15 ms·

Amazon, Instacart delivery workers strike for coronavirus protection and pay

326 points by onewhonknocks 7y ago

hpoe 7y ago
Well I guess all of those abstract discussions about what would happen if they strike is now a reality. I just hope they can be okay living with the reality of people who needed things, especially life saving items. But hey at least they can make sure they get theirs, and hell who gives a damn what you can do for your country when you can put the screws to people who need your services. You stop being a hero when you stop making sacrifices.
- socalnate1 7y ago
  This is a very uncharitable take, here are three things they are asking for from the article, all of which seem very reasonable to me: "Workers from both Amazon and Instacart want more access to paid sick time off. At this time, it's available only to those who have tested positive for the coronavirus or get placed on mandatory self-quarantine. Amazon workers want their warehouse to be closed for a longer cleaning, with guaranteed pay. Instacart's grocery delivery gig workers are asking for disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer and better pay to offset the risk they are taking."
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  Emphasis mine, from TFA: > Workers from both Amazon and Instacart want more access to paid sick time off. At this time, it's available only to those who have tested positive for the coronavirus or get placed on mandatory self-quarantine. > Amazon workers want their warehouse to be closed for a longer cleaning with guaranteed pay. > Instacart's grocery delivery gig workers are asking for disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer and better pay to offset the risk they are taking. "Making sacrifices" is counterproductive cheap talk if it just ends up making the whole logistics chain infected and worse off.
- evanlivingston 7y ago
  They probably are not asking to be considered heros.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  >>I just hope they can be okay living with the reality of people who needed things, especially life saving items...You stop being a hero when you stop making sacrifices. Amazon is hiring, go and become a hero. (Risking your life for less than a living wage? F that.)
- elicash 7y ago
  People handling our food not having sick leave, not having access to things like soap and hand sanitizer -- that effects their customers, too, and puts them at risk. Food deliveries are generally safe for customers to receive assuming we wash our hands, but that doesn't mean what happens to people on the other end of the delivery - whether they're sick, whether they have access to PPE - doesn't have impacts on us, too.
- sl1ck731 7y ago
  They're gig workers trying to make ends meet, not drafted soldiers. I can't believe this is the take you got from this.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    It makes sense that PMC types see these workers as disposable infantry in the army of Capitalism, given that they fantasize themselves as its officer class.
- empath75 7y ago
  What are you doing to help?
- throwanem 7y ago
  You're not arguing that heroes make sacrifices. You're arguing for some people to be sacrificed. I see nothing noble there. And it seems a rather self-defeating argument, besides. Assuming you haven't yet got COVID-19, would you really like the people who handle your food and ship your goods to be working asymptomatic and shedding virus, and unequipped to protect either themselves or you?
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    As unsavory as it is, I do believe trading humans for humans is part and parcel with government policy. What happened in Wuhan was trading people for people, for example. If you can't talk about trading people, then in a practical sense you can't talk about policy except in circumstances where you find your own speech squeeky clean and safe. Furthermore, in a democracy, if people don't talk about trading people, then someone else will just have to take up that decision, but now the discussion is moved to a room where people don't see. Policy is a dirty job. As for the people who are working right now, what people deserve is the wrong word. The market is a cold world, and so you negotiate for what you can before you can't.
    - throwanem 7y ago
      I think you're wrong about all of that, but I'm not interested in arguing it with you. Even by your own standard, though, great-grandparent commenter is bound to speak openly, rather than being coy about the fact that he's arguing that the life and wellbeing of some should be sacrificed to improve that of others.
- DevKoala 7y ago
  Sitting behind a computer really kills any empathy huh?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
elicash 7y ago
Here are their demands: https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency-walk-off-ebdf11b6995a https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency... - Safety precautions at no cost to workers — PPE (at minimum hand sanitizer, disinfectant wipes/sprays and soap). - Hazard pay — an extra $5 per order and defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. - An extension and expansion of pay for workers impacted by COVID-19 — anyone who has a doctor’s note for either a preexisting condition that’s a known risk factor or requiring a self-quarantine. - The deadline to qualify for these benefits must be extended beyond April 8th.
- TAForObvReasons 7y ago
  > defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. There was controversy in the past with DoorDash effectively pocketing the tips (https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-general-sues-doordash-pocketing-tips-67138480 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-gene...) which makes me wary about tipping in these apps -- are InstaCart and Amazon doing the same?
  - mackey 7y ago
    At least with Amazon/Whole Foods, it says the entire tip goes to the workers.
  - pen2l 7y ago
    I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. Something strange by the way, is that tipping is variable. Eg my ~$110 order yesterday automatically tacked on a $7 tip, my ~$50 order of three days had a $5 dollar tip automatically added. Anyone have an idea how they are calculating this?
    - atwebb 7y ago
      >I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. If I remember correctly, the prior controversy was that DoorDash (or whomever) would give them the tip 100% but then take an equal or weighted portion from the company's contribution.
meritt 7y ago
In addition to the healthcare workers, we're going to look back a few years from now and recognize all the delivery drivers, package handlers, and grocery store cashiers as the "First Responders" of this crisis.
- malandrew 7y ago
  Ideally we automate as many of those jobs as possible so that as few people as possible are put in harms way and contribute to ongoing spread of the virus.
  - ch4s3 7y ago
    You imagine that in the span of weeks to months that picking oddly shaped items from bins, packing them into boxes of varying sizes, then driving on multiple legs can be meaningfully automated? I'm just not seeing it.
    - djohnston 7y ago
      Not for this crisis, to be sure, but w/in OP's timeframe of a few years? They're throwing enough money at this exact problem that it doesn't seem out of left field
DevKoala 7y ago
This is necessary. Is there was a way to show support for this cause as an Amazon customer? Ditching Amazon as a single individual doesn’t send a message.
- EarthIsHome 7y ago
  > Is there was a way to show support for this cause as an Amazon customer? Yes: * During the strike, show solidarity by not crossing picket lines. Don't use the service, and don't patron the business for the duration of the strike. This is because during the strike, the workers that are filling in for the strikers are scabs and crossing the picket line. * Spread the news, their demands, and encourage solidarity with these workers. Strength is in numbers and solidarity. When that breaks down, the movement breaks down. It's why many States and companies do everything in their power to prevent the wage-earners from organizing effectively.
  - Spivak 7y ago
    I feel like "not using Amazon" doesn't actually do much because they there's no way to send the signal that you're not buying because of the strike as opposed to a million other reasons you might not be spending. I think a more effective solution would be to keep buying like you normally do but if/when your service is worse due to being short staffed send a message to their support.
    - EarthIsHome 7y ago
      > I feel like "not using Amazon" doesn't actually do much... Whoever is fulfilling your order during the strike is a scab, and you're helping pay their wage. It is destructive to the strike. It's about solidarity with the working people and helping with their demands. The point is to not give money to businesses who workers are striking against. > I think a more effective solution would be to keep buying like you normally do... Doing this destroys the strike.
      - Spivak 7y ago
voz_ 7y ago
A lot of times these people are making well below minimum wage, and even that is a hilariously low number. I want the people delivering my food to be healthy, stable, and financially secure. Don't you?
- jedberg 7y ago
  I think most people want that. But they also want it to be cheap. And those things don't work well together.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- twomoretime 7y ago
  >I want the people delivering my food to be healthy, stable, and financially secure. Don't you? Sure, but obviously we also want cheap stuff and free delivery. Particularly in cases of low income/layoffs, since everyone depends on grocery delivery right now.
- chrischen 7y ago
  Sounds like the government’s job. Isn’t that what minimum wage is for? Kind of cruel to put their livelihoods at the hands of the whim of generous customers.
- sneak 7y ago
  The people who are in line to take their jobs as-is probably don't want that. They'd prefer that they get fired, so that they can work instead of the people who don't like the job as-is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages Striking generally only works for skilled workers. Unskilled workers going on strike in the middle of some of the highest unemployment figures recently seen is not going to end well for those people. They'll simply be replaced by those who are more hungry. This is not a problem with the workers, or with the employers, or with the current situation: it is a problem inherent to unskilled, undifferentiated labor.
lipstone 7y ago
It's obviously bad PR to deny their claims right now, but I can't imagine this working. Sets a precedent that Amazon will go to great lengths to not set.
jdkee 7y ago
This pandemic could possibly be an historical event for labor policy in the U.S. akin to the miner's strikes in the early 1900s. Laying the groundwork for labor protections, unions and the New Deal. https://www.iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-coal-strike-of-1919-in-indiana-county-and-its-aftermath/ https://www.iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-coal... https://iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-windber-miners--strike-for-union-in-1922-1923/ https://iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-windber-...
- elicash 7y ago
  It also could do the opposite, as small businesses get crushed and only larger businesses recover -- creating more income inequality and leading to the most powerful having even more power over our economy. Workers may have less ability to negotiate for raises, thankful just to have any job at all. Unions themselves may see losses as people are laid off and have even fewer resources to put into organizing workers, etc... Even non-union protections directly by government like sick leave could be harder as businesses lobby that they can't afford to provide it at this time. (In my view, this pandemic shows we can't afford NOT to. But it's a debate to be had.) I think people have a lot of control over how this goes, I'm not saying it's hopeless. Just saying that I don't think it's a naturally-occurring phenomenon. The Great Recession wasn't great for the labor movement.
  - claudeganon 7y ago
    Not necessarily because the monopolies themselves are then more prone to disruption. If Amazon’s the only game in town and Amazon workers go on strike, you have problems that can’t be resolved by competitors rushing in to fill the gaps.
    - elicash 7y ago
      My experience is that the more powerful the employer, the harder it is to organize. To your direct point, this is why you organize entire industries within a given geography for service work rather than employer by employer. (It's also why there's been a big push over the last year towards sectoral bargaining.)
InTheArena 7y ago
There needs to be a corporate framework for this type of gig economy. Some structure that allows companies to pay into general benefits on a as-earned basis, without forcing the definition to be a classic "employee" which no-one (except unions) wants. Ideally it should be across corporations. I know a ton of people who drive for both Uber and Lyft, depending on who pays better. Thats a critical element - there needs to be a market of companies for people to work for, but they still need solid benefits and protections. Think of this as a next generation union type structure.
- adamsea 7y ago
  Yes. And / or a law : ).
- drstewart 7y ago
  >Some structure that allows companies to pay into general benefits on a as-earned basis, without forcing the definition to be a classic "employee" which no-one (except unions) wants. I don't know why this doesn't come up more. People get hung up on whether contractor or FTE fits gig workers better, without ever suggesting there's a categorization issue here that could best be solved with a new category.
- inscionent 7y ago
  That's just socialism with more steps...
  - adultSwim 7y ago
    Socialism isn't the government doing things. Socialism is worker control of the economy, ie much more democracy.
    - InTheArena 7y ago
      Socialism tends to be implemented the government doing things ineffectively, which is part of the reason Socialism has the reputation that it doesn't want.
- 7y ago
mataug 7y ago
Wouldn't it be a better idea to pressure the state Govt to pass laws or executive orders to mandate that Companies provide benefits such as Hazard Pay, PPE for workers, Paid Sick Leave instead of striking and attempting to pressure Instacart / Amazon ? There's a record number of unemployed people right now [1] and, if some workers strike, wouldn't it be easier for companies to just hire more people ? [1]:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-run-of-american-job-growth-has-ended-11585215000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-run-of-american-job-gr...
- claudeganon 7y ago
  Organized labor has traditionally driven those changes in laws from the bottom up. So, if you want to get to that legislation, this is a good place to start.
- omegaworks 7y ago
  It's not an either or, it's a yes and. Everyone should be contacting their representatives in government as much as possible AND these workers should strike to leverage their labor's clear value to get basic essential protections. If you use these services you are impacted by the health and safety of the workers that make the services possible. You have a stake here. Call your people: https://ballotpedia.org/Who_represents_me https://ballotpedia.org/Who_represents_me
owyn 7y ago
Every news article I've read (even articles published this morning) says that they "plan to walk out" on Monday, but have they actually started to do that? Instacart is still letting me place orders (estimated delivery Thurs of course) Mercury news article from 11:15am says: "It’s not clear when the strike would start Monday or how many workers would participate."
whb07 7y ago
Can anyone who isn't part of the über elite in tech actually provide a point of view on this? It is very easy for the well-off to always comment with "Not paid enough and so i always add a 25% tip on top". Let's get this straight, out of the possible jobs that exist that require no experience, no education, very little mental or physical risk or exhaustion, this one ranks probably near the very top. There are very many jobs that have the same requirements that don't pay as well or are very demanding physically, mentally or both. Why are some of the other jobs that have to exist quickly forgotten? Is it because of the exposure to the healthy and wealthier techie crowd?
- elicash 7y ago
  I work in the labor movement. How can you say, in this moment, that they aren't facing physical risk? Their demands are specifically focused on the exposure they face to this virus. Also, I don't know if you've ever had a job that's underpaid where you work with the public, but it's incredibly exhausting and frustrating and nothing like my comparatively stress-free job where I get to sit at a computer all day. Now imagine doing that in this moment of crisis where you're doing deliveries so that others don't have to risk themselves! To your specific question, obviously something about Instacart will get more play on a tech site than, say, sanitation workers. I don't think that's odd. But there's no reason to assume that one needs to come at the expense at another -- if you start a thread about sanitation workers, I'd be first to upvote it.
  - chrischen 7y ago
    They should be paid for their work and for the risk they face, however that price is built into the market, and weighed against people who also need jobs right now. By artificially raising the wages for some, you would have to deny work altogether for others. You cannot employ everyone and also raise their wages (a thermodynamic impossibility). As far as tipping goes, nurses are not tipped for their work. Nor are doctors. Tipping should not be part of the equation as it puts too much variability in the pay for these people. They should be paid based on the risk and the need for their work, not based on the whims of some people.
magwa101 7y ago
PAY THEM.
verify_sirrah 7y ago
I'm sure there are many people willing to take those jobs in these times.
- adultSwim 7y ago
  Scabs
dang 7y ago
A related thread from 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22707869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22707869 Edit: also related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727741
paul7986 7y ago
Personally my family and friends have stopped getting any type of carry out or drive thru food. You have no idea if the preparer has covid.. has coughed/sneezed/etc on the food. For now and unfortunately for us it's best we prepare our own food. Wash hands, open food from grocer, wash hands again to cook it and maybe wash hands again before eating it It might be extreme, but until we fully have a full grasp on COVID we believe this is the best way to keep it at bay for us.
- madengr 7y ago
  Well they say it’s not transmissible via the digestive track, but my family is doing the same.
jelliclesfarm 7y ago
Industries ripe for automation.
quotemstr 7y ago
We're in the middle of a situation in which delivery is the only reasonable option for many people to get goods and the people staffing the delivery infrastructure go on strike and demand extraordinary pay? Shame on the strikers for exploiting a catastrophe. There are millions of people out of work right now. Fire and replace all the strikers.
- wbronitsky 7y ago
  I find it amazing that humans have the capacity to have empathy for one class, people who might die from an illness, yet have zero empathy for another, people who are currently working in a now high-risk job who are demanding fair pay. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
  - quotemstr 7y ago
    Who decides what pay is fair?
    - magicalist 7y ago
      > Who decides what pay is fair? >>> ...demand extraordinary pay? Shame on the strikers for exploiting a catastrophe... I mean, apparently you felt qualified...
      - quotemstr 7y ago
        > I mean, apparently you felt qualified... My benchmark is the market. That people are working for whatever Amazon is paying is evidence that their wages are adequate. What's your line of reasoning? Is Amazon somehow enslaving these people?
        adultSwim 7y ago
        It's evidence that this is their current best opportunity. 1.5 million American families live on less than $2 / person / day
saltedonion 7y ago
Can someone with knowledge in Labour protection explain to me why we shouldn’t let that labor market decide how much these workers are paid? After all, these technology platforms are making supply and demand more transparent, and theoretically, market pay rate should adjust quickly to reflect those changes.
- pojntfx 7y ago
  Because people will die otherwise. God damn libertarians
- charlesu 7y ago
  Do you feel the same way about the federal stimulus bill? That we should simply let "the market" decide whether a given company survives?
  - GhostVII 7y ago
    That's kind of a false equivalency. The purpose of the government is to step in when the market fails, so of course it is going to do things that support businesses and individuals which would normally have failed. However that is not generally the purpose of businesses, they generally just pay whatever the market decides, so paying people more even when they don't have to would be deviating from this.
    - charlesu 7y ago
      Labor is a market too. I see no reason why we should support government action for one part of the market and accept ruthless market mechanics for the other. Both are important to the health of our society. The concept of "the market" is so all encompassing as to be meaningless. It's just system justification at this point. We could just as easily call it economic duress. Very often people accept what they do because they lack the power to do otherwise.
- drewrv 7y ago
  The "labor market" is a social construct created by laws and customs. Collective action is one of those customs, and it's supported by laws. That the company paying workers has an app shouldn't matter.
thoraway1010 7y ago
We're still getting amazon deliveries at least today. Can someone clarify when Amazon deliveries will be stopping?
- wharnal 7y ago
  The instacart strike is national but the amazon one is only at one warehouse on Staten Island, so most deliveries will probably be fine.
  - thoraway1010 7y ago
    Got it. Given their warehouse is striking that's a BIG problem for Amazon (and instacart obviously too). Do they expect to have to shutdown deliveries to new york or stop instacart deliveries nationwide for this or future strikes? Crazy to be seeing these Amazon workers go on strike headlines!
- stuntkite 7y ago
  PrimeNow stopped for me a week ago. A considerable portion of amazon (maybe as much as 2/3) now sets delivery dates to 30 days out. I have multiple packages that are a week late with no reason reported or explainable by amazon support. I live in Austin, tx.
GhostVII 7y ago
How many workers are actually involved in this strike? The news and medium articles don't give any indication as to whether this is just a few dozen workers putting out a statement, or a larger group.
david_w 7y ago
I've worked lots of these jobs in my time. Here is what I would feel better about: 1.) Everyone gets fever checked at the door starting shift. Fever people go home. 2.) Scheduling is devised to segregate employees into non-overlapping groups. We're a work family and we work together in some area. Whatever has to be done to the schedule or even the job details itself to effect this, as far as possible, is done. The goal is to make each family unit as small and physically localized as possible. 3.) Obviously, everyone gets a mask when they become available. If you happen to have access to a mask, then bring it and use it- you're protecting yourself and everyone else around you (from you). (Woodworkers, potters, construction and cement workers etc. normally had a ready supply of N95 and N100 masks on hand in the beforetime). 4.) Hourly hand washing-sanitizing or whatever your skin can bear. 5.) Social distancing rules apply to customers and employees both (thinking of grocery stores here) communicated through signage, flyers and serious verbal intervention if needed. 4.) Employees are authorized and ordered to do what they have to do to keep their personal distance from obtuse / heedless / intruding public without respecting usual rules of "courtesy" and without fear of management discipline. So also between employees. 5.) Delivery people live outside, w/ exception of bathroom breaks, which can also be taken at delivery people's residences, where practical. 6.) Deliveries are assembled and placed outside by inside people. 7.) Inside people do not get close to outside people. 8.) Outside people do not get close to customers, including inside customers homes, enclosed porches, etc. Knowledgeable healthcare professionals please improve this.
- fyfy18 7y ago
  Regarding #5, I imagine there are a lot of portaloos just sitting around, as there are no festivals and outdoor events going on this summer.
freepor 7y ago
My Amazon delivery order arrived perfectly this morning. But I support their meager demands and will double the tip on today's order.
Uhuhreally 7y ago
Along with health workers and delivery drivers they're the people society actually depends on
racecar789 7y ago
A "hero" title should command "hero" pay.
searchableguy 7y ago
I don't understand the obsession of unions on HN (majority are most likely tech workers without unions or have participated in one. I guess it could be exotic or the grass is greener on the other side) Could I please have some papers shedding more light on productivity, societal gains, monopolistic behaviour etc resulting from unionizing an industry? Not just perceived benefit but what happens in practice. Ignoring whether unions are good or not. I find it odd that people here want another level of management and bureaucracy in their work environment when simpler solution like universal income exists. Universal income will allow low paid workers to stay at home while not worrying about grinding to put food at their plates. Allowing them more power individually to negotiate better terms with their employer rather than having to go through a middle management layer which may or may not be receptive to your request. I have a dumb question, what happens when an industry is controlled by one segregated group by their sex, age, race or any differentiating factor that is permanent. Would that not be a challenge with unions? How do you enforce "diversity" in unions whatever that may be? Would universal employee benefit from the government not encourage more growth as small businesses don't need to factor in a lot when hiring workers and will only need to pay simple tax to the government based on any factor ranging from employee count to revenue?

326 points by onewhonknocks 7y ago

hpoe 7y ago

Well I guess all of those abstract discussions about what would happen if they strike is now a reality. I just hope they can be okay living with the reality of people who needed things, especially life saving items. But hey at least they can make sure they get theirs, and hell who gives a damn what you can do for your country when you can put the screws to people who need your services. You stop being a hero when you stop making sacrifices.

socalnate1 7y ago
This is a very uncharitable take, here are three things they are asking for from the article, all of which seem very reasonable to me: "Workers from both Amazon and Instacart want more access to paid sick time off. At this time, it's available only to those who have tested positive for the coronavirus or get placed on mandatory self-quarantine. Amazon workers want their warehouse to be closed for a longer cleaning, with guaranteed pay. Instacart's grocery delivery gig workers are asking for disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer and better pay to offset the risk they are taking."
bobthepanda 7y ago
Emphasis mine, from TFA: > Workers from both Amazon and Instacart want more access to paid sick time off. At this time, it's available only to those who have tested positive for the coronavirus or get placed on mandatory self-quarantine. > Amazon workers want their warehouse to be closed for a longer cleaning with guaranteed pay. > Instacart's grocery delivery gig workers are asking for disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer and better pay to offset the risk they are taking. "Making sacrifices" is counterproductive cheap talk if it just ends up making the whole logistics chain infected and worse off.
evanlivingston 7y ago
They probably are not asking to be considered heros.
onetimemanytime 7y ago
>>I just hope they can be okay living with the reality of people who needed things, especially life saving items...You stop being a hero when you stop making sacrifices. Amazon is hiring, go and become a hero. (Risking your life for less than a living wage? F that.)
elicash 7y ago
People handling our food not having sick leave, not having access to things like soap and hand sanitizer -- that effects their customers, too, and puts them at risk. Food deliveries are generally safe for customers to receive assuming we wash our hands, but that doesn't mean what happens to people on the other end of the delivery - whether they're sick, whether they have access to PPE - doesn't have impacts on us, too.
sl1ck731 7y ago
They're gig workers trying to make ends meet, not drafted soldiers. I can't believe this is the take you got from this.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  It makes sense that PMC types see these workers as disposable infantry in the army of Capitalism, given that they fantasize themselves as its officer class.
empath75 7y ago
What are you doing to help?
throwanem 7y ago
You're not arguing that heroes make sacrifices. You're arguing for some people to be sacrificed. I see nothing noble there. And it seems a rather self-defeating argument, besides. Assuming you haven't yet got COVID-19, would you really like the people who handle your food and ship your goods to be working asymptomatic and shedding virus, and unequipped to protect either themselves or you?
- threatofrain 7y ago
  As unsavory as it is, I do believe trading humans for humans is part and parcel with government policy. What happened in Wuhan was trading people for people, for example. If you can't talk about trading people, then in a practical sense you can't talk about policy except in circumstances where you find your own speech squeeky clean and safe. Furthermore, in a democracy, if people don't talk about trading people, then someone else will just have to take up that decision, but now the discussion is moved to a room where people don't see. Policy is a dirty job. As for the people who are working right now, what people deserve is the wrong word. The market is a cold world, and so you negotiate for what you can before you can't.
  - throwanem 7y ago
    I think you're wrong about all of that, but I'm not interested in arguing it with you. Even by your own standard, though, great-grandparent commenter is bound to speak openly, rather than being coy about the fact that he's arguing that the life and wellbeing of some should be sacrificed to improve that of others.
DevKoala 7y ago
Sitting behind a computer really kills any empathy huh?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

elicash 7y ago

Here are their demands: https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency-walk-off-ebdf11b6995a https://medium.com/@GigWorkersCollective/instacart-emergency... - Safety precautions at no cost to workers — PPE (at minimum hand sanitizer, disinfectant wipes/sprays and soap). - Hazard pay — an extra $5 per order and defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. - An extension and expansion of pay for workers impacted by COVID-19 — anyone who has a doctor’s note for either a preexisting condition that’s a known risk factor or requiring a self-quarantine. - The deadline to qualify for these benefits must be extended beyond April 8th.

TAForObvReasons 7y ago
> defaulting the in-app tip amount to at least 10% of the order total. There was controversy in the past with DoorDash effectively pocketing the tips (https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-general-sues-doordash-pocketing-tips-67138480 https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/dc-attorney-gene...) which makes me wary about tipping in these apps -- are InstaCart and Amazon doing the same?
- mackey 7y ago
  At least with Amazon/Whole Foods, it says the entire tip goes to the workers.
- pen2l 7y ago
  I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. Something strange by the way, is that tipping is variable. Eg my ~$110 order yesterday automatically tacked on a $7 tip, my ~$50 order of three days had a $5 dollar tip automatically added. Anyone have an idea how they are calculating this?
  - atwebb 7y ago
    >I see when ordering online with whole foods /amazon a note saying that drivers get 100% of the tip. If I remember correctly, the prior controversy was that DoorDash (or whomever) would give them the tip 100% but then take an equal or weighted portion from the company's contribution.

meritt 7y ago

In addition to the healthcare workers, we're going to look back a few years from now and recognize all the delivery drivers, package handlers, and grocery store cashiers as the "First Responders" of this crisis.

malandrew 7y ago
Ideally we automate as many of those jobs as possible so that as few people as possible are put in harms way and contribute to ongoing spread of the virus.
- ch4s3 7y ago
  You imagine that in the span of weeks to months that picking oddly shaped items from bins, packing them into boxes of varying sizes, then driving on multiple legs can be meaningfully automated? I'm just not seeing it.
  - djohnston 7y ago
    Not for this crisis, to be sure, but w/in OP's timeframe of a few years? They're throwing enough money at this exact problem that it doesn't seem out of left field

DevKoala 7y ago

This is necessary. Is there was a way to show support for this cause as an Amazon customer? Ditching Amazon as a single individual doesn’t send a message.

EarthIsHome 7y ago
> Is there was a way to show support for this cause as an Amazon customer? Yes: * During the strike, show solidarity by not crossing picket lines. Don't use the service, and don't patron the business for the duration of the strike. This is because during the strike, the workers that are filling in for the strikers are scabs and crossing the picket line. * Spread the news, their demands, and encourage solidarity with these workers. Strength is in numbers and solidarity. When that breaks down, the movement breaks down. It's why many States and companies do everything in their power to prevent the wage-earners from organizing effectively.
- Spivak 7y ago
  I feel like "not using Amazon" doesn't actually do much because they there's no way to send the signal that you're not buying because of the strike as opposed to a million other reasons you might not be spending. I think a more effective solution would be to keep buying like you normally do but if/when your service is worse due to being short staffed send a message to their support.
  - EarthIsHome 7y ago
    > I feel like "not using Amazon" doesn't actually do much... Whoever is fulfilling your order during the strike is a scab, and you're helping pay their wage. It is destructive to the strike. It's about solidarity with the working people and helping with their demands. The point is to not give money to businesses who workers are striking against. > I think a more effective solution would be to keep buying like you normally do... Doing this destroys the strike.
    - Spivak 7y ago

voz_ 7y ago

A lot of times these people are making well below minimum wage, and even that is a hilariously low number. I want the people delivering my food to be healthy, stable, and financially secure. Don't you?

jedberg 7y ago
I think most people want that. But they also want it to be cheap. And those things don't work well together.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
twomoretime 7y ago
>I want the people delivering my food to be healthy, stable, and financially secure. Don't you? Sure, but obviously we also want cheap stuff and free delivery. Particularly in cases of low income/layoffs, since everyone depends on grocery delivery right now.
chrischen 7y ago
Sounds like the government’s job. Isn’t that what minimum wage is for? Kind of cruel to put their livelihoods at the hands of the whim of generous customers.
sneak 7y ago
The people who are in line to take their jobs as-is probably don't want that. They'd prefer that they get fired, so that they can work instead of the people who don't like the job as-is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages Striking generally only works for skilled workers. Unskilled workers going on strike in the middle of some of the highest unemployment figures recently seen is not going to end well for those people. They'll simply be replaced by those who are more hungry. This is not a problem with the workers, or with the employers, or with the current situation: it is a problem inherent to unskilled, undifferentiated labor.

lipstone 7y ago

It's obviously bad PR to deny their claims right now, but I can't imagine this working. Sets a precedent that Amazon will go to great lengths to not set.

jdkee 7y ago

This pandemic could possibly be an historical event for labor policy in the U.S. akin to the miner's strikes in the early 1900s. Laying the groundwork for labor protections, unions and the New Deal. https://www.iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-coal-strike-of-1919-in-indiana-county-and-its-aftermath/ https://www.iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-coal... https://iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-windber-miners--strike-for-union-in-1922-1923/ https://iup.edu/archives/coal/unions-and-mining/the-windber-...

elicash 7y ago
It also could do the opposite, as small businesses get crushed and only larger businesses recover -- creating more income inequality and leading to the most powerful having even more power over our economy. Workers may have less ability to negotiate for raises, thankful just to have any job at all. Unions themselves may see losses as people are laid off and have even fewer resources to put into organizing workers, etc... Even non-union protections directly by government like sick leave could be harder as businesses lobby that they can't afford to provide it at this time. (In my view, this pandemic shows we can't afford NOT to. But it's a debate to be had.) I think people have a lot of control over how this goes, I'm not saying it's hopeless. Just saying that I don't think it's a naturally-occurring phenomenon. The Great Recession wasn't great for the labor movement.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  Not necessarily because the monopolies themselves are then more prone to disruption. If Amazon’s the only game in town and Amazon workers go on strike, you have problems that can’t be resolved by competitors rushing in to fill the gaps.
  - elicash 7y ago
    My experience is that the more powerful the employer, the harder it is to organize. To your direct point, this is why you organize entire industries within a given geography for service work rather than employer by employer. (It's also why there's been a big push over the last year towards sectoral bargaining.)

InTheArena 7y ago

There needs to be a corporate framework for this type of gig economy. Some structure that allows companies to pay into general benefits on a as-earned basis, without forcing the definition to be a classic "employee" which no-one (except unions) wants. Ideally it should be across corporations. I know a ton of people who drive for both Uber and Lyft, depending on who pays better. Thats a critical element - there needs to be a market of companies for people to work for, but they still need solid benefits and protections. Think of this as a next generation union type structure.

adamsea 7y ago
Yes. And / or a law : ).
drstewart 7y ago
>Some structure that allows companies to pay into general benefits on a as-earned basis, without forcing the definition to be a classic "employee" which no-one (except unions) wants. I don't know why this doesn't come up more. People get hung up on whether contractor or FTE fits gig workers better, without ever suggesting there's a categorization issue here that could best be solved with a new category.
inscionent 7y ago
That's just socialism with more steps...
- adultSwim 7y ago
  Socialism isn't the government doing things. Socialism is worker control of the economy, ie much more democracy.
  - InTheArena 7y ago
    Socialism tends to be implemented the government doing things ineffectively, which is part of the reason Socialism has the reputation that it doesn't want.
7y ago

mataug 7y ago

Wouldn't it be a better idea to pressure the state Govt to pass laws or executive orders to mandate that Companies provide benefits such as Hazard Pay, PPE for workers, Paid Sick Leave instead of striking and attempting to pressure Instacart / Amazon ? There's a record number of unemployed people right now [1] and, if some workers strike, wouldn't it be easier for companies to just hire more people ? [1]:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-run-of-american-job-growth-has-ended-11585215000 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-run-of-american-job-gr...

claudeganon 7y ago
Organized labor has traditionally driven those changes in laws from the bottom up. So, if you want to get to that legislation, this is a good place to start.
omegaworks 7y ago
It's not an either or, it's a yes and. Everyone should be contacting their representatives in government as much as possible AND these workers should strike to leverage their labor's clear value to get basic essential protections. If you use these services you are impacted by the health and safety of the workers that make the services possible. You have a stake here. Call your people: https://ballotpedia.org/Who_represents_me https://ballotpedia.org/Who_represents_me

owyn 7y ago

Every news article I've read (even articles published this morning) says that they "plan to walk out" on Monday, but have they actually started to do that? Instacart is still letting me place orders (estimated delivery Thurs of course) Mercury news article from 11:15am says: "It’s not clear when the strike would start Monday or how many workers would participate."

whb07 7y ago

Can anyone who isn't part of the über elite in tech actually provide a point of view on this? It is very easy for the well-off to always comment with "Not paid enough and so i always add a 25% tip on top". Let's get this straight, out of the possible jobs that exist that require no experience, no education, very little mental or physical risk or exhaustion, this one ranks probably near the very top. There are very many jobs that have the same requirements that don't pay as well or are very demanding physically, mentally or both. Why are some of the other jobs that have to exist quickly forgotten? Is it because of the exposure to the healthy and wealthier techie crowd?

elicash 7y ago
I work in the labor movement. How can you say, in this moment, that they aren't facing physical risk? Their demands are specifically focused on the exposure they face to this virus. Also, I don't know if you've ever had a job that's underpaid where you work with the public, but it's incredibly exhausting and frustrating and nothing like my comparatively stress-free job where I get to sit at a computer all day. Now imagine doing that in this moment of crisis where you're doing deliveries so that others don't have to risk themselves! To your specific question, obviously something about Instacart will get more play on a tech site than, say, sanitation workers. I don't think that's odd. But there's no reason to assume that one needs to come at the expense at another -- if you start a thread about sanitation workers, I'd be first to upvote it.
- chrischen 7y ago
  They should be paid for their work and for the risk they face, however that price is built into the market, and weighed against people who also need jobs right now. By artificially raising the wages for some, you would have to deny work altogether for others. You cannot employ everyone and also raise their wages (a thermodynamic impossibility). As far as tipping goes, nurses are not tipped for their work. Nor are doctors. Tipping should not be part of the equation as it puts too much variability in the pay for these people. They should be paid based on the risk and the need for their work, not based on the whims of some people.

magwa101 7y ago

PAY THEM.

verify_sirrah 7y ago

I'm sure there are many people willing to take those jobs in these times.

adultSwim 7y ago
Scabs

dang 7y ago

A related thread from 2 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22707869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22707869 Edit: also related: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727741 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22727741

paul7986 7y ago

Personally my family and friends have stopped getting any type of carry out or drive thru food. You have no idea if the preparer has covid.. has coughed/sneezed/etc on the food. For now and unfortunately for us it's best we prepare our own food. Wash hands, open food from grocer, wash hands again to cook it and maybe wash hands again before eating it It might be extreme, but until we fully have a full grasp on COVID we believe this is the best way to keep it at bay for us.

madengr 7y ago
Well they say it’s not transmissible via the digestive track, but my family is doing the same.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago

Industries ripe for automation.

quotemstr 7y ago

We're in the middle of a situation in which delivery is the only reasonable option for many people to get goods and the people staffing the delivery infrastructure go on strike and demand extraordinary pay? Shame on the strikers for exploiting a catastrophe. There are millions of people out of work right now. Fire and replace all the strikers.

wbronitsky 7y ago
I find it amazing that humans have the capacity to have empathy for one class, people who might die from an illness, yet have zero empathy for another, people who are currently working in a now high-risk job who are demanding fair pay. The cognitive dissonance is astounding.
- quotemstr 7y ago
  Who decides what pay is fair?
  - magicalist 7y ago
    > Who decides what pay is fair? >>> ...demand extraordinary pay? Shame on the strikers for exploiting a catastrophe... I mean, apparently you felt qualified...
    - quotemstr 7y ago
      > I mean, apparently you felt qualified... My benchmark is the market. That people are working for whatever Amazon is paying is evidence that their wages are adequate. What's your line of reasoning? Is Amazon somehow enslaving these people?
      - adultSwim 7y ago
        It's evidence that this is their current best opportunity. 1.5 million American families live on less than $2 / person / day

saltedonion 7y ago

Can someone with knowledge in Labour protection explain to me why we shouldn’t let that labor market decide how much these workers are paid? After all, these technology platforms are making supply and demand more transparent, and theoretically, market pay rate should adjust quickly to reflect those changes.

pojntfx 7y ago
Because people will die otherwise. God damn libertarians
charlesu 7y ago
Do you feel the same way about the federal stimulus bill? That we should simply let "the market" decide whether a given company survives?
- GhostVII 7y ago
  That's kind of a false equivalency. The purpose of the government is to step in when the market fails, so of course it is going to do things that support businesses and individuals which would normally have failed. However that is not generally the purpose of businesses, they generally just pay whatever the market decides, so paying people more even when they don't have to would be deviating from this.
  - charlesu 7y ago
    Labor is a market too. I see no reason why we should support government action for one part of the market and accept ruthless market mechanics for the other. Both are important to the health of our society. The concept of "the market" is so all encompassing as to be meaningless. It's just system justification at this point. We could just as easily call it economic duress. Very often people accept what they do because they lack the power to do otherwise.
drewrv 7y ago
The "labor market" is a social construct created by laws and customs. Collective action is one of those customs, and it's supported by laws. That the company paying workers has an app shouldn't matter.

thoraway1010 7y ago

We're still getting amazon deliveries at least today. Can someone clarify when Amazon deliveries will be stopping?

wharnal 7y ago
The instacart strike is national but the amazon one is only at one warehouse on Staten Island, so most deliveries will probably be fine.
- thoraway1010 7y ago
  Got it. Given their warehouse is striking that's a BIG problem for Amazon (and instacart obviously too). Do they expect to have to shutdown deliveries to new york or stop instacart deliveries nationwide for this or future strikes? Crazy to be seeing these Amazon workers go on strike headlines!
stuntkite 7y ago
PrimeNow stopped for me a week ago. A considerable portion of amazon (maybe as much as 2/3) now sets delivery dates to 30 days out. I have multiple packages that are a week late with no reason reported or explainable by amazon support. I live in Austin, tx.

GhostVII 7y ago

How many workers are actually involved in this strike? The news and medium articles don't give any indication as to whether this is just a few dozen workers putting out a statement, or a larger group.

david_w 7y ago

I've worked lots of these jobs in my time. Here is what I would feel better about: 1.) Everyone gets fever checked at the door starting shift. Fever people go home. 2.) Scheduling is devised to segregate employees into non-overlapping groups. We're a work family and we work together in some area. Whatever has to be done to the schedule or even the job details itself to effect this, as far as possible, is done. The goal is to make each family unit as small and physically localized as possible. 3.) Obviously, everyone gets a mask when they become available. If you happen to have access to a mask, then bring it and use it- you're protecting yourself and everyone else around you (from you). (Woodworkers, potters, construction and cement workers etc. normally had a ready supply of N95 and N100 masks on hand in the beforetime). 4.) Hourly hand washing-sanitizing or whatever your skin can bear. 5.) Social distancing rules apply to customers and employees both (thinking of grocery stores here) communicated through signage, flyers and serious verbal intervention if needed. 4.) Employees are authorized and ordered to do what they have to do to keep their personal distance from obtuse / heedless / intruding public without respecting usual rules of "courtesy" and without fear of management discipline. So also between employees. 5.) Delivery people live outside, w/ exception of bathroom breaks, which can also be taken at delivery people's residences, where practical. 6.) Deliveries are assembled and placed outside by inside people. 7.) Inside people do not get close to outside people. 8.) Outside people do not get close to customers, including inside customers homes, enclosed porches, etc. Knowledgeable healthcare professionals please improve this.

fyfy18 7y ago
Regarding #5, I imagine there are a lot of portaloos just sitting around, as there are no festivals and outdoor events going on this summer.

freepor 7y ago

My Amazon delivery order arrived perfectly this morning. But I support their meager demands and will double the tip on today's order.

Uhuhreally 7y ago

Along with health workers and delivery drivers they're the people society actually depends on

racecar789 7y ago

A "hero" title should command "hero" pay.

searchableguy 7y ago

I don't understand the obsession of unions on HN (majority are most likely tech workers without unions or have participated in one. I guess it could be exotic or the grass is greener on the other side) Could I please have some papers shedding more light on productivity, societal gains, monopolistic behaviour etc resulting from unionizing an industry? Not just perceived benefit but what happens in practice. Ignoring whether unions are good or not. I find it odd that people here want another level of management and bureaucracy in their work environment when simpler solution like universal income exists. Universal income will allow low paid workers to stay at home while not worrying about grinding to put food at their plates. Allowing them more power individually to negotiate better terms with their employer rather than having to go through a middle management layer which may or may not be receptive to your request. I have a dumb question, what happens when an industry is controlled by one segregated group by their sex, age, race or any differentiating factor that is permanent. Would that not be a challenge with unions? How do you enforce "diversity" in unions whatever that may be? Would universal employee benefit from the government not encourage more growth as small businesses don't need to factor in a lot when hiring workers and will only need to pay simple tax to the government based on any factor ranging from employee count to revenue?