7 ms·

If we restricted the manufacturing of cars, soon there would be articles about how car rental services are taking cars out of the car market.

burkaman 7y ago
Yes? What's your point?
- lend000 7y ago
  Instead of worrying about how people choose to rent their properties, they should instead look to the source of high rental prices, which is bad zoning laws and insufficient total units. Meanwhile Airbnb creates a level of convenience and affordability that makes travel accessible to the masses. I'm sure the software engineers down-voting wouldn't be significantly affected if Airbnb was forced out of operation. Just another version of NIMBYism.
  - brlewis 7y ago
    I've been summarizing the debate here, and so far yours is the comment that contributes most to the top level: https://en.howtruthful.com/o/airbnb_should_be_regulated_because_of_its_effect_on_rental_housing_supply/5e61ead6b1bab9f609bf93908f6a6aff https://en.howtruthful.com/o/airbnb_should_be_regulated_beca...
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    At least based on the prices I've seen when considering my options, the big potential for savings with airbnb is if you choose to take advantage of the kitchen, so that you're not paying to eat out for every meal. But, if affordability really is your top goal, you'll do even better if you go with a hotel that offers kitchenette suites. In my experience, they typically offer a lower nightly fee than having an airbnb to yourself (especially if you are staying at least a week and don't require someone else to come make your bed for you ever day), and still let you save on meal costs. (Airbnbing a room out of someone's house is even less expensive, but I don't think that style of airbnb rental is really the subject of much controversy.)
  - mannykannot 7y ago
    > Meanwhile Airbnb creates a level of convenience and affordability that makes travel accessible to the masses. Clearly a greater good than, say, having a place to live, no? You have a point with your first paragraph - it would have been a good place to stop. Until the bigger issue is addressed, optimizing for a hypothetical situation is premature.
    - lend000 7y ago
      > optimizing for a hypothetical situation is premature. Hypothetical? We've seen travel numbers increase significantly over the last decade, and Airbnb now claims a large chunk of that. I think it's important point to remind people why Airbnb exists -- it's a great service with positive benefits. I have stayed in far more Airbnb's than hotels over the last few years, saving money and typically getting a better overall experience. > Clearly a greater good than, say, having a place to live, no? This goes back to the first point. Let people build more units. If that doesn't fix the problem, then start evaluating more extreme measures that limit the amount of people that are able to travel to an area at a given time (in the name of making sure people have a place to live.)
      - mannykannot 7y ago
        Well, there's an interesting technique - quoting me in reverse order, thereby breaking up the logical connection of my statements. Put them in the correct order, and your initial question is answered. To be absolutely clear: you have identified a greater good if and only if your proposed solution for making housing more affordable is implemented successfully.
        Dylan16807 7y ago
        > Put them in the correct order, and your initial question is answered. The post would read almost exactly the same if it addressed your points in the opposite order. Saying it would 'answer' the question as if you're the total arbiter of this is just not true. They're not confused about what you mean, they're disagreeing. And it's really not a step one, step two situation anyway. Both parts are important at the same time, in different ways.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    When I was homeless, I sometimes stayed in cheap hotels. I never stayed in an Airbnb. I've seen discussions online where other homeless people also concluded Airbnb was useless and cheap hotels were more accessible for the poorest of the poor Americans. I've also seen articles about how tourism is destroying cities, destroying the environment, etc. Meanwhile, an upside to the current pandemic is a massive drop in pollution so extreme it's visible on satellite imagery. I am reluctant to agree that optimizing for the right of "ordinary people" to pursue jet set lifestyles is really in the best interest of humanity. I'm happy to let people travel. But "Let's ruin the planet for touristy shit and claim it to be some egalitarian ideal to open that path to less rich people so they can join in on that" is not really a value that strikes me as belonging in the wise and idealistic column. Mayhap we can find something better if we put a little effort into it.
    - istorical 7y ago
      Can you explain why motels/hotels were better? In NYC it seems like a roomshare on airbnb in one of the boroughs is way cheaper than any motel or hotel you could find but I could see it being different in cheaper / lower cost of living cities.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        When I looked, they weren't actually cheaper. I never found something cheaper on Airbnb. Also, I had no car. Hotels always had some eateries and the like in walking distance. If an Airbnb is basically in the middle of fuck nowhere with no amenities nearby, it does you no good if you have no car and very limited funds. I stayed a lot in two hotels in Fresno. One had a Chipotle, McDonald's, two restaurants and a 7-11 right on top of it and the bus stop was also practically right on top of it. There was more shopping about a 15 or 20 minute walk away. The other had a Taco Bell practically up against it and more stuff a few minutes walk away even though it was in the worst part of town with the fewest amenities. This also meant it cost less than the other one.
    - DeonPenny 7y ago
      Everything doesn't have to be for some overarching good. It has to be fair. it's not fair for people to have to lose money on property they bought to help the poorest of poor americans. Giving access to middle class americans to travel more is a noble ideal. Not everything that we paint morally right like taking property people bought and forcing them to rent to poorest of poor american is fair to renter and we shouldn't create a unfair system for the renters cause they have rights too.
- djannzjkzxn 7y ago
  The cause of high housing prices are low supply and high demand. Housing supply is growing at a slower rate than demand. There are two ways to solve this: 1) build a ton of housing to catch up with demand 2) shrink your local economy to decrease demand If a lawmaker isn’t working on one of these two options, they do not actually support a platform of low housing prices. Airbnb is only a small slice of housing demand. It’s an ugly slice, which makes the company a convenient punching bag for politicians who want to act like they are trying to make housing affordable. But the economy in high-demand cities will keep growing regardless of whether you kill Airbnb.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Yes and no. I used to be very active on a forum for urban planners. They made a very strong case that a few decades back and in living memory of some older members, small coastal towns in the US were affordable and pleasant and similar to other small towns. Then the practice of owning vacation homes drove up prices out of reach of locals and tourism brought other problems. And this was before Airbnb was a thing and magnified such issues. You need to build more housing and all that. But you also need to say "Housing is primarily for the people who actually live here and the wants and desires of wealthy tourists absolutely doesn't trump that." or basically the entire world lives in a shithole so a tiny fraction of the population can do whatever the fuck and indulge their every whim cuz money. This is not a good thing. Not even for the rich people getting away with it while people say "Eat the rich." There is a long history of the lower classes violently and murderously removing the elites when they do that. I'd like to not "live in interesting times" that include violent revolution. Covid19 is enough fun for me, thanks. I'm a boring fuddy duddy like that. Party pooper. Don't drink. Etc
    - im3w1l 7y ago
      Isn't it more fair that everyone gets a chance to spend some time on the coast than that a few people who hoarded all the property there before we were even born get to have it to themselves?
      - 7y ago
lykr0n 7y ago
Ok? Doesn't make it right. And your example is incorrect. You can buy or lease a car just as you can with a house/apartment.
sk5t 7y ago
Cars are not supply-limited.
- jdminhbg 7y ago
  That's the point.
secondbreakfast 7y ago
Yes I like that visualization. One consequence of Uber is more cars on the road. If only one consequence of Airbnb could be YIMBY...
- notRobot 7y ago
  > One consequence of Uber is more cars on the road. How does this work out? I know so many people who just take cabs now and haven't purchased a car in a long time because of how easy Uber has made cabs and ride-sharing. Surely this means a lesser number of cars on the road?
  - leighfuu 7y ago
    zero experience in this, so this might not be true. I read that due to the way most cities control parking Uber drivers often end up driving around waiting for the next fare. Increasing cars on the road + pollution. Although you could argue there are technically less cars, it feels like there are more.
  - jbc1 7y ago
    I don't know if its enough to offset the scenario you're familiar with but there's 1. people moving from other forms of transport to cars thanks to the convenience of uber and 2. journeys happening that otherwise would not have happened.
gamblor956 7y ago
Car rental companies purchase large numbers of cars each year (look up "fleet cars"). They are generally automakers' biggest, best, and most reliable customers. If you restricted car rental services from buying cars, you might very well cause the collapse of the automobile industry. In contrast, killing AirBnB does not negatively effect the housing market, because people still need places to live. AirBnB generally increases the cost of housing in every housing market in which it operates because it reduces the number of housing units available. (Example: once LA and Santa Monica cracked down on AirBnB and began regulating short-term pseudo-hotel stays, rents plateaued and began dropping, benefiting thousands of people in the LA area. The only people harmed were the investors who bought multiple residential properties and illegally converted them to unregistered hotels.)
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- leereeves 7y ago
  Why kill Airbnb instead of simply building more housing? Cities should allow enough housing to meet demand for both short term and long term rentals.
  - stevenicr 7y ago
    I my similarly affected local area it's many factors that are prevented new housing that is needed / being taken out by investors around the globe buying chunks of the market for short term rentals and others who are slated to move here it seems. All the builders are busy. Getting construction help around here is a crazy process these days (referring to the year BCP / before covid pandemonium) - builders that have the ability to build are generally focused on building more expensive houses to get more money (not average homes that were built long ago). the ones that have the money (from whatever sources) to build the minimum code skinny homes that do well for maximizing cost for arbnbs seem to be gobbling up any and all possible property that fits in the zoning places that these can squeeze into - limiting the market for others who want to build their own (who already live here) The part of town I currently live in, the neighbor groups are NIMBY NIMBY - a recent meeting I sat in where a local developer was exploring putting in a dozen townhomes / condos into a larger development with single family homes - everyone there just wanting to complain about the effects of other development in the area. The price of land is going up, and the cost to develop the land. Building affordable is not as easy as it was some time ago. Some of council is telling citizens to downzone property en mass in order to prevent more affordable options from popping up in their neighborhoods. I heard our last council meeting they attempted a county-wide zone change. It's become clear to me that some of these council folks really are 'our neighborhood character, the children!' type people.. however it seems that many of them are spouting similar types of scare mongering things while really just propping up the value of all the Marriot properties in the city (by trying to limit the airbnb and similar). It's been an interesting show to watch. I don't think supply and demand is going to turn all these, now mostly empty, hotel properties back into affordable housing for the locals. They will just sit there and maybe be traded as distressed properties and be rebranded as some other brand new basic like the self storage places. At least that's how I see it around here in a nutshell - there are many other interesting dynamics going on. Quite the complex play to watch actually, with characters from all over vying to push norms wherever they can get away with it - while the average families try to figure out where they can afford to live. The things the surrounding counties are doing to prevent the people from here moving there is also another interesting set of things to watch with wonder.

burkaman 7y ago

Yes? What's your point?

lend000 7y ago
Instead of worrying about how people choose to rent their properties, they should instead look to the source of high rental prices, which is bad zoning laws and insufficient total units. Meanwhile Airbnb creates a level of convenience and affordability that makes travel accessible to the masses. I'm sure the software engineers down-voting wouldn't be significantly affected if Airbnb was forced out of operation. Just another version of NIMBYism.
- brlewis 7y ago
  I've been summarizing the debate here, and so far yours is the comment that contributes most to the top level: https://en.howtruthful.com/o/airbnb_should_be_regulated_because_of_its_effect_on_rental_housing_supply/5e61ead6b1bab9f609bf93908f6a6aff https://en.howtruthful.com/o/airbnb_should_be_regulated_beca...
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  At least based on the prices I've seen when considering my options, the big potential for savings with airbnb is if you choose to take advantage of the kitchen, so that you're not paying to eat out for every meal. But, if affordability really is your top goal, you'll do even better if you go with a hotel that offers kitchenette suites. In my experience, they typically offer a lower nightly fee than having an airbnb to yourself (especially if you are staying at least a week and don't require someone else to come make your bed for you ever day), and still let you save on meal costs. (Airbnbing a room out of someone's house is even less expensive, but I don't think that style of airbnb rental is really the subject of much controversy.)
- mannykannot 7y ago
  > Meanwhile Airbnb creates a level of convenience and affordability that makes travel accessible to the masses. Clearly a greater good than, say, having a place to live, no? You have a point with your first paragraph - it would have been a good place to stop. Until the bigger issue is addressed, optimizing for a hypothetical situation is premature.
  - lend000 7y ago
    > optimizing for a hypothetical situation is premature. Hypothetical? We've seen travel numbers increase significantly over the last decade, and Airbnb now claims a large chunk of that. I think it's important point to remind people why Airbnb exists -- it's a great service with positive benefits. I have stayed in far more Airbnb's than hotels over the last few years, saving money and typically getting a better overall experience. > Clearly a greater good than, say, having a place to live, no? This goes back to the first point. Let people build more units. If that doesn't fix the problem, then start evaluating more extreme measures that limit the amount of people that are able to travel to an area at a given time (in the name of making sure people have a place to live.)
    - mannykannot 7y ago
      Well, there's an interesting technique - quoting me in reverse order, thereby breaking up the logical connection of my statements. Put them in the correct order, and your initial question is answered. To be absolutely clear: you have identified a greater good if and only if your proposed solution for making housing more affordable is implemented successfully.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        > Put them in the correct order, and your initial question is answered. The post would read almost exactly the same if it addressed your points in the opposite order. Saying it would 'answer' the question as if you're the total arbiter of this is just not true. They're not confused about what you mean, they're disagreeing. And it's really not a step one, step two situation anyway. Both parts are important at the same time, in different ways.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  When I was homeless, I sometimes stayed in cheap hotels. I never stayed in an Airbnb. I've seen discussions online where other homeless people also concluded Airbnb was useless and cheap hotels were more accessible for the poorest of the poor Americans. I've also seen articles about how tourism is destroying cities, destroying the environment, etc. Meanwhile, an upside to the current pandemic is a massive drop in pollution so extreme it's visible on satellite imagery. I am reluctant to agree that optimizing for the right of "ordinary people" to pursue jet set lifestyles is really in the best interest of humanity. I'm happy to let people travel. But "Let's ruin the planet for touristy shit and claim it to be some egalitarian ideal to open that path to less rich people so they can join in on that" is not really a value that strikes me as belonging in the wise and idealistic column. Mayhap we can find something better if we put a little effort into it.
  - istorical 7y ago
    Can you explain why motels/hotels were better? In NYC it seems like a roomshare on airbnb in one of the boroughs is way cheaper than any motel or hotel you could find but I could see it being different in cheaper / lower cost of living cities.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      When I looked, they weren't actually cheaper. I never found something cheaper on Airbnb. Also, I had no car. Hotels always had some eateries and the like in walking distance. If an Airbnb is basically in the middle of fuck nowhere with no amenities nearby, it does you no good if you have no car and very limited funds. I stayed a lot in two hotels in Fresno. One had a Chipotle, McDonald's, two restaurants and a 7-11 right on top of it and the bus stop was also practically right on top of it. There was more shopping about a 15 or 20 minute walk away. The other had a Taco Bell practically up against it and more stuff a few minutes walk away even though it was in the worst part of town with the fewest amenities. This also meant it cost less than the other one.
  - DeonPenny 7y ago
    Everything doesn't have to be for some overarching good. It has to be fair. it's not fair for people to have to lose money on property they bought to help the poorest of poor americans. Giving access to middle class americans to travel more is a noble ideal. Not everything that we paint morally right like taking property people bought and forcing them to rent to poorest of poor american is fair to renter and we shouldn't create a unfair system for the renters cause they have rights too.
djannzjkzxn 7y ago
The cause of high housing prices are low supply and high demand. Housing supply is growing at a slower rate than demand. There are two ways to solve this: 1) build a ton of housing to catch up with demand 2) shrink your local economy to decrease demand If a lawmaker isn’t working on one of these two options, they do not actually support a platform of low housing prices. Airbnb is only a small slice of housing demand. It’s an ugly slice, which makes the company a convenient punching bag for politicians who want to act like they are trying to make housing affordable. But the economy in high-demand cities will keep growing regardless of whether you kill Airbnb.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Yes and no. I used to be very active on a forum for urban planners. They made a very strong case that a few decades back and in living memory of some older members, small coastal towns in the US were affordable and pleasant and similar to other small towns. Then the practice of owning vacation homes drove up prices out of reach of locals and tourism brought other problems. And this was before Airbnb was a thing and magnified such issues. You need to build more housing and all that. But you also need to say "Housing is primarily for the people who actually live here and the wants and desires of wealthy tourists absolutely doesn't trump that." or basically the entire world lives in a shithole so a tiny fraction of the population can do whatever the fuck and indulge their every whim cuz money. This is not a good thing. Not even for the rich people getting away with it while people say "Eat the rich." There is a long history of the lower classes violently and murderously removing the elites when they do that. I'd like to not "live in interesting times" that include violent revolution. Covid19 is enough fun for me, thanks. I'm a boring fuddy duddy like that. Party pooper. Don't drink. Etc
  - im3w1l 7y ago
    Isn't it more fair that everyone gets a chance to spend some time on the coast than that a few people who hoarded all the property there before we were even born get to have it to themselves?
    - 7y ago

lykr0n 7y ago

Ok? Doesn't make it right. And your example is incorrect. You can buy or lease a car just as you can with a house/apartment.

sk5t 7y ago

Cars are not supply-limited.

jdminhbg 7y ago
That's the point.

secondbreakfast 7y ago

Yes I like that visualization. One consequence of Uber is more cars on the road. If only one consequence of Airbnb could be YIMBY...

notRobot 7y ago
> One consequence of Uber is more cars on the road. How does this work out? I know so many people who just take cabs now and haven't purchased a car in a long time because of how easy Uber has made cabs and ride-sharing. Surely this means a lesser number of cars on the road?
- leighfuu 7y ago
  zero experience in this, so this might not be true. I read that due to the way most cities control parking Uber drivers often end up driving around waiting for the next fare. Increasing cars on the road + pollution. Although you could argue there are technically less cars, it feels like there are more.
- jbc1 7y ago
  I don't know if its enough to offset the scenario you're familiar with but there's 1. people moving from other forms of transport to cars thanks to the convenience of uber and 2. journeys happening that otherwise would not have happened.

gamblor956 7y ago

Car rental companies purchase large numbers of cars each year (look up "fleet cars"). They are generally automakers' biggest, best, and most reliable customers. If you restricted car rental services from buying cars, you might very well cause the collapse of the automobile industry. In contrast, killing AirBnB does not negatively effect the housing market, because people still need places to live. AirBnB generally increases the cost of housing in every housing market in which it operates because it reduces the number of housing units available. (Example: once LA and Santa Monica cracked down on AirBnB and began regulating short-term pseudo-hotel stays, rents plateaued and began dropping, benefiting thousands of people in the LA area. The only people harmed were the investors who bought multiple residential properties and illegally converted them to unregistered hotels.)

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 7y ago
Why kill Airbnb instead of simply building more housing? Cities should allow enough housing to meet demand for both short term and long term rentals.
- stevenicr 7y ago
  I my similarly affected local area it's many factors that are prevented new housing that is needed / being taken out by investors around the globe buying chunks of the market for short term rentals and others who are slated to move here it seems. All the builders are busy. Getting construction help around here is a crazy process these days (referring to the year BCP / before covid pandemonium) - builders that have the ability to build are generally focused on building more expensive houses to get more money (not average homes that were built long ago). the ones that have the money (from whatever sources) to build the minimum code skinny homes that do well for maximizing cost for arbnbs seem to be gobbling up any and all possible property that fits in the zoning places that these can squeeze into - limiting the market for others who want to build their own (who already live here) The part of town I currently live in, the neighbor groups are NIMBY NIMBY - a recent meeting I sat in where a local developer was exploring putting in a dozen townhomes / condos into a larger development with single family homes - everyone there just wanting to complain about the effects of other development in the area. The price of land is going up, and the cost to develop the land. Building affordable is not as easy as it was some time ago. Some of council is telling citizens to downzone property en mass in order to prevent more affordable options from popping up in their neighborhoods. I heard our last council meeting they attempted a county-wide zone change. It's become clear to me that some of these council folks really are 'our neighborhood character, the children!' type people.. however it seems that many of them are spouting similar types of scare mongering things while really just propping up the value of all the Marriot properties in the city (by trying to limit the airbnb and similar). It's been an interesting show to watch. I don't think supply and demand is going to turn all these, now mostly empty, hotel properties back into affordable housing for the locals. They will just sit there and maybe be traded as distressed properties and be rebranded as some other brand new basic like the self storage places. At least that's how I see it around here in a nutshell - there are many other interesting dynamics going on. Quite the complex play to watch actually, with characters from all over vying to push norms wherever they can get away with it - while the average families try to figure out where they can afford to live. The things the surrounding counties are doing to prevent the people from here moving there is also another interesting set of things to watch with wonder.