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I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so so

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all sort of perverse incentives built in to erode educational benefits, hand hold students, make university 'fun', something that used to be part of the student body's remit, but having crushed that movement it is now where a lot of money is being spent at many universities. Not on academics, not on labs, but on comfort, edtech, busy work and asinine initiatives underpinned by endless erroneous reporting by consultants to make execs feel like they are 'doing good'. I know - it is hard not to sound bitter, but it is a tragedy of short sightedness. The recruitment of students is predatory and eventually the saturation of subpar graduates from these university degrees would have eventually resulted in the fading of both cultural and brand name prestige of sending your kids to Australia for study. This is also tied to cheap international student labour, housing that pockets the inner cities that nobody who isn't a trapped rich international would live in and a segregation of the university student community that is unhelpful.

wickerman 7y ago
In Dublin, where the housing crisis is supported by an overabundance of "student accommodation" and airbnb rentals, the housing crisis disappeared overnight because of this virus. A friend of mine said she found a small apartment for two in Dublin 5 for 800 euro a month. Unbelievable.
- s_dev 7y ago
  >the housing crisis disappeared overnight because of this virus Thats a bit disingenous and hyperbolic. It is true that more apartments are available (00's) due to Corona but the housing crisis is far from over.
  - mannykannot 7y ago
    It may be mistaken and exaggerated, but did you really intend to write that wickerman is being disingenuous?
    - s_dev 7y ago
      He's misrepresenting Dublin intentionally to contrive the point that AirBnB and student accomodation are entirely the cause of the problem. It's far more nuanced and complex -- involving tax laws, property dev incentives and planning laws and policy. None of which he mentions.
      - pnutjam 7y ago
        involving tax laws property dev incentives - airbnb & student housing planning laws - airbnb & student housing policy - airbn and student housing All of these except possibly the first item could directly address airbnb & student housing. I'm not seeing where you 2 disagree.
- lapnitnelav 7y ago
  Just had a wee look at Daft and the desperation starts to be quite obvious, with the prices being slashed and some offering 2 months rent free. Good. May they collapse swiftly.
- CalRobert 7y ago
  I study the Irish housing market, and if you're curious, I did a little analysis of this at https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/ftjhuk/comparison_of_2_bedroom_flats_under_2000_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/ftjhuk/comparison_o... and https://www.gaffologist.com/flats.png https://www.gaffologist.com/flats.png Honestly I think airbnb and student housing are scapegoats to an extent, where the bigger problem is a council that tends to oppose new housing they don't control (aka stuff that isn't council flats, which most people don't qualify for), and the political imperative to keep housing expensive means keeping it scarce. Height restrictions in the absolute middle of the city are bizarre, and it's kind of shocking that we still have low-ish density suburban semi-d's next to Grafton Street. https://goo.gl/maps/MzB5DfXpqCZp9V5V6 https://goo.gl/maps/MzB5DfXpqCZp9V5V6 Edit: If I may risk a small plug - I was displeased with the UI of Irish housing sites and made www.gaffologist.com to address this.
jbarham 7y ago
There's a flood of student & ex-Airbnb apartments for rent in central Melbourne, currently ~6300: https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-melbourne,+vic+3000/list-1 https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-melbourne,+vic+3000/li... I can't see international travel restrictions to Australia being relaxed until a vaccine is developed, so universities and landlords are going to be in a world of hurt.
- lbeltrame 7y ago
  > I can't see international travel restrictions to Australia being relaxed until a vaccine is developed Honest question: Australia wants to seriously lock its borders for 18-24 months? And what if a vaccine is not successful (despite tens in development, just two are being currently tested on humans)?
  - michaelt 7y ago
    Nobody wants to shut down their country, they just want thousands of deaths even less. And there ain't no way for people travelling by plane to follow social distancing.
    - JCharante 7y ago
      but people traveling by plane can certainly be sent to concentrated quarantine facilities upon arrival and monitored on an hourly basis for two or three weeks.
      - dirtydroog 7y ago
        The Left won't have that. It'd be racist.
        barry-cotter 7y ago
        You’d be amazed how fast people’s ideology changes when reality punches them in in the face repeatedly. Small costs borne by others people you don’t care about don’t matter. Large costs borne by you? People will adjust their actions very quickly and then explain how their ideology has always supported what they’re currently doing.
mb_72 7y ago
"The recruitment of students is predatory and eventually the saturation of subpar graduates from these university degrees would have eventually resulted in the fading of both cultural and brand name prestige of sending your kids to Australia for study." I would argue that this has occurred already; my associates in China assume that many students in Australia cheat their way through their degree, especially the ones who cheated their way into their degree (regarding the English requirements). eg https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/chinese-students-paid-to-ghost-write-for-australia-uni-students/11725330 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/chinese-students-paid...
cyphar 7y ago
Australian here too, just graduated along with my partner (who was an international student). You're right about the long-term consequences for the university, but I would also add that universities actively undermine their international students at every turn (perhaps because there's little profit motive to help them succeed in their ludicrously expensive education). The thing that pisses me off the most is that the student services usually provide very little guidance to international students about their legal rights in Australia, leading to massive wage exploitation (this is a global problem -- I have friends in the EU -- namely Finland -- and the US that have suffered from this too). Fears over their visas being revoked mean that they are also very unlikely to report abuses by the university or their employers to anyone. I've had to plead with friends to report their employer to Fair Work for outright wage theft, and I know many people who were lied to by their employer into thinking they can work more hours than they can (which was then effectively used as implicit blackmail -- "if you report my abuses, I can get you kicked out of the country"). They didn't know better, because they weren't told by anyone. And then there's work experience. Many degrees (especially in engineering fields) require practical work experience in order to complete your degree, but employers are incredibly reluctant to give international students unpaid internships (let's not get into the fact that unpaid internships are actually illegal in Australia, except for the specific case of university degrees it seems). My partner has dealt with employers who have explicitly said that they don't accept international students (which is not legal as it is discriminatory), and others have done it more slyly (international students can only work 20 hours a week during semester, so they put on the job description that you must work 21 hours a week). And universities don't help here either, in fact I'm going to name and shame UTS here. At a UTS Career Fair a few years ago, they specified which employers accepted international students and which didn't on the maps (only about a quarter did) and then they gave all of the international students different coloured name badges to local students. The net result was that international students were ignored when they came to any of the "local-only" booths. I don't know if they continued this behaviour, but I sent a complaint about this when I heard about it. Absolutely disgraceful. Sorry, I just felt the need to rant.
- jbarham 7y ago
  A couple of years ago I was working out of a local co-working space where one of the other tenants was an agency running a racket where they got international students to pay $1000 for the privilege of doing an unpaid internship [1]. It was a huge scandal and the agency was kicked out of the co-working space. On top of that it turned out that the interns weren't actually expected to do any work, they were effectively just buying a certificate saying that they had completed the internship which they could then use as documentation to prove that they had met the course requirements. For most international students in Australia the end goal is actually to get permanent residency. The degree/diploma is just a means to that end. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/82sxp9/pay_1000_to_work_at_as_an_unpaid_intern/ https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/82sxp9/pay_1000_...
tzjmetron 7y ago
You sound like a bitter person.
NamTaf 7y ago
It's also worth highlighting that the universities here have become so reliant on that money that they were paying students up to AUD$7500 in some cases [1] to not drop out of the academic semester, by either remote study or flying and staying in a third country for the 14 days to obey the technicalities of the travel ban from China. Had they dropped out before the census date, those students would've been eligible for refunds, and the universities would've been bled of funding they critically rely on. That the whole system has become so dependent on foreign funding that this sort of incentive became a financially prudent decision for the unis is terrifying from the point of view of independence [2] and ongoing security of the system. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/26/australian-university-offers-up-to-7500-to-students-stranded-in-china-by-coronavirus-travel-ban https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/26/australian-uni... [2]: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/universities-rewrite-confucius-institute-contracts-amid-foreign-influence-scrutiny-20200310-p548my.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/universities-rewrite...
Traster 7y ago
This reminds me of a New Statesmen article about UK universities[1], which point out university attendance has gone up 500% since 1990 and First class honours went from being awarded to 7% to being awarded to 29% of students. Either universities figured out a way of being 4x as effective teaching 5x as many students (with measurements for average intake attainment basically flat) - which would be a miracle. Or the marketisation of higher education has incentivised selling the long term reputation of the institution. By changing the institutions incentives, we've managed to destroy the educational value of the institutions themselves - because we no longer incentivise it. [1]:https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/grea...
- sago 7y ago
  Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would resist that kicking and screaming to high heaven. Because it would not only undermine their 'great institution' claims, but educational routes that aren't universities would trump them (in terms of cost for attainment) in very short order.
  - foldr 7y ago
    >Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. At UK universities, grades are routinely reviewed by an "external examiner" from a separate institution. In my experience, the result of this additional scrutiny has usually be to put grades up rather than lower them.
    - red_admiral 7y ago
      One of the many metrics that UK universities are assessed on is graduate employability - I think it's something like average salary 3 years after graduation in the latest Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF). Yes, we have a TEF to evaluate us, as well as external examiners and student surveys and other things.
washadjeffmad 7y ago
Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primarily aimed at the parents. My SO got a second degree several years ago, and all of her official and financial paperwork was addressed to "the parents of $SO". It was a bit shocking that there's so little expectation by universities for a legal adult to take agency in the process. I only wonder how much of this process was a result of student demands for more parental oversight and involvement, and if the end result is better outcomes or merely justification of more money spent.
- non-entity 7y ago
  > My SO got a second degree several years ago, and all of her official and financial paperwork was addressed to "the parents of $SO". Are there no legal issues that could come up with this? Working with financial documents addressed to someone other than yourself? I briefly touched on this elsewhere in this thread, but as a working professional who happens to still be very young and wanting to get my degree, universities are pissing me off. They create their own definitions of residency and independence that differ from the legal versions that seem to have no purpose but to extract more money from a potential student.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  > no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. I also think that the financial system around universities warped in such a way that it became easier to establish direct relationships with parents as university became less affordable to those trying to work while studying. Not to mention the absurd amount of money and effort that universities put into alumni communications to drive giving back to the school.
amiga_500 7y ago
Yet another thing that shouldn't be run as a business. The growth mindset of cancer capitalism is insane. What is the aim of a Sydney university? That eventually everyone in the world either works there or goes there. That eventually they buy coca cola and everyone drinks it at lunch? When can it stop growing?
matheusmoreira 7y ago
> There are all sort of perverse incentives built in to erode educational benefits, hand hold students, make university 'fun' This blog may be relevant: https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/ https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/
3xblah 7y ago
Is the situation any different across the Tasman
ThrowAway1Day 7y ago
It's not just academia, but also primary education, where foreign student money is ruining education. Take for example Türk Lisesi schools, run by the terrorist Fetullah Gülen (Fetø for short). They have managed to steal 10s of billions of dollars from governments around the world through scammy charter programs, while raising two generations of teenagers whose goal it is to overthrow Turkey and implement shariah law. 1/2 of the schools the Turks go to in Melbourne, for example, are Turk Lisesi. Interesting fact, Gülen, who has asylum in Pennsylvania, is also a friend of America's radicalized christian terrorist secretary of education. There are pictures of her standing side by side at $10k per plate fundraising dinners for Donny. Greed AND religion are destroying education all around the world.

wickerman 7y ago

In Dublin, where the housing crisis is supported by an overabundance of "student accommodation" and airbnb rentals, the housing crisis disappeared overnight because of this virus. A friend of mine said she found a small apartment for two in Dublin 5 for 800 euro a month. Unbelievable.

s_dev 7y ago
>the housing crisis disappeared overnight because of this virus Thats a bit disingenous and hyperbolic. It is true that more apartments are available (00's) due to Corona but the housing crisis is far from over.
- mannykannot 7y ago
  It may be mistaken and exaggerated, but did you really intend to write that wickerman is being disingenuous?
  - s_dev 7y ago
    He's misrepresenting Dublin intentionally to contrive the point that AirBnB and student accomodation are entirely the cause of the problem. It's far more nuanced and complex -- involving tax laws, property dev incentives and planning laws and policy. None of which he mentions.
    - pnutjam 7y ago
      involving tax laws property dev incentives - airbnb & student housing planning laws - airbnb & student housing policy - airbn and student housing All of these except possibly the first item could directly address airbnb & student housing. I'm not seeing where you 2 disagree.
lapnitnelav 7y ago
Just had a wee look at Daft and the desperation starts to be quite obvious, with the prices being slashed and some offering 2 months rent free. Good. May they collapse swiftly.
CalRobert 7y ago
I study the Irish housing market, and if you're curious, I did a little analysis of this at https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/ftjhuk/comparison_of_2_bedroom_flats_under_2000_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/ftjhuk/comparison_o... and https://www.gaffologist.com/flats.png https://www.gaffologist.com/flats.png Honestly I think airbnb and student housing are scapegoats to an extent, where the bigger problem is a council that tends to oppose new housing they don't control (aka stuff that isn't council flats, which most people don't qualify for), and the political imperative to keep housing expensive means keeping it scarce. Height restrictions in the absolute middle of the city are bizarre, and it's kind of shocking that we still have low-ish density suburban semi-d's next to Grafton Street. https://goo.gl/maps/MzB5DfXpqCZp9V5V6 https://goo.gl/maps/MzB5DfXpqCZp9V5V6 Edit: If I may risk a small plug - I was displeased with the UI of Irish housing sites and made www.gaffologist.com to address this.

jbarham 7y ago

There's a flood of student & ex-Airbnb apartments for rent in central Melbourne, currently ~6300: https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-melbourne,+vic+3000/list-1 https://www.realestate.com.au/rent/in-melbourne,+vic+3000/li... I can't see international travel restrictions to Australia being relaxed until a vaccine is developed, so universities and landlords are going to be in a world of hurt.

lbeltrame 7y ago
> I can't see international travel restrictions to Australia being relaxed until a vaccine is developed Honest question: Australia wants to seriously lock its borders for 18-24 months? And what if a vaccine is not successful (despite tens in development, just two are being currently tested on humans)?
- michaelt 7y ago
  Nobody wants to shut down their country, they just want thousands of deaths even less. And there ain't no way for people travelling by plane to follow social distancing.
  - JCharante 7y ago
    but people traveling by plane can certainly be sent to concentrated quarantine facilities upon arrival and monitored on an hourly basis for two or three weeks.
    - dirtydroog 7y ago
      The Left won't have that. It'd be racist.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        You’d be amazed how fast people’s ideology changes when reality punches them in in the face repeatedly. Small costs borne by others people you don’t care about don’t matter. Large costs borne by you? People will adjust their actions very quickly and then explain how their ideology has always supported what they’re currently doing.

mb_72 7y ago

"The recruitment of students is predatory and eventually the saturation of subpar graduates from these university degrees would have eventually resulted in the fading of both cultural and brand name prestige of sending your kids to Australia for study." I would argue that this has occurred already; my associates in China assume that many students in Australia cheat their way through their degree, especially the ones who cheated their way into their degree (regarding the English requirements). eg https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/chinese-students-paid-to-ghost-write-for-australia-uni-students/11725330 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-01/chinese-students-paid...

cyphar 7y ago

Australian here too, just graduated along with my partner (who was an international student). You're right about the long-term consequences for the university, but I would also add that universities actively undermine their international students at every turn (perhaps because there's little profit motive to help them succeed in their ludicrously expensive education). The thing that pisses me off the most is that the student services usually provide very little guidance to international students about their legal rights in Australia, leading to massive wage exploitation (this is a global problem -- I have friends in the EU -- namely Finland -- and the US that have suffered from this too). Fears over their visas being revoked mean that they are also very unlikely to report abuses by the university or their employers to anyone. I've had to plead with friends to report their employer to Fair Work for outright wage theft, and I know many people who were lied to by their employer into thinking they can work more hours than they can (which was then effectively used as implicit blackmail -- "if you report my abuses, I can get you kicked out of the country"). They didn't know better, because they weren't told by anyone. And then there's work experience. Many degrees (especially in engineering fields) require practical work experience in order to complete your degree, but employers are incredibly reluctant to give international students unpaid internships (let's not get into the fact that unpaid internships are actually illegal in Australia, except for the specific case of university degrees it seems). My partner has dealt with employers who have explicitly said that they don't accept international students (which is not legal as it is discriminatory), and others have done it more slyly (international students can only work 20 hours a week during semester, so they put on the job description that you must work 21 hours a week). And universities don't help here either, in fact I'm going to name and shame UTS here. At a UTS Career Fair a few years ago, they specified which employers accepted international students and which didn't on the maps (only about a quarter did) and then they gave all of the international students different coloured name badges to local students. The net result was that international students were ignored when they came to any of the "local-only" booths. I don't know if they continued this behaviour, but I sent a complaint about this when I heard about it. Absolutely disgraceful. Sorry, I just felt the need to rant.

jbarham 7y ago
A couple of years ago I was working out of a local co-working space where one of the other tenants was an agency running a racket where they got international students to pay $1000 for the privilege of doing an unpaid internship [1]. It was a huge scandal and the agency was kicked out of the co-working space. On top of that it turned out that the interns weren't actually expected to do any work, they were effectively just buying a certificate saying that they had completed the internship which they could then use as documentation to prove that they had met the course requirements. For most international students in Australia the end goal is actually to get permanent residency. The degree/diploma is just a means to that end. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/82sxp9/pay_1000_to_work_at_as_an_unpaid_intern/ https://www.reddit.com/r/melbourne/comments/82sxp9/pay_1000_...

tzjmetron 7y ago

You sound like a bitter person.

NamTaf 7y ago

It's also worth highlighting that the universities here have become so reliant on that money that they were paying students up to AUD$7500 in some cases [1] to not drop out of the academic semester, by either remote study or flying and staying in a third country for the 14 days to obey the technicalities of the travel ban from China. Had they dropped out before the census date, those students would've been eligible for refunds, and the universities would've been bled of funding they critically rely on. That the whole system has become so dependent on foreign funding that this sort of incentive became a financially prudent decision for the unis is terrifying from the point of view of independence [2] and ongoing security of the system. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/26/australian-university-offers-up-to-7500-to-students-stranded-in-china-by-coronavirus-travel-ban https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/26/australian-uni... [2]: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/universities-rewrite-confucius-institute-contracts-amid-foreign-influence-scrutiny-20200310-p548my.html https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/universities-rewrite...

Traster 7y ago

This reminds me of a New Statesmen article about UK universities[1], which point out university attendance has gone up 500% since 1990 and First class honours went from being awarded to 7% to being awarded to 29% of students. Either universities figured out a way of being 4x as effective teaching 5x as many students (with measurements for average intake attainment basically flat) - which would be a miracle. Or the marketisation of higher education has incentivised selling the long term reputation of the institution. By changing the institutions incentives, we've managed to destroy the educational value of the institutions themselves - because we no longer incentivise it. [1]:https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/great-university-con-how-british-degree-lost-its-value https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2019/08/grea...

sago 7y ago
Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would resist that kicking and screaming to high heaven. Because it would not only undermine their 'great institution' claims, but educational routes that aren't universities would trump them (in terms of cost for attainment) in very short order.
- foldr 7y ago
  >Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. Easier said than done. In more niche disciplines, the only people qualified to evaluate student attainment are other academics in the same discipline. At UK universities, grades are routinely reviewed by an "external examiner" from a separate institution. In my experience, the result of this additional scrutiny has usually be to put grades up rather than lower them.
  - red_admiral 7y ago
    One of the many metrics that UK universities are assessed on is graduate employability - I think it's something like average salary 3 years after graduation in the latest Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF). Yes, we have a TEF to evaluate us, as well as external examiners and student surveys and other things.

washadjeffmad 7y ago

Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primarily aimed at the parents. My SO got a second degree several years ago, and all of her official and financial paperwork was addressed to "the parents of $SO". It was a bit shocking that there's so little expectation by universities for a legal adult to take agency in the process. I only wonder how much of this process was a result of student demands for more parental oversight and involvement, and if the end result is better outcomes or merely justification of more money spent.

non-entity 7y ago
> My SO got a second degree several years ago, and all of her official and financial paperwork was addressed to "the parents of $SO". Are there no legal issues that could come up with this? Working with financial documents addressed to someone other than yourself? I briefly touched on this elsewhere in this thread, but as a working professional who happens to still be very young and wanting to get my degree, universities are pissing me off. They create their own definitions of residency and independence that differ from the legal versions that seem to have no purpose but to extract more money from a potential student.
save_ferris 7y ago
> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. I also think that the financial system around universities warped in such a way that it became easier to establish direct relationships with parents as university became less affordable to those trying to work while studying. Not to mention the absurd amount of money and effort that universities put into alumni communications to drive giving back to the school.

amiga_500 7y ago

Yet another thing that shouldn't be run as a business. The growth mindset of cancer capitalism is insane. What is the aim of a Sydney university? That eventually everyone in the world either works there or goes there. That eventually they buy coca cola and everyone drinks it at lunch? When can it stop growing?

matheusmoreira 7y ago

> There are all sort of perverse incentives built in to erode educational benefits, hand hold students, make university 'fun' This blog may be relevant: https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/ https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/

3xblah 7y ago

Is the situation any different across the Tasman

ThrowAway1Day 7y ago

It's not just academia, but also primary education, where foreign student money is ruining education. Take for example Türk Lisesi schools, run by the terrorist Fetullah Gülen (Fetø for short). They have managed to steal 10s of billions of dollars from governments around the world through scammy charter programs, while raising two generations of teenagers whose goal it is to overthrow Turkey and implement shariah law. 1/2 of the schools the Turks go to in Melbourne, for example, are Turk Lisesi. Interesting fact, Gülen, who has asylum in Pennsylvania, is also a friend of America's radicalized christian terrorist secretary of education. There are pictures of her standing side by side at $10k per plate fundraising dinners for Donny. Greed AND religion are destroying education all around the world.