7 ms·

Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation? A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere B. "If you leave the house, I'll call t

by lmkg 7y ago

Which do you think matters more to a person in an abusive situation? A. Paragraph two of some legal document somewhere B. "If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out." I don't disagree with your last paragraph: There are other related issues and maybe some of them are worse. But how this actually plays out in an abusive situation is a fair bit removed from what the executive order says.

mathdev 7y ago
"If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out." Funny how those are almost the exact words that parents of my girlfriend used in an attempt to make her stay. She was terrified of spending an extended period of time at home with her father who normally works abroad and visits only for holidays.
catalogia 7y ago
Given that lifting quarantines seems infeasible, what do you suppose should be done instead? Same message, just communicated better?
- kick 7y ago
  When trying to protect people (or, more accurately, trying not to hurt people) in low-information or high-stress situations (both very common for abusive situations), you can't throw something that essential into the second paragraph of a document that few outside of pundits will ever read. The goal would be for the exception to be noticeable-enough that it ended up in most headlines. How to achieve that is an interesting thing to think about, but it's what should have been done.
  - zepto 7y ago
    Realistically, people who stay in abusive relationships were already stuck. The problem wasn’t cause by the lockdown. Only compounded. Changing the presentation of a document won’t change this. What would, is a society that doesn’t tolerate the problem, and provides material support for the abused. We are a long way from that.
    - cies 7y ago
      Someone who cannot leave a relationship in which abuse did not just take place once, but repeated (hence "abusive"); when what should society do that it should not already be doing to everyone? * ensure you have food and shelter * ensure reasonably safe * ensure that children are admitted to some school * ensure you dont sink into deep poverty When a society cannot help on these points, what use is requesting these for the small sub category of marginalized that are so because of an abusive relationship, that they themselves are usually to some extend are continued to be pulled back into?
      - zepto 7y ago
        You are right. There is no use requesting these things for a small group of marginalized people. Until society provides them for everyone, it cannot tackle the problem of abuse.
      - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
        Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad state of affairs is many abused people are gaslighted and brainwashed so they stay with the abuser. These forms of coercive mental conditioning can last a lifetime. It happened to a close friend of mine’s sister. She ended up joining a bizarre religious cult where the leader would find young people and brainwash them into staying with the cult. I attended one of these gatherings and they attempted to recruit me as well. They’d send multiple young women over wearing very revealing clothing, extolling how great the cult was, how great the leader was, etc. But these types of mind control schemes don’t work me.
        cies 7y ago
        > Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad Please enlighten me. Given for instance the enormeous amount, 6.4 trillion, is spend by the US on wars the last 20 year. That's about 888 million per day, everyday over the last 20 year. And who benefitted? You tell me. Now lets divide that by the number of americans, it comes down to 80,000 dollars per month per american. That could have been awarded as a social program to increase the happiness of peolpe, or that needs to be paid by those same people in either taxes or inflation (or printing money, aka quantative easing, as bankers refer to it). Now you compare that --in my view rather utopian view-- to domestica violence, and conclude that DV is worse! Dude, you may have some hatred to anything socialist, but this is next level. I know a good one. I take the 80k/month, you the abuse. Pfff...
xwdv 7y ago
If an abuser says B and the abused knows about A why wouldn’t they just throw that in their face and then leave? If you know your rights you’ll have the confidence to act.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- pureliquidhw 7y ago
  If you're in an abusive relationship, there's likely complex factors preventing the abused from throwing that paragraph in their abuser's face and leaving.
- macintux 7y ago
  Victims of abuse have typically been trapped financially, emotionally, and physically long before the lockdown occurred. Abusers have many ways of keeping their victims from “asserting their rights”.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
leetcrew 7y ago
is this a realistic hypothetical? most people in abusive situations either don't have another place to go in the first place, or the abuser has leverage (eg, a child) to keep them in that home. wouldn't the threat of calling the cops be only a marginal source of leverage?
- pdpi 7y ago
  The only leverage you need is the “emotional upper ground”, if you will. Just the fact that you’re on the receiving end of a threat matters more than how realistic the threat is, especially in a pre-existing abusiva relationship.
- hartator 7y ago
  Anything can be source of leverage. Doesn’t need to make sense.
- ip26 7y ago
  A core part of many abusive relationships is the message "No one else cares about you, no one loves you, I'm the only one who will help you". The abuser will socially isolate the victim, cutting off friendships & family. What friends & family remain, the abuser will work to discredit or estrange, all the while telling the victim the abuser is the only person they can rely on. I think you are imagining abuse victims as fully rational actors straining to break free, if only they had somewhere to go or full custody of their child. But a long time victim of this kind of abuse has been taught they are helpless, worthless, and alone. The only thing more frightening than staying, is leaving.
  - treeman79 7y ago
    In an abusive relationship. If I try and leave she threatens to call the cops. Uses every emotional trick to make it clear I have no wear to go. Lots of other emotional abuse. Next day she’s bright as can be. Confused as to why any of it bothers me. Kids are very much only reason staying. Took many years to break free of mental chains. Kids almost old enough to see through BS.
derefr 7y ago
An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.
- watwut 7y ago
  They are nit taken that seriously absent visible injuries. And statistically cops are more likely to be domestic abusers then general population.
  - skrtskrt 7y ago
    Yep, 40% vs 25%: https://kutv.com/news/local/40-of-police-officer-families-experience-domestic-violence-study-says https://kutv.com/news/local/40-of-police-officer-families-ex... https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-violence-nearly-twice-average-rate-2536928.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-viole...
    - londons_explore 7y ago
      Police officer training to be "dominant" and "be in control of all aspects of the situation" can easily intimidate family members too... Source: Friend of mine is a cop. Since he went through the ~2 year training program, he's become unpleasant to anyone he's in a private space with. Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        > Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it. Good grief. That doesn't exactly sound like friendship.
      - derefr 7y ago
        How the heck do cops get along with each-other in a stressful situation, if their training leads them to all feel the need to individually be in control of the same situation?
SkyBelow 7y ago
But by that logic, all laws by their existence and enforcement enables abusers. Even laws against abuse. Enforce the law against an abuser and send them to jail? Another abuser will use that to scare a victim of the same gender as the abuser jailed.

by lmkg 7y ago

mathdev 7y ago

"If you leave the house, I'll call the cops and tell them you're breaking quarantine, and then you'll go to jail and I'll be the only person who can get you out." Funny how those are almost the exact words that parents of my girlfriend used in an attempt to make her stay. She was terrified of spending an extended period of time at home with her father who normally works abroad and visits only for holidays.

catalogia 7y ago

Given that lifting quarantines seems infeasible, what do you suppose should be done instead? Same message, just communicated better?

kick 7y ago
When trying to protect people (or, more accurately, trying not to hurt people) in low-information or high-stress situations (both very common for abusive situations), you can't throw something that essential into the second paragraph of a document that few outside of pundits will ever read. The goal would be for the exception to be noticeable-enough that it ended up in most headlines. How to achieve that is an interesting thing to think about, but it's what should have been done.
- zepto 7y ago
  Realistically, people who stay in abusive relationships were already stuck. The problem wasn’t cause by the lockdown. Only compounded. Changing the presentation of a document won’t change this. What would, is a society that doesn’t tolerate the problem, and provides material support for the abused. We are a long way from that.
  - cies 7y ago
    Someone who cannot leave a relationship in which abuse did not just take place once, but repeated (hence "abusive"); when what should society do that it should not already be doing to everyone? * ensure you have food and shelter * ensure reasonably safe * ensure that children are admitted to some school * ensure you dont sink into deep poverty When a society cannot help on these points, what use is requesting these for the small sub category of marginalized that are so because of an abusive relationship, that they themselves are usually to some extend are continued to be pulled back into?
    - zepto 7y ago
      You are right. There is no use requesting these things for a small group of marginalized people. Until society provides them for everyone, it cannot tackle the problem of abuse.
    - 0x8BADF00D 7y ago
      Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad state of affairs is many abused people are gaslighted and brainwashed so they stay with the abuser. These forms of coercive mental conditioning can last a lifetime. It happened to a close friend of mine’s sister. She ended up joining a bizarre religious cult where the leader would find young people and brainwash them into staying with the cult. I attended one of these gatherings and they attempted to recruit me as well. They’d send multiple young women over wearing very revealing clothing, extolling how great the cult was, how great the leader was, etc. But these types of mind control schemes don’t work me.
      - cies 7y ago
        > Free stuff for everyone enables a level of governmental abuse that makes domestic violence seem tame in comparison. The sad Please enlighten me. Given for instance the enormeous amount, 6.4 trillion, is spend by the US on wars the last 20 year. That's about 888 million per day, everyday over the last 20 year. And who benefitted? You tell me. Now lets divide that by the number of americans, it comes down to 80,000 dollars per month per american. That could have been awarded as a social program to increase the happiness of peolpe, or that needs to be paid by those same people in either taxes or inflation (or printing money, aka quantative easing, as bankers refer to it). Now you compare that --in my view rather utopian view-- to domestica violence, and conclude that DV is worse! Dude, you may have some hatred to anything socialist, but this is next level. I know a good one. I take the 80k/month, you the abuse. Pfff...

xwdv 7y ago

If an abuser says B and the abused knows about A why wouldn’t they just throw that in their face and then leave? If you know your rights you’ll have the confidence to act.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pureliquidhw 7y ago
If you're in an abusive relationship, there's likely complex factors preventing the abused from throwing that paragraph in their abuser's face and leaving.
macintux 7y ago
Victims of abuse have typically been trapped financially, emotionally, and physically long before the lockdown occurred. Abusers have many ways of keeping their victims from “asserting their rights”.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

leetcrew 7y ago

is this a realistic hypothetical? most people in abusive situations either don't have another place to go in the first place, or the abuser has leverage (eg, a child) to keep them in that home. wouldn't the threat of calling the cops be only a marginal source of leverage?

pdpi 7y ago
The only leverage you need is the “emotional upper ground”, if you will. Just the fact that you’re on the receiving end of a threat matters more than how realistic the threat is, especially in a pre-existing abusiva relationship.
hartator 7y ago
Anything can be source of leverage. Doesn’t need to make sense.
ip26 7y ago
A core part of many abusive relationships is the message "No one else cares about you, no one loves you, I'm the only one who will help you". The abuser will socially isolate the victim, cutting off friendships & family. What friends & family remain, the abuser will work to discredit or estrange, all the while telling the victim the abuser is the only person they can rely on. I think you are imagining abuse victims as fully rational actors straining to break free, if only they had somewhere to go or full custody of their child. But a long time victim of this kind of abuse has been taught they are helpless, worthless, and alone. The only thing more frightening than staying, is leaving.
- treeman79 7y ago
  In an abusive relationship. If I try and leave she threatens to call the cops. Uses every emotional trick to make it clear I have no wear to go. Lots of other emotional abuse. Next day she’s bright as can be. Confused as to why any of it bothers me. Kids are very much only reason staying. Took many years to break free of mental chains. Kids almost old enough to see through BS.

derefr 7y ago

An accusation of domestic abuse would be taken far more seriously than an accusation of "being outside without a reason", I would think. Especially if you're a police officer, trained to respond to domestic violence calls, but never really trained about the seriousness of epidemic management.

watwut 7y ago
They are nit taken that seriously absent visible injuries. And statistically cops are more likely to be domestic abusers then general population.
- skrtskrt 7y ago
  Yep, 40% vs 25%: https://kutv.com/news/local/40-of-police-officer-families-experience-domestic-violence-study-says https://kutv.com/news/local/40-of-police-officer-families-ex... https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-violence-nearly-twice-average-rate-2536928.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Police-domestic-viole...
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    Police officer training to be "dominant" and "be in control of all aspects of the situation" can easily intimidate family members too... Source: Friend of mine is a cop. Since he went through the ~2 year training program, he's become unpleasant to anyone he's in a private space with. Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      > Let him have his way, or he'll be very aggressive till he gets it. Good grief. That doesn't exactly sound like friendship.
    - derefr 7y ago
      How the heck do cops get along with each-other in a stressful situation, if their training leads them to all feel the need to individually be in control of the same situation?

SkyBelow 7y ago

But by that logic, all laws by their existence and enforcement enables abusers. Even laws against abuse. Enforce the law against an abuser and send them to jail? Another abuser will use that to scare a victim of the same gender as the abuser jailed.