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Doctors Say Shortage of Protective Gear Is Dire

103 points by Reedx 7y ago

jdkee 7y ago
The ER docs at my wife’s hospital this morning were wearing pediatric masks with Disney characters emblazoned on them. And this is in a major suburban hospital.
aaron695 7y ago
If this article was dated January I might care. Everyone in the hospitals from nurses to management knew exactly what is coming but did nothing. And nothing has even happened yet, wait till the virus actually arrives in a few weeks. Did any hospital plan or ask for help properly? Did any nurses union raise the issue? Anyway they have numerous studies from Africa where they can't afford equipment, rather than the lack of planning by people on half a million a year, to look at.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  You will care if you need treatment but the hospitals are understaffed because all the healthcare workers are sick.
- viraptor 7y ago
  Nurses and other staff are not there to make decisions based on firsthand geopolitical and epidemiology research. They have enough day-to-day work to do. This information should be provided to hospitals and other healthcare workers from higher up. This level of resource use / need may be even above what the local management should analyse, because ideally there would be regional stock available to shift to the clinics/hospitals affected by most cases.
  - skat20phys 7y ago
    I agree with you regarding client-facing staff, and think the parent post has misplaced lack of concern. However, I also think the post makes an important underlying point about hospital administration generally and "where their heads were at." Increasingly a lot of hospital administration is very profit-focused. Not all but maybe most; where it's not, it's increasing, and where it's not supposed to be it often is, but hidden. What this means is that the focus of hospital administration is often not on epidemiology and public health, even though it should be. It should include that more. It's focused more on squeezing out the maximum from each provider in terms of billable hours and patient contacts. When you're focused on stuff like that, you're not thinking about public health. And so we have the consequence of that now. I don't think this is the only problem -- there's also government overregulation, rent-seeking provider monopolies that artificially restrict supply of services, and lack of coverage for patients -- but it's part of it. In general, at an abstract level, healthcare in the US has become very focused on protecting the interests of the established system, and less so on the interests of citizens and patients. It's a house of cards with several problems at once, getting hit by the perfect storm.
ackbar03 7y ago
>“The federal government’s not supposed to be out there buying vast amounts of items and then shipping,” Mr. Trump said. “You know, we’re not a shipping clerk.” Hey, the guys not wrong, he's not a shipping clerk
- mirimir 7y ago
  They do that for weapons, ammunition, food, clothing, etc, etc, etc.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The interstates, rail networks, oh and THE USPS, which makes the federal government, literally a shipping clerk.
diabeetusman 7y ago
My sister's an ER doc in Baltimore and they're getting one mask per 12-hour shift. That quantity doesn't protect them from anything or their patients
- mjevans 7y ago
  It protects them from mass-panic...
- fma 7y ago
  My understanding is they are good for 4 hours. When the masks are saturated they are not effective. Maybe it's better to have 2 and rotate them out. I saw someone else post this on HN... Worth a look. http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83 http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83
  - diabeetusman 7y ago
    That's a valid idea, but it's unfortunately not something she's in control of. All the PPE protocols are coming from people higher than her. They're also not getting eye protection at all so she's taken to wearing her glasses instead of contacts. Not as good as actual eye protection, but it's better than absolutely nothing. In short, they don't have what they need.
neonate 7y ago
https://archive.md/8EcPa https://archive.md/8EcPa
- mjevans 7y ago
  Thank you
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
outlace 7y ago
There is reason to believe that the hospital mask shortage is due in no small part to employee (and patient/family) theft of masks and not necessarily due to dramatically increased need at hospitals (at least not yet). I say this as a resident physician at an urban hospital in the US. We're now severely low on N95 masks and moderately low on surgical masks but we have only had less than a dozen confirmed covid-19 cases (granted about 100 tested negative cases) so there's no way even 100 additional patients requiring masks suddenly plummeted our stockpiles of masks. Indeed, hospital administration noticed and sent out a mass email imploring employees to return unused masks in personal possession.
- Bograff 7y ago
  We should have stockpiles for just this sort of situation. They were either inadequately supplied or are sitting on resources. https://www.phe.gov/about/sns/Pages/default.aspx https://www.phe.gov/about/sns/Pages/default.aspx
- rhegart 7y ago
  This. There are barely any covid 19 patients yet hospitals are low on masks due to panic. Beds are still open and ventilators contrary to media claims are not currently on a shortage.
  - jumelles 7y ago
    Yet.
  - diabeetusman 7y ago
    There are also not nearly as many tests being run as there are patients with suspect symptoms. Yes, the number of confirmed COVID-19 patients may be low, but that doesn't mean that the number of people with the disease is low. According to the CDC[1], you can contact your healthcare provider for the possibility of a test if (and only if) you are in close contact with someone with the disease or if you're in a community where there's ongoing spread. That's still a very limited subset of people who might have the disease. There's very limited insight into who does or does not have the disease in the US. [1]https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/testing.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/t...
jeremydw 7y ago
I keep seeing articles like this pop up. During one of the first coronavirus press conferences, the White House invited CEOs from Walmart, Target, CVS, etc. – presumably to show strength of the private sector. On the flip side, why can't we enlist money and resources from the private sector to quickly fix some of these supply issues? For example: - Convert car factories to produce masks and ventilators. - Convert construction companies to build makeshift hospitals. (Or use hotels.) - Use tech companies to improve national information access with regards to CV19 testing and track and help patients using their software on their phones to help with contact tracing. I realize that it's not as simple as pressing a button and instantly converting a factory that makes Teslas into one that makes masks. I also realize there are potential privacy concerns with nationalized information tracking. But, we're about to enter an unprecedented public health crisis. We have resources that can lessen the impact if we just align and get behind this direction. I can't help but think we could do more and not just wait for the shortage to happen, and for the curve to spike. We stockpile enough nukes to basically destroy the whole Earth (exaggeration but you get the idea), but we can't stockpile some ventilators and face masks in case of a pandemic? You can't fight a pandemic with diplomacy. At least you can fight a foreign enemy with that.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  You need the tools, but you don't have them. So you need the tools that make the tools. But you don't have those either. So you have two layers of tools you need to make from basic tools. Then you need supply chains for all the inputs. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand. But I do suspect that if we had started in January something could have been done.
- grej 7y ago
  Facemasks and other PPE are perishable. Also, many were used in 2009, and the stocks have not substantially replenished in more than a decade.
  - jeremydw 7y ago
    I understand. But, it's about keeping a reserve. On one hand, it's wasteful. On the other hand, a maintained reserve can save lives. This is a problem that can be solved with money. Planet Money did a great episode recently on how the US government is currently paying for a year-round supply of chicken eggs to produce vaccine for a pandemic flu. (https://www.npr.org/transcripts/812943907 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/812943907). I understand this situation is different from eggs, as an egg not used for a vaccine can be converted to feed, but in the end it's all about money. It's like an insurance policy. I pay for auto insurance but don't use it until I really need it.
elihu 7y ago
I wonder what if there's a straightforward way to make facemasks by hand, or with tools that are generally available? I'm imagining cutting apart a furnace filter and wrapping the fabric around a wire frame, or something like that. If someone were to develop a process that was simple and reliably repeatable and produced good quality effective masks, that could be a way for otherwise un-busy people to keep hospital staff supplied. One issue I suppose is whether there are upstream bottlenecks, like not being able to get a reliable supply of the right kinds of filter material.
- j-c-hewitt 7y ago
  There are a lot of hospitals directing employees to sew them by hand. There is a simple and reliably repeatable method: having a factory. Not sure what is needed but there are lots of suppliers on Alibaba for this type of item. There are lots of rumors about export controls in China, denials of the same from Chinese officials, and rumors of seizure by US customs. Never imported medical stuff but anecdotally many US sellers are being solicited by Chinese factories looking to sell masks and other PPE into the US.
- sp332 7y ago
  It's not that easy to make N95 masks. Other kinds of masks are better than nothing but if you're in close proximity for hours a day, probably not good enough.
quietthrow 7y ago
Again severe failure on the govt’s part. Their inaction in when it was needed the most led to all these circumstances that makes it ripe for situations like these. As the number of infections spread and economic situation get worse these kind of things will get really really bad. Once the second and third order effects kick in it’s going to be a catastrophe. And our leaders answer to all of this is to give $1200 checks to people. All they care is about the economy as it gives them higher odds for their reelection. I don’t understand how such incompetence can be tolerated and why they are not fired and instead have to wait till next election.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  > Again severe failure on the govt’s part. If you live in a democracy, then you are part of the government. You can't just blame other people for this.
  - quietthrow 7y ago
    Agree. Active citizenry is the cornerstone of democracy. That’s why we have elected officials. But when they are unfit for the job and it doesn’t mean you blindly follow them to the abyss. There is something to be said for course correction and not waiting for the next cycle to make changes while millions of people get impacted. There is no doubt that people will needlessly die due to our abject failure to provide these test kits in a timely manner. Maintaining status quo / Dealing with things just for sake of tradition dosnt make sense in 2020. By that logic we should still not have women’s rights and continue on slavery because that’s the way it had been for so long? The leaders can do whatever they want and we have to wait for the next cycle beastie that’s the way things have always been?
  - baddox 7y ago
    That’s ridiculous. An average citizen cannot vote more medical supplies into existence no matter how hard they vote.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
lettergram 7y ago
The crazy thing to me is the government or hospitals haven’t issued a massive n95 drive to obtain more. I have a few left over from a house project I did a while back. Kept one for myself, but happy to donate the other 4 I have. I’m sure if the request was actually made people would donate. Is it enough? No idea, but construction workers, painters, etc don’t need them right now. People want to do something, let them.
- viraptor 7y ago
  Just curious why are you waiting for a request? Why not call the nearest hospital and say "I've got 4 n95 masks, do you want them?" There is a problem with issuing a request - not everyone will know about it. As you mentioned, you think there was no request. But there were multiple: here's one example https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2020/hospitals-are-running-out-of-masks-industrial-masks-have-been-okd-for-use-are-local-construction-sites-donating-them/ https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2020/hospitals-are...
- theslurmmustflo 7y ago
  You know you basically have to toss them after a single use if you want them to be effective, right?
m3nu 7y ago
I do China sourcing and have decent access to 3-ply surgical masks and limited access to N95 masks. It's really hard to sell either of those to government bodies, even near cost. Already talked to the Red Cross, wholesale pharmacies and different ministries. They generally insist on payment on delivery, which we can't do for larger orders, as factories sell to whoever has the cash at the factory gate. Some also want EU certifications (FFP2), while many factories in China only have the local Chinese standard (KN95). And some refuse to pay to a company outside Europa, while wanting to buy stuff from China. So while I'd love to ship some of this stuff to Europe, currently people there are still blocking themselves. Hoping to work something out soon.
- immad 7y ago
  Can you email me (email in profile) and I can connect you to some people in the US trying to solve this.
  - m3nu 7y ago
    Thanks! Sent some details.
  - keenmaster 7y ago
    Why don't they just charge a higher price to buyers who don't pay cash now? I understand there is a lot of demand, but this does not compute with me. My spidey senses would be going off.
    - m3nu 7y ago
      This works for private buyers, but these gov agencies have a regulation that doesn't allow them to pay in advance ever. The price isn't the issue. So they can only buy from really big firms, who don't have stock right now and aren't flexible.
      - fingerlocks 7y ago
        How do I learn more about this regulation?
systemvoltage 7y ago
Let this be a lesson to learn for western democracies to not put all of their eggs in one basket. Diversification, localization and strategic globalization of the supply chain should be at the forefront of the issues to be discussed, ratified and acted upon after this pandemic is over. When one country manufactures 90% of world's goods (not accurate, to make a point), while the top 1% gets their bonuses for increasing profit margins, this is what we have. We've lost skills, we've lost our stance to manufacture things in our own homeland. It is depressing, deeply worrying and feels like the entire world has been gutted out by one country. Just to make it clear - think about this scenario - what would happen if one country made the food for the rest of the world? (Thankfully, we don't, but it can happen). What about pharmaceuticals? (Unfortunately, 90% of the world's generic drugs are made in Asia, primarily in India who in turn depends on China) [1]. [1] China is the world's largest raw materials exporter for Drugs: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-opens-door-to-foreign-drugs-for-a-discount-1543320003?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-opens-door-to-foreign-dru... Edit: I just realized that some of the startup and entrepreneurs around the world are on this forum, if you'd like to get into manufacturing, want to learn about more abstract concepts of manufacturing, I implore you to checkout: Manufacturing Planning and Control for Supply Chain Management reference book - https://books.google.com/books/about/Manufacturing_Planning_and_Control_for_S.html?id=TkGRswEACAAJ https://books.google.com/books/about/Manufacturing_Planning_... This book is absolute gold. Manufacturing is like playing this game Factorio (google it) but in real life. It is an exciting field ripe for innovation, many very hard problems and unlimited potential (and a lot of risk as well).
- oezi 7y ago
  But can this be done without abandoning capitalism as a primary driving economic model? It would require a reversal in economic steering (tariffs, government intervention, etc) of enormous scale. The only thing that has come to matter is the hunt to squeeze every penny, we have forgotten to do anything else.
  - wbl 7y ago
    Tariffs result in domestic industries that can't compete. Germany has an export oriented manufacturing sector that employs lots of people and the US doesn't not because of Chins but because of US management.
innagadadavida 7y ago
Are there any reusable masks that are effective? It seems like throwing away these masks after a few hours of usage is partly to blame for the shortage. Generally damp materials are good at blocking particles better than dry ones. So is there any possibility of reusing the mask after washing in soap water?
joe_the_user 7y ago
The inability to just requisition, demand resource, mobilize people and so-forth, is breathtaking here. The start of WWII saw the quick re-purposing of industries for the war effort. Today, it seems an inability to see what's necessary and get it to people is disturbing. The situation is effectively a war and one that's being fought very quickly. I could brainstorm and mention the "fast fashion" is renown for creating conventional clothing to a variety of specifications, quickly. It seems like that talent could be harnessed for various kinds of safety equipment. Just an example, I'm sure there are a hundred similar things conceivable but despite the looming collapse of conventional procedures, somehow all bureaucratic hurdles remain in place.
- pbourke 7y ago
  > The inability to just requisition, demand resource, mobilize people and so-forth, is breathtaking here. A once-in-a-century threat arrived just as American leadership has fallen further than anyone thought possible in the postwar "Pax Americana" era. Just 4 years ago, this was unthinkable. Trump would be bad, but we'd have infrastructure spending and regulation cuts, at least. The adults would ultimately be in charge, as always. Right? We are witnessing the end of the American century. I hate to be so dire, so grim at a time when it's the last thing anyone needs. I'm sorry.
- patrec 7y ago
  I still can't believe that no western country is even capable of creating freaking face masks at scale (and no, doesn't need to be N95).
zachguo 7y ago
Car factories can be converted to produce masks. An electric car manufacturer in China, BYD, became the biggest mask maker in 3 weeks. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-13/buffett-backed-byd-says-it-s-now-the-biggest-maker-of-face-masks?srnd=technology-vp https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-13/buffett-b...
eigenvalue 7y ago
Chinese n95 masks are available very cheaply on Ali-Express from a variety of sellers who can ship by airmail. I don’t see why doctors/nurses shouldn’t order them personally if they can’t get them from work. For example: US $10.09 20％ Off | 10PCS Disposable KN95 Mask FFP2 Protective Mask Safety Masks 99％ Filtration for Dust Particulate Pollution N95 Protection https://a.aliexpress.com/_dSIOgZ3 https://a.aliexpress.com/_dSIOgZ3
toohotatopic 7y ago
What does it take to build those masks from scratch? We are at roughly 1 out of 100.000 being infected. Until 60% have developed immunity, there is still a long way to go where almost everybody on earth will want to own masks. The need of the hospitals is just the tip of the iceberg. Is it possible to source the machines and materials now to be ready for production when the wave hits really hard?
uxcolumbo 7y ago
Maybe this DIY approach to masks can help in the interim - better than no mask at all? http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/practice/homemade-personal-protective-equipment http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/practice/homemade-personal-protect...

103 points by Reedx 7y ago

The ER docs at my wife’s hospital this morning were wearing pediatric masks with Disney characters emblazoned on them. And this is in a major suburban hospital.

aaron695 7y ago

If this article was dated January I might care. Everyone in the hospitals from nurses to management knew exactly what is coming but did nothing. And nothing has even happened yet, wait till the virus actually arrives in a few weeks. Did any hospital plan or ask for help properly? Did any nurses union raise the issue? Anyway they have numerous studies from Africa where they can't afford equipment, rather than the lack of planning by people on half a million a year, to look at.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
You will care if you need treatment but the hospitals are understaffed because all the healthcare workers are sick.
viraptor 7y ago
Nurses and other staff are not there to make decisions based on firsthand geopolitical and epidemiology research. They have enough day-to-day work to do. This information should be provided to hospitals and other healthcare workers from higher up. This level of resource use / need may be even above what the local management should analyse, because ideally there would be regional stock available to shift to the clinics/hospitals affected by most cases.
- skat20phys 7y ago
  I agree with you regarding client-facing staff, and think the parent post has misplaced lack of concern. However, I also think the post makes an important underlying point about hospital administration generally and "where their heads were at." Increasingly a lot of hospital administration is very profit-focused. Not all but maybe most; where it's not, it's increasing, and where it's not supposed to be it often is, but hidden. What this means is that the focus of hospital administration is often not on epidemiology and public health, even though it should be. It should include that more. It's focused more on squeezing out the maximum from each provider in terms of billable hours and patient contacts. When you're focused on stuff like that, you're not thinking about public health. And so we have the consequence of that now. I don't think this is the only problem -- there's also government overregulation, rent-seeking provider monopolies that artificially restrict supply of services, and lack of coverage for patients -- but it's part of it. In general, at an abstract level, healthcare in the US has become very focused on protecting the interests of the established system, and less so on the interests of citizens and patients. It's a house of cards with several problems at once, getting hit by the perfect storm.

ackbar03 7y ago

>“The federal government’s not supposed to be out there buying vast amounts of items and then shipping,” Mr. Trump said. “You know, we’re not a shipping clerk.” Hey, the guys not wrong, he's not a shipping clerk

mirimir 7y ago
They do that for weapons, ammunition, food, clothing, etc, etc, etc.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  The interstates, rail networks, oh and THE USPS, which makes the federal government, literally a shipping clerk.

diabeetusman 7y ago

My sister's an ER doc in Baltimore and they're getting one mask per 12-hour shift. That quantity doesn't protect them from anything or their patients

mjevans 7y ago
It protects them from mass-panic...
fma 7y ago
My understanding is they are good for 4 hours. When the masks are saturated they are not effective. Maybe it's better to have 2 and rotate them out. I saw someone else post this on HN... Worth a look. http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83 http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83
- diabeetusman 7y ago
  That's a valid idea, but it's unfortunately not something she's in control of. All the PPE protocols are coming from people higher than her. They're also not getting eye protection at all so she's taken to wearing her glasses instead of contacts. Not as good as actual eye protection, but it's better than absolutely nothing. In short, they don't have what they need.

neonate 7y ago

https://archive.md/8EcPa https://archive.md/8EcPa

mjevans 7y ago
Thank you

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

outlace 7y ago

There is reason to believe that the hospital mask shortage is due in no small part to employee (and patient/family) theft of masks and not necessarily due to dramatically increased need at hospitals (at least not yet). I say this as a resident physician at an urban hospital in the US. We're now severely low on N95 masks and moderately low on surgical masks but we have only had less than a dozen confirmed covid-19 cases (granted about 100 tested negative cases) so there's no way even 100 additional patients requiring masks suddenly plummeted our stockpiles of masks. Indeed, hospital administration noticed and sent out a mass email imploring employees to return unused masks in personal possession.

Bograff 7y ago
We should have stockpiles for just this sort of situation. They were either inadequately supplied or are sitting on resources. https://www.phe.gov/about/sns/Pages/default.aspx https://www.phe.gov/about/sns/Pages/default.aspx
rhegart 7y ago
This. There are barely any covid 19 patients yet hospitals are low on masks due to panic. Beds are still open and ventilators contrary to media claims are not currently on a shortage.
- jumelles 7y ago
  Yet.
- diabeetusman 7y ago
  There are also not nearly as many tests being run as there are patients with suspect symptoms. Yes, the number of confirmed COVID-19 patients may be low, but that doesn't mean that the number of people with the disease is low. According to the CDC[1], you can contact your healthcare provider for the possibility of a test if (and only if) you are in close contact with someone with the disease or if you're in a community where there's ongoing spread. That's still a very limited subset of people who might have the disease. There's very limited insight into who does or does not have the disease in the US. [1]https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/testing.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/t...

jeremydw 7y ago

I keep seeing articles like this pop up. During one of the first coronavirus press conferences, the White House invited CEOs from Walmart, Target, CVS, etc. – presumably to show strength of the private sector. On the flip side, why can't we enlist money and resources from the private sector to quickly fix some of these supply issues? For example: - Convert car factories to produce masks and ventilators. - Convert construction companies to build makeshift hospitals. (Or use hotels.) - Use tech companies to improve national information access with regards to CV19 testing and track and help patients using their software on their phones to help with contact tracing. I realize that it's not as simple as pressing a button and instantly converting a factory that makes Teslas into one that makes masks. I also realize there are potential privacy concerns with nationalized information tracking. But, we're about to enter an unprecedented public health crisis. We have resources that can lessen the impact if we just align and get behind this direction. I can't help but think we could do more and not just wait for the shortage to happen, and for the curve to spike. We stockpile enough nukes to basically destroy the whole Earth (exaggeration but you get the idea), but we can't stockpile some ventilators and face masks in case of a pandemic? You can't fight a pandemic with diplomacy. At least you can fight a foreign enemy with that.

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
You need the tools, but you don't have them. So you need the tools that make the tools. But you don't have those either. So you have two layers of tools you need to make from basic tools. Then you need supply chains for all the inputs. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand. But I do suspect that if we had started in January something could have been done.
grej 7y ago
Facemasks and other PPE are perishable. Also, many were used in 2009, and the stocks have not substantially replenished in more than a decade.
- jeremydw 7y ago
  I understand. But, it's about keeping a reserve. On one hand, it's wasteful. On the other hand, a maintained reserve can save lives. This is a problem that can be solved with money. Planet Money did a great episode recently on how the US government is currently paying for a year-round supply of chicken eggs to produce vaccine for a pandemic flu. (https://www.npr.org/transcripts/812943907 https://www.npr.org/transcripts/812943907). I understand this situation is different from eggs, as an egg not used for a vaccine can be converted to feed, but in the end it's all about money. It's like an insurance policy. I pay for auto insurance but don't use it until I really need it.

elihu 7y ago

I wonder what if there's a straightforward way to make facemasks by hand, or with tools that are generally available? I'm imagining cutting apart a furnace filter and wrapping the fabric around a wire frame, or something like that. If someone were to develop a process that was simple and reliably repeatable and produced good quality effective masks, that could be a way for otherwise un-busy people to keep hospital staff supplied. One issue I suppose is whether there are upstream bottlenecks, like not being able to get a reliable supply of the right kinds of filter material.

j-c-hewitt 7y ago
There are a lot of hospitals directing employees to sew them by hand. There is a simple and reliably repeatable method: having a factory. Not sure what is needed but there are lots of suppliers on Alibaba for this type of item. There are lots of rumors about export controls in China, denials of the same from Chinese officials, and rumors of seizure by US customs. Never imported medical stuff but anecdotally many US sellers are being solicited by Chinese factories looking to sell masks and other PPE into the US.
sp332 7y ago
It's not that easy to make N95 masks. Other kinds of masks are better than nothing but if you're in close proximity for hours a day, probably not good enough.

quietthrow 7y ago

Again severe failure on the govt’s part. Their inaction in when it was needed the most led to all these circumstances that makes it ripe for situations like these. As the number of infections spread and economic situation get worse these kind of things will get really really bad. Once the second and third order effects kick in it’s going to be a catastrophe. And our leaders answer to all of this is to give $1200 checks to people. All they care is about the economy as it gives them higher odds for their reelection. I don’t understand how such incompetence can be tolerated and why they are not fired and instead have to wait till next election.

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
> Again severe failure on the govt’s part. If you live in a democracy, then you are part of the government. You can't just blame other people for this.
- quietthrow 7y ago
  Agree. Active citizenry is the cornerstone of democracy. That’s why we have elected officials. But when they are unfit for the job and it doesn’t mean you blindly follow them to the abyss. There is something to be said for course correction and not waiting for the next cycle to make changes while millions of people get impacted. There is no doubt that people will needlessly die due to our abject failure to provide these test kits in a timely manner. Maintaining status quo / Dealing with things just for sake of tradition dosnt make sense in 2020. By that logic we should still not have women’s rights and continue on slavery because that’s the way it had been for so long? The leaders can do whatever they want and we have to wait for the next cycle beastie that’s the way things have always been?
- baddox 7y ago
  That’s ridiculous. An average citizen cannot vote more medical supplies into existence no matter how hard they vote.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

lettergram 7y ago

The crazy thing to me is the government or hospitals haven’t issued a massive n95 drive to obtain more. I have a few left over from a house project I did a while back. Kept one for myself, but happy to donate the other 4 I have. I’m sure if the request was actually made people would donate. Is it enough? No idea, but construction workers, painters, etc don’t need them right now. People want to do something, let them.

viraptor 7y ago
Just curious why are you waiting for a request? Why not call the nearest hospital and say "I've got 4 n95 masks, do you want them?" There is a problem with issuing a request - not everyone will know about it. As you mentioned, you think there was no request. But there were multiple: here's one example https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2020/hospitals-are-running-out-of-masks-industrial-masks-have-been-okd-for-use-are-local-construction-sites-donating-them/ https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2020/hospitals-are...
theslurmmustflo 7y ago
You know you basically have to toss them after a single use if you want them to be effective, right?

m3nu 7y ago

I do China sourcing and have decent access to 3-ply surgical masks and limited access to N95 masks. It's really hard to sell either of those to government bodies, even near cost. Already talked to the Red Cross, wholesale pharmacies and different ministries. They generally insist on payment on delivery, which we can't do for larger orders, as factories sell to whoever has the cash at the factory gate. Some also want EU certifications (FFP2), while many factories in China only have the local Chinese standard (KN95). And some refuse to pay to a company outside Europa, while wanting to buy stuff from China. So while I'd love to ship some of this stuff to Europe, currently people there are still blocking themselves. Hoping to work something out soon.

immad 7y ago
Can you email me (email in profile) and I can connect you to some people in the US trying to solve this.
- m3nu 7y ago
  Thanks! Sent some details.
- keenmaster 7y ago
  Why don't they just charge a higher price to buyers who don't pay cash now? I understand there is a lot of demand, but this does not compute with me. My spidey senses would be going off.
  - m3nu 7y ago
    This works for private buyers, but these gov agencies have a regulation that doesn't allow them to pay in advance ever. The price isn't the issue. So they can only buy from really big firms, who don't have stock right now and aren't flexible.
    - fingerlocks 7y ago
      How do I learn more about this regulation?

systemvoltage 7y ago

Let this be a lesson to learn for western democracies to not put all of their eggs in one basket. Diversification, localization and strategic globalization of the supply chain should be at the forefront of the issues to be discussed, ratified and acted upon after this pandemic is over. When one country manufactures 90% of world's goods (not accurate, to make a point), while the top 1% gets their bonuses for increasing profit margins, this is what we have. We've lost skills, we've lost our stance to manufacture things in our own homeland. It is depressing, deeply worrying and feels like the entire world has been gutted out by one country. Just to make it clear - think about this scenario - what would happen if one country made the food for the rest of the world? (Thankfully, we don't, but it can happen). What about pharmaceuticals? (Unfortunately, 90% of the world's generic drugs are made in Asia, primarily in India who in turn depends on China) [1]. [1] China is the world's largest raw materials exporter for Drugs: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-opens-door-to-foreign-drugs-for-a-discount-1543320003?mod=article_inline https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-opens-door-to-foreign-dru... Edit: I just realized that some of the startup and entrepreneurs around the world are on this forum, if you'd like to get into manufacturing, want to learn about more abstract concepts of manufacturing, I implore you to checkout: Manufacturing Planning and Control for Supply Chain Management reference book - https://books.google.com/books/about/Manufacturing_Planning_and_Control_for_S.html?id=TkGRswEACAAJ https://books.google.com/books/about/Manufacturing_Planning_... This book is absolute gold. Manufacturing is like playing this game Factorio (google it) but in real life. It is an exciting field ripe for innovation, many very hard problems and unlimited potential (and a lot of risk as well).

oezi 7y ago
But can this be done without abandoning capitalism as a primary driving economic model? It would require a reversal in economic steering (tariffs, government intervention, etc) of enormous scale. The only thing that has come to matter is the hunt to squeeze every penny, we have forgotten to do anything else.
- wbl 7y ago
  Tariffs result in domestic industries that can't compete. Germany has an export oriented manufacturing sector that employs lots of people and the US doesn't not because of Chins but because of US management.

innagadadavida 7y ago

Are there any reusable masks that are effective? It seems like throwing away these masks after a few hours of usage is partly to blame for the shortage. Generally damp materials are good at blocking particles better than dry ones. So is there any possibility of reusing the mask after washing in soap water?

joe_the_user 7y ago

The inability to just requisition, demand resource, mobilize people and so-forth, is breathtaking here. The start of WWII saw the quick re-purposing of industries for the war effort. Today, it seems an inability to see what's necessary and get it to people is disturbing. The situation is effectively a war and one that's being fought very quickly. I could brainstorm and mention the "fast fashion" is renown for creating conventional clothing to a variety of specifications, quickly. It seems like that talent could be harnessed for various kinds of safety equipment. Just an example, I'm sure there are a hundred similar things conceivable but despite the looming collapse of conventional procedures, somehow all bureaucratic hurdles remain in place.

pbourke 7y ago
> The inability to just requisition, demand resource, mobilize people and so-forth, is breathtaking here. A once-in-a-century threat arrived just as American leadership has fallen further than anyone thought possible in the postwar "Pax Americana" era. Just 4 years ago, this was unthinkable. Trump would be bad, but we'd have infrastructure spending and regulation cuts, at least. The adults would ultimately be in charge, as always. Right? We are witnessing the end of the American century. I hate to be so dire, so grim at a time when it's the last thing anyone needs. I'm sorry.
patrec 7y ago
I still can't believe that no western country is even capable of creating freaking face masks at scale (and no, doesn't need to be N95).

zachguo 7y ago

Car factories can be converted to produce masks. An electric car manufacturer in China, BYD, became the biggest mask maker in 3 weeks. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-13/buffett-backed-byd-says-it-s-now-the-biggest-maker-of-face-masks?srnd=technology-vp https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-13/buffett-b...

eigenvalue 7y ago

Chinese n95 masks are available very cheaply on Ali-Express from a variety of sellers who can ship by airmail. I don’t see why doctors/nurses shouldn’t order them personally if they can’t get them from work. For example: US $10.09 20％ Off | 10PCS Disposable KN95 Mask FFP2 Protective Mask Safety Masks 99％ Filtration for Dust Particulate Pollution N95 Protection https://a.aliexpress.com/_dSIOgZ3 https://a.aliexpress.com/_dSIOgZ3

toohotatopic 7y ago

What does it take to build those masks from scratch? We are at roughly 1 out of 100.000 being infected. Until 60% have developed immunity, there is still a long way to go where almost everybody on earth will want to own masks. The need of the hospitals is just the tip of the iceberg. Is it possible to source the machines and materials now to be ready for production when the wave hits really hard?

uxcolumbo 7y ago

Maybe this DIY approach to masks can help in the interim - better than no mask at all? http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/practice/homemade-personal-protective-equipment http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/practice/homemade-personal-protect...