Pleasure travel is different and it remains to be seen how quickly people will "trust" being in public again.

xivzgrev 7y ago

If you are unable to provide a service people paid for, then you give them their money back. It's pretty simple. You can give people an option to leave as credit (e.g., we'll give you $400 of credit instead of a $300 refund) but it should be just that - an option.

ar_lan 7y ago

I'm STILL waiting for United (or Expedia) to send me a refund after 2 weeks. I had a cancelled international flight and neither is sending me my refund. I don't think many of us have just thousands of dollars to just not get back.

Rafuino 7y ago

I have three flights booked through July with United, and I'm likely going to have to cancel all three of them without a refund. Another rub is that they've changed the flight schedules on all my flights 4x now since February, and there is no option to view the original schedule of my flights. I believe a few of my trips have been ruined by these schedule changes (e.g. won't be able to make it for dinner with friends, or now can't get back before an ungodly hour in the early AM), but I can't confirm the original schedules...

mrep 7y ago
If they changed it by like 2 hours or more, you are entitled to a refund. Call them. I had a flight scheduled for tomorrow that got changed and I called and got a refund for it (I'm not even in the state so i lucked out there as I was planning on cancelling it myself). You can also wait and see if they cancel it. I had 2 more flights this week and they both got cancelled recently and I'm getting refunds. They are probably just waiting until a week before like it was for me in the hopes that people cancel themselves for the BS travel vouchers.
- Rafuino 7y ago
  FYI, United told me it's 6 hours or more per flight. They changed mine by 4.5 hours, so no dice on a refund.

monksy 7y ago

We should make them refund above how much they charged as a fee to them. It's kind of funny when the shoe is on the other foot. They're upset when they're required to follow the law. They want to sell nothing but refundable tickets which they can oversell, but the minute they can't meet their obligation they're crying to the government.

wdb 7y ago

I don't agree with bailouts or rule changes for airlines. Why should they get rule changes, while I am a simple citizen can't get jobseekers allowance (too much savings) or break on paying rent during this time?

bovermyer 7y ago

I'm OK with airlines being allowed to never refund fares for cancelled flights on one condition: Every time a flight is cancelled, the CEO and every manager below him/her is required to commit ritual suicide.

ck2 7y ago

This sounds a lot like all the gym memberships that suddenly became impossible to cancel (seriously). Since when is keeping money for doing absolutely nothing as promised the American way?

jdkee 7y ago

No bailouts for the airlines.

objektif 7y ago

Is there anybody who is still sympathetic to airlines?

rapjr9 7y ago

Hey, let the market decide. If they don't give refunds and their competitors do, then they go out of business.

csomar 7y ago

I have five flights booked through Lufthansa (2 turned out to be United) for a US flight which is kinda expensive. It's a non-refundable, so fair is fair. The thing that did upset me the most is that their website mentions that I can rebook now. I do call their, rather, horrible consumer service. They suggest that I should go to their office so that I can change the booking. That's, obviously, not possible because of the confinement order. Now I rechecked their website and it seems that I might be able to get a voucher for my ticket value that will be valid until 31 August. They must be joking as I don't think flights will be open (in any meaningful capacity) until 2021 or late 2020. My sister had Turkish tickets (non-refundable) and she was able to get miles for them.

mrep 7y ago
I would wait. I had 3 flights for this week and 2 got cancelled and 1 got changed. I got refunds on all of them but I had to wait until about a week before the flight for them to tell me about the cancellations and the flight time change refund info came about a week before too. They are unsurprisingly pushing the vouchers until the last minute.

fredthomsen 7y ago

If the vouchers were good for 10 years I might be ok with it

odysseus 7y ago

From the article: > "But instead of honoring their obligation to give refunds, many airlines have only been offering vouchers and credits for future travel, which customers often must use before the end of the year." This happened to me with Alaska Air on a nonrefundable fare, but I have to use the credit 1 year from the date of cancellation, which in my case would be around March of 2021. My hope is a vaccine will be available by then, or at least by the time I actually fly in 2021. I originally purchased the tickets with another credit that expired at the end of April 2020. If you try to cancel on Alaska's web site, before you press submit, you have to check a box that says "By cancelling this flight online, I agree to FORFEIT all credits/vouchers I used to purchase the flight." That's when I called a representative and explained the situation - and had a great experience - all credits refunded and extended for another year. Just took one 15 minute call. Happy to fly Alaska again.

awaythrower 7y ago

So the financial equivalent of being beaten and dragged off a plane. Airlines couldn't be anymore customer-hostile unless they needle behind the ear, shrink-wrapped people and threw them into piles like rolls of carpet.

diebeforei485 7y ago

I think this is okay, provided they issue a cash-value voucher that does not expire (or expires at least 2 years out). There shouldn't be any nonsense about things being locked to the same region or destination because people may no longer be interested in going to the same place in the future, plus for international trips they may not be eligible for a visa in the future if the purpose of the trip no longer exists. To be even better, it should not be locked to the same person either. If I have no use to fly (example) Hawaiian Airlines, I should be able to sell that voucher to others.

vinni2 7y ago

I thought most airlines are not giving refund due to coronavirus cancellations but rather like a voucher or an option to rebook.

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occz 7y ago
They are trying their very hardest to not follow the law, but they are legally obligated to provide refunds (at least in the EU).
- vinni2 7y ago
  I am in the EU and my recent trips were cancelled and the airline only offered a voucher should I contest that and ask for a full refund?
- mrep 7y ago
  Same in the US. I had 3 flights scheduled for this week and they were offering me the shitty vouchers if i cancelled myself but lo and behold, a week before each one they informed me they were cancelled or rescheduled and I can get an actual cash refund.

Cantbekhan 7y ago

Why don't they just sell some airplanes to covert the refund costs?

iolo 7y ago
I imagine there is a lack of buyers in the current economic climate. I doubt any airline is currently expanding and in need of extra planes.

hurricanetc 7y ago

How about we loan them the money at 16% interest, which is about the average interest rate for an airline credit card. And the loans go to the front of the line in any bankruptcy proceedings. Then I’m okay with allowing them to make their own silly rules.