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Hardware Microphone Disconnect in Mac and iPad
- Edd314159 7y ago> iPad models beginning in 2020 also feature the hardware microphone disconnect. When an MFI compliant case (including those sold by Apple) is attached to the iPad and closed, the microphone is disconnected in hardware does this mean Hey Siri won't work on an iPad with a closed cover?
- layoutIfNeeded 7y agohttps://forums.imore.com/ask-question/394180-hey-siri-feature-not-working-my-smart-cover-closed.html https://forums.imore.com/ask-question/394180-hey-siri-featur...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Ceno 7y agoThat is precisely the behaviour I see on my iPad Pro from 2018
- randyrand 7y agoDoesn't MFI use software to do verification? If the presence of a MFI software command is what disables and enables the microphone, that sure sounds like software control. Sure, maybe its software on a peripheral that controls it. But it's software never the less.
- Qasaur 7y agoI always wondered why the microphone on my MacBook Pro would stop working whenever I closed the lid when using my external monitor. Glad to hear the "bug" exists for good reasons.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y agoWhat are users meant to do if they want to use their Mac's microphone while the laptop lid is closed?
- schuke 7y agoI'm digressing but I've always been curious why people want to use the closed-lid mode. All it does seems to be saving a some desktop space. I place my laptop beneath an external monitor, this way I get a very good second display, a nice keyboard, and a very nice extra touchpad for scrolling and all kinds of multitouch gestures. Probably has benefits cooling the machine as well.
- knute 7y agoIn my office I run lid closed because I have 3 nice large monitors and I don't really have room for a fourth. It's nicer to have three displays that match in size and resolution than 2+1 that doesn't.
- bni 7y agoI open it a little bit, just enough for the mic to work, in these cases. Then close the lid completely when im done with the call
- diebeforei485 7y ago- Use headphones that have a mic - Use a webcam with an inbuilt mic (fairly common) - Use an dedicated mic Plenty of options here.
- myth_buster 7y agoI think having different sources for sound and mic causes echo.
- geekifier 7y agoDespite Apple's anti-competitive ways, I am often impressed with their attention to details such as these. Glad there is still sanity out there in the world of "always listening" devices.
- thebruce87m 7y agoI wish people would qualify their “Apple Hate” every time they mention it. It would make it easier to know who’s opinions to discount. An alarming number of people still believe Apple slowed down all their old phones for the sole purpose of selling them new ones for example.
- simonh 7y agoI wish we lived in a world where people only said things like that they believed.
- freedomben 7y agoI think we do. The problem is that people often believe things based on perception and snap judgement, which are often wrong. And once somebody has some "knowledge" even if gained through unreliable means, displacing that "knowledge" is rather difficult. It's an artifact from evolving in a world where snap judgments were often the difference between life and death, and the person who assumed the rustle in bushes was just the wind, but it was actually a tiger, did not live to propagate. However, the paranoid person who thought it was a tiger every time the wind rustled the bushes, did survive to propagate. Our current political system is pretty good evidence of people believing strongly enough in ideology to destroy the lives of others. I think they really do believe the stuff, and that's why it's so dangerous.
- simonh 7y agoI don't know. I suspect a lot of people spreading fake news, conspiracy theories and crap like this know perfectly well it's rubbish.
- pulse7 7y agoI would rather have a physical (manual) switch to disconnect the power to the microphone and camera hardware on all my devices (laptop, phone, ...). This way there would be no need to trust the Security Chip and there would be no attack vectors and possible future zero-day attacks on the security chip...
- deadmutex 7y agoI think it makes a lot sense to have it on devices like the Nest Mini: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/8/23/20828854/google-home-mini-mute-switch-button-privacy-microphones https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/8/23/20828854/g... I am not sure if I'd want my phone to have another button just for that though.
- bb123 7y agoThat’s fair enough but you have to accept you’re in the huge minority there. The average consumer does not want to have to flip a switch for every microphone on their devices when they want to use it. Not to mention the reliability implications of adding more moving parts and dust/water ingress points. There has to be a trade off between usability and security.
- jimhefferon 7y agoSo, the device comes with a slide switch, set to on. A user who cares can slide it off.
- jsiepkes 7y agoIt's not that simple. People will accidentally set the switch to off and won't understand why their mic doesn't work anymore. At this point there is a good chance they will call support. This also happend with the hardware wifi kill switches we used to have on notebooks.
- alexis_fr 7y agoSince we’re integrated between OS and hardware on Apple platforms, they could implement a “Turn on your microphone” dialog. I think this support excuse is too commonly used, when there is obvious value in the result. He’s not a minority, even my grandparents shared the photo of Mark Zuckerberg saying “If this guy hides his camera, so should you”...
- est31 7y agoIt's weird how the "hardware disconnect" term for the pre-2019 devices was stretched to include a firmware, that is software-only, feature. Kinda like the "end to end encryption" of Zoom. Glad that Apple resolved this for newer devices. I'd still love to see wiring diagrams or explanations how it actually works. Which kind of circuit do they use? Is it the power line that's suppressed or the data line? Is it only an analog line that's suppressed and if you tune up internal amp you might be getting some residual? About the iPads, what does their "hardware" based microphone disconnect entail? It has to be some electro-magnetic based communication instead of currents so the circuit has to be more complicated. I doubt it's done without using any kind of software but would be glad to hear otherwise. Overall, I'm glad that they are responding to concerns and working to address them.
- jwr 7y ago> I'd still love to see wiring diagrams or explanations how it actually works. Which kind of circuit do they use? I'd like to see that too, but I don't think we will. I suspect it's a magnetic switch and I'm also curious which lines it cuts. FWIW, you can still get some audio from an accelerometer if you can get it to report data with a high enough frequency. Not sure what you mean about iPhones, their information does not mention the iPhone (and I would not expect it to).
- est31 7y ago> Not sure what you mean about iPhones, their information does not mention the iPhone (and I would not expect it to). I meant iPads but got confused. Thanks for pointing it out.
- derefr 7y agoI’d think the raw pressure-level input from the force sensors on the trackpad would be even more accurate. It’s essentially an array of transducers already.
- markrages 7y agoAn accelerometer on a physical object is a force sensor. F=mA
- amelius 7y agoWe only get guaranteed privacy when the lid is closed?
- danieldk 7y agoThe problem is that otherwise "Hey Siri" wouldn't work on (newer) Macs. Still, you can use something like Micro Snitch to track webcam/mic use. Also, in macOS Catalina (I don't remember if this was the case in prior versions), applications are not permitted by default to use the mic or camera and have to request permission. These are perhaps not as good as a hardware disconnect, but I think Apple is trying to balance privacy and usability here. It is clear from what Apple is doing in hardware and software that they do care about privacy. Linux and AFAIK Windows do not provide that level of privacy, since applications have unfettered access to Cameras and Mics. (Of course, a part of the Linux community is trying to improve this through Pipewire, Flatpak, and portals.)
- stevekemp 7y agoAs you say applications have to request permissions to access the mic/camera, here's a good writeup of how that was broken recently: https://www.ryanpickren.com/webcam-hacking https://www.ryanpickren.com/webcam-hacking
- danieldk 7y agoThat was not broken. What was broken was origin validation in Safari. There is a difference between a vulnerability in the OS permissions system (which this was not) to control mic/camera permissions and a vulnerability in an application that has already has OS camera permissions. If you do not give an application permission to access the camera, then vulnerabilities in those applications do not lead to camera access. (Unfortunately though, Safari is not controlled through this permission system, probably because it was provided through the OS. Permissions can be controlled for other browsers. IMO this should be fixed by Apple.)
- stevekemp 7y ago
- x775 7y agoI did not realise this feature existed. Am pleasantly surprised.
- jasoneckert 7y agoSo, the next target for malware creators would be to attack the software that communicates a "lid closed" event to the T2 chip.
- chithanh 7y agoThere exist easier targets, such as the loudspeakers which can be turned into microphones. https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot17/woot17-paper-guri.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot17/woot17...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- alias_neo 7y agoI have a suspicion (based on absolutely no evidence, other than that I'm an Engineer, and expect Apple has some brain cells); that the way this feature works is with a magnet and reed switch to physically disconnect the lines with no "communication" via software/firmware or other electronic means; Based on their "hardware only" wording for the newer devices, I'm inclined to believe this is the case.
- qwertox 7y agoWhy not a manual switch? I rarely use the microphone on those devices.
- vbezhenar 7y agoMechanical switches are prone to fault.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoCompared to what? In my average day, I experience 5-10 software failures/crashes/errors on various web apps, mobile apps, in windows, etc. The last time I've seen a hardware switch fail was 2 years ago. Further to that, hardware failures are predictable. Lifetime of switches is well know, and they are easily replaced. Good luck fixing a software glitch by yourself as a user. Consider that a laptop already comes with a hundred switches in the keyboard, and they can easily last a decade if you dont spill coffee on it.
- vbezhenar 7y agoSoftware failures are fixed by reboots/patches. Hardware failures are fixed by service. And that service costs much more for vendor. Very few users are ready to replace hardware switch in their laptops. Keyboard is a different kind of switch and they are major source of pain for many users. My macbook is broken because of keyboard, for example. One reason why new hardware devices like phones and tablets are coming without keyboard is this reason. Apple is not "brave enough" to replace macbook keyboard with touch panel, but they would do that if users would accept it.
- ClumsyPilot 7y agoKeyboard are a source of pain for many users? Where is this even coming from? Large tablets have been around for nearly a decade now, and people that write novels and word files all day still use a real keyboard. If what you are saying was true, everyone who types for a living would use iPad pro or equivalent. Secondly, patches and reboots are a problem, not a solution. Users do not need to replace switches themselves. My father is not an IT nerd, he uses his laptop for work. After the keyboard broke, he took it to a nearby repair store and they replaced it for $20. If in a few years it breaks again, he can do it again (ofc laptop might be worth replacing for performance reasons, but that's different). To him software crashes are far more disruptive, he cant call Acer or Apple and give them $20, $2000 or even $w0,0000 and get them to fix a sound driver or whatever. He just has to sit there and hope that some day one of the updates, without proper patch notes, will fix the problem. Leaving feedback on the forums is about as reliable as praying for rain or doing blood sacrifice to cure the plague.
- augustl 7y agoDoes other manufacturers does this? Maybe it's a standard thing that Dell, HP and others do as well?
- mikro2nd 7y agoPurism do hardware switches for mic/camera and wifi on their Librem range. (Wish I could afford one of those machines!)
- nicebill8 7y ago> All Mac portables with the Apple T2 Security Chip feature a hardware disconnect that ensures the microphone is disabled whenever the lid is closed. vs. > On the 13-inch MacBook Pro and MacBook Air computers with the T2 chip, and on the 15-inch MacBook Pro portables from 2019 or later, this disconnect is implemented in hardware alone. Do these statements not contradict each other for the 15" 2018 MacBook Pro, for example, which includes a T2 chip? This would also contradict earlier documentation provided on the T2 chip by Apple themselves [1]. From [1]: > All Mac portables with the Apple T2 Security Chip feature a hardware disconnect that ensures that the microphone is disabled whenever the lid is closed. This disconnect is implemented in hardware alone, and therefore prevents any software, even with root or kernel privileges in macOS, and even the software on the T2 chip, from engaging the microphone when the lid is closed. [1] https://www.apple.com/euro/mac/shared/docs/Apple_T2_Security_Chip_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/euro/mac/shared/docs/Apple_T2_Security... (October 2018, page 13)
- alias_neo 7y agoI don't think they contradict each other. The way I read it is, the former, have hardware disconnects controlled by some software/firmware, such as a relay/MOSFET or something of that kind; an electronic switch. The latter I read as being hardware _only_; "only" being the key addition to this sentence. I would expect this implementation to be something like a reed switch to magnetically disconnect the lines _physically_ rather than electronically.
- hamiltonkibbe 7y agoI don't think the distinction is a FET vs a reed switch -- the means of blocking electrons, rather, it's in what decides whether that switch is open or closed. I would consider a circuit like this driving the FET/relay/etc. to be a "hardware disconnect" (using HDL to describe the circuit, not suggesting it should be programmable logic): module mic_enable (lid_closed, lots, of, signals, mic_enable); input lid_closed, lots, of, signals; output mic_enable; assign mic_enable = !lid_closed & lots & of & other & signals; endmodule
- 1f60c 7y ago> (The camera is not disconnected in hardware, because its field of view is completely obstructed with the lid closed.) I love this aside xD
- dvfjsdhgfv 7y agogreat! now give us back the hardware switch
- placard 7y agoThis is not enough, the sane solution needs physical switches like the Lenovo T400 had for WiFi. Where are the real laptops? I'm tired of the glossy short screens, lack of ethernet connections and crappy keyboards (this applies both to Lenovo and Apple).
- abinaya_rl 7y agoAny idea does other manufacturers does this? Dell or Lenovo? I'm impressed with Apple's attention to details like this! ️
- mikece 7y agoWhy doesn’t Apple have an option for buying a MacBook Pro with the camera and mic physically disconnected? They could sell this option at an appropriately priced premium — along with a stylish Bluetooth-connected, 4K webcam with phased array mics for a very reasonably $499. I’m sure they would sell hundreds of thousands of them. If ANYBODY could monetize “security chic” it’s Apple.
- frosted-flakes 7y agoHow hard is it to stick a piece of tape over the camera and super-glue the microphone?
- mikece 7y agoThe underlying sensors are still active. I typically just keep my Logitech G430 headphones -- with the physical mute switch active -- plugged into my computer at all times because the system uses that for sound capture... except Siri/Cortana/Ubuntu One hear nothing when those are plugged in.
- reaperducer 7y agoCamera, easy. Microphone: Hard, and might contribute to thermal issues.
- kevindong 7y agoI think you're vastly overestimating the demand.
- swebs 7y agoBut how am I supposed to use my computer when the lid is closed?
- z5h 7y ago"The camera is not disconnected in hardware, because its field of view is completely obstructed with the lid closed". How long until someone realizes audio data can be extracted by from the noise generated by a camera in the dark?
- InitialLastName 7y agoSource? Not because I disbelieve that it's possible in practice, but how much data can you really get out of that? A MacBook Pro camera operates at 60 Hz; unless you can interpolate samples some way I'm not thinking of (and that would necessarily degrade your resolution), the highest frequency you can capture is 30 Hz. Technically, this could be extracting audio, but it's not audio that meaningfully overlaps with the human experience.
- z5h 7y agoNo source, but there’s just been such a long history of side channel attacks, and similar research (https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/mit-extract-sound-audio-silent-video-picture-information https://nofilmschool.com/2014/08/mit-extract-sound-audio-sil...) that it makes one wonder if a non-hardware disconnect fix is sufficient.
- ricardobeat 7y ago> high-speed camera that captured 2,000 to 6,000 frames per second
- z5h 7y agoLiterally the next lines > In other experiments, however, they used an ordinary digital camera. Because of a quirk in the design of most cameras’ sensors, the researchers were able to infer information about high-frequency vibrations even from video recorded at a standard 60 frames per second.
- tudorizer 7y agoHold on. How is this hardware? Is there a physical button/hinge that is triggered? If so, the chip shouldn't matter. Or is this some piece of logic emebedded in the chip itself or the firmware of some other component, which makes this solution a software one.
- paxswill 7y agoMy understanding is that the chip is a proxy for when they started including it in the design. Similar to how some older macOS/OS X releases had requirements like, "faster than 867MHz", or "newer than 2012" instead of, "GPU must support Quartz Extreme" or "CPU must support XYZ instructions".
- hwc 7y agoI'd rather have a manual switch for both the microphone and the camera.
- adrianmonk 7y agoI would too, on every device, but I don't know how the industry is going to get past two barriers to achieving this: 1. It costs a little bit of money, and hardware designers love to minimize costs and eliminate parts. 2. It's not idiot-proof enough for a lot of people. You're going to have people who can't find the switch. And who complain and generate support costs. And annoy their coworkers by being muted during video conferences. Maybe you could fix the second one by having a flashing light on the switch that says, "Please switch this switch! The microphone is needed!" This could also increase awareness of when things are trying to use the microphone. although it would go against the first point because it's yet another part.
- reaperducer 7y agoI'd rather have a manual switch for both the microphone and the camera. Then buy a laptop with those features. If any exist.
- bschwindHN 7y agoPerhaps this is the hardware people are speculating about with magnetic switches? https://www.ifixit.com/News/33952/apple-put-a-hinge-sensor-in-the-16-macbook-pro-what-could-it-be-for https://www.ifixit.com/News/33952/apple-put-a-hinge-sensor-i... Though it seems their "hardware only" solution was on earlier models than that, so maybe not.
- walterbell 7y agoFeature request: iOS system-wide option to disable all optical cameras. FaceID can continue to use the IR camera.
- enriquto 7y agoWhy is apple so allergic to physical switches, directly switchable by the user?
- lotsofpulp 7y agoI’m guessing easier to break, causes more troubleshooting issues, looks cleaner without it. The less moving components there are, the less warranty and tech support they probably have to field too. Swapping out devices is probably less costly than fixing parts of it.
- enriquto 7y agoDepending on your point of view, only the second "reason" is true. Software switches like the one described in the article (despite its name) are definitely easier to break since they can be hacked by software. No need to have physical access to the computer. A discrete switch definitely looks cleaner than a piece of duct tape, and is much easier to turn on/off. If you want to "switch off" your mic, bad luck.
- dorongrinstein 7y agoI asked my Alexa if this is true, but she didn't know. Anyway, this article makes me feel safer. I'll keep my Mac shut.
- tachyonbeam 7y agoWould also be nice to have little hardware LEDs that automatically turn on when the microphone or camera are connected. That way you are sure to know if they are recording.
- mkchoi212 7y agoHmmm I wonder if anyone has done a teardown of the MacBook to show how these microphone disconnect mechanisms work.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- 6d6b73 7y agoHow about disconnecting it when you're near the laptop and the lid is open because you're .. I don't know... working on it?
- _bxg1 7y agoApple in 2020 is such a weird thing. Some of the things they produce - mostly in the software realm, I guess - have really careless and egregious bugs and design problems. But then they still come out and make amazing little features like this one that nobody thought to ask for, and don't get highly publicized, but really speak to that classic detail-oriented Apple mindset. It's like there's a huge cultural schism running through the middle of the company, or something.
- zionic 7y agoIs it too much to ask for a small LED next to each camera indicating if the sensor is powered? Should be standard on every phone.
- artiscode 7y agoDitto. Or even an old-school LED that indicates data transmission like the HDD LED in old computer cases. Make it in hardware so that if any data is sent through the wire, it lights up.
- throwawaysea 7y agoI think this is a positive thing and like the idea of being protected even if the machine is compromised. However I would still prefer the convenience of a switch in addition to this.
- fortran77 7y agoMy Lenovo Laptop has a little physical shutter you can slide over the camera. It's very handy.
- morpheuskafka 7y agoThis may be Apple's first real response to the checkm8 vulnerability. It had already been fixed on the current iOS devices as of its disclosure, but the T2 chip is still shipping (and is currently on computers that will last for a decade versus phones that last two years) with no fix AFAIK. Apple could fix T2s going forward, but it would require a BootROM change not just a software update.
- sneak 7y agoAnd yet they’re still not encrypting iCloud Backups in a way that doesn’t allow Apple (and by extension the federal police) unfettered access to spying on iMessage. iCloud Backup is on by default, so this means that iMessage for almost every iPhone user is insecure. Incongruent. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
- jokit 7y agoIs there any chance this is true? If so, is there a way to trick the hardware into switching microphone off, even while being used?
- LeoPanthera 7y agoIt’s a physical magnetic switch. The article does explain this.
- jokit 7y agoI suppose what I meant to ask is, does anyone have any evidence of this being actually true? If so, how would one specifically mimic a closed lid? In lieu of us doing our own experiments, has anyone discovered the appropriate size/strength magnet, and precisely where it could be placed, or whatever other tactic, to activate this hardware switch?
- randyrand 7y agoBut magnet does not appear in the article?
- neycoda 7y agoBut I want to hardware disable it at any time...
- anonymousiam 7y agoDoes it really matter if they have a hardware disconnect, when the hardware disconnect is controlled by software? It's not truly a hardware disconnect unless there's a physical switch that the user can flip on or off.
- ctdonath 7y agoWhat said its software controlled? I’m assuming it’s a magnetic switch.
- elliottkember 7y ago> On the 13-inch MacBook Pro and MacBook Air computers with the T2 chip, and on the 15-inch MacBook Pro portables from 2019 or later, this disconnect is implemented in hardware alone.
- randyrand 7y agoBegs the question - how do they detect the lid is closed? In software? :P
- elliottkember 7y agoMagnets!
- mulmen 7y agoThis is pretty cool. Can I interact with the switch directly? Can I use a little magnet to trip the switch on an iPad? Or a mac? What about iPhones, do those have hardware disconnects too?
- jacquesm 7y agoThey do not reveal how this is implemented at the physical level. I'd think such a statement should be accompanied by a circuit diagram. The simplest and most fool proof method is a physical switch that interrupts the mic lead. If you want it to be 'pop and crackle' free you may have to fiddle a bit or use a make-before-break switch and connect the other line to ground. No amount of software hacking will get around that, and the position of the switch is good feedback that you are not open to eavesdropping. Anything less than that is likely hackable in some way or other.