5 ms·

Now that it's clear that Zoom developers do their best to do the worst, Apple should ban it entirely from their platforms

gtirloni 7y ago
If I buy an Apple device, it's mine, not Apple's to decide what I run on it.
- Nextgrid 7y ago
  Part of Apple's value proposition (to me at least) is that they are (supposed) to keep the bad guys away from the platform and have a huge influence on app developers to force them to comply with their rules.
  - amelius 7y ago
    But it provides a false sense of security.
    - valuearb 7y ago
      Statistics say otherwise.
      - pubstik 7y ago
        And yet, here we are. Again. Fact is that the 3rd party apple ecosystem just moves more slowly, breaking less, but fixing less too. Tradeoffs, not superiority, are the choices offered to consumers currently.
- ookdatnog 7y ago
  But Apple does, in fact, decide what you can run on your device, at least on iPhones. That's _the_ primary reason why I never even considered buying one. In fact I never understood why the HN crowd finds this policy so inoffensive. I've always considered it a massive intrusion on computing freedom.
  - jakear 7y ago
    If I can’t decide what I can run on my iPhone, then bad actors like Zoom can’t expect me to sideload their product. Everybody must go through apple’s flow, nobody can strongarm users into sideloading this kind of shit. It comes down to how you perceive the technology. My MacBook Pro is a tool I use for work that needs to be highly flexible and configurable, so I’m willing to work to maintain it. My iPhone is a convenience. I will not put work into maintaining a convenience, that defeats the point. Others view their phones differently, they may elect for more configuration at the expense of maintenance burden. That’s their choice to make. I for example view the idea of wanting to root ones phone to be absolutely insane.
    - ookdatnog 7y ago
      Interesting take. I always pictured my phone as a computing device, even though I don't use it like one really. Nevertheless I'm wary about giving up freedoms, even the ones I don't use. I'd say I mostly worry about slippery slopes. I use Linux as my main OS even though I don't really customize it that much and never looked at the source code, because I think it's important that critical infrastructure (as operating systems are) should be open. I don't use Spotify, not because I think it's too expensive or inconvenient, but because I worry that the convenience of streaming can train us to not insist on our freedom to listen to music in DRM-free formats (I don't know if it exists already, but I kind of expect platform-exclusive music to be a thing soon). I use Firefox, not because I think it's better than Chromium but because I want to help avoid Google completely dominating the web, even at its endpoints, etc etc. In the iPhone case, my worry is that if people get used to a smartphone not being a general purpose computing device, they can also be trained to view their laptop that way. I hope I don't need to argue why that would be a bad thing.
      - jakear 7y ago
        The difference is a phone has never been a general purpose computing device. So saying that we need to make them one so that laptops remain one sounds to me akin to “if we don’t have full control of the software our watches run, we might one day end up not having full control of the software our laptops run”. It’s a bizarre comparison to make in my opinion.
HumblyTossed 7y ago
They can't. Not now at least. For better or worse, people all over are using Zoom to stay in contact. If Apple banned it, it would be extremely difficult for them to not take a PR hit right now.
- ratww 7y ago
  Instead of banning, Apple should be working together with them to understand why they're resorting to such ugly hacks just to improve the installation UX, and use that feedback to improve macOS instead.
  - Longhanks 7y ago
    The installation UX needs not be improved. It needs the holes Zoom abused fixed, so that it can no longer circumvent asking for the user's final consent. There is absolutely no reason Zoom should get away with intentionally abusing the platform they're given.
    - jcelerier 7y ago
      > It needs the holes Zoom abused fixed, so that it can no longer circumvent asking for the user's final consent. but... installing zoom is already asking for my consent, through an OS prompt. Do you want to have to type your user password two times for every app you install or what ?
      - randoglando 7y ago
        It could prevent an app from posing as "System" in the prompt for starters.
    - ratww 7y ago
      It needs both.
- aledthemathguy 7y ago
  1. Built an app that violates every security concern. 2. Gain massive traction because of its easy-of-use ("it just works"). 3. Become ubiquitous. 4. Fix the security bugs. 5. You won.
gjs278 7y ago
counterpoint: fuck off
ajphdiv 7y ago
This software isn't available thru the mac app store. Hopefully, we never get to the point where Apple can decide what I can/can't run on my mac.
- gregoriol 7y ago
  When it's a known malware/security hole/misleading with intent, you'll be happy someone prevents it from running on your mac.

gtirloni 7y ago

If I buy an Apple device, it's mine, not Apple's to decide what I run on it.

Nextgrid 7y ago
Part of Apple's value proposition (to me at least) is that they are (supposed) to keep the bad guys away from the platform and have a huge influence on app developers to force them to comply with their rules.
- amelius 7y ago
  But it provides a false sense of security.
  - valuearb 7y ago
    Statistics say otherwise.
    - pubstik 7y ago
      And yet, here we are. Again. Fact is that the 3rd party apple ecosystem just moves more slowly, breaking less, but fixing less too. Tradeoffs, not superiority, are the choices offered to consumers currently.
ookdatnog 7y ago
But Apple does, in fact, decide what you can run on your device, at least on iPhones. That's _the_ primary reason why I never even considered buying one. In fact I never understood why the HN crowd finds this policy so inoffensive. I've always considered it a massive intrusion on computing freedom.
- jakear 7y ago
  If I can’t decide what I can run on my iPhone, then bad actors like Zoom can’t expect me to sideload their product. Everybody must go through apple’s flow, nobody can strongarm users into sideloading this kind of shit. It comes down to how you perceive the technology. My MacBook Pro is a tool I use for work that needs to be highly flexible and configurable, so I’m willing to work to maintain it. My iPhone is a convenience. I will not put work into maintaining a convenience, that defeats the point. Others view their phones differently, they may elect for more configuration at the expense of maintenance burden. That’s their choice to make. I for example view the idea of wanting to root ones phone to be absolutely insane.
  - ookdatnog 7y ago
    Interesting take. I always pictured my phone as a computing device, even though I don't use it like one really. Nevertheless I'm wary about giving up freedoms, even the ones I don't use. I'd say I mostly worry about slippery slopes. I use Linux as my main OS even though I don't really customize it that much and never looked at the source code, because I think it's important that critical infrastructure (as operating systems are) should be open. I don't use Spotify, not because I think it's too expensive or inconvenient, but because I worry that the convenience of streaming can train us to not insist on our freedom to listen to music in DRM-free formats (I don't know if it exists already, but I kind of expect platform-exclusive music to be a thing soon). I use Firefox, not because I think it's better than Chromium but because I want to help avoid Google completely dominating the web, even at its endpoints, etc etc. In the iPhone case, my worry is that if people get used to a smartphone not being a general purpose computing device, they can also be trained to view their laptop that way. I hope I don't need to argue why that would be a bad thing.
    - jakear 7y ago
      The difference is a phone has never been a general purpose computing device. So saying that we need to make them one so that laptops remain one sounds to me akin to “if we don’t have full control of the software our watches run, we might one day end up not having full control of the software our laptops run”. It’s a bizarre comparison to make in my opinion.

HumblyTossed 7y ago

They can't. Not now at least. For better or worse, people all over are using Zoom to stay in contact. If Apple banned it, it would be extremely difficult for them to not take a PR hit right now.

ratww 7y ago
Instead of banning, Apple should be working together with them to understand why they're resorting to such ugly hacks just to improve the installation UX, and use that feedback to improve macOS instead.
- Longhanks 7y ago
  The installation UX needs not be improved. It needs the holes Zoom abused fixed, so that it can no longer circumvent asking for the user's final consent. There is absolutely no reason Zoom should get away with intentionally abusing the platform they're given.
  - jcelerier 7y ago
    > It needs the holes Zoom abused fixed, so that it can no longer circumvent asking for the user's final consent. but... installing zoom is already asking for my consent, through an OS prompt. Do you want to have to type your user password two times for every app you install or what ?
    - randoglando 7y ago
      It could prevent an app from posing as "System" in the prompt for starters.
  - ratww 7y ago
    It needs both.
aledthemathguy 7y ago
1. Built an app that violates every security concern. 2. Gain massive traction because of its easy-of-use ("it just works"). 3. Become ubiquitous. 4. Fix the security bugs. 5. You won.

gjs278 7y ago

counterpoint: fuck off

ajphdiv 7y ago

This software isn't available thru the mac app store. Hopefully, we never get to the point where Apple can decide what I can/can't run on my mac.

gregoriol 7y ago
When it's a known malware/security hole/misleading with intent, you'll be happy someone prevents it from running on your mac.