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Bose QC 35 Firmware 4.5.2 Noise Cancellation Investigation Report

640 points by robbiet480 7y ago

dannyw 7y ago
Has anyone personally encountered this problem? Do you believe in this report? Do you think something is missing? For me, I quite like Bose products because their bluetooth pairing and connectivity seem to be significantly better than what I can get from cheaper brands like Taotronics, etc. I have always found products to be well built, even for full-plastic devices that are subject to more wear and tear than they deserve.
- medion 7y ago
  Yes I have - and I had no idea about the issue or controversy until after the update. I was in bed one night playing with the Bose app on my iPhone. It prompted me to do a Firmware update - I use these headphones A LOT - at the time I was wearing them for 6-8 hours a day for weeks on end and was very 'in tune' to their abilities. It was very quiet in bed, I'd been wearing them while reading a book for an hour before - I did the firmware upgrade and immediately noticed a difference when they rebooted. I was very confused and started playing with settings etc. I then Googled the issue and realised how widespread it was... The report linked is super interesting, but, I trust my own ears as a musician and I know something changed with the headphones 100%.
- cgearhart 7y ago
  I don’t know if it was _this_ problem, but I had an issue after firmware update this week. I have had the QC35 II headphones since 2017, and I love them. I also never update software unless something is broken—I don’t care about new features, I just want things to keep working. This past week I had to launch the Bose app to reconnect my phone to the QC35’s and it suggested a firmware update. I very rarely launch the app, so I let it proceed. They became _completely_ unusable after the update. The audio quality was awful, and noise cancelling virtually disappeared. I was able to determine that the problem was the QC35 microphone was stuck “on”, so it was attenuating the audio and amplifying ambient noise. I’ve had similar problems before with other Bluetooth devices and suspected that the firmware change caused them to identify or connect to the wrong Bluetooth device profile. Fortunately, restarting my phone resolved the problem. I don’t know why that worked, and I don’t know whether it was the phones fault or the headphones fault. It just affirmed my reasons for avoiding software updates.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - wingerlang 7y ago
    I've had this issue (and posted about it with several people chiming in). I tend to toggle manually the input back to the macbook and it usually works. Kinda annoying though.
nreilly 7y ago
That's a fantastic way of showing a company is listening to customer feedback and acting upon it, even if there doesn't seem to be anything wrong. Apple (and many other companies) could learn something from this transparency.
jmcgough 7y ago
I bought QC 35's a year ago and wish I had sooner. They're very well designed, and reading this makes me respect Bose even more. This is why their brand name is still so trusted.
- cheez 7y ago
  best headphones I've owned, buy them for everyone who asks lol
  - jmcgough 7y ago
    I have studio cans for music, but these are my dailies. They're so convenient for taking calls and make open offices much more bearable.
    - cheez 7y ago
      Of course, I'm talking for plebs :-)
  - ninkendo 7y ago
    You must never use them to make calls. (The audio quality is absolutely awful when in Self Voice mode, which is enabled for anything that uses the mic, and you can’t disable it.)
    - e40 7y ago
      I've used for calls on Android and not iOS since 2016. While walking to/from work. With lots of traffic noise. Sometimes people don't even know I'm walking, they are that good. QC35's here. The only thing that gets me is wind. Wind is wicked bad for calls. Even for music. The wind makes a very loud sound when it hits the over-the-ear cups from the rear. I've taken to wearing a hoodie when I walk in wind, and that solves it. Mostly. Walking with a hoodie when it's not really cold is not fun, as I get really hot.
      - ninkendo 7y ago
disillusioned 7y ago
My goodness. I've been following this issue, and avoiding upgrading my firmware, for about two years now. But this is so incredibly thorough and shows just how seriously they took these concerns, and validating, or invalidating them. They really dug deep here, and I respect them all the more for it. I've had really good experiences with Bose products, even though they're priced at a slight premium. They're just VERY high quality.
- hackerbabz 7y ago
  Silly question, but how the heck do you update the firmware? I have QC35 and I never realized they could be updated. Do I need to use the app? If I just never use the app am I safe from this bug?
  - frereubu 7y ago
    Yes, you use the app to upgrade the firmware.
    - heeen2 7y ago
      They also have a Windows app to do it
    - ncmncm 7y ago
      Like you have to install the app just to turn noise cancellation on and off? And if you install it, they milk personal details out of your phone? Or is that a different model? I would never, ever buy headphones that need an app, for any purpose.
      - huseyinkeles 7y ago
        You don’t -need- the app to use the headphones. It’s just useful for some extra functionality and upgrading the firmware.
      - frereubu 7y ago
        They hide the setting not to harvest your data in the privacy policy - you can use the app, make sure you turn off tracking, upgrade the firmware, then delete the app. It makes sense that you need some kind of app to upgrade the firmware. The only thing that is in the app that you can't do from the headphones is the level of noise cancelling, but that doesn't bother me because I always have it set to max.
DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
Assuming that the report isn't subtly misrepresenting the situation in some way, that's a fantastic job. It adds to my confidence in the hardware/firmware quality of their product. I do however have lingering concerns about their spyware [0]. Does anyone know if that's been addressed? [0] https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/ https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  Update: I think my question is partially answered here [1]. They seem to want far more information that I'm interested in sharing with them. [1] https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html
nodamage 7y ago
Wonder if they're doing anything similar with the "headphones randomly powering on even though the switch is turned off" issue?
- xur17 7y ago
  I had this issue with the QC 35 version 1, and they shipped me replacement headphones for free.
chewxy 7y ago
Wow, I am amazed at the level of care. I currently use a QC25, and did not update to 35 because I am not happy about the Siri/Google/Alexa integration. Still, I am definitely floored by the amount of care Bose provides on their product. I guess my next set of headphones will still be from Bose.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  Note that integration is in the QC 35 Series II - they aren't present in the original QC 35. They of course don't sell those new anymore, but you may be able to find them on Amazon on eBay. I had both the 25 and 35, and consider the 35 a great upgrade.
- funkaster 7y ago
  I used to have the QC25 until they disappeared from my desk at work. Got the new 700 and holly cow, those are great headphones. I don’t even use the app/any integration, just regular bt headphones and they work just great: I can have up to two devices connected simultaneously and switching from one to the other is seamless. I also really like how they work both wireless and there’s a wired option as well (they even include the cable). I’m really happy with the upgrade.
- stormbeta 7y ago
  I have the QC35's, and the voice assistant integration is, as expected, gimmicky and not very useful. However, you can change the button to control noise cancellation level instead, and that's actually very useful since "high" doesn't handle wind well when I'm outside, while "low" does.
noncoml 7y ago
Ah.. QC35 I and QC35 II, the headphones that won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users: https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/td-p/106140 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35... Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be
- ProfessorLayton 7y ago
  Ah, I've recently discovered that the on/off switch on my QC35II is actually not a hardware off switch at all. My headphones refused to turn off once, which I believe was triggered by being connected to two devices at once, one of which was trying to use the mic. The "solution" was to unpair everything and to make sure to only connect to one device at a time. I really wish the switch actually just disconnected the power. Other than that they've been pretty solid so far.
  - mickelsen 7y ago
    I have the same model, but mine does behave like an on/off button, being enough to solve that problem you had (no sound because some device other is paired) Maybe it's something about a firmware upgrade? I remember there was one in 2018 that enabled an auto turn-off feature past a certain time with no use. I didn't update mine with that or any of the newer ones, so if I forget to turn them off manually they just keep consuming battery.
- itchynosedev 7y ago
  A year or so ago I had an issue with my one year old pair of headphones (QC35 II). They wouldn't turn properly on anymore (light goes on, but no sound). Reached out to the support. They asked to do basic troubleshooting. After everything failed, they sent a free replacement. They did ask to send the faulty pair back, however. Can't complain about that.
stagas 7y ago
And what about their planned obsolescence strategy like the right ear simultaneously[0] stop working on everybody's QC25s with no replacement or repair option? [0]: https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-stopped-working-QC25/td-p/37207 https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-st...
- canada_dry 7y ago
  > ..."The right side stopped working in April 2018. I got them replaced and the operator gave me "one time only exception" to the replacement fee"... So, for folks suggesting Apple et al follow Bose's lead, it's clear they all follow the same play book i.e. a design flaw isn't their problem the moment the warranty is up. I'm someone who will escalate and put in the effort to be righted when a company does wrong, but it would sure be nice if companies didn't outright lie, coverup or have hidden warranties/"you're an exception" when they screw up!
rdudek 7y ago
I'm thinking about picking up the QC 35's series 2 or the Sony WH-1000MX3's. Any recommendations? Can either of those turn off the noise canceling tech? I'm not a big fan of noise canceling technologies, I'm just looking for a quality sounding wireless headset to pair with my iphone.
- stagas 7y ago
  Definitely the Sony's, by far.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    I owned Sonys. The make or break feature to me is the noise canceling, and the Bose 700 just murdered them, it wasn’t even a fair fight. I had a screaming baby in my arms with a tiny bit of music and could only feel the vibration of baby’s screams. The 700s are hands down industry best. I tried them all.
    - eyegor 7y ago
      Active noise canceling has no way to deal with complex high pitched noise, such as a baby crying. Maybe in the future someone will reach that point but for now it's only good for predictable, and especially low frequency, noise.
      - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        Do you own the 700s? Because I can tell you without a doubt there is noise canceling on the entire range, not as great as killing engine noise, but the difference between 10, 5, OFF is noticeable everywhere. In my example I had music on, but what the noise canceling does is allow for a very low volume of music vs trying to down everything out. I encourage you to try and put a newborn to sleep if you don’t think the crying can be predictable.
        eyegor 7y ago
JorgeGT 7y ago
As a researcher in acoustics (another field though) this post illustrates beautifully the difficulties of the field: how each of us feels different about sound (psychoacoustics), how even minute mechanical details have a noticeable impact on acoustic performance... FWIW I can confirm that this post shows great expertise in acoustic engineering, from the focus on the customer interviews/fieldwork (it is still very difficult to predict through synthetic tests in the lab how actual human will rate sounds) to the paired acoustic tests (we suck at comparing more than two sounds, we need pairing like in the ophthalmologist), the use of a critical listener, etc.
- gerardbeckerleg 7y ago
  I agree it is very thorough, what is really strange from my experience with the QC35 is that they haven’t found any problem. The noise cancellation in my earphones was working perfectly, performed the upgrade, and now I can hear the person next to me typing when I couldn’t before. 100% there is a problem with the firmware update no idea how they couldn’t find it with that amount of testing.
  - gerardbeckerleg 7y ago
    Doing a bit more digging, it looks like the report from Bose is testing the wrong issue. They tested 4.1.3 to 4.5.2 where as the issue is from 2.x.x and 3.x.x update to 4.5.2. https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285741/page/2 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...
    - mlvljr 7y ago
      ^^^
  - matsemann 7y ago
    Maybe the person got a new keyboard? Maybe you just didn't notice it before but now that you've started thinking about it it's impossible not to notice? There can be a thousand factors, and these 20 objective tests are easier to trust than subjective listeners.
stormbeta 7y ago
While this is great news for my QC 35's, the newer Bose 700's have me extremely worried for the future of their devices. Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again. The QC35 had it right with physical controls.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  I have the 700s, the important controls are buttons. The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song, it’s not my first choice but really it works fine. This is a non-issue. Edit: lol; my opinions from months of first hand everyday use are wrong, and should be echo chamber hidden by people who have never used the product.
  - Sargos 7y ago
    >The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song As a user of bluetooth headphones I am really struggling to think of a button not on that list that is important. The only thing that's really coming to mind is pause but maybe that's what you mean by mute? Those are literally the most essential buttons and by definition you are mostly going to be touching them when the headphones are on your head where you can't physically see the buttons. This is not a great experience.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      A. It already works well; it’s not important to bitch about capacitive buttons for the four motions that work. ESP when you don’t own the product and have actually used them. I don’t like capacitive buttons, but these are fine. B. There is nothing you can’t do here with the phone itself. Volume up and down can be done without even looking at the phone. There is nothing that will stop you from enjoying the product even if you for some reason just refuse to accept the capacitive buttons aren’t trash.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    What are the important controls on headphones if not volume and song skipping? Those are the ones I use the most.
snailerz 7y ago
They are showing so much respect and care for their customers that is almost unbelievable. Kudos to their will to analyze and also document about a single problem so thoroughly. I never bought a Bose product before, but reading this honestly makes me think about it... If any company would cost a premium for being as careful as they are, I would definitely pay for it.
- KingFelix 7y ago
  They are pretty amazing. I got a pair from the Amazon re:mars conference. I would have never spent that amount of money on headphones, must have for travels. So good
- noncoml 7y ago
  I disagree. The great customer support is just PR and an image they managed to create. When it comes down to costing them money to do the right thing, they don't. The headphones won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users: https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/m-p/277366#M55150 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35... Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be Edit: Wow, downvoted to -1 :/
  - caseysoftware 7y ago
    Your Bose community link is broken. Maybe add the correct one?
    - noncoml 7y ago
      Ooops sorry, fixed.
  - trog 7y ago
    Bought my partner a pair of these (super expensive) headphones as an Xmas present and her experience is a little similar. Battery life on hers plummeted after about 18 months to the point where if they're fully charged at night, by the morning with no use they're at 20% or less. Was super unimpressed with Bose support, both in store and online - they offered to wind back the firmware for us, or our other option was buy a new pair. It's interesting reading about this not-turning-off bug as maybe something like that is happening which is killing the battery overnight.
lxe 7y ago
The fact that they reintroduced the ability to downgrade the firmware is very refreshing. Hope more companies will follow suit.
- ojagodzinski 7y ago
  only to one specific version. This is not what community was hoping for.
  - jiofih 7y ago
    Why would you want to downgrade to a different version now that it’s clear there is no difference in NC?
motohagiography 7y ago
Product management master class right there.
dahdum 7y ago
Maybe I’m unlucky, but even keeping my QC25s in the case when not wearing them, I had two fail due to internal hardware issues just past warranty. Support was a joke. I’d have felt like a fool the next time so I switched to Sony’s line, zero issues in the last 4 years and I’ve traveled twice as much.
spike021 7y ago
I was fortunate enough to get an expensed pair of QC 35 I's at a previous job. This was a little over 3 years ago now. Never had any of the described issues. Even now they feel and sound great. Battery life may be starting to degrade, which is disappointing since I don't believe there's a way to replace it myself, and Bose probably doesn't offer any service to do it either.
- lstamour 7y ago
  I still have brand loyalty to Bose after almost a decade of trade-ins at a discounted price every 2.5 years or so. It’s too bad that around 2017 they stopped the trade-in program. The old QC 15s still had one of the nicest “fits” for me, and the 25s were pretty good too. But I wouldn’t want to have to keep swapping out AAA batteries or having to carry batteries with me in the case. I did like the old case design better than the new one, seemed flatter somehow. But the 35s going Bluetooth was a game changer for me, especially in connecting two devices at a time. Only thing missing is a USB C port so I don’t have to worry about plugging it in the wrong way to charge at night...
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    I exclusively use the QC25 at my office desk, and much prefer swapping AAA batteries over having a lithium battery that where the replacement isn't manufacturer-supported.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    This strikes me as a terrible history. I would never go back after such experience.
    - lstamour 7y ago
      Well, the QC 15 was perfect for me for a number of years, as long as I had AAA batteries. And while every new version after had some kind of trade off to it, the QC series has overall been quite reliable, with removable cords, etc. The Bluetooth version added a lot of complexity, but when it works well, it’s magic. And it works more often than it doesn’t, I just tend to notice the Bluetooth stack bugs more when they occur. Similarly I had to replace a number of QC 15 and 25 cords over the years as they inevitably went bad due to prolonged use and abuse, as it were. The Bose store historically made it very easy to get spare parts and service, though I presume that’s changed somewhat today...
cityzen 7y ago
Before people start fawning over Bose's handling of this, don't forget they're just like every other data mining company: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/electronics/891794-bose-must-face-spying-headphones-class-action-lawsuit/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...
- canada_dry 7y ago
  Good point. And, people who care about privacy shouldn't be too excited about having built-in Siri/Google/Alexa integration either.
  - cityzen 7y ago
    Fortunately costco had/has the old version before they sold their souls to Bezos. Why people want Amazon listening to anything is beyond me.
- avalys 7y ago
  So what? How does this harm me?
rkagerer 7y ago
The degree of investigation is impressive and I commend Bose on this! However, it does sound like they had a number of issues or regressions in prior versions of the firmware (eg. an update made some units connect to the wrong Bluetooth profile). I hope this demonstrates business reasons why it's important to get your product code right every release. Had they maintained a better reputation for competent product updates, it's unlikely user skepticism would have ballooned this into such a big deal.
totalZero 7y ago
I have purchased five or six different pairs of Bose noise-cancelling headphones, but I will never buy another product from them again until they allow customers to revert firmware. I updated the firmware on my QC35s a couple of years ago, and the ANC got worse. Like, maybe 6 decibels or so worse, with strange white noise. I wrote to them explaining the problem and asked how to revert firmware, and they said it wasn't permitted and instructed me to "turn the device off and on" or something like that as a way to pretend to address the issue and make me go away. I have only owned two products whose manufacturers refused to solve the problem when a new release of software or firmware ruined the user experience. The first was my Google Nexus 6P that boot-looped itself to death upon startup after an Android upgrade, and the second was my pair of QC35s. Since then, I don't trust Bose's updates and refuse to update any of my other devices made by them.
- tambre 7y ago
  > until they allow customers to revert firmware. In this post they're adding an option to do this. Albeit only to a single earlier firmware.
tiew9Vii 7y ago
Bose have had a few bad software updates historically. My sound bar lost its bass in an early update which they eventually resolved, also they made some promises about airplay 2 which never happened on some devices. Privacy policy + devices phoning home is questionable. QC35’s are a major seller for them so it’s good to see the effort going in to investigating the issue. Hopefully the effort gone in to investigating carries through to better software in general so it’s easy for them to verify what’s changed and also better release procedures again so they can reduce the post release debugging they had to do here.
herecomestracer 7y ago
Impressive report, however their customer support is terrible for such premium products. Have bought 3 sets of headphones over the last 6 years (2xQC25 and 1xQC35). Each pair of headphones starts to have audio issues right after the 2 year mark, usually resulting in the total loss of audio in one ear, and their support channels will only advise you to buy a new pair. Have switched to the competitor - Sony WH-1000XM3. So far so good. But really disappointed by the quality and longevity of Bose's premium products. Won't buy again, and for such a serious issue to take this much effort for Bose to allow firmware downgrades just confirms that for me.
- asd4 7y ago
  I switched from Bose to Sony and haven't looked back. The capacitive controls on the headphones are crap but I never really use them so it's not a big issue for me. Rock solid for music and getting work done.
hobs 7y ago
Their soundsports on the other hand are just bad at connecting to a bluetooth device and staying in sync at >1.5m distance. I've tried it with 4 different phones now, and they just cut out every time. Bose has been kind enough to exchange several pairs at no cost and hassle, but its not a problem with one of them, its all of them
- m3h 7y ago
  Same here. Suffering with Soundsport Free since I got them. They frequently disconnect even when I'm near my phone. Also, the audio/video lag issue is a total deal breaker. Bose seems to be the only one who has such issues.
  - hobs 7y ago
    For what its worth I have also seen the same behavior with Jabra wireless headphones, they might use the same chip/stack under the hood though.
kevindong 7y ago
For what it's worth, several of Bose's customers are continuing to refuse to believe this report's conclusion (in several instances, in an aggressively rude/accusatory way). https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285741 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...
markdown 7y ago
Unrelated to this, the Bose aviation headset has been sold out and unavailable in most of the world for about a year now.
- phonon 7y ago
  Which model....? Looks okay to me https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-aviation-headsets.html https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-avi...
  - markdown 7y ago
    Holy cow, they're back! I just checked stores in my part of the world. The proflight has been out for ages, both online and in stores all over Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore. I've been searching since early last year.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  All the pro pilots I know use Sennheisers, and nothing but Sennheisers, hands down.
  - markdown 7y ago
    All the pro pilots I know use Bose, and nothing but Bose, hands down.
    - ncmncm 7y ago
      "No true pro..."
ripvanwinkle 7y ago
For what its worth my QC35 right headset stopped working just a month past the 12 month warranty and I had no luck getting the issue redressed. That's a rather early failure for ~350$ of hardware.
locusofself 7y ago
I love my QC35 headphones except one thing- the bluetooth range is very small, like 20 feet? AirPods go much farther from my phone/laptop without breaking up. If I just cup my hands over the outside of the right headphone, the signal cuts out. Or if I hold my phone in my left hand while walking, it cuts out some times. Sounds great as long as my phone is close enough though.
aortega 7y ago
I have a QC 35, and I have experienced some of the degrading of sound isolation. After some research I discovered than the pads account for much of it, and they degrade rather quickly, but not faster than any other headphone and I have very expensive headphones. My Sennheiser 650 is >400 usd and is on his third pair of pads. The QC35 is so great that I developed ear problems for using them too much. So be careful with that.
- hellofunk 7y ago
  What kind of ear problems? That could refer to any of several very different problems.
Lammy 7y ago
"An important piece of feedback we’ve received from the community during this discussion is that you want the ability to downgrade the firmware on your Bose QC35 product. Today, we’re re-introducing the ability to downgrade firmware QC35 II to 4.3.6 and QC35 series 1 to 2.5.5 via the Bose BTU site for a limited time." A limited time? Why? How limited?
- hnarn 7y ago
  A better question is why they are letting customers do this at all since the whole article proves that there is no point in downgrading. It seems to only add additional confusion if you ask me, and plays in the hands of customers who claim that there's something wrong with the software even now that Bose has proven beyond all doubt that there is not.
  - gilgoomesh 7y ago
    My guess: loud, obnoxious, forum participants who won't stop brigading about it. Providing the downgrade – while technologically pointless – will rob those forum participants of their bluster (although they'll probably claim the downgrade is a lie or some other conspiracy).
    - hnarn 7y ago
      I agree with your guess, what I don't understand is why they would play along with this type of delusion. It's not going to accomplish anything apart from making these people more convinced in the face of opposing evidence that they were right all along.
      - draugadrotten 7y ago
        On the other hand, it makes a good impression on people like me. I have stayed away from the update due to the forum posts, and I very much think that this in-depth investigation from Bose could be the deciding factor for my next purchase as well. That they both investigate AND let people downgrade returns my confidence in the premium quality of the product. Good PR stunt or good customer care? What's the difference! I am happy. My firmware upgrade went well, by the way. Sounds as good as ever, possibly better with a more caramel flavoured sound in the high notes?
Fiahil 7y ago
I had to replace the ear cushion 6 month ago, and I couldn't find Bose's original replacement parts. I noticed the ANR perfs dropped a little bit after the replacement - something similar to what they described in the article. Is Bose selling original ear cushions somewhere ?
- mav3rick 7y ago
  They sell it on their website (in the US). You can also call them to place an order .
ornornor 7y ago
This is amazing! It's really nice to see how much Bose cares. Contrast that with Apple for instance: they are both selling products on which they emphasize quality and craftsmanship at above market prices. Yet Apple never ever acknowledges QA issues until a few years after the product is out, and does all it can to pretend everything is fine. Really impressed by Bose. I would seriously consider purchasing their headphones if active noise cancellation didn't make me feel like my nose is all congested and didn't give me a headache.
jopsen 7y ago
I noticed other threads complained about lack of CHANGELOG for firmware updates. I don't know what they have that they think is so secret, that thry can't tell us what bugs were fixed. As an engineer I dislike this lack of transparency. On the other hand these headphones mostly just work, apart from a few annoyance with reconnect time, etc.
snvzz 7y ago
Full disclosure: My primary set is Sennheiser HD600, which I use a lot and love. Excellent sound objectively and subjectively. Worth every cent, despite being available since 1997. They benefit a lot from a headphone amp but still do a decent job without. They are made to last, and should an accident ever break a piece, all parts are replaceable individually without the need for tools. I've had them for several years and they're as good as new. I have tested QC35 before, on a loan from a coworker. The FR is very good, but the distortion is horrendous. Measurements made on the set confirm by reviewers do confirm my impressions were spot on. Apparently the reason the FR is good is because they have a builtin DSP doing EQ. When I heard the price, for such bad sounding headphones, I thought about them as a scam. Later, I learned they don't just distort a lot, but are also not made to last. Brand loyalty is high, and the money BOSE spends in marketing plays no small role on this. BOSE devices are expensive and those who buy them get associate the price with quality. When they break, they just buy BOSE again.
- ProZsolt 7y ago
  I own a Sennheiser HD600 and a Bose QC25. They don't race in the same league. The HD600 has better sound quality hands down and I try to use it whenever I can. Where the QC25 shines is the noise canceling. I fly a lot and during a transatlantic flight, Bose is a godsend. It blocks out the engine noise very effectively. I can listen to music, podcasts, videos without cranking up the volume to max. Sometimes I use it in the office to block out office noises. Every other situation the HD600 is better.
pimeys 7y ago
From the comments I see the QC35 is not very durable pair of headphones. I would understand if the price tag would be under 100 euros, but the QC35's are quite expensive. And if they last only a couple of years, I wouldn't count that progress at all! There are great headphone manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Focal and Grado, who make excellent studio level headphones that can easily last for decades in use, delivering that beautiful sound and feeling comfortable in daily office use. I think the biggest problem is having Bluetooth in your headphones, which then requires a battery that is not easily replaced, and requires software and technology that either has bugs or degrades in a faster manner. I'd suggest while sitting in front of your computer, to use a corded pair of quality headphones and keep using them for years to come. Less waste, less money spent, better sound. I've had Beyerdynamic's dt-880 model since 2003. I could still use them in the office, but them being open I replaced them with the dt-1770 pro model to not annoy my colleagues that much. Brought the 880's home and now with the lockdowns I'm again using them daily while writing software. Just replace the ear pads every five years, clean the drivers with pressurized air and you're ready to go.
- qppo 7y ago
  The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant in this context. The brands you list have fine build quality, classic headphones based on the same physics and materials dating back about 50 years. They sound great, but they're not particularly novel, nor are they the same kind of product that is discussed here.
  - pimeys 7y ago
    Exactly! But the 1770 pro blocks enough noise to be used in a noisy studio and office space. No need for active noise cancellation or software to get a perfect bubble for your own thoughts. What I tried to say here is that maybe we're not witnessing progress with headphones such as the QC35. That maybe buying an expensive pair of headphones that needs to be replaced in every few years and which provide a subpar audio quality is not really that great. I understand the noise cancellation aspect in certain settings though. I own a pair of QC35's only for commuting. They work great for that, and the mediocre sound quality doesn't really bother me when I'm on the go. But the more I'm using them the more I'm getting worried are they going to be waste soon and if so, should I buy a new pair to replace them.
jacquesm 7y ago
Has there been any effort at making an open source version of these noise cancelling headphones? It would seem to make for a pretty neat project.
knorker 7y ago
> We are exploring options to allow you to modify how [self voice] works via the Bose Connect app Yes, please! Shut that fucking thing OFF. The only time I use the cable is because it doesn't have this terrible feature. Especially when I connect to something like an amateur radio there's zero reason to ruin the sound by mistaking listening to amateur radio as some sort of "call".
- jiofih 7y ago
  Wait, isn’t that feature only activated when you join a phone call? Why would it be activated for “amateur radio”?
  - knorker 7y ago
    I don't know. Maybe the radios are using the "phone call" feature to relay the audio. Maybe they have to, in order for the mic to work if you transmit, without delay. I've not tried transmitting, because listening is so bad, thanks to this feature.
McTossOut 7y ago
If only everyone was always this responsive.
kim0 7y ago
While we're at it, any recommendations for having phone calls in noisy environments?
- kim0 7y ago
  Preferably true wireless ones
jjoonathan 7y ago
SelfVoice is the problem. > In several conversations with customers, there was some confusion about noise cancellation function during a phone call or other Bluetooth HFP connection. Yeah, because having multiple bluetooth profiles, one of which has good cancellation and one of which doesn't due to SelfVoice is disastrous UX. Anything that perturbs the bluetooth settings on sound-producing devices and switches the default connected endpoint is going to trigger a severe degradation of the headphones' noise cancellation and noise floor. There is no light, or button, or obvious cue to indicate that the device is in a special state. Fixing the problem requires understanding this weird, hidden behavior (strike one) and dealing with bluetooth settings (strike two) on a device that isn't the headphone (strike three). I am very happy to hear that they are doing something about it, because Windows has recently started clearing my repeated efforts to disable the SelfVoice endpoint. Even though I understand the problem completely (which is always the biggest hurdle) dealing with it has recently become a severe enough hassle that I've been considering ditching the Bose on account of it.
- IceDane 7y ago
  I bought the QC35-IIs through my works tech budget and was very disappointed to find out how they worked wrt. there being two different voice profiles, where one profile uses this selfvoice thing and has no ANC. This is particularly shite when trying to use it to play games while talking to friends on discord. Am I understanding you correctly that it's possible to somehow disable this feature or something? If so, can you share?
  - jjoonathan 7y ago
    Yeah. Navigate to: Windows Key search > "Sound Settings" > Output > Manage Sound Devices The "Manage sound devices" panel should show a list of "Output devices" and a list of "Input devices." Click on one to disclose a Test button and a Disable button. You should see your headphones show up twice in the "Output devices" menu. Testing one of them will result in a clean sound, the other will result in shit sound (due to SelfVoice). Press "Disable" on the one with shit sound. Then do it again next time Windows Update runs and clears your user settings, and again, and again, because apparently clearing settings to default is something that Windows Update does now (I've seen it in other places too).
nvarsj 7y ago
Audio "issues" are incredibly subjective. The placebo effect is so strong with audio, which has led to an entire industry of snake oil and hyper subjective audio comments (like many seen in the replies here). Unless you blind A/B test, it is very hard to discern audio differences unless you have been professionally trained. Your ears and perception are most likely lying to you, especially with something as subtle as noice cancellation. I definitely sympathize with Bose here, it is hard to convince people with science when it comes to audio, unfortunately.
7ewis 7y ago
So is the general consensus that we can safely update now? Honestly I'm not great at noticing sound quality differences, unless there's a huge difference. But this one seemed to affect so many people I stayed away.
exabrial 7y ago
Now THAT is how you do a root cause analysis. I don't own a pair of these headphones, but I'm sending this out to my coworkers as an example of thorough work. Very very well done! Ironically... also looking at purchasing their product
Erwin 7y ago
The founder, professor Bose, had quite an interesting career and background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose > His father was an Indian freedom revolutionary[4] who, having been imprisoned for his political activities, fled Bengal in the 1920s in order to avoid further persecution by the British colonial police. > In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT on the condition that the shares never be sold.
- MengerSponge 7y ago
  This is a great episode about Bose's life and gift: https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift
skizm 7y ago
Why do the newer versions of these have to have freaking Alexa bundled with them. It's like a giant skid mark on an otherwise premium product. Bose does have the best noise cancelling functionality, but I'm simply never going to buy anything with Alexa, Cortana, or whatever Google's version of a voice assistant is paired to it. I deal with Siri crapware because Apple's incentives are slightly better aligned than these other advertising companies, but even that I hate and would get rid of in an instant if possible.
- tomaha 7y ago
  It's only marketing. There is no integrated assistant. It's a plain old button that can be used to activate one of these useless voice assistants on your phone because some people like it. If you're like me, you can use it as an extra control to modify noise cancellation.
  - usmannk 7y ago
    Yeah, you can change the functionality of the button via the Bose app. However, the Bose app is awful.
    - chrismeller 7y ago
      Sure, it’s less than ideal, but come on. There are far worse apps and it’s required to update the firmware. At least on iOS you’re also prompted to install it when you connect to the headphones for the first time anyway, so I would imagine adoption is pretty high.
      - usmannk 7y ago
        I don't mean "it's not a high tech native experience with dark mode". I mean the app works poorly, all the time, and gets in the way of actually using the headphones. For example: whenever my headphones are paired with both my phone and laptop (because the app allows for two devices to be paired at once??) I have to manually disable my laptop in the app to listen to phone audio, the "drag down to connect" interface rarely works properly, etc. It really is a very poor experience when compared to BT headphones that don't require an app to manage their state.
iandanforth 7y ago
TLDR: PEBCAK But damn they spent a lot of time to get to that conclusion.
hank_z 7y ago
I hope all companies in this world will care customers like Bose does.
beams_of_light 7y ago
I have a pair of QC 35s which I can only use low/no NC on due to vertigo issues with "high" mode. Looks like Bose has done an extremely impressive job of fleshing out the problem. Well done.
crazygringo 7y ago
This is fascinating. Seems almost a little overkill, but if their reputation is at stake then you want to make sure. Now I just wish there were a similar investigation into the AirPods Pro update -- some people swearing it massively impaired the noise reduction, other people saying there's no difference and some tiny subset of people are always going to be imagining things (or taking a different train or working in a new office, like this article). At least the idea of being able to downgrade firmware ought to put people's minds at ease... but I can also see why technically that might be annoying to implement.
diebeforei485 7y ago
Apple's AirPods Pro have a similar issue where a firmware update nerfed the noise-cancelling[1]. Apple stopped pushing the update, but I'm been stuck with this bad firmware for nearly four months now. The firmware updates are installed silently in the background while AirPods are charging, so I didn't have any choice in the matter. FWIW - I agree with installing updates automatically silently in the background because it solves a ton of issues for both developers and 99% of users. But the developers must thoroughly test the performance in real-world prior to pushing updates to users AND offer a way to downgrade. 1. https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellation-update/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellatio...
heelix 7y ago
There was a time where I likely spent more time on an airplane than some pilots. For years, I used their older QC3 all day long.. traveling and working. At some point, well past any warranty, they started to make a popping sound. They essentially just swapped it out for free. I picked up a pair of the A20 aviation headsets, just before they announced the Bluetooth update. (I also fly, but when I do they are the bug smashers, not the commercial ones) They turned around and cross shipped a new module for my headset free of charge. I did end up replacing the older QC3's with one of the QC35 wireless headsets. Nothing but positive things to say about their kit. For the most part, it has been used hard and worked flawlessly. When I have had an issue - they took really good care of me. Would reccomend. (With the QC35, I've really not needed to do anything with them. They just connected to my Linux box and Andriod tables OOTB.)
neycoda 7y ago
"our full engineering analysis determined that the degradation in all cases was the result of hardware related issues with earcushions, aftermarket parts, or mechanical integrity" Specifically, damage caused by the customer from use or misuse, or buying inadequate replacement parts from 3rd party manufacturers.
Schwolop 7y ago
There's a potential systemic bias involved in this that the report does not consider (unsurprisingly). What if the particular firmware caused hearing damage that now causes these users to think the noise-cancelling performance has deteriorated? I have no reason to think this is the case, but wow, what a confounder to have to deal with!

640 points by robbiet480 7y ago

Has anyone personally encountered this problem? Do you believe in this report? Do you think something is missing? For me, I quite like Bose products because their bluetooth pairing and connectivity seem to be significantly better than what I can get from cheaper brands like Taotronics, etc. I have always found products to be well built, even for full-plastic devices that are subject to more wear and tear than they deserve.

medion 7y ago
Yes I have - and I had no idea about the issue or controversy until after the update. I was in bed one night playing with the Bose app on my iPhone. It prompted me to do a Firmware update - I use these headphones A LOT - at the time I was wearing them for 6-8 hours a day for weeks on end and was very 'in tune' to their abilities. It was very quiet in bed, I'd been wearing them while reading a book for an hour before - I did the firmware upgrade and immediately noticed a difference when they rebooted. I was very confused and started playing with settings etc. I then Googled the issue and realised how widespread it was... The report linked is super interesting, but, I trust my own ears as a musician and I know something changed with the headphones 100%.
cgearhart 7y ago
I don’t know if it was _this_ problem, but I had an issue after firmware update this week. I have had the QC35 II headphones since 2017, and I love them. I also never update software unless something is broken—I don’t care about new features, I just want things to keep working. This past week I had to launch the Bose app to reconnect my phone to the QC35’s and it suggested a firmware update. I very rarely launch the app, so I let it proceed. They became _completely_ unusable after the update. The audio quality was awful, and noise cancelling virtually disappeared. I was able to determine that the problem was the QC35 microphone was stuck “on”, so it was attenuating the audio and amplifying ambient noise. I’ve had similar problems before with other Bluetooth devices and suspected that the firmware change caused them to identify or connect to the wrong Bluetooth device profile. Fortunately, restarting my phone resolved the problem. I don’t know why that worked, and I don’t know whether it was the phones fault or the headphones fault. It just affirmed my reasons for avoiding software updates.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- wingerlang 7y ago
  I've had this issue (and posted about it with several people chiming in). I tend to toggle manually the input back to the macbook and it usually works. Kinda annoying though.

nreilly 7y ago

That's a fantastic way of showing a company is listening to customer feedback and acting upon it, even if there doesn't seem to be anything wrong. Apple (and many other companies) could learn something from this transparency.

jmcgough 7y ago

I bought QC 35's a year ago and wish I had sooner. They're very well designed, and reading this makes me respect Bose even more. This is why their brand name is still so trusted.

cheez 7y ago
best headphones I've owned, buy them for everyone who asks lol
- jmcgough 7y ago
  I have studio cans for music, but these are my dailies. They're so convenient for taking calls and make open offices much more bearable.
  - cheez 7y ago
    Of course, I'm talking for plebs :-)
- ninkendo 7y ago
  You must never use them to make calls. (The audio quality is absolutely awful when in Self Voice mode, which is enabled for anything that uses the mic, and you can’t disable it.)
  - e40 7y ago
    I've used for calls on Android and not iOS since 2016. While walking to/from work. With lots of traffic noise. Sometimes people don't even know I'm walking, they are that good. QC35's here. The only thing that gets me is wind. Wind is wicked bad for calls. Even for music. The wind makes a very loud sound when it hits the over-the-ear cups from the rear. I've taken to wearing a hoodie when I walk in wind, and that solves it. Mostly. Walking with a hoodie when it's not really cold is not fun, as I get really hot.
    - ninkendo 7y ago

disillusioned 7y ago

My goodness. I've been following this issue, and avoiding upgrading my firmware, for about two years now. But this is so incredibly thorough and shows just how seriously they took these concerns, and validating, or invalidating them. They really dug deep here, and I respect them all the more for it. I've had really good experiences with Bose products, even though they're priced at a slight premium. They're just VERY high quality.

hackerbabz 7y ago
Silly question, but how the heck do you update the firmware? I have QC35 and I never realized they could be updated. Do I need to use the app? If I just never use the app am I safe from this bug?
- frereubu 7y ago
  Yes, you use the app to upgrade the firmware.
  - heeen2 7y ago
    They also have a Windows app to do it
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    Like you have to install the app just to turn noise cancellation on and off? And if you install it, they milk personal details out of your phone? Or is that a different model? I would never, ever buy headphones that need an app, for any purpose.
    - huseyinkeles 7y ago
      You don’t -need- the app to use the headphones. It’s just useful for some extra functionality and upgrading the firmware.
    - frereubu 7y ago
      They hide the setting not to harvest your data in the privacy policy - you can use the app, make sure you turn off tracking, upgrade the firmware, then delete the app. It makes sense that you need some kind of app to upgrade the firmware. The only thing that is in the app that you can't do from the headphones is the level of noise cancelling, but that doesn't bother me because I always have it set to max.

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago

Assuming that the report isn't subtly misrepresenting the situation in some way, that's a fantastic job. It adds to my confidence in the hardware/firmware quality of their product. I do however have lingering concerns about their spyware [0]. Does anyone know if that's been addressed? [0] https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/ https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
Update: I think my question is partially answered here [1]. They seem to want far more information that I'm interested in sharing with them. [1] https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html

nodamage 7y ago

Wonder if they're doing anything similar with the "headphones randomly powering on even though the switch is turned off" issue?

xur17 7y ago
I had this issue with the QC 35 version 1, and they shipped me replacement headphones for free.

chewxy 7y ago

Wow, I am amazed at the level of care. I currently use a QC25, and did not update to 35 because I am not happy about the Siri/Google/Alexa integration. Still, I am definitely floored by the amount of care Bose provides on their product. I guess my next set of headphones will still be from Bose.

bdcravens 7y ago
Note that integration is in the QC 35 Series II - they aren't present in the original QC 35. They of course don't sell those new anymore, but you may be able to find them on Amazon on eBay. I had both the 25 and 35, and consider the 35 a great upgrade.
funkaster 7y ago
I used to have the QC25 until they disappeared from my desk at work. Got the new 700 and holly cow, those are great headphones. I don’t even use the app/any integration, just regular bt headphones and they work just great: I can have up to two devices connected simultaneously and switching from one to the other is seamless. I also really like how they work both wireless and there’s a wired option as well (they even include the cable). I’m really happy with the upgrade.
stormbeta 7y ago
I have the QC35's, and the voice assistant integration is, as expected, gimmicky and not very useful. However, you can change the button to control noise cancellation level instead, and that's actually very useful since "high" doesn't handle wind well when I'm outside, while "low" does.

noncoml 7y ago

Ah.. QC35 I and QC35 II, the headphones that won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users: https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/td-p/106140 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35... Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be

ProfessorLayton 7y ago
Ah, I've recently discovered that the on/off switch on my QC35II is actually not a hardware off switch at all. My headphones refused to turn off once, which I believe was triggered by being connected to two devices at once, one of which was trying to use the mic. The "solution" was to unpair everything and to make sure to only connect to one device at a time. I really wish the switch actually just disconnected the power. Other than that they've been pretty solid so far.
- mickelsen 7y ago
  I have the same model, but mine does behave like an on/off button, being enough to solve that problem you had (no sound because some device other is paired) Maybe it's something about a firmware upgrade? I remember there was one in 2018 that enabled an auto turn-off feature past a certain time with no use. I didn't update mine with that or any of the newer ones, so if I forget to turn them off manually they just keep consuming battery.
itchynosedev 7y ago
A year or so ago I had an issue with my one year old pair of headphones (QC35 II). They wouldn't turn properly on anymore (light goes on, but no sound). Reached out to the support. They asked to do basic troubleshooting. After everything failed, they sent a free replacement. They did ask to send the faulty pair back, however. Can't complain about that.

stagas 7y ago

And what about their planned obsolescence strategy like the right ear simultaneously[0] stop working on everybody's QC25s with no replacement or repair option? [0]: https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-stopped-working-QC25/td-p/37207 https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-st...

canada_dry 7y ago
> ..."The right side stopped working in April 2018. I got them replaced and the operator gave me "one time only exception" to the replacement fee"... So, for folks suggesting Apple et al follow Bose's lead, it's clear they all follow the same play book i.e. a design flaw isn't their problem the moment the warranty is up. I'm someone who will escalate and put in the effort to be righted when a company does wrong, but it would sure be nice if companies didn't outright lie, coverup or have hidden warranties/"you're an exception" when they screw up!

rdudek 7y ago

I'm thinking about picking up the QC 35's series 2 or the Sony WH-1000MX3's. Any recommendations? Can either of those turn off the noise canceling tech? I'm not a big fan of noise canceling technologies, I'm just looking for a quality sounding wireless headset to pair with my iphone.

stagas 7y ago
Definitely the Sony's, by far.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  I owned Sonys. The make or break feature to me is the noise canceling, and the Bose 700 just murdered them, it wasn’t even a fair fight. I had a screaming baby in my arms with a tiny bit of music and could only feel the vibration of baby’s screams. The 700s are hands down industry best. I tried them all.
  - eyegor 7y ago
    Active noise canceling has no way to deal with complex high pitched noise, such as a baby crying. Maybe in the future someone will reach that point but for now it's only good for predictable, and especially low frequency, noise.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      Do you own the 700s? Because I can tell you without a doubt there is noise canceling on the entire range, not as great as killing engine noise, but the difference between 10, 5, OFF is noticeable everywhere. In my example I had music on, but what the noise canceling does is allow for a very low volume of music vs trying to down everything out. I encourage you to try and put a newborn to sleep if you don’t think the crying can be predictable.
      - eyegor 7y ago

JorgeGT 7y ago

As a researcher in acoustics (another field though) this post illustrates beautifully the difficulties of the field: how each of us feels different about sound (psychoacoustics), how even minute mechanical details have a noticeable impact on acoustic performance... FWIW I can confirm that this post shows great expertise in acoustic engineering, from the focus on the customer interviews/fieldwork (it is still very difficult to predict through synthetic tests in the lab how actual human will rate sounds) to the paired acoustic tests (we suck at comparing more than two sounds, we need pairing like in the ophthalmologist), the use of a critical listener, etc.

gerardbeckerleg 7y ago
I agree it is very thorough, what is really strange from my experience with the QC35 is that they haven’t found any problem. The noise cancellation in my earphones was working perfectly, performed the upgrade, and now I can hear the person next to me typing when I couldn’t before. 100% there is a problem with the firmware update no idea how they couldn’t find it with that amount of testing.
- gerardbeckerleg 7y ago
  Doing a bit more digging, it looks like the report from Bose is testing the wrong issue. They tested 4.1.3 to 4.5.2 where as the issue is from 2.x.x and 3.x.x update to 4.5.2. https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285741/page/2 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...
  - mlvljr 7y ago
    ^^^
- matsemann 7y ago
  Maybe the person got a new keyboard? Maybe you just didn't notice it before but now that you've started thinking about it it's impossible not to notice? There can be a thousand factors, and these 20 objective tests are easier to trust than subjective listeners.

stormbeta 7y ago

While this is great news for my QC 35's, the newer Bose 700's have me extremely worried for the future of their devices. Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again. The QC35 had it right with physical controls.

SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
I have the 700s, the important controls are buttons. The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song, it’s not my first choice but really it works fine. This is a non-issue. Edit: lol; my opinions from months of first hand everyday use are wrong, and should be echo chamber hidden by people who have never used the product.
- Sargos 7y ago
  >The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song As a user of bluetooth headphones I am really struggling to think of a button not on that list that is important. The only thing that's really coming to mind is pause but maybe that's what you mean by mute? Those are literally the most essential buttons and by definition you are mostly going to be touching them when the headphones are on your head where you can't physically see the buttons. This is not a great experience.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    A. It already works well; it’s not important to bitch about capacitive buttons for the four motions that work. ESP when you don’t own the product and have actually used them. I don’t like capacitive buttons, but these are fine. B. There is nothing you can’t do here with the phone itself. Volume up and down can be done without even looking at the phone. There is nothing that will stop you from enjoying the product even if you for some reason just refuse to accept the capacitive buttons aren’t trash.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  What are the important controls on headphones if not volume and song skipping? Those are the ones I use the most.

snailerz 7y ago

They are showing so much respect and care for their customers that is almost unbelievable. Kudos to their will to analyze and also document about a single problem so thoroughly. I never bought a Bose product before, but reading this honestly makes me think about it... If any company would cost a premium for being as careful as they are, I would definitely pay for it.

KingFelix 7y ago
They are pretty amazing. I got a pair from the Amazon re:mars conference. I would have never spent that amount of money on headphones, must have for travels. So good
noncoml 7y ago
I disagree. The great customer support is just PR and an image they managed to create. When it comes down to costing them money to do the right thing, they don't. The headphones won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users: https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35-I-is-Turning-On-By-Itself/m-p/277366#M55150 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35... Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be Edit: Wow, downvoted to -1 :/
- caseysoftware 7y ago
  Your Bose community link is broken. Maybe add the correct one?
  - noncoml 7y ago
    Ooops sorry, fixed.
- trog 7y ago
  Bought my partner a pair of these (super expensive) headphones as an Xmas present and her experience is a little similar. Battery life on hers plummeted after about 18 months to the point where if they're fully charged at night, by the morning with no use they're at 20% or less. Was super unimpressed with Bose support, both in store and online - they offered to wind back the firmware for us, or our other option was buy a new pair. It's interesting reading about this not-turning-off bug as maybe something like that is happening which is killing the battery overnight.

lxe 7y ago

The fact that they reintroduced the ability to downgrade the firmware is very refreshing. Hope more companies will follow suit.

ojagodzinski 7y ago
only to one specific version. This is not what community was hoping for.
- jiofih 7y ago
  Why would you want to downgrade to a different version now that it’s clear there is no difference in NC?

motohagiography 7y ago

Product management master class right there.

dahdum 7y ago

Maybe I’m unlucky, but even keeping my QC25s in the case when not wearing them, I had two fail due to internal hardware issues just past warranty. Support was a joke. I’d have felt like a fool the next time so I switched to Sony’s line, zero issues in the last 4 years and I’ve traveled twice as much.

spike021 7y ago

I was fortunate enough to get an expensed pair of QC 35 I's at a previous job. This was a little over 3 years ago now. Never had any of the described issues. Even now they feel and sound great. Battery life may be starting to degrade, which is disappointing since I don't believe there's a way to replace it myself, and Bose probably doesn't offer any service to do it either.

lstamour 7y ago
I still have brand loyalty to Bose after almost a decade of trade-ins at a discounted price every 2.5 years or so. It’s too bad that around 2017 they stopped the trade-in program. The old QC 15s still had one of the nicest “fits” for me, and the 25s were pretty good too. But I wouldn’t want to have to keep swapping out AAA batteries or having to carry batteries with me in the case. I did like the old case design better than the new one, seemed flatter somehow. But the 35s going Bluetooth was a game changer for me, especially in connecting two devices at a time. Only thing missing is a USB C port so I don’t have to worry about plugging it in the wrong way to charge at night...
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I exclusively use the QC25 at my office desk, and much prefer swapping AAA batteries over having a lithium battery that where the replacement isn't manufacturer-supported.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  This strikes me as a terrible history. I would never go back after such experience.
  - lstamour 7y ago
    Well, the QC 15 was perfect for me for a number of years, as long as I had AAA batteries. And while every new version after had some kind of trade off to it, the QC series has overall been quite reliable, with removable cords, etc. The Bluetooth version added a lot of complexity, but when it works well, it’s magic. And it works more often than it doesn’t, I just tend to notice the Bluetooth stack bugs more when they occur. Similarly I had to replace a number of QC 15 and 25 cords over the years as they inevitably went bad due to prolonged use and abuse, as it were. The Bose store historically made it very easy to get spare parts and service, though I presume that’s changed somewhat today...

cityzen 7y ago

Before people start fawning over Bose's handling of this, don't forget they're just like every other data mining company: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/electronics/891794-bose-must-face-spying-headphones-class-action-lawsuit/ https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...

canada_dry 7y ago
Good point. And, people who care about privacy shouldn't be too excited about having built-in Siri/Google/Alexa integration either.
- cityzen 7y ago
  Fortunately costco had/has the old version before they sold their souls to Bezos. Why people want Amazon listening to anything is beyond me.
avalys 7y ago
So what? How does this harm me?

rkagerer 7y ago

The degree of investigation is impressive and I commend Bose on this! However, it does sound like they had a number of issues or regressions in prior versions of the firmware (eg. an update made some units connect to the wrong Bluetooth profile). I hope this demonstrates business reasons why it's important to get your product code right every release. Had they maintained a better reputation for competent product updates, it's unlikely user skepticism would have ballooned this into such a big deal.

totalZero 7y ago

I have purchased five or six different pairs of Bose noise-cancelling headphones, but I will never buy another product from them again until they allow customers to revert firmware. I updated the firmware on my QC35s a couple of years ago, and the ANC got worse. Like, maybe 6 decibels or so worse, with strange white noise. I wrote to them explaining the problem and asked how to revert firmware, and they said it wasn't permitted and instructed me to "turn the device off and on" or something like that as a way to pretend to address the issue and make me go away. I have only owned two products whose manufacturers refused to solve the problem when a new release of software or firmware ruined the user experience. The first was my Google Nexus 6P that boot-looped itself to death upon startup after an Android upgrade, and the second was my pair of QC35s. Since then, I don't trust Bose's updates and refuse to update any of my other devices made by them.

tambre 7y ago
> until they allow customers to revert firmware. In this post they're adding an option to do this. Albeit only to a single earlier firmware.

tiew9Vii 7y ago

Bose have had a few bad software updates historically. My sound bar lost its bass in an early update which they eventually resolved, also they made some promises about airplay 2 which never happened on some devices. Privacy policy + devices phoning home is questionable. QC35’s are a major seller for them so it’s good to see the effort going in to investigating the issue. Hopefully the effort gone in to investigating carries through to better software in general so it’s easy for them to verify what’s changed and also better release procedures again so they can reduce the post release debugging they had to do here.

herecomestracer 7y ago

Impressive report, however their customer support is terrible for such premium products. Have bought 3 sets of headphones over the last 6 years (2xQC25 and 1xQC35). Each pair of headphones starts to have audio issues right after the 2 year mark, usually resulting in the total loss of audio in one ear, and their support channels will only advise you to buy a new pair. Have switched to the competitor - Sony WH-1000XM3. So far so good. But really disappointed by the quality and longevity of Bose's premium products. Won't buy again, and for such a serious issue to take this much effort for Bose to allow firmware downgrades just confirms that for me.

asd4 7y ago
I switched from Bose to Sony and haven't looked back. The capacitive controls on the headphones are crap but I never really use them so it's not a big issue for me. Rock solid for music and getting work done.

hobs 7y ago

Their soundsports on the other hand are just bad at connecting to a bluetooth device and staying in sync at >1.5m distance. I've tried it with 4 different phones now, and they just cut out every time. Bose has been kind enough to exchange several pairs at no cost and hassle, but its not a problem with one of them, its all of them

m3h 7y ago
Same here. Suffering with Soundsport Free since I got them. They frequently disconnect even when I'm near my phone. Also, the audio/video lag issue is a total deal breaker. Bose seems to be the only one who has such issues.
- hobs 7y ago
  For what its worth I have also seen the same behavior with Jabra wireless headphones, they might use the same chip/stack under the hood though.

kevindong 7y ago

For what it's worth, several of Bose's customers are continuing to refuse to believe this report's conclusion (in several instances, in an aggressively rude/accusatory way). https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285741 https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...

markdown 7y ago

Unrelated to this, the Bose aviation headset has been sold out and unavailable in most of the world for about a year now.

phonon 7y ago
Which model....? Looks okay to me https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-aviation-headsets.html https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-avi...
- markdown 7y ago
  Holy cow, they're back! I just checked stores in my part of the world. The proflight has been out for ages, both online and in stores all over Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore. I've been searching since early last year.
ncmncm 7y ago
All the pro pilots I know use Sennheisers, and nothing but Sennheisers, hands down.
- markdown 7y ago
  All the pro pilots I know use Bose, and nothing but Bose, hands down.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    "No true pro..."

ripvanwinkle 7y ago

For what its worth my QC35 right headset stopped working just a month past the 12 month warranty and I had no luck getting the issue redressed. That's a rather early failure for ~350$ of hardware.

locusofself 7y ago

I love my QC35 headphones except one thing- the bluetooth range is very small, like 20 feet? AirPods go much farther from my phone/laptop without breaking up. If I just cup my hands over the outside of the right headphone, the signal cuts out. Or if I hold my phone in my left hand while walking, it cuts out some times. Sounds great as long as my phone is close enough though.

aortega 7y ago

I have a QC 35, and I have experienced some of the degrading of sound isolation. After some research I discovered than the pads account for much of it, and they degrade rather quickly, but not faster than any other headphone and I have very expensive headphones. My Sennheiser 650 is >400 usd and is on his third pair of pads. The QC35 is so great that I developed ear problems for using them too much. So be careful with that.

hellofunk 7y ago
What kind of ear problems? That could refer to any of several very different problems.

Lammy 7y ago

"An important piece of feedback we’ve received from the community during this discussion is that you want the ability to downgrade the firmware on your Bose QC35 product. Today, we’re re-introducing the ability to downgrade firmware QC35 II to 4.3.6 and QC35 series 1 to 2.5.5 via the Bose BTU site for a limited time." A limited time? Why? How limited?

hnarn 7y ago
A better question is why they are letting customers do this at all since the whole article proves that there is no point in downgrading. It seems to only add additional confusion if you ask me, and plays in the hands of customers who claim that there's something wrong with the software even now that Bose has proven beyond all doubt that there is not.
- gilgoomesh 7y ago
  My guess: loud, obnoxious, forum participants who won't stop brigading about it. Providing the downgrade – while technologically pointless – will rob those forum participants of their bluster (although they'll probably claim the downgrade is a lie or some other conspiracy).
  - hnarn 7y ago
    I agree with your guess, what I don't understand is why they would play along with this type of delusion. It's not going to accomplish anything apart from making these people more convinced in the face of opposing evidence that they were right all along.
    - draugadrotten 7y ago
      On the other hand, it makes a good impression on people like me. I have stayed away from the update due to the forum posts, and I very much think that this in-depth investigation from Bose could be the deciding factor for my next purchase as well. That they both investigate AND let people downgrade returns my confidence in the premium quality of the product. Good PR stunt or good customer care? What's the difference! I am happy. My firmware upgrade went well, by the way. Sounds as good as ever, possibly better with a more caramel flavoured sound in the high notes?

Fiahil 7y ago

I had to replace the ear cushion 6 month ago, and I couldn't find Bose's original replacement parts. I noticed the ANR perfs dropped a little bit after the replacement - something similar to what they described in the article. Is Bose selling original ear cushions somewhere ?

mav3rick 7y ago
They sell it on their website (in the US). You can also call them to place an order .

ornornor 7y ago

This is amazing! It's really nice to see how much Bose cares. Contrast that with Apple for instance: they are both selling products on which they emphasize quality and craftsmanship at above market prices. Yet Apple never ever acknowledges QA issues until a few years after the product is out, and does all it can to pretend everything is fine. Really impressed by Bose. I would seriously consider purchasing their headphones if active noise cancellation didn't make me feel like my nose is all congested and didn't give me a headache.

jopsen 7y ago

I noticed other threads complained about lack of CHANGELOG for firmware updates. I don't know what they have that they think is so secret, that thry can't tell us what bugs were fixed. As an engineer I dislike this lack of transparency. On the other hand these headphones mostly just work, apart from a few annoyance with reconnect time, etc.

snvzz 7y ago

Full disclosure: My primary set is Sennheiser HD600, which I use a lot and love. Excellent sound objectively and subjectively. Worth every cent, despite being available since 1997. They benefit a lot from a headphone amp but still do a decent job without. They are made to last, and should an accident ever break a piece, all parts are replaceable individually without the need for tools. I've had them for several years and they're as good as new. I have tested QC35 before, on a loan from a coworker. The FR is very good, but the distortion is horrendous. Measurements made on the set confirm by reviewers do confirm my impressions were spot on. Apparently the reason the FR is good is because they have a builtin DSP doing EQ. When I heard the price, for such bad sounding headphones, I thought about them as a scam. Later, I learned they don't just distort a lot, but are also not made to last. Brand loyalty is high, and the money BOSE spends in marketing plays no small role on this. BOSE devices are expensive and those who buy them get associate the price with quality. When they break, they just buy BOSE again.

ProZsolt 7y ago
I own a Sennheiser HD600 and a Bose QC25. They don't race in the same league. The HD600 has better sound quality hands down and I try to use it whenever I can. Where the QC25 shines is the noise canceling. I fly a lot and during a transatlantic flight, Bose is a godsend. It blocks out the engine noise very effectively. I can listen to music, podcasts, videos without cranking up the volume to max. Sometimes I use it in the office to block out office noises. Every other situation the HD600 is better.

pimeys 7y ago

From the comments I see the QC35 is not very durable pair of headphones. I would understand if the price tag would be under 100 euros, but the QC35's are quite expensive. And if they last only a couple of years, I wouldn't count that progress at all! There are great headphone manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Focal and Grado, who make excellent studio level headphones that can easily last for decades in use, delivering that beautiful sound and feeling comfortable in daily office use. I think the biggest problem is having Bluetooth in your headphones, which then requires a battery that is not easily replaced, and requires software and technology that either has bugs or degrades in a faster manner. I'd suggest while sitting in front of your computer, to use a corded pair of quality headphones and keep using them for years to come. Less waste, less money spent, better sound. I've had Beyerdynamic's dt-880 model since 2003. I could still use them in the office, but them being open I replaced them with the dt-1770 pro model to not annoy my colleagues that much. Brought the 880's home and now with the lockdowns I'm again using them daily while writing software. Just replace the ear pads every five years, clean the drivers with pressurized air and you're ready to go.

qppo 7y ago
The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant in this context. The brands you list have fine build quality, classic headphones based on the same physics and materials dating back about 50 years. They sound great, but they're not particularly novel, nor are they the same kind of product that is discussed here.
- pimeys 7y ago
  Exactly! But the 1770 pro blocks enough noise to be used in a noisy studio and office space. No need for active noise cancellation or software to get a perfect bubble for your own thoughts. What I tried to say here is that maybe we're not witnessing progress with headphones such as the QC35. That maybe buying an expensive pair of headphones that needs to be replaced in every few years and which provide a subpar audio quality is not really that great. I understand the noise cancellation aspect in certain settings though. I own a pair of QC35's only for commuting. They work great for that, and the mediocre sound quality doesn't really bother me when I'm on the go. But the more I'm using them the more I'm getting worried are they going to be waste soon and if so, should I buy a new pair to replace them.

jacquesm 7y ago

Has there been any effort at making an open source version of these noise cancelling headphones? It would seem to make for a pretty neat project.

knorker 7y ago

> We are exploring options to allow you to modify how [self voice] works via the Bose Connect app Yes, please! Shut that fucking thing OFF. The only time I use the cable is because it doesn't have this terrible feature. Especially when I connect to something like an amateur radio there's zero reason to ruin the sound by mistaking listening to amateur radio as some sort of "call".

jiofih 7y ago
Wait, isn’t that feature only activated when you join a phone call? Why would it be activated for “amateur radio”?
- knorker 7y ago
  I don't know. Maybe the radios are using the "phone call" feature to relay the audio. Maybe they have to, in order for the mic to work if you transmit, without delay. I've not tried transmitting, because listening is so bad, thanks to this feature.

McTossOut 7y ago

If only everyone was always this responsive.

kim0 7y ago

While we're at it, any recommendations for having phone calls in noisy environments?

kim0 7y ago
Preferably true wireless ones

jjoonathan 7y ago

SelfVoice is the problem. > In several conversations with customers, there was some confusion about noise cancellation function during a phone call or other Bluetooth HFP connection. Yeah, because having multiple bluetooth profiles, one of which has good cancellation and one of which doesn't due to SelfVoice is disastrous UX. Anything that perturbs the bluetooth settings on sound-producing devices and switches the default connected endpoint is going to trigger a severe degradation of the headphones' noise cancellation and noise floor. There is no light, or button, or obvious cue to indicate that the device is in a special state. Fixing the problem requires understanding this weird, hidden behavior (strike one) and dealing with bluetooth settings (strike two) on a device that isn't the headphone (strike three). I am very happy to hear that they are doing something about it, because Windows has recently started clearing my repeated efforts to disable the SelfVoice endpoint. Even though I understand the problem completely (which is always the biggest hurdle) dealing with it has recently become a severe enough hassle that I've been considering ditching the Bose on account of it.

IceDane 7y ago
I bought the QC35-IIs through my works tech budget and was very disappointed to find out how they worked wrt. there being two different voice profiles, where one profile uses this selfvoice thing and has no ANC. This is particularly shite when trying to use it to play games while talking to friends on discord. Am I understanding you correctly that it's possible to somehow disable this feature or something? If so, can you share?
- jjoonathan 7y ago
  Yeah. Navigate to: Windows Key search > "Sound Settings" > Output > Manage Sound Devices The "Manage sound devices" panel should show a list of "Output devices" and a list of "Input devices." Click on one to disclose a Test button and a Disable button. You should see your headphones show up twice in the "Output devices" menu. Testing one of them will result in a clean sound, the other will result in shit sound (due to SelfVoice). Press "Disable" on the one with shit sound. Then do it again next time Windows Update runs and clears your user settings, and again, and again, because apparently clearing settings to default is something that Windows Update does now (I've seen it in other places too).

nvarsj 7y ago

Audio "issues" are incredibly subjective. The placebo effect is so strong with audio, which has led to an entire industry of snake oil and hyper subjective audio comments (like many seen in the replies here). Unless you blind A/B test, it is very hard to discern audio differences unless you have been professionally trained. Your ears and perception are most likely lying to you, especially with something as subtle as noice cancellation. I definitely sympathize with Bose here, it is hard to convince people with science when it comes to audio, unfortunately.

7ewis 7y ago

So is the general consensus that we can safely update now? Honestly I'm not great at noticing sound quality differences, unless there's a huge difference. But this one seemed to affect so many people I stayed away.

exabrial 7y ago

Now THAT is how you do a root cause analysis. I don't own a pair of these headphones, but I'm sending this out to my coworkers as an example of thorough work. Very very well done! Ironically... also looking at purchasing their product

Erwin 7y ago

The founder, professor Bose, had quite an interesting career and background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose > His father was an Indian freedom revolutionary[4] who, having been imprisoned for his political activities, fled Bengal in the 1920s in order to avoid further persecution by the British colonial police. > In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT on the condition that the shares never be sold.

MengerSponge 7y ago
This is a great episode about Bose's life and gift: https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift

skizm 7y ago

Why do the newer versions of these have to have freaking Alexa bundled with them. It's like a giant skid mark on an otherwise premium product. Bose does have the best noise cancelling functionality, but I'm simply never going to buy anything with Alexa, Cortana, or whatever Google's version of a voice assistant is paired to it. I deal with Siri crapware because Apple's incentives are slightly better aligned than these other advertising companies, but even that I hate and would get rid of in an instant if possible.

tomaha 7y ago
It's only marketing. There is no integrated assistant. It's a plain old button that can be used to activate one of these useless voice assistants on your phone because some people like it. If you're like me, you can use it as an extra control to modify noise cancellation.
- usmannk 7y ago
  Yeah, you can change the functionality of the button via the Bose app. However, the Bose app is awful.
  - chrismeller 7y ago
    Sure, it’s less than ideal, but come on. There are far worse apps and it’s required to update the firmware. At least on iOS you’re also prompted to install it when you connect to the headphones for the first time anyway, so I would imagine adoption is pretty high.
    - usmannk 7y ago
      I don't mean "it's not a high tech native experience with dark mode". I mean the app works poorly, all the time, and gets in the way of actually using the headphones. For example: whenever my headphones are paired with both my phone and laptop (because the app allows for two devices to be paired at once??) I have to manually disable my laptop in the app to listen to phone audio, the "drag down to connect" interface rarely works properly, etc. It really is a very poor experience when compared to BT headphones that don't require an app to manage their state.

iandanforth 7y ago

TLDR: PEBCAK But damn they spent a lot of time to get to that conclusion.

hank_z 7y ago

I hope all companies in this world will care customers like Bose does.

beams_of_light 7y ago

I have a pair of QC 35s which I can only use low/no NC on due to vertigo issues with "high" mode. Looks like Bose has done an extremely impressive job of fleshing out the problem. Well done.

crazygringo 7y ago

This is fascinating. Seems almost a little overkill, but if their reputation is at stake then you want to make sure. Now I just wish there were a similar investigation into the AirPods Pro update -- some people swearing it massively impaired the noise reduction, other people saying there's no difference and some tiny subset of people are always going to be imagining things (or taking a different train or working in a new office, like this article). At least the idea of being able to downgrade firmware ought to put people's minds at ease... but I can also see why technically that might be annoying to implement.

diebeforei485 7y ago

Apple's AirPods Pro have a similar issue where a firmware update nerfed the noise-cancelling[1]. Apple stopped pushing the update, but I'm been stuck with this bad firmware for nearly four months now. The firmware updates are installed silently in the background while AirPods are charging, so I didn't have any choice in the matter. FWIW - I agree with installing updates automatically silently in the background because it solves a ton of issues for both developers and 99% of users. But the developers must thoroughly test the performance in real-world prior to pushing updates to users AND offer a way to downgrade. 1. https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellation-update/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellatio...

heelix 7y ago

There was a time where I likely spent more time on an airplane than some pilots. For years, I used their older QC3 all day long.. traveling and working. At some point, well past any warranty, they started to make a popping sound. They essentially just swapped it out for free. I picked up a pair of the A20 aviation headsets, just before they announced the Bluetooth update. (I also fly, but when I do they are the bug smashers, not the commercial ones) They turned around and cross shipped a new module for my headset free of charge. I did end up replacing the older QC3's with one of the QC35 wireless headsets. Nothing but positive things to say about their kit. For the most part, it has been used hard and worked flawlessly. When I have had an issue - they took really good care of me. Would reccomend. (With the QC35, I've really not needed to do anything with them. They just connected to my Linux box and Andriod tables OOTB.)

neycoda 7y ago

"our full engineering analysis determined that the degradation in all cases was the result of hardware related issues with earcushions, aftermarket parts, or mechanical integrity" Specifically, damage caused by the customer from use or misuse, or buying inadequate replacement parts from 3rd party manufacturers.

Schwolop 7y ago

There's a potential systemic bias involved in this that the report does not consider (unsurprisingly). What if the particular firmware caused hearing damage that now causes these users to think the noise-cancelling performance has deteriorated? I have no reason to think this is the case, but wow, what a confounder to have to deal with!