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This is a very naive take on the world. You'll need at the very least half an acre to feed yourself sustainably, and that's if you're highly optimized. It's al

This is a very naive take on the world. You'll need at the very least half an acre to feed yourself sustainably, and that's if you're highly optimized. It's also backbreaking work, and you won't be able to do much else except subsistence farming. In short, it's not practical for the vast majority of the population. The closest we can probably get to this model is instead CSA memberships, supporting farms right outside the dense urban areas which can leverage economies of scale to feed several hundred people. I mean, sure, grow your spring onions, your herbs, and a tomato plant. It's nice. It keeps you connected to where food comes from. It's a yummy addition to your plate. It won't feed you in an emergency, though.

makomk 7y ago
Note that it's fine to leave the supply of staples like wheat to large farmers with economies of scale, since that's heavily mechanized and doesn't require many workers, plus the workers it does rely on can be fairly effectively distanced. It's mostly the stuff like fresh fruit and vegetables which is the problem. Those are less reliant on economies of scale and more on cheap imported labour.
- Zenst 7y ago
  Exactly, I grew tomatoes in my flat few years back, was so choice picking a ripe tomato on christmas day grown indoors on a window ledge and no additional lighting needed. Sure can't grow it all, but certainly makes a positive dent in my needs.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Yikes, you grew tomatoes indoors? How did you stand the smell?
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Was not an issue at all.
Zenst 7y ago
OK, i'm not saying we all grow all our own food, but certainly a little helps and a step in the right direction and you can bet many will avenue that and what they can in the times ahead now. Certainly growing your own herbs in a flat very sustainable.
emptysands 7y ago
OMG Garden in Auckland is an urban garden that produces 1000NZD per week in commercial produce sales. They think they can get to 1400 per week. Small <500 sqm plot between buildings. They have full time farmer.
- Klinky 7y ago
  Is that 1,000 NZD profit, or revenue? It also looks heavily reliant on volunteer effort, basically free labor.
  - emptysands 7y ago
    Revenue I think. They have a full time farmer. I don't have all the details, but I think it's main focus is education and as a model.
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
Here's an idea, put everyone's half acres together, then use automation to reduce the labour needed, freeing people to do other useful work! We can share the food, and share the labour! This will work as long as some malevolent dick doesn't come along and decide they want more than their fair share ...
- Klinky 7y ago
  It'll be a common area people can share. We'll just need to avoid any sort of tragedy.
  - dwiel 7y ago
    luckily there has been some research on averting such tragedies: https://wle.cgiar.org/content/elinor-ostrom-%E2%80%9Cnon-tragedy-commons%E2%80%9D https://wle.cgiar.org/content/elinor-ostrom-%E2%80%9Cnon-tra...
broahmed 7y ago
You can grow a surprising amount on even 0.1 acres. Here's a video where a family grows 6000 pounds on about 4000 square feet. https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM Granted, they have the whole family pitching in with the labor and it's a full-time job for them.
- pretendscholar 7y ago
  Is there a good resource for a reasonably educated individual on the theory of farming. That is the theory about growing any foodstuff or useful growable product (livestock,plants,edible mushrooms, even houseplants and pets) and selling those products. Managing the economics, top soil, automation, machine repair and maintenance.
  - evgen 7y ago
    Look for Storey's guides for things like basic country skills and small-scale animal husbandry (rabbit, goat, etc.) There is also probably an entire aisle of urban homesteading books to look through at the local bookstore.
- dehrmann 7y ago
  Not many calories in what they're growing, either.
joshvm 7y ago
I think this is also naive. You don't need an acre, nor is it backbreaking labour. The biggest time sink for home gardeners in my experience is watering, which you can solve by timed drip irrigation. Some plants like beans and peas are so easy to grow that they'll take over if you don't manage them. Potatoes are also pretty robust. However, growing year-round is hard. It's relatively easy to feed yourself over the summer/fall if you're dedicated, but maintaining enough to feed your family over the winter is much more difficult and requires planning (and if anything goes wrong you lose the crop). The biggest advantage for me is growing crops which are very expensive in stores and are easily wasted - like bagged salads, tomatoes that taste good, etc. Plus you can pick weird heritage varieties. We get a small veg box once a week and a small plot in our garden and we rarely buy vegetables when we go shopping.
- chewz 7y ago
  > like bagged salads, tomatoes salads, tomatoes are extremly wasteful form of transporting water so the benefit of growing your own is enormous
- groby_b 7y ago
  Well, yes, I was specifically speaking to the self-sustainable part. (And really, growing enough to eat year round? Yeah, it's back breaking. Not when you're 20 or 30, but come back to me when you're in your 50s :) I'm totally in favor of growing the things that you mention - and combined with a CSA, it's the best of both worlds. But I really, really, wouldn't want to grow all the staples myself and be dependent on it.
ndell0 7y ago
This is a mathematically naive comment. Mathematically, plenty of people are physically capable of this such that the problem you describe is likely not a problem They’re emotionally lazy and want to chase shallow dopamine driven experiences and excessive manufacturing of disposable shit to avoid having to deal with reality Do some DMT and grow some food for yourselves. “It’s just chemicals in the brain” is good enough for when it comes to “experience chasing”. All the technology enabled experience is terrible for the environment. Yes that includes our tech jobs of pointless todo app making. We may like to think our political social contracts we were taught about as kids are going to insulate us but we can see how easily those fall down while we’re over here behaving like proper subjects. Get over yourself, westerners. I don’t know what’s worse, the idiot ones or the woke ones who still ignore the reality created by their agency
mycall 7y ago
What is your take on vertical farming [1]? If this was more widespread, we could take large loads off the farming sector and support the promise of grown local benefits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
- nradov 7y ago
  Vertical farming takes just as much labor as horizontal farming and the capital expenses are higher. The economics only work for highly perishable luxury crops, not staples.
prawn 7y ago
To be fair, they did say "a bit more self-sufficient". I have a half-dozen raised garden beds, herbs and fruit trees on a very standard-sized suburban block. I can cook occasional meals that are largely from the garden and definitely supplement staples (protein, pasta/rice from the shop). In recent weeks, I've paid more attention to sowing seeds and looked at adding chickens. With reliably laying chickens, we could do a meal/day at least.

makomk 7y ago

Note that it's fine to leave the supply of staples like wheat to large farmers with economies of scale, since that's heavily mechanized and doesn't require many workers, plus the workers it does rely on can be fairly effectively distanced. It's mostly the stuff like fresh fruit and vegetables which is the problem. Those are less reliant on economies of scale and more on cheap imported labour.

Zenst 7y ago
Exactly, I grew tomatoes in my flat few years back, was so choice picking a ripe tomato on christmas day grown indoors on a window ledge and no additional lighting needed. Sure can't grow it all, but certainly makes a positive dent in my needs.
- GordonS 7y ago
  Yikes, you grew tomatoes indoors? How did you stand the smell?
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Was not an issue at all.

Zenst 7y ago

OK, i'm not saying we all grow all our own food, but certainly a little helps and a step in the right direction and you can bet many will avenue that and what they can in the times ahead now. Certainly growing your own herbs in a flat very sustainable.

emptysands 7y ago

OMG Garden in Auckland is an urban garden that produces 1000NZD per week in commercial produce sales. They think they can get to 1400 per week. Small <500 sqm plot between buildings. They have full time farmer.

Klinky 7y ago
Is that 1,000 NZD profit, or revenue? It also looks heavily reliant on volunteer effort, basically free labor.
- emptysands 7y ago
  Revenue I think. They have a full time farmer. I don't have all the details, but I think it's main focus is education and as a model.

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

Here's an idea, put everyone's half acres together, then use automation to reduce the labour needed, freeing people to do other useful work! We can share the food, and share the labour! This will work as long as some malevolent dick doesn't come along and decide they want more than their fair share ...

Klinky 7y ago
It'll be a common area people can share. We'll just need to avoid any sort of tragedy.
- dwiel 7y ago
  luckily there has been some research on averting such tragedies: https://wle.cgiar.org/content/elinor-ostrom-%E2%80%9Cnon-tragedy-commons%E2%80%9D https://wle.cgiar.org/content/elinor-ostrom-%E2%80%9Cnon-tra...

broahmed 7y ago

You can grow a surprising amount on even 0.1 acres. Here's a video where a family grows 6000 pounds on about 4000 square feet. https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM https://youtu.be/NCmTJkZy0rM Granted, they have the whole family pitching in with the labor and it's a full-time job for them.

pretendscholar 7y ago
Is there a good resource for a reasonably educated individual on the theory of farming. That is the theory about growing any foodstuff or useful growable product (livestock,plants,edible mushrooms, even houseplants and pets) and selling those products. Managing the economics, top soil, automation, machine repair and maintenance.
- evgen 7y ago
  Look for Storey's guides for things like basic country skills and small-scale animal husbandry (rabbit, goat, etc.) There is also probably an entire aisle of urban homesteading books to look through at the local bookstore.
dehrmann 7y ago
Not many calories in what they're growing, either.

joshvm 7y ago

I think this is also naive. You don't need an acre, nor is it backbreaking labour. The biggest time sink for home gardeners in my experience is watering, which you can solve by timed drip irrigation. Some plants like beans and peas are so easy to grow that they'll take over if you don't manage them. Potatoes are also pretty robust. However, growing year-round is hard. It's relatively easy to feed yourself over the summer/fall if you're dedicated, but maintaining enough to feed your family over the winter is much more difficult and requires planning (and if anything goes wrong you lose the crop). The biggest advantage for me is growing crops which are very expensive in stores and are easily wasted - like bagged salads, tomatoes that taste good, etc. Plus you can pick weird heritage varieties. We get a small veg box once a week and a small plot in our garden and we rarely buy vegetables when we go shopping.

chewz 7y ago
> like bagged salads, tomatoes salads, tomatoes are extremly wasteful form of transporting water so the benefit of growing your own is enormous
groby_b 7y ago
Well, yes, I was specifically speaking to the self-sustainable part. (And really, growing enough to eat year round? Yeah, it's back breaking. Not when you're 20 or 30, but come back to me when you're in your 50s :) I'm totally in favor of growing the things that you mention - and combined with a CSA, it's the best of both worlds. But I really, really, wouldn't want to grow all the staples myself and be dependent on it.

ndell0 7y ago

This is a mathematically naive comment. Mathematically, plenty of people are physically capable of this such that the problem you describe is likely not a problem They’re emotionally lazy and want to chase shallow dopamine driven experiences and excessive manufacturing of disposable shit to avoid having to deal with reality Do some DMT and grow some food for yourselves. “It’s just chemicals in the brain” is good enough for when it comes to “experience chasing”. All the technology enabled experience is terrible for the environment. Yes that includes our tech jobs of pointless todo app making. We may like to think our political social contracts we were taught about as kids are going to insulate us but we can see how easily those fall down while we’re over here behaving like proper subjects. Get over yourself, westerners. I don’t know what’s worse, the idiot ones or the woke ones who still ignore the reality created by their agency

mycall 7y ago

What is your take on vertical farming [1]? If this was more widespread, we could take large loads off the farming sector and support the promise of grown local benefits. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming

nradov 7y ago
Vertical farming takes just as much labor as horizontal farming and the capital expenses are higher. The economics only work for highly perishable luxury crops, not staples.

prawn 7y ago

To be fair, they did say "a bit more self-sufficient". I have a half-dozen raised garden beds, herbs and fruit trees on a very standard-sized suburban block. I can cook occasional meals that are largely from the garden and definitely supplement staples (protein, pasta/rice from the shop). In recent weeks, I've paid more attention to sowing seeds and looked at adding chickens. With reliably laying chickens, we could do a meal/day at least.