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Here are their demands: https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency-walk-off-ebdf11b6995a https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-em

Here are their demands: https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency-walk-off-ebdf11b6995a https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency... - Safety precautions at no cost to workers — PPE (at minimum hand sanitizer, disinfectant wipes/sprays and soap). - Hazard pay — an extra $5 per order and defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. - An extension and expansion of pay for workers impacted by COVID-19 — anyone who has a doctor’s note for either a preexisting condition that’s a known risk factor or requiring a self-quarantine. - The deadline to qualify for these benefits must be extended beyond April 8th.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago
> defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. There was controversy in the past with DoorDash effectively pocketing the tips (https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-general-sues-doordash-pocketing-tips-67138480 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-gene...) which makes me wary about tipping in these apps -- are InstaCart and Amazon doing the same?
- mackey 7y ago
  At least with Amazon/Whole Foods, it says the entire tip goes to the workers.
- pen2l 7y ago
  I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. Something strange by the way, is that tipping is variable. Eg my ~$110 order yesterday automatically tacked on a $7 tip, my ~$50 order of three days had a $5 dollar tip automatically added. Anyone have an idea how they are calculating this?
  - atwebb 7y ago
    >I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. If I remember correctly, the prior controversy was that DoorDash (or whomever) would give them the tip 100% but then take an equal or weighted portion from the company's contribution.
  - droopyEyelids 7y ago
    The way it has worked in the past is that drivers get 100% of the tip, but the tip amount is subtracted from their base pay. Company tells the worker a delivery pays $15, you tip $5, the company reduces their portion to $10, the worker gets $15 total. You tip $10? The company pays $5, worker still walks away with $15.
    - RHSeeger 7y ago
      Given that DD also had a minimum they would pay, regardless of tip, that can also be stated as - We will pay you $X - We will make sure you make at least $Y If you make the wording changes - $X == <wait staff minimum wage> - $Y == <normal minimum wage> Then it becomes clear that this is exactly how restaurants work; with the caveat that it's per delivery instead of per hour.
      - gkop 7y ago
        This framing would certainly be more transparent. I doubt though that DoorDash would want to explicitly adopt a compensation practice that's illegal in seven states including their home state of California (https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped).
        RHSeeger 7y ago
        Assuming you take == as "works the same as" not "is the same monetary value", then what about it is illegal?
  - lipstone 7y ago
    I imagine something like "number of items" or "number of bags" or "total weight/volume of order" is an input into the default tip formula. Which makes sense, as the quantity is what actually matters to the delivery person.
  - tmh79 7y ago
    The issue at doordash is the following: (1) Drivers are paid in 2 factors, a tip provided by the user, and a per delivery fee provided by doordash thats variable, and generally in the industry is between 10 and 20% of the basket cost (2) doordash additionaly guaranteed a total "minimum compensation" per delivery up front that was like ~20% of the cost of the basket (3) Doordash would use the tips users paid to offset the amount they would pay drivers in order to meet the "minimum comp guarantee", so if you ordered 100 dollars in food, and tip 20 dollars, and the minimum compensation on the order was 20 dollars,doordash would pay the driver nothing, and your whole tip would sub for driver pay. If instead you tipped 0 dollars on your 100 dollar basket, doordash would pay the driver 20 dollars out of its own funds to meet the minimum comp. Likewise if you tipped 10 dollars, doordash woud pay 10 dollars.
- idunno246 7y ago
  even if they technically do, i can almost guarantee you the product managers are looking at the total income per hour going to these workers inclusive of tips, and tuning their base pay or whatever they call their contribution to hit a specific total based on average/median/etc tips.
  - neonate 7y ago
    > i can almost guarantee you In other words, you don't know. I agree with you that they shouldn't be scummy about this but I don't think it's fair to make up that they are.
    - idunno246 7y ago
      true, i dont know for sure, but i used to work in the space and it's how everyone i knew thought about courier compensation. theres only so many dollars a customer will pay for delivery[during normal times, its probably less elastic now] whether it's tips or delivery/service fees, and after cost of goods only so much left.
      - neonate 7y ago
        I appreciate hearing about your experience.
- malandrew 7y ago
  Instacart was doing the same, but they changed course. Doordash is/was doing the same, said they would change course, did not, got call out on it and in the end I don't know if they every actually changed their policy or found some other slimy way to technically abide but still take advantage of their partners. Amazon I believe tends to do everything through third party companies and there really isn't tipping with Amazon as far as I know, but that might have changed since I haven't ordered an Amazon Fresh order in ages. From other comments here, it sounds like they now having tipping.
- tedivm 7y ago
  InstaCart experimented with stealing tips like DoorDash does, but they backed down when drivers and customers both got really upset about it. Now all of the tips go to the shopper, and the tips are not considered when calculating base pay.
- yig 7y ago
  According to this Reddit post, Amazon Prime Now plays the same shenanigans with the tip: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/9ji1af/prime_now_tips/e6s84s2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/9ji1af/p... "Amazon will never disclose any information about specific deliveries beyond what you see in the app before and after the delivery. They will not tell you who tipped or how much. The only ways to tell if a customer tipped are cash tips and blocks with only one order completed, including instant offers, for which the earnings exceed the initial offer." "If an offer shows a pay range, the base rate is never more than the low end of that range. For example, if you accept an offer for a 2 hour block with pay of $36-50, anything you earn for that block beyond $36 is from tips." "Amazon does not technically steal tips, but the end result is the same as if they did. They call it variable base pay. They state in the contract that 100% of tips are passed on to the driver. This is true. However, they often lower the base rate enough so the net earnings is the minimum stated in the block offer. Think of it like a piece of string. The entire length of the string is your earnings. The right side of the string is tips and the left side is base pay. They promise never to cut the right side of the string. They cut the left side instead. It still results in a shorter piece of string." "If the base pay plus tips ends up being more than the offered pay for the block, you will get paid the full amount. So if you accept a 2 hour block for $36-50 and get $55 in tips, you will be paid at least $55. They don't lower the base rate on every block and they don't always lower it the same amount. They say it's based on demand. For a 2 hour block, after tips, you might be paid $36 or you might be paid $80. It just depends." "I'm not sure how Amazon determines the suggested tip for orders that include tips. I just played around in the Prime Now app and it seems like the suggested tip is a percentage of the total item cost, before shipping and tax, but is a minimum of $5. Customers can, of course, change it to whatever they want."
  - drstewart 7y ago
    Why would you believe anything on reddit? That post and most others on reddit essentially boil down to "I don't have proof, but this feels right because it's cynical so that's what I'm going with."
  - tomp 7y ago
    I don't understand. If Amazon is promising to pay you at least $36, then the "base pay" must be $36 - that's what you'd be getting if there was $0 tips - and either you're getting all the tips (i.e. if there's any tips, you're paid more than $36), or Amazon is lying and stealing tips (i.e. if there's $2 in tips, they reduce ("steal") your base pay to $34 so you're still paid just $36).
- cjhopman 7y ago
  That controversy never made sense to me. Most restaurants in the US "effectively pocket the tips" in the same way. In fact, any servers that are being paid roughly minimum wage up to minimum wage + $5 could have their tips pocketed in the same way. Here's a question for people who were so upset by this. Let's say you have a bunch of tipped employees that you directly pay $10/hour and with tips they average $20/hour. You have two problems though, (1) your employees complain that during some shifts they are making barely over their base pay and (2) potential new hires are worried that they won't make as much in tips as you say current employees make. The question is: would it be taking advantage of those employees to change the employment to include a guaranteed $15/hour minimum, for any shift where they make less than that you'd pay them extra to hit the minimum?
  - Archio 7y ago
    It blows my mind how many people don't understand why what DoorDash did was bad. The comparison to DoorDash isn't table service in a restaurant, it's ordering food for delivery to your house and then giving cash to the driver. Where does that cash go? The driver's pocket. That process & the cultural understanding of it has literally been around as long as the concept of tipping. Here's the real question that answers why people are "upset". If you did a poll of 100 people ordering on DoorDash, and asked them "when you tip on your order, where does the money go", what do you think people would say? 99/100 of them would ABSOLUTELY say "to the driver" and that is everything that is wrong with what DoorDash did. I struggle to engage sincerely in argument with anyone claiming otherwise.
    - cjhopman 7y ago
      > If you did a poll of 100 people ordering on DoorDash, and asked them "when you tip on your order, where does the money go", what do you think people would say? 99/100 of them would ABSOLUTELY say "to the driver" and that is everything that is wrong with what DoorDash did. How is that different from servers in a restaurant? If you asked that question of people who give a tip to their servers at a restaurant they would also say that that money goes to their server, despite the fact that the federally mandated earnings guarantee (assuming the restaurant doesn't have its own higher one) means that that money, effectively, might just be going to the restaurant. > it's ordering food for delivery to your house and then giving cash to the driver And would you be upset if Domino's gave an earnings guarantee to their drivers?
- david_w 7y ago
  But how do they even know? If the driver stuffs it away in their sock or whatever how do they even know ?
  - rfrey 7y ago
    The tips are generally dine through the app and passes on by the company.
- c3534l 7y ago
  I discovered I was accidentally undertipping people because of this. I had set it to 20% and it got reset at some point. I felt like a shitty person for it, but systematically underpaying people who work on tips is such a fucked up thing to do.
deleted 7y ago
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gullyfur 7y ago
> Hazard pay How many industries offer a hazard pay? I know the military does for conflict zones, what amount do they offer?
- elicash 7y ago
  Did a quick search and "Trader Joe’s and Walmart employees have received bonuses, while Target, Whole Foods, Amazon, and the Texas grocery store chain H-E-B are offering $2 per hour raises." https://civileats.com/2020/03/20/breaking-grocery-store-workers-heroes-to-the-community-during-coronavirus-to-get-hazard-pay/ https://civileats.com/2020/03/20/breaking-grocery-store-work... May also be coming to doctors, nurses (if it isn't there already): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-administration-looking-at-hazard-pay-for-doctors-nurses-on-front-lines-of-coronavirus-fight/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-administration-looki... Customs workers, corrections officers, and a ton of other jobs also negotiating it. In Philly, among them are police, firefighters, sanitation workers, health care workers. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/philadelphia-to-revisit-its-time-and-a-half-hazard-pay-during-coronavirus/2340091/ https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/philadelphia-to-r...
- ims 7y ago
  You can see the monthly rates here: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Special-and-Incentive-Pays/HDIP/ https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Special-and-Incentive-Pa...
- sailfast 7y ago
  The military offers a number of different pay scales for this, but I'm reading an extra $225 per paycheck tax free. https://militarybenefits.info/military-allowance-incentive-bonus-special-pay/ https://militarybenefits.info/military-allowance-incentive-b... As for "who typically offers this" I would argue that this isn't quite like a "normal" time. Many people are putting their health on the line to come to work which is not something that is normally part of the decisionmaking process for their regular wage. As a result of that increased risk and because of the huge demand for their labor a large increase in pay makes a lot of sense (even if we take the "combat pay" stuff out of the equation. Demand-alone would increase their wages)
cryoshon 7y ago
honestly, i'm surprised that their demands are so few and so modest. i was expecting significantly higher numbers for the hazard pay portion of their demands. i can't understand what might prevent amazon and instacart from assenting to these demands as soon as they have the logistical ability to provide the necessary items to their staff. the national situation isn't permissive of corporations dragging their feet when essential services are down at the moment. on the other hand, workers treated to a hopefully quick victory will not forget this when the pandemic ends. if we're lucky, the balance of power will shift to their favor.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  >honestly, i'm surprised that their demands are so few and so modest. i was expecting significantly higher numbers for the hazard pay portion of their demands. "Shhh... don't let the Plebes know they're still getting robbed. We're going to fight this, negotiate something a little lower and still come out way ahead." -Our Corporate Lords and Vassels In all seriousness, it goes to show you how little people have come to expect. Some of these strikes historically have had unrealistic expectations in requests from what I recall. Labor rights have declined so far in this country that demands from strikes are now almost fully reasonable, leaving little room to negotiate back from.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  Workers can only demand what the market will bear, and considering there are a lot of people looking for any sort of work right now, and training up to become one of these workers doesn't take long, these workers aren't in a position to demand much. Hazard pay is moot for workers who have already caught COVID-19 too, which I would guess is a reasonably chunk of delivery workers by now.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    With the federal government putting what is essentially temporary UBI (as part of the "CARES Act" stimulus program) in place for those who have lost work or hours due to COVID, this is the best time to flex your labor muscle. If Amazon does not meet their demands, these folks can fall back to unemployment insurance for up to 10 months. I apologize for the wall of text below, feel free to minimize this comment ([-] sign next to delete above), but it is crucial to demonstrate how broad this support is to the working class. https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (F.A.Q. on Stimulus Checks, Unemployment and the Coronavirus Plan) > Benefits will be expanded in an attempt to replace the average worker’s paycheck, explained Andrew Stettner, a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, a public policy research group. The average worker earns about $1,000 a week, and unemployment benefits often replace roughly 40 to 45 percent of that. The expansion will pay an extra amount to fill the gap. Under the plan, eligible workers will get an extra $600 per week on top of their state benefit. But some states are more generous than others. According to the Century Foundation, the maximum weekly benefit in Alabama is $275, but it’s $450 in California and $713 in New Jersey. > Are gig workers, freelancers and independent contractors covered? Yes, self-employed people are newly eligible for unemployment benefits. Self-employed workers will also be eligible for the additional $600 weekly benefit provided by the federal government. > If you’ve received a diagnosis, are experiencing symptoms or are seeking a diagnosis — and you’re unemployed, partly unemployed or cannot work as a result — you will be covered. The same goes if you must care for a member of your family or household who has received a diagnosis. > What if my child’s school or day care shut down? If you rely on a school, a day care or another facility to care for a child, elderly parent or another household member so that you can work — and that facility has been shut down because of coronavirus — you are eligible. > What if I’ve been advised by a health care provider to quarantine myself because of exposure to coronavirus? And what about broader orders to stay home? People who must self-quarantine are covered. The legislation also says that individuals who are unable to get to work because of a quarantine imposed as a result of the outbreak are eligible.
kenjackson 7y ago
As a customer who really appreciates these services in these times, I think these demands are super reasonable. I recently tried to give a tip to an Amazon carryout person, but they said they couldn't take it.
- ahmadss 7y ago
  Same. We just end up giving our amazon delivery guy two bottles of hand sanitizer and a face mask.
- Cerium 7y ago
  Completely reasonable. I got an Instacart order yesterday, and paid 15% tip. That worked out to about $2 per item on average. I think that if I can't afford to pay an extra ~25% for my groceries then I have no business ordering them.
  - product50 7y ago
    Talk about yourself vs. generalizing it for everyone
    - stephencanon 7y ago
      They did talk about themselves. The whole post is written only in the first person.
  - davidw 7y ago
    Yep, I figure I'm easily saving that money anyway by not going out to eat, not going out for beer with friends, hardly any driving, and so on. So I figure it's the right thing to share generously as long as I'm in a position to do so.
legitster 7y ago
> An extension and expansion of pay for workers impacted by COVID-19 — anyone who has a doctor’s note for either a preexisting condition that’s a known risk factor or requiring a self-quarantine. This should be done by the government. It feels unfair to pass this on to consumers, but there should be some sort of "voluntary unemployment" for people with pre-existing conditions right now.
- DevKoala 7y ago
  How is it unfair to demand that a business puts some effort in keeping their workforce healthy? These workers were forced to work during quarantine because the government deemed Amazon an essential business. As a result, Amazon stock's price relative gain to the S&P 500 tumble during this crisis is ~80%, that's almost a doubling of the stock valuation due to the uninterrupted business that these delivery workers made possible. I repeat: AWS basically doubled their relative stock valuation, withstood one of the biggest stock market tumbles in all history, because their lowest level employees went to work at a point when everybody else stayed at home safe.
  - chrischen 7y ago
    Businesses don’t have “effort”. They have costs and revenues and if costs exceed revenues they just raise revenues (aka the price to the consumer). If you think of a business as a machine, and the person who bought the machine as a stockholder, you would understand that a machine does not suddenly work harder because the person paid more for the machine.
    - tareqak 7y ago
      A machine has inputs and outputs. It’s inputs have to of some level of quality to get outputs of some other correlated level of quality. A consistent supply of quality inputs is correlated with a consistent supply of quality outputs. The trouble here seems to be maintaining a consistent supply that is sustainable.
  - legitster 7y ago
bnjms 7y ago
The only one I’d change is the 10% tip should be named as a fee. I think our tipping culture is okay but I’d like us to move to calling them delivery fees so we can keep the idea of the tip as a pure bonus between me and those serving me. I don’t like feeling like I am required to tip but I like tipping. Especially when not expected but socially accepted.
- TheSoftwareGuy 7y ago
  a fee and a tip are very different things, and ti would be bad to conflate them. A fee is something mandatory and a tip is supposed to be optional. I think their are also differences between how the two things are taxed, so you really can't start conflating the two
  - pxx 7y ago
    There are no differences besides the fact that people often massively underreport cash tips.
    - squeaky-clean 7y ago
      No, they are different. The delivery fees do not go to the delivery person in most cases, and is an additional amount of money going to the company hosting the delivery (whether it's something like Instacart, or in-house delivery like a pizza place). Instacart keeps the entire 10% "Service fee" for orders, for example. The commenter above incorrect about the taxing, but are correct that tipped workers don't have precisely the same wage laws. Tipped workers are allowed to be paid a lower minimum wage that varies by state. In NYC is is $10/hr as opposed to the standard 15/hr minimum. In Florida it is $5.54, while regular minimum wage is $8.56/hr. Yes employees are supposed to be compensated in missing tip pay to reach the actual minimum-wage. But also yes, this is the fastest way to get yourself fired from a company. If you are the only employee asking for compensation due to low tips you're effectively admitting you do not offer customer service to the same tier as other tipped workers and should be fired.[0] [0] I don't personally believe this. But every manager I've ever had while doing tipped work has believed this. And good luck getting a lawyer to fight for you when your salary was previously $5.54 / hour.
derision 7y ago
Considering that hospitals are barely able to get PPE, I think they should be given first priority over delivery people who don't necessarily have to interact with anyone on the receiving end
- elicash 7y ago
  Instacart could pay someone to make hand sanitizer if they wanted. They can purchase soap.
  - gruez 7y ago
    Sanitizers are made with alcohol, which are presumably in low supply. It doesn't take that much labor to actually make the sanitizer. All you need to to is mix two ingredients together and bottle it.
    - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
      Many places have facilities to make the alcohol, in UK at least the barrier seems to be legislative -- companies need licenses for stills to make the requisite alcohol (they're licensed for other alcohol production), and those licenses aren't available.
    - omegaworks 7y ago
      > Sanitizers are made with alcohol, which are presumably in low supply. Amazon has the global logistical supply chain to make it happen. Bezos can send an email and have a grain-to-alcohol pipeline in the works by the end of the week.
- chrischen 7y ago
  Yes and given they are doing “contactless delivery” now how much risk is there really in contracting this virus from just being outside (especially since most people are inside)?
  - kaikai 7y ago

TAForObvReasons 7y ago

> defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. There was controversy in the past with DoorDash effectively pocketing the tips (https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-general-sues-doordash-pocketing-tips-67138480 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-gene...) which makes me wary about tipping in these apps -- are InstaCart and Amazon doing the same?

mackey 7y ago
At least with Amazon/Whole Foods, it says the entire tip goes to the workers.
pen2l 7y ago
I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. Something strange by the way, is that tipping is variable. Eg my ~$110 order yesterday automatically tacked on a $7 tip, my ~$50 order of three days had a $5 dollar tip automatically added. Anyone have an idea how they are calculating this?
- atwebb 7y ago
  >I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. If I remember correctly, the prior controversy was that DoorDash (or whomever) would give them the tip 100% but then take an equal or weighted portion from the company's contribution.
- droopyEyelids 7y ago
  The way it has worked in the past is that drivers get 100% of the tip, but the tip amount is subtracted from their base pay. Company tells the worker a delivery pays $15, you tip $5, the company reduces their portion to $10, the worker gets $15 total. You tip $10? The company pays $5, worker still walks away with $15.
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    Given that DD also had a minimum they would pay, regardless of tip, that can also be stated as - We will pay you $X - We will make sure you make at least $Y If you make the wording changes - $X == <wait staff minimum wage> - $Y == <normal minimum wage> Then it becomes clear that this is exactly how restaurants work; with the caveat that it's per delivery instead of per hour.
    - gkop 7y ago
      This framing would certainly be more transparent. I doubt though that DoorDash would want to explicitly adopt a compensation practice that's illegal in seven states including their home state of California (https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped).
      - RHSeeger 7y ago
        Assuming you take == as "works the same as" not "is the same monetary value", then what about it is illegal?
- lipstone 7y ago
  I imagine something like "number of items" or "number of bags" or "total weight/volume of order" is an input into the default tip formula. Which makes sense, as the quantity is what actually matters to the delivery person.
- tmh79 7y ago
  The issue at doordash is the following: (1) Drivers are paid in 2 factors, a tip provided by the user, and a per delivery fee provided by doordash thats variable, and generally in the industry is between 10 and 20% of the basket cost (2) doordash additionaly guaranteed a total "minimum compensation" per delivery up front that was like ~20% of the cost of the basket (3) Doordash would use the tips users paid to offset the amount they would pay drivers in order to meet the "minimum comp guarantee", so if you ordered 100 dollars in food, and tip 20 dollars, and the minimum compensation on the order was 20 dollars,doordash would pay the driver nothing, and your whole tip would sub for driver pay. If instead you tipped 0 dollars on your 100 dollar basket, doordash would pay the driver 20 dollars out of its own funds to meet the minimum comp. Likewise if you tipped 10 dollars, doordash woud pay 10 dollars.
idunno246 7y ago
even if they technically do, i can almost guarantee you the product managers are looking at the total income per hour going to these workers inclusive of tips, and tuning their base pay or whatever they call their contribution to hit a specific total based on average/median/etc tips.
- neonate 7y ago
  > i can almost guarantee you In other words, you don't know. I agree with you that they shouldn't be scummy about this but I don't think it's fair to make up that they are.
  - idunno246 7y ago
    true, i dont know for sure, but i used to work in the space and it's how everyone i knew thought about courier compensation. theres only so many dollars a customer will pay for delivery[during normal times, its probably less elastic now] whether it's tips or delivery/service fees, and after cost of goods only so much left.
    - neonate 7y ago
      I appreciate hearing about your experience.
malandrew 7y ago
Instacart was doing the same, but they changed course. Doordash is/was doing the same, said they would change course, did not, got call out on it and in the end I don't know if they every actually changed their policy or found some other slimy way to technically abide but still take advantage of their partners. Amazon I believe tends to do everything through third party companies and there really isn't tipping with Amazon as far as I know, but that might have changed since I haven't ordered an Amazon Fresh order in ages. From other comments here, it sounds like they now having tipping.
tedivm 7y ago
InstaCart experimented with stealing tips like DoorDash does, but they backed down when drivers and customers both got really upset about it. Now all of the tips go to the shopper, and the tips are not considered when calculating base pay.
yig 7y ago
According to this Reddit post, Amazon Prime Now plays the same shenanigans with the tip: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/9ji1af/prime_now_tips/e6s84s2/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonFlexDrivers/comments/9ji1af/p... "Amazon will never disclose any information about specific deliveries beyond what you see in the app before and after the delivery. They will not tell you who tipped or how much. The only ways to tell if a customer tipped are cash tips and blocks with only one order completed, including instant offers, for which the earnings exceed the initial offer." "If an offer shows a pay range, the base rate is never more than the low end of that range. For example, if you accept an offer for a 2 hour block with pay of $36-50, anything you earn for that block beyond $36 is from tips." "Amazon does not technically steal tips, but the end result is the same as if they did. They call it variable base pay. They state in the contract that 100% of tips are passed on to the driver. This is true. However, they often lower the base rate enough so the net earnings is the minimum stated in the block offer. Think of it like a piece of string. The entire length of the string is your earnings. The right side of the string is tips and the left side is base pay. They promise never to cut the right side of the string. They cut the left side instead. It still results in a shorter piece of string." "If the base pay plus tips ends up being more than the offered pay for the block, you will get paid the full amount. So if you accept a 2 hour block for $36-50 and get $55 in tips, you will be paid at least $55. They don't lower the base rate on every block and they don't always lower it the same amount. They say it's based on demand. For a 2 hour block, after tips, you might be paid $36 or you might be paid $80. It just depends." "I'm not sure how Amazon determines the suggested tip for orders that include tips. I just played around in the Prime Now app and it seems like the suggested tip is a percentage of the total item cost, before shipping and tax, but is a minimum of $5. Customers can, of course, change it to whatever they want."
- drstewart 7y ago
  Why would you believe anything on reddit? That post and most others on reddit essentially boil down to "I don't have proof, but this feels right because it's cynical so that's what I'm going with."
- tomp 7y ago
  I don't understand. If Amazon is promising to pay you at least $36, then the "base pay" must be $36 - that's what you'd be getting if there was $0 tips - and either you're getting all the tips (i.e. if there's any tips, you're paid more than $36), or Amazon is lying and stealing tips (i.e. if there's $2 in tips, they reduce ("steal") your base pay to $34 so you're still paid just $36).
cjhopman 7y ago
That controversy never made sense to me. Most restaurants in the US "effectively pocket the tips" in the same way. In fact, any servers that are being paid roughly minimum wage up to minimum wage + $5 could have their tips pocketed in the same way. Here's a question for people who were so upset by this. Let's say you have a bunch of tipped employees that you directly pay $10/hour and with tips they average $20/hour. You have two problems though, (1) your employees complain that during some shifts they are making barely over their base pay and (2) potential new hires are worried that they won't make as much in tips as you say current employees make. The question is: would it be taking advantage of those employees to change the employment to include a guaranteed $15/hour minimum, for any shift where they make less than that you'd pay them extra to hit the minimum?
- Archio 7y ago
  It blows my mind how many people don't understand why what DoorDash did was bad. The comparison to DoorDash isn't table service in a restaurant, it's ordering food for delivery to your house and then giving cash to the driver. Where does that cash go? The driver's pocket. That process & the cultural understanding of it has literally been around as long as the concept of tipping. Here's the real question that answers why people are "upset". If you did a poll of 100 people ordering on DoorDash, and asked them "when you tip on your order, where does the money go", what do you think people would say? 99/100 of them would ABSOLUTELY say "to the driver" and that is everything that is wrong with what DoorDash did. I struggle to engage sincerely in argument with anyone claiming otherwise.
  - cjhopman 7y ago
    > If you did a poll of 100 people ordering on DoorDash, and asked them "when you tip on your order, where does the money go", what do you think people would say? 99/100 of them would ABSOLUTELY say "to the driver" and that is everything that is wrong with what DoorDash did. How is that different from servers in a restaurant? If you asked that question of people who give a tip to their servers at a restaurant they would also say that that money goes to their server, despite the fact that the federally mandated earnings guarantee (assuming the restaurant doesn't have its own higher one) means that that money, effectively, might just be going to the restaurant. > it's ordering food for delivery to your house and then giving cash to the driver And would you be upset if Domino's gave an earnings guarantee to their drivers?
david_w 7y ago
But how do they even know? If the driver stuffs it away in their sock or whatever how do they even know ?
- rfrey 7y ago
  The tips are generally dine through the app and passes on by the company.
c3534l 7y ago
I discovered I was accidentally undertipping people because of this. I had set it to 20% and it got reset at some point. I felt like a shitty person for it, but systematically underpaying people who work on tips is such a fucked up thing to do.

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gullyfur 7y ago

> Hazard pay How many industries offer a hazard pay? I know the military does for conflict zones, what amount do they offer?

elicash 7y ago
Did a quick search and "Trader Joe’s and Walmart employees have received bonuses, while Target, Whole Foods, Amazon, and the Texas grocery store chain H-E-B are offering $2 per hour raises." https://civileats.com/2020/03/20/breaking-grocery-store-workers-heroes-to-the-community-during-coronavirus-to-get-hazard-pay/ https://civileats.com/2020/03/20/breaking-grocery-store-work... May also be coming to doctors, nurses (if it isn't there already): https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-administration-looking-at-hazard-pay-for-doctors-nurses-on-front-lines-of-coronavirus-fight/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-says-administration-looki... Customs workers, corrections officers, and a ton of other jobs also negotiating it. In Philly, among them are police, firefighters, sanitation workers, health care workers. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/philadelphia-to-revisit-its-time-and-a-half-hazard-pay-during-coronavirus/2340091/ https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/philadelphia-to-r...
ims 7y ago
You can see the monthly rates here: https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Special-and-Incentive-Pays/HDIP/ https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Special-and-Incentive-Pa...
sailfast 7y ago
The military offers a number of different pay scales for this, but I'm reading an extra $225 per paycheck tax free. https://militarybenefits.info/military-allowance-incentive-bonus-special-pay/ https://militarybenefits.info/military-allowance-incentive-b... As for "who typically offers this" I would argue that this isn't quite like a "normal" time. Many people are putting their health on the line to come to work which is not something that is normally part of the decisionmaking process for their regular wage. As a result of that increased risk and because of the huge demand for their labor a large increase in pay makes a lot of sense (even if we take the "combat pay" stuff out of the equation. Demand-alone would increase their wages)

cryoshon 7y ago

honestly, i'm surprised that their demands are so few and so modest. i was expecting significantly higher numbers for the hazard pay portion of their demands. i can't understand what might prevent amazon and instacart from assenting to these demands as soon as they have the logistical ability to provide the necessary items to their staff. the national situation isn't permissive of corporations dragging their feet when essential services are down at the moment. on the other hand, workers treated to a hopefully quick victory will not forget this when the pandemic ends. if we're lucky, the balance of power will shift to their favor.

Frost1x 7y ago
>honestly, i'm surprised that their demands are so few and so modest. i was expecting significantly higher numbers for the hazard pay portion of their demands. "Shhh... don't let the Plebes know they're still getting robbed. We're going to fight this, negotiate something a little lower and still come out way ahead." -Our Corporate Lords and Vassels In all seriousness, it goes to show you how little people have come to expect. Some of these strikes historically have had unrealistic expectations in requests from what I recall. Labor rights have declined so far in this country that demands from strikes are now almost fully reasonable, leaving little room to negotiate back from.
londons_explore 7y ago
Workers can only demand what the market will bear, and considering there are a lot of people looking for any sort of work right now, and training up to become one of these workers doesn't take long, these workers aren't in a position to demand much. Hazard pay is moot for workers who have already caught COVID-19 too, which I would guess is a reasonably chunk of delivery workers by now.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  With the federal government putting what is essentially temporary UBI (as part of the "CARES Act" stimulus program) in place for those who have lost work or hours due to COVID, this is the best time to flex your labor muscle. If Amazon does not meet their demands, these folks can fall back to unemployment insurance for up to 10 months. I apologize for the wall of text below, feel free to minimize this comment ([-] sign next to delete above), but it is crucial to demonstrate how broad this support is to the working class. https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package-questions-answers.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/coronavirus-stimulus-package... (F.A.Q. on Stimulus Checks, Unemployment and the Coronavirus Plan) > Benefits will be expanded in an attempt to replace the average worker’s paycheck, explained Andrew Stettner, a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, a public policy research group. The average worker earns about $1,000 a week, and unemployment benefits often replace roughly 40 to 45 percent of that. The expansion will pay an extra amount to fill the gap. Under the plan, eligible workers will get an extra $600 per week on top of their state benefit. But some states are more generous than others. According to the Century Foundation, the maximum weekly benefit in Alabama is $275, but it’s $450 in California and $713 in New Jersey. > Are gig workers, freelancers and independent contractors covered? Yes, self-employed people are newly eligible for unemployment benefits. Self-employed workers will also be eligible for the additional $600 weekly benefit provided by the federal government. > If you’ve received a diagnosis, are experiencing symptoms or are seeking a diagnosis — and you’re unemployed, partly unemployed or cannot work as a result — you will be covered. The same goes if you must care for a member of your family or household who has received a diagnosis. > What if my child’s school or day care shut down? If you rely on a school, a day care or another facility to care for a child, elderly parent or another household member so that you can work — and that facility has been shut down because of coronavirus — you are eligible. > What if I’ve been advised by a health care provider to quarantine myself because of exposure to coronavirus? And what about broader orders to stay home? People who must self-quarantine are covered. The legislation also says that individuals who are unable to get to work because of a quarantine imposed as a result of the outbreak are eligible.

kenjackson 7y ago

As a customer who really appreciates these services in these times, I think these demands are super reasonable. I recently tried to give a tip to an Amazon carryout person, but they said they couldn't take it.

ahmadss 7y ago
Same. We just end up giving our amazon delivery guy two bottles of hand sanitizer and a face mask.
Cerium 7y ago
Completely reasonable. I got an Instacart order yesterday, and paid 15% tip. That worked out to about $2 per item on average. I think that if I can't afford to pay an extra ~25% for my groceries then I have no business ordering them.
- product50 7y ago
  Talk about yourself vs. generalizing it for everyone
  - stephencanon 7y ago
    They did talk about themselves. The whole post is written only in the first person.
- davidw 7y ago
  Yep, I figure I'm easily saving that money anyway by not going out to eat, not going out for beer with friends, hardly any driving, and so on. So I figure it's the right thing to share generously as long as I'm in a position to do so.

legitster 7y ago

> An extension and expansion of pay for workers impacted by COVID-19 — anyone who has a doctor’s note for either a preexisting condition that’s a known risk factor or requiring a self-quarantine. This should be done by the government. It feels unfair to pass this on to consumers, but there should be some sort of "voluntary unemployment" for people with pre-existing conditions right now.

DevKoala 7y ago
How is it unfair to demand that a business puts some effort in keeping their workforce healthy? These workers were forced to work during quarantine because the government deemed Amazon an essential business. As a result, Amazon stock's price relative gain to the S&P 500 tumble during this crisis is ~80%, that's almost a doubling of the stock valuation due to the uninterrupted business that these delivery workers made possible. I repeat: AWS basically doubled their relative stock valuation, withstood one of the biggest stock market tumbles in all history, because their lowest level employees went to work at a point when everybody else stayed at home safe.
- chrischen 7y ago
  Businesses don’t have “effort”. They have costs and revenues and if costs exceed revenues they just raise revenues (aka the price to the consumer). If you think of a business as a machine, and the person who bought the machine as a stockholder, you would understand that a machine does not suddenly work harder because the person paid more for the machine.
  - tareqak 7y ago
    A machine has inputs and outputs. It’s inputs have to of some level of quality to get outputs of some other correlated level of quality. A consistent supply of quality inputs is correlated with a consistent supply of quality outputs. The trouble here seems to be maintaining a consistent supply that is sustainable.
- legitster 7y ago

bnjms 7y ago

The only one I’d change is the 10% tip should be named as a fee. I think our tipping culture is okay but I’d like us to move to calling them delivery fees so we can keep the idea of the tip as a pure bonus between me and those serving me. I don’t like feeling like I am required to tip but I like tipping. Especially when not expected but socially accepted.

TheSoftwareGuy 7y ago
a fee and a tip are very different things, and ti would be bad to conflate them. A fee is something mandatory and a tip is supposed to be optional. I think their are also differences between how the two things are taxed, so you really can't start conflating the two
- pxx 7y ago
  There are no differences besides the fact that people often massively underreport cash tips.
  - squeaky-clean 7y ago
    No, they are different. The delivery fees do not go to the delivery person in most cases, and is an additional amount of money going to the company hosting the delivery (whether it's something like Instacart, or in-house delivery like a pizza place). Instacart keeps the entire 10% "Service fee" for orders, for example. The commenter above incorrect about the taxing, but are correct that tipped workers don't have precisely the same wage laws. Tipped workers are allowed to be paid a lower minimum wage that varies by state. In NYC is is $10/hr as opposed to the standard 15/hr minimum. In Florida it is $5.54, while regular minimum wage is $8.56/hr. Yes employees are supposed to be compensated in missing tip pay to reach the actual minimum-wage. But also yes, this is the fastest way to get yourself fired from a company. If you are the only employee asking for compensation due to low tips you're effectively admitting you do not offer customer service to the same tier as other tipped workers and should be fired.[0] [0] I don't personally believe this. But every manager I've ever had while doing tipped work has believed this. And good luck getting a lawyer to fight for you when your salary was previously $5.54 / hour.

derision 7y ago

Considering that hospitals are barely able to get PPE, I think they should be given first priority over delivery people who don't necessarily have to interact with anyone on the receiving end

elicash 7y ago
Instacart could pay someone to make hand sanitizer if they wanted. They can purchase soap.
- gruez 7y ago
  Sanitizers are made with alcohol, which are presumably in low supply. It doesn't take that much labor to actually make the sanitizer. All you need to to is mix two ingredients together and bottle it.
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    Many places have facilities to make the alcohol, in UK at least the barrier seems to be legislative -- companies need licenses for stills to make the requisite alcohol (they're licensed for other alcohol production), and those licenses aren't available.
  - omegaworks 7y ago
    > Sanitizers are made with alcohol, which are presumably in low supply. Amazon has the global logistical supply chain to make it happen. Bezos can send an email and have a grain-to-alcohol pipeline in the works by the end of the week.
chrischen 7y ago
Yes and given they are doing “contactless delivery” now how much risk is there really in contracting this virus from just being outside (especially since most people are inside)?
- kaikai 7y ago