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Company threatens to sue volunteers who 3D-printed valves for coronavirus aid
- cs702 7y agoAt first glance, this reads like the sort of horrible thing only a fictional megalomaniac villain would do, say, in a Bond movie.
- frollo 7y agoI'd like to see them try. To sell this kind of critical equipment to Italian hospitals you have to guarantee there will be no shortages even (especially) in critical conditions. They failed to uphold their part of the bargain with the country and at this moment both the government and the people are very short on patience. Probably, if they even try to sue the volunteers they are going to lose all their contracts with Italian hospitals in a matter of days.
- kichik 7y agoThey should hire them instead. Maybe together they can cut production costs so this life saving equipment doesn't have to be sold for $11,000.
- Craighead 7y agoThats the whole point though
- rolph 7y agoi think they like it to cost $11,000 and do things to keep it fixed that way
- Turing_Machine 7y ago> life saving equipment doesn't have to be sold for $11,000. Production costs don't really enter into it. The actual breakdown is probably more like: Production costs: $25 FDA approval: $100 million dollars
- hourislate 7y agoToo bad you got junked. This was a major complaint from folks Peter Attia had on that trying to take a drug etc to market can cost hundreds of millions and years through the FDA process. It actually could have been David Sinclair that was saying that but I might be mistaken.
- Turing_Machine 7y agoYeah, for a supposed entrepreneurial web site, there sure are a lot of people here nowadays who don't understand basic economics. This site has turned into a tech-flavored subreddit of Think Progress.
- capableweb 7y agoI'm sure the cost of these valves are not in the production but in the research of coming up with the design to produce and other things before production. So they price in order to recoup already spent money and get some profit on it too. For sure it doesn't cost them 11k to make.
- ncmncm 7y agoValves are mature technology. The expense to develop it is negligible. The expense to push it through regulatory apparatus might not be. Most likely it is a trivial variation on an already approved design, varied solely for the purposes of obtaining a new patent, and of getting an exclusive requirement for it to be used on the machine. There is no defensible reason to presume good faith on the part of a medical equipment manufacturer, even though a few do have it.
- capableweb 7y ago> There is no defensible reason to presume good faith on the part of a medical equipment manufacturer, even though a few do have it. I agree and I also think it's incredibly shitty of a medical company to threaten to sue in these trying times. Really exposes what they are all about. I was just trying to see the coin from the other side, trying to understand.
- kichik 7y agoThen maybe they can help them setup a way to license the 3D model so hospitals can print it themselves, but still pay. Whatever the price components are, clearly some innovation is needed here if there are not enough of these in hospitals.
- jariel 7y ago"Maybe together they can cut production costs so this life saving equipment doesn't have to be sold for $11,000 It's not the unit cost, it's the R&D that's expensive. The $5000 screwdriver definitely is a thing, if you need 5 Engineers to design it but only ever make 5 of them, to be used on the Space Shuttle for example.
- Turing_Machine 7y agoFDA approval is a big, big line item too. For drugs, it's something like $2 billion up front before you sell a single pill. For medical devices it's not as much, but still can be in the tens to hundreds of millions.
- waiseristy 7y agoWhere did this company "threaten" to sue? All I can find is the following source "Now, despite the country battling an unprecedented health crisis, there is potential for a legal battle with local media reporting that the manufacturers of the valves are refusing to share their blue print for further production and could potentially sue for copyright breaches." So they may have the option to sue?
- capableweb 7y ago> However, when the pair asked the manufacturer of the valves for blueprints they could use to print replicas, the company declined and threatened to sue for patent infringement, according to Business Insider Italia. Fracassi and Ramaioli moved ahead anyway by measuring the valves and 3D printing three different versions of them. Which links to https://it.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-manca-la-valvola-per-uno-strumento-di-rianimazione-e-noi-la-stampiamo-in-3d-accade-nellospedale-di-chiari-brescia/ https://it.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-manca-la-valvola-..., in Italian, and I don't understand Italian.
- waiseristy 7y agoTranslate to the rescue! "having received a negative remarry - indeed they also received threats of complaint for patent infringement" Coming from Massimo Temporelli, so checks out
- duxup 7y ago"received a negative remarry" Wat?
- monktastic1 7y agoI don't speak Italian, but I think the issue is this: > risposata negativa "Risposata" is "remarry." Presumably they wanted "risposta," which is "response." Probably just a typo.
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- landryraccoon 7y agoThis article feels like low quality clickbait to me. The company isn’t even named, and there’s no source given for the claim that a lawsuit was threatened.
- amayne 7y agoThis. There is insufficient details for the level of outrage people are displaying.
- dbcurtis 7y agoAt least in the US, I believe so long as you do not sell or transfer items, you can make them for your own use without licensing the patent. To win a law suit, the company would have to "show harm". They can't. They lost exactly zero sales.
- slimsag 7y agoBut in this case, it'd be for the hospital's use, so they would have lost sales technically and it'd be easy to show harm.
- harikb 7y agoMay be having the inability to produce for the required (life-saving) demand should invalidate the “lost sales” argument. Anyways, wait for the deaths to mount and they will all come around in fear of retribution
- nourse 7y agoThis is the opposite of true in that US patent law forbids even personal use but most European jurisdictions permit it.
- dillonmckay 7y agoForce majeure.
- dredmorbius 7y ago???
- Recursing 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure I think "Necessity" is more applicable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_(criminal_law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_(criminal_law) In italian: "Stato di necessità" https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stato_di_necessit%C3%A0 https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stato_di_necessit%C3%A0 Rough translation: Cannot punish someone for something if he did it to save himself or others from a grave damage, due to a danger he did not cause voluntarily, and not avoidable in other ways, if the thing done is proportional to the danger (IANAL)
- jagger27 7y ago$11,000 for a plastic valve. Unreal. No wonder hospitals are always stretched to the limit when they're being gouged like this. Think of it this way, a hospital could buy 10 valves or hire a physician for a year. Are these valves typically re-used? Are they going through them faster because they don't want to risk infecting other people?
- tathougies 7y agoPart of the cost is certainly regulatory / insurance underwriting approval, isn't it?
- TheOtherHobbes 7y agoAnd the rest is pure profit.
- thrill 7y agoIf it was that profitable there'd be dozens of competitors.
- al3xandre 7y ago... or there was and they consolidated to increase profits since antitrust is rarely enforced these days
- 0_gravitas 7y agoNot if the barrier to entry is high enough (and then also assuming there is zero collusion)
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y agoIt's also that entrenched, as well.
- awb 7y agoUnless there are patents involved.
- FpUser 7y agoFor what it worth the company might loose rights for their patent if it can be proven that it does not perform due diligence (chasing violators being one example).
- rblatz 7y agoI think you are confused with trademark law.
- FpUser 7y agoI am not. "A patent owner (patentee) may be precluded from enforcing its patent against an alleged infringer after a period of time from the first notice identifying the patent and possible infringement (e.g., 4 ½ years) if the following conditions are met: Misleading Conduct/Silence: The patent owner, through misleading conduct (or silence), leads the alleged infringer to reasonably infer that the patentee does not intend to enforce its patent against the alleged infringer (e.g., by sending a cease-and-desist letter followed by years of silence); Reliance: The alleged infringer relies on that conduct; and Prejudice: The alleged infringer will be materially prejudiced if the patent owner is allowed to proceed with its claim (e.g., alleged infringer has continued selling and expanding product lines). This legal doctrine known as patent equitable estoppel applies on a case-by-case basis to each patent asserted by the patent owner. Therefore, a patent owner may have other patents to enforce which may not be barred by equitable estoppel." - http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/consequences-of-patent-owners-delay-or-inactivity-against-infringer/ http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/consequences-of-patent-ow... Again I am getting downvotes for reporting facts. I guess mob opinion rules.
- bmn__ 7y agoIt's still a horrible inhuman thing to do. If the responsible CEO of the company were not a sociopath, he would have 1. provided the STL files for the plastic valve when the hobbyist 3D printer asked for them 2. granted a no-cost patent licence. That way the requirement by law to defend the patent does not arise in the first place.
- ardy42 7y ago> A medical device manufacturer has threatened to sue a group of volunteers in Italy that 3D printed a valve used for life-saving coronavirus treatments. The valve typically costs about $11,000 from the medical device manufacturer, but the volunteers were able to print replicas for about $1 (via Techdirt). What's the name of the manufacturer?
- enilakla 7y agoRight. I'm wondering the same. Enough bad pr and this will change quickly.
- majewsky 7y agoNo it won't. What are we gonna do, stop buying from them? We are not their customers to begin with, hospitals' procurement departments are.
- ardy42 7y ago> No it won't. What are we gonna do, stop buying from them? We are not their customers to begin with, hospitals' procurement departments are. You're wrong. We're not living in some capitalist cartoon. Even the greediest CEO doesn't want to be a villain in a lifesaving story like this.
- 29athrowaway 7y agoINTERSURGICAL S.P.A. https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1852137B1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/EP1852137B1/en
- yellowapple 7y agoRight on the heels of SoftBank-owned Labrador Diagnostics LLC suing over COVID tests: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22598988 Which company is suing over the 3D-printed valves? We need to name and shame. If we're unwilling to call out monopolists putting profits over even human life, then we, too, are complicit. On another note, I'm of the increasingly-strong belief that patent suits should be deemed automatically dismissed if the "infringement" is a response to either an inability or unwillingness of the patent holder to actually use that patent productively (i.e. produce something using that patent). In this case, if the original manufacturer is out of stock, 3D printing replacements should be fair game. Likewise, if we don't have enough testing kits, making and distributing more should be fair game.
- hirundo 7y ago> we are not going to spread the drawing. This part seems less than optimally ethical. If it's a choice between helping other hospitals to save lives and to avoid additional legal liability, this seems like a good hill to go bankrupt on. But...if someone slipped the file to me I wouldn't publish it either. So I can't fault them for being as faulty as me.
- Recursing 7y agoThey said they would print them for free for any hospital that needed them, I assume they would also send the drawings if asked by a hospital
- zozbot234 7y agoThis is adding nothing new over the previous BusinessInsider piece. It's just reporting (again) that this company asserted patent rights after the hospital and the 3D-printing firm requested the design in .STL format due to being unable to secure supplies in an unprecedented emergency. Which is what we knew already.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Maarten88 7y agoPeople are quibbling about money while millions of lives are at stake. We need tens of thousands of these medical devices and we need them fast. Like in the coming weeks. If companies who suddenly find themselves in a strategic position don't get what they need to do, then the Government needs to take control using emergency powers, and use any available production capacity in the country to ramp up production, fast. We'll also need to do many other things. We should adopt a wartime mentality, focus on solving the problems at hand, and stop wasting time. At least in Italy they get this now.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dredmorbius 7y agoCircumstances such as this call for mandatory licensing or pooling of patents. The system itself is broken and should be abolished, as has been long and well argued.
- hatenberg 7y agoThis crisis is really showing many ridiculous and completely unnecessary conditions in our systems and these will break down.
- sliken 7y agoThe world needs IP rules like the FCC (USA) has for Amateur Radio. The rules are basically if lives are in danger, anything goes.
- oldandtired 7y agoHaving seen the prices charged for drugs and how they then calculate future prices (after the R&D costs have been recovered), I have a very sceptical view of any comments that say we need to consider R&D and regulatory cost recovery before complaining about the prices being charged for anything in the medical technology field. Having also discussed what was seen by someone I know who left the corrupt world of advertising to go to the medical technology world, I also consider anybody saying the same about recovery of R&D and regulatory costs to either being a liar or deluded. The gentleman in question went back to the advertising world because they were innocent children compared to the corruption and price gouging that went on inside the medical technology industries. There is a captive market here and the seller can sell at any price they want and make any markup they want because they can. There are some very honourable people and companies who do not price gouge in the field. But it seems that these are a very small minority. Now mind you, this kind of price gouging occurs anywhere there is a captive market. But some industries are more susceptible to it than others.
- virtualritz 7y agoPrintcrime[1,2] by Doctorov becoming reality in one of the most nasty ways imaginable. [1] https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocke.. https://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocke.... [2] E-book download: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19000
- bensonn 7y agoThis linked article actually names "the manufacturer" and the lawyers. Name and shame! https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200316/14584244111/softbank-owned-patent-troll-using-monkey-selfie-law-firm-sues-to-block-covid-19-testing-using-theranos-patents.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200316/14584244111/softb...
- joe_the_user 7y agoThat appears to be about the troll suing about vaccines, not this situation of an manufacturer suing to stop 3d printing.
- jacquesm 7y agoLet them threaten. This is newsworthy when they actually sue. It would also require them to go on the record, with their names and the names of their executives and lawyers on full display. My money would be on that not happening.
- baltbalt 7y agoI call bullshit. Their is no way this valve cost $11,000. A quick google search for PEEP valves for respirators sow that they sell for a few dollars, 20 at most. It seems unlikely that any company would sue in such circumstances, it would be a PR nightmare. If the story was true prices would most likely be listed in euros. When this 3d printed valves story appeared a few days ago those exact figures were cited on Reddit as a joke. How they ended up presented as "Facts" on TheVerge is anyone's guess.
- ineedasername 7y agoI'm all for letting companies have a limited monopoly on innovations, but this just seems short-sighted. It's the kind of behavior that gets nations to pass something like "medical necessity" legislation allowing them to infringe patents under certain circumstances, or impose profiteering and price gouging statutes, or re-thing all of their health care systems' compensation levels for equipment & procedures. It's the sort of thing that can raise public ire against the entire medical device industry.
- jeffe 7y agoThis story has been updated since. https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-3d-print-valves-treatments https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-ital... Basically the company does not plan to sue, and was not selling the part at $10,000.
- Slarti 7y agoStory is not true. https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-3d-print-valves-treatments https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-ital...