11 ms·

What is the end goal for the thieves? Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can the

• gorgoiler 7y ago
  Perhaps it was stolen to order? Essentially the market would be ready-made for the thieves.
  • matthewmcg 7y ago
    “Your Postmate is picking up your order from RIJKSMUSEUM. It should be ready for delivery on: the next quiet, moonless night.”
• bpodgursky 7y ago
  If you can get the goods to the Middle East (Qatar, UAE, Bahrain) I assure you there are filthy rich princes and sheikhs who (1) want to give the impression of a respect for fine art, and (2) are at absolutely no risk of prosecution, and (3) would drop the money just for fun / social posturing, not even as an investment.
  • redisman 7y ago
    Oligarchs, shady statesmen, (cyber)criminals, druglords, warlords. I'm sure there are plenty of people in the market for stolen work from one of the most famous painters.
  • themodelplumber 7y ago
    They might even be under the impression that they are negotiating with / buying from a rightful owner.
  • markstos 7y ago
    You have examples of other stolen art they possess?
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
• basch 7y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/what-is-the-value-of-stolen-art.html?src=longreads https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/what-is-the-valu... art theft also makes for good journalism (about the same theft, heist story) https://www.nrc.nl/kunsthal-en/ https://www.nrc.nl/kunsthal-en/ and its still profitable, for people who are good at it. https://www.gq.com/story/secrets-of-the-worlds-greatest-art-thief https://www.gq.com/story/secrets-of-the-worlds-greatest-art-... war is a little different, but leads to similar results https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/04/degenerate-art-cornelius-gurlitt-munich-apartment https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2014/04/degenerate-art-corne... finally, not so much direct theft, but Art World Satan (his own self curated image) Stefan Simchowitz is interesting in his own right, buying up all of someones paintings before they are famous, and flipping them, once he hypes them up enough as the next big thing. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/magazine/the-art-worlds-patron-satan.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/magazine/the-art-worlds-p... https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/is-silicon-valley-destroying-the-art-market https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/08/is-silicon-valley-de... https://hyperallergic.com/452852/the-notorious-stefan-simchowitz-on-art-dealing-social-media-and-faith-in-art/ https://hyperallergic.com/452852/the-notorious-stefan-simcho... https://hyperallergic.com/172910/stefan-simchowitz-isnt-as-controversial-as-hed-like-you-to-believe/ https://hyperallergic.com/172910/stefan-simchowitz-isnt-as-c... https://www.lamag.com/longform/man-art-gallery-owners-love-hate/ https://www.lamag.com/longform/man-art-gallery-owners-love-h... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-12/hot-new-artist-laments-that-his-work-is-being-flipped-for-profit https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-12/hot-new-a... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-06/art-flippers-chase-fresh-stars-as-murillo-s-doodles-soar https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-02-06/art-flipp... https://www.vulture.com/2014/03/saltz-on-the-great-and-powerful-simchowitz.html https://www.vulture.com/2014/03/saltz-on-the-great-and-power... >Ulman had not yet heard all the stories about Simchowitz’s generosity and its fatal attraction for young, penniless artists whom he lured into Faustian bargains. He would provide them with “all those adult things” they needed and so often lacked: room, board, materials. In exchange for extraordinary support, Simchowitz asked not for his artists’ souls but for their art, a deal that many of his protégés lived to regret. one more about the girl whos legs got destroyed in the grayhound accident https://outline.com/LgJMGd https://outline.com/LgJMGd
• mulmen 7y ago
  Apparently they can be used as collateral between criminals for loans. They can also be used as an insurance policy if the criminal is ever caught. Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card.
  • hannob 7y ago
    > Offer to exchange the art for a lesser sentence. A literal get out of jail free card. Has that ever happened? I'd assume this would be super controversial.
    • paulie_a 7y ago
      A guy out of Boston did that...for paintings he actually stole. I think the book was the art of the heist
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  • bogomipz 7y ago
    This was the certainly the case in the Gardner Museum heist in Boston in the 90s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museum_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_Stewart_Gardner_Museu... https://news.artnet.com/art-world/gardner-heist-suspect-released-prison-1703613 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/gardner-heist-suspect-rele...
    • mulmen 7y ago
      Thanks, I was familiar with the anecdote but couldn't remember the source. I did a quick search but didn't find it. I thought it may have happened with a major drug dealer as well? Not sure on that.
    • Igelau 7y ago
      Those police sketches of the thieves look an awful lot like Mario and Luigi...
  • 7y ago
• predators372 7y ago
  It may not be presented to prospective buyers under truthful conditions.
  • markstos 7y ago
    "I promise this is the OTHER Van Gogh by the same name, not the one that comes in news stories about the theft when you Google it."
  • dr-detroit 7y ago
    Everyone in the art world knows everything is probably forged and they all cant say anything so its not going to be taken seriously when it emerges
• sparrc 7y ago
  If you don't think there are loads of shady rich people in the world, you need to wake up.
  • saas_sam 7y ago
    There are loads of shady poor people. Those of us in cities see them daily. Makes sense that there would be shady rich people, too.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
• bmistree 7y ago
  Let me preface this by stating that I don't actually have any special knowledge of the art or criminal world beyond what I've seen in the movies, so the following is pure speculation. I could imagine that if a thief's motive were purely financial, he/she could ransom the painting. "This is a priceless piece of world heritage that is heavily insured. Send XXX BTC to this wallet or I'll burn up the painting and send you its ashes."
• crazygringo 7y ago
  From what I've read it's stolen to order. Super rich person really wants that particular painting to hang in a private room where they can enjoy it. And they go through a couple connections for plausible deniability -- buying it from some kind of "dealer" they can "assume" is "legit", and the "dealer" then connects with actual criminals to steal it. If ever caught (unlikely), the thieves and "dealer" take the fall, not the rich person. Also the rich person may be halfway around the world in a country where there's literally zero chance of being caught/extradited. But the thieves and dealer are going to make a helluva lot of money, obviously, for the risk they're taking.
  • joncalhoun 7y ago
    I don't think plausible deniability works on one-of-a-kind artwork. Even if you assume your dealer is legit, any cursory research will tell you it was stolen. It would be like buying the secret formula for Coca-Cola and claiming you didn't know it was stolen because it went through multiple middlemen.
    • OrangeMango 7y ago
      You can always claim to have purchased a "professional-quality" reproduction from a "reputable" dealer.
      • black_puppydog 7y ago
        happens all the time that you ask for a replica and the dealer secretly plants a multi million dollar artwork in your bedroom. Seems legit. :D
        • frandroid 7y ago
          And you've just decided that the "replica" was so good that you paid stolen-art-on-the-black-market money for it, not "good replica painter" money for it...
          • 7y ago
• thdrdt 7y ago
  Michel Van Rijn was a 'famous' Dutch art smuggler. He explained that a lot of art was ordered. The extreme wealthy of the underground just buy it because they want it. A Vice article about him: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ex5qj4/how-i-became-one-of-the-most-successful-art-smugglers-in-the-world https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ex5qj4/how-i-became-one-o... Edit: the Vice article doesn't mention the thefts and looting. There are other sources for this. It is also unclear if he really is a former smuggler. Edit 2: The other reason is it's relatively easy to steal art. And most thieves focus on that part. The selling part is difficult and is also why a lot of stolen art is later recovered.
• root_axis 7y ago
  Prison time isn't generally a risk for someone with enough wealth and connections to even catch wind of the offer to purchase a stolen Van Gogh painting.
• randyrand 7y ago
  Easy - sell for cash to drug cartels.
• buckminster 7y ago
  It is effectively a kidnapping. The kidnapper gets a ransom. Otherwise known as a reward for “information leading to the return” of the stolen painting.
• devindotcom 7y ago
  Interestingly as I understand it part of the point is that by stealing the original you are able to create both better counterfeits and a market for them. Think about it — obviously no one will buy a counterfeit "Starry Night" or whatever if it's hanging in a museum. But if it's stolen, all of a sudden there's the possibility that they can buy the original. Not only that, but the counterfeit, created with extensive access to the original, is likely to be almost indistinguishable from it except by experts. So the thieves steal the original, make a few copies, sell those for millions saying each is the original, then return the original to the museum. The best part is, the people who bought the counterfeits can't exactly go to the police. It's the perfect crime! Sound crazy? This is what is speculated to have happened to the Mona Lisa some time ago. The "Tony Soprano types" are probably more common - and perhaps less savvy - than you might expect. The type of person who thinks one can buy a hot van Gogh for a few million bucks is a pretty ripe target for counterfeiters.
  • jagger27 7y ago
    Couldn’t museums and other art holders create their own authenticated market of accurate clones by giving copiers access?
    • ISL 7y ago
      The ethics of such a practice would be dubious at best.
      • enriquto 7y ago
        Why? This is just like selling high-quality prints of the paintings, which is already done and nobody complains about.
      • jagger27 7y ago
        I don’t see why if they’re clearly indicated as clones.
      • penagwin 7y ago
        If the original is now public domain and the replica is not advertised as the original, I'm not sure what the ethical issue is? I do see a financial issue though, cheap clones are CHEAP - and if you want something that can nearly pass as authentic (which I'd argue is a work of art on it's own) you'd be looking at a very narrow market of buyers. Again, as long as replicas/clones are labeled as such and the original is in the public domain.
• saber6 7y ago
  > [...] how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? I think there are more of them than you are realistically considering. Art theft, while making for attention grabbing headlines, has gone on for thousands of years. Age old thievery just with a different class of buyer at the end of the chain.
• acdanger 7y ago
  I've read that often art thieves are effectively ransoming their stolen art in hopes the victimized museum's pay up.
• colinmhayes 7y ago
  Paintings are insured. Thieves should be able to sell the paintings back to insurance companies for 10% of their value right?
• saluki 7y ago
  Check out The Thomas Crown Affair (1999), the classic is good too. Interesting fictional perspective on the super wealthy and thinking they can have anything they want. legal or not. I expect it's not far from reality for some. "I love my haystacks." Great movie.
• vanduh 7y ago
  > how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? Plenty. Think Drug Cartel Bosses. Over half-a-dozen in Mexico, Columbia and Venezuela alone. Nett worth in Billions.
• warent 7y ago
  Paul McCartney had his original Hofner Bass stolen and wondered the exact same as you. He had a really funny theory about this that if you visit some German castle way up in the hills of Bavaria, after dinner the host will invite you into a room where his bass is hanging over the mantlepiece. [1] I'd be willing to bet that in cases like this painting, the thieves were probably hired by a billionaire client. So, the buyer was the one who initiated the heist in the first place. [1] https://youtu.be/5Pf19jV1NYw?t=849 https://youtu.be/5Pf19jV1NYw?t=849
• elorant 7y ago
  A lot of wealthy collectors who buy prestigious art never exhibit it in public. So anyone could get that thing and place it in a private vault. Other than that, my guess is that whoever stole it already has a client waiting to buy it. We could safely assume that the job is pretty much commissioned.
• sacado2 7y ago
  As a rich art collector, you can buy a real Van Gogh for a fraction of its price. Can you risk jail? Sure, but who will know you own it anyway? It's not like you're going to expose it in your living room anyway. Not only that, but as soon as you know there can be at least one person in the world willing to buy that stolen piece of art, it becomes a great asset to own even if you're not the said art collector. Let's say I'm a bad guy and I want to give another bad guy 2 million dollars but I don't want to be seen with or have to travel with a suitcase full of banknotes or with my own weight in gold bars. Just carrying a lightweight, low-profile cardboard tube containing those 2 million bucks as a painting is very convenient. And don't forget the end customer is not necessarily someone living in the same country. What if he's a rich prince living in a rich country, far far away? He would be mostly out of reach.
  • yiyus 7y ago
    I don't disagree with your comment. There are probably collectors who think like that. But I guess most collectors really like to show off their collections. Why having a good art collection if you cannot show it to anyone?
    • sacado2 7y ago
      You can just enjoy it for yourself, in a private room. I'm not that much of an art fan, but I'd love to have an authentic Van Gogh in front of my bed. I guess a rich art fan who doesn't care about ethics would be thrilled as well.
      • corpMaverick 7y ago
        At that point is probably not the art that you love, but knowing that you can get a way with stealing a master piece. More like a trophy.
• peter303 7y ago
  Eventually new technology exposes a counterfeit. There was a recent NOVA about fake dead sea scrolls and the competition between counterfeiters to create better fakes and forensic experts to weed them out. At the time the episode was filmed about a third of the scroll fragments owned by the Museum of the Bible were proven fakes. Now the rest of them have been proven false.
• eyegor 7y ago
  Here's an interesting idea, although it may be far fetched. Given the original, if a thief could produce a high quality counterfeit in van gough's style, they could possibly use parchment/ink from the true original in creating it. Then they'd have a "lost van gough" which could pass some basic age analysis. This lost painting would be worth more than the original, and they could sell it on the real art market, not a black market. Or this may just a crappy movie plot. I don't know much about art.
• frereubu 7y ago
  This is a great read from the New Yorker about a serial art thief, which gives a bit of insight into the psychology of it all: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/01/14/the-french-burglar-who-pulled-off-his-generations-biggest-art-heist https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/01/14/the-french-bur...
• kube-system 7y ago
  > I doubt many mob boss/Tony Soprano types really have an appreciation for fine art. Why? It's perfect. Cartels/mobsters love extravagant things, art is convenient for money laundering, and they already DGAF about the law. https://news.artnet.com/art-world/3-drug-kingpins-art-adored-316531 https://news.artnet.com/art-world/3-drug-kingpins-art-adored...
• toyg 7y ago
  I don't know what it's like in Northern Europe, but in Italy the motives can be more trivial than you'd expect. In at least one case we know of, about 20 years ago, a local gangster had some beef with a bishop, so he got his men to break into the main church and steal a prized artwork. The painting was never found (afaik); the boss was later imprisoned for other reasons and basically admitted to his role in the heist, but can't remember what eventually happened to the artwork. In another case, which was reported pretty recently, a long-stolen painting was found in a small hole in the external wall of the actual building it was stolen from. Motives were never explained by the suspected thief, and the theft happened so long ago that the statute of limitations impedes a prosecution anyway. The theory is just that "opportunity makes man a thief", as they say there: this guy might have seen an opening in the security procedures and might have gone for it, without really thinking about (or underestimating) subsequent steps; eventually he simply returned it (there is no chance that the painting could have survived for years in that hole with nay a scratch, clearly it was placed there very recently) once he knew he couldn't be punished for it.
• moomin 7y ago
  This is a serious problem for stolen artworks. Back in the day the IRA stole several. The most use they ever were was as collateral to other illegal organisations. If you can find a decent history of them, it’s fascinating but the long and the short of it is that even to a large, well connected organisation they just proved more trouble than they were worth, The truth is, the aesthete billionaire collector beloved by movies doesn’t much exist. Most truly expensive artwork is bought either as a store of value or to show off. Both require you to be able to publicise you have it.
• jdietrich 7y ago
  >Seeing as you obviously can't sell stolen artwork on the open market- how many insanely wealthy private collectors can there be out there, who are willing to risk substantial prison time to own a stolen painting? There's zero risk involved if you're a Russian oligarch - the Russian constitution absolutely prohibits extradition and the Russian state has no interest in prosecuting wealthy, powerful and well-connected men for crimes that don't meaningfully harm and arguably benefit the Russian state. Much the same can be said for a number of Middle Eastern and Latin American jurisdictions.
• krageon 7y ago
  > I think many or most people who have that much money probably made it legally You're already becoming so technical(ly true) here that it should be obvious that the people you're speaking of are functionally amoral. Once you approach a certain wealth ceiling, the chances that you're caught in any real way approach zero.