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How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? I am not saying this is an ethical thing to do, I am saying these apps are no different from

How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? I am not saying this is an ethical thing to do, I am saying these apps are no different from nightclubs and they gotta do what they gotta do to survive. And no matter what you may say, humans prefer non ugly people over ugly people. I am sorry but this is simply how humans work. If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) and driven out of business?

enitihas 7y ago
Humans also prefer being politically correct, so you would surely see a lot of people shaming TikTok here.
- jsjddbbwj 7y ago
  Louder voices want to be politically correct and shame those who aren't.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    It's just a preference for moral attractiveness, don't be hating!
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  > prefer being politically correct Are you implying that it is only because of a sense of “political correctness” that people would object to discrimination?
ccktlmazeltov 7y ago
I think what a lot of nightclubs end up doing is definitely discriminatory and we should not tolerate that.
- microcolonel 7y ago
  As someone who does not frequent nightclubs, I don't really see the problem with a self-selecting group of people with standards? Some people don't want to see you, and that's their business.
  - afterburner 7y ago
    I mean, why give them a free pass for asshole behaviour? You can shame them and leave them alone.
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      Who are they being assholes to? You don't have a right to invade people's private spaces. I don't have to invite you into my home. Provided it's not a matter of a protected characteristic, the idea that you can push your way through the door by law is silly. They go there to meet people who titilate them, and who don't remind them of how life can go wrong; that's their business in my view. I know that I'm not attracted to ugly, unhealthy, or elderly people, and it's not wrong to feel that way, it is basically natural; and people who are themselves ugly, unhealthy, or elderly also feel these same things that you find ugly to acknowledge.
      - afterburner 7y ago
        > push your way through the door by law I guess you missed the part where I said you can leave them alone.
      - gbear605 7y ago
        A night club is your private home?
  - bjourne 7y ago
    About a decade ago there was a huge controversy where I live about many nightclubs limiting the number of immigrant male patrons per night. I guess you don't see a problem with that either? "Protected class" is a cop out because the question isn't about what the law says but what is moral.
zbentley 7y ago
> If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. That kind of tone is frowned upon here.
jjcm 7y ago
Or news stations, which hire presenters based on attractiveness. Or fashion products, which hire models based on attractiveness. Or the music industry, which puts forward pop stars that are attractive while keeping ones that don't have sex appeal off the air. Or the film industry. Or the literally any other industry that tries to survive via popularity and getting eye time. Attractiveness sells. What TikTok is doing is no different than any other industry, it's just that the models aren't getting paid.
- uwuhn 7y ago
  Don't forget the service industry. There's a correlation between how attractive you are and your earning ceiling for bartending and waitering/waitressing.
  - rambojazz 7y ago
    I can offer real world evidence in support of this correlation. I worked at 2 different restaurants in my life. I didn't get many tips; only pocket change if it was a good night. The hot waitresses could make as much as 1/3 of their monthly salary from tips.
- SzamarCsacsi 7y ago
  It's not the same though, is it? On Instagram and TikTok and the likes, you don't need "ugly filters", because there's instant feedback: clicks, impressions, likes, hearts, comments, whatever. In the film industry, for example, you won't know whether the product will be a success or not until after the fact that you spent a ton of money on it.
  - KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
    Suppressed is wrong. The for you page is more like free promotion and free promotion is not a human right. You can still promote your content manually even if it doesn't get on the for you page.
arnaudsm 7y ago
The "TikTok e-boy" and "Nightclub chad" are probably overlapping demographics.
- mr_toad 7y ago
  Nightclub Chad is probably e-boy’s granddad by now https://xkcd.com/2271/ https://xkcd.com/2271/
calcifer 7y ago
I'm honestly sad, but not surprised that a prime example of whataboutism is once again at the top of an HN thread.
anigbrowl 7y ago
I am sorry but this is simply how humans work. If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. No, that's how you work.
- echelon 7y ago
  It's how sexual selection works in general throughout the animal kingdom. You can teach yourself to behave otherwise, but you're hardwired to behave a certain way. Humans exist within a fitness gradient and we naturally evaluate other humans according to how they fit within it. I don't like it, but we're bloody animals.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    You're assuming a gradient of only one dimension.
    - echelon 7y ago
      It's a multidimensional landscape, and although people can see it differently, consistent patterns arise within the population. I wonder how much is genetic and how much is learned or conditioned.
afterburner 7y ago
> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) and driven out of business? Sure, why not?
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Should MENSA be shutdown on the grounds of it's discriminatory membership model?
  - afterburner 7y ago
    MENSA seems upfront about their requirements, and doesn't rely on tricking the masses to make them think they have a chance.
  - mwfunk 7y ago
    Nobody's talking about shutting anyone down. People can do shitty things even if they have a right to do them, and everyone else can think they're assholes. No contradictions. Same with free speech- people can say whatever they want, but if they say something that makes someone else think they're an asshole, the other person has a right to call them an asshole. Assholes are not criminals, they're just assholes and deserve to be treated as such.
  - Quarrelsome 7y ago
    I'm not sure that's a great example because its probably a better experience to be outside of MENSA than inside it.
  - CraigJPerry 7y ago
    Discriminating on mental agility seems an eminently useful thing to do.
    - badcede 7y ago
      They're not mentally agile enough to avoid MENSA.
  - 7y ago
stale2002 7y ago
> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed If you want to do that, then go ahead. But you should not use whataboutism to shame people into not fighting bad behavior on other platforms. At the end of the day, this behavior is not normal on most online platforms. And users have the right to shame platforms that do this, and you are the immoral one if you are trying to attack people for doing what they believe is right.
wolco 7y ago
Do they need human mods to make those decisions. Every other site takes popularity (which would includes looks) as a metrics for content people want to see. Human mods will always be a poor proxy unless the mods are known by name and have their own popularity and taste.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
urda 7y ago
> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? It's not, and that's pretty messed up too when you stop and actually think about it. > If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. Just going to shut out any opposition to your view point like that huh? Great chat. > So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do and driven out of business? Actually yes, discrimination is NOT OK and those supporting it need to be named and shamed.
mwfunk 7y ago
Because TikTok isn't a nightclub, it's a place for people to put their own content out on the Internet. Not just people, but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that doesn't allow them to access other places on the Internet that they could put their content on. But even ignoring the authoritarian state angle, surely you'd think it'd be weird and counterproductive for user content from YouTube or Instagram or imgur to have similar policies? Those sites are also not nightclubs or modeling agencies or a Hooters franchise either. FWIW it's totally shitty for nightclubs to be discriminatory in that way. I get why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less shitty of them, and it sure as hell doesn't let them off the hook for their shittiness in this regard. Tangentially, this is one of infinitely many reasons that nearly all of humanity hates nightclubs, including the people that feel socially obligated to go to them, and including people still young enough to convince themselves that they must be having fun there because it sure looks like everyone else is, not realizing that everyone else is thinking the exact same thing.
- thereare5lights 7y ago
  > Not just people, but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that doesn't allow them to access other places on the Internet that they could put their content on. No it's not. China has their own version of TikTok called Douyin. If I recall correctly, TikTok isn't even available in China. Since TikTok isn't even used in China, who exactly are the users you're describing as "people living in a pathologically authoritarian state"?
  - befictious 7y ago
    Have you gone to https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/ ? it IS TIKTOK...
    - thereare5lights 7y ago
      No it's fucking not. The content on the two are different. You cannot access TikTok content on Douyin nor can do you do the reverse. The point is: > but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that This is patently false. Unless you're calling the US an authoritarian state.
strken 7y ago
> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) TikTok users aren't aware of filtering yet, so telling them is a social good. Humans may prefer to see beautiful people, but filtering out ugly people means the majority of users will be below average compared to the content they view. They should at least know it's happening. > and driven out of business? Has this happened to TikTok?
- lowdose 7y ago
  Isn't this exactly what happened on Instagram?
- tracker1 7y ago
  Some of the other people may have insightful, informative or otherwise useful things to say/show.
dx87 7y ago
It also doesn't seem any different than restaurants that require a certain dress code. I remember being denied entry to a night club because I showed up wearing jeans and a t-shirt (it was a big group of us who didn't plan to go to a nightclub, but one member of our group knew the owner and said we should go). The only issue I could see is that TikTok isn't up front about about their "attractiveness" requirements.
chenster 7y ago
Since we are feeding the trolls on the subject of discriminating by appearances, comparing against night clubs is flawed. A night club should not allow just pretty people to enter because simply it is not fair. There might be a hidden rule for some but it doesn't mean that is the right thing to do to begin with. Tiktok is a social network for anyone to join. If they allow anyone to join but only want the good looking people to post, how is that not the hypocritical thing to do? It's increasingly becoming an issue on Social Neutrality (https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-about-social-media-neutrality-1517175805 https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-about-social-media-neutral...)
- lowdose 7y ago
  You have to compare it to the Playboy model. Only A+ girls are on view but everybody can is allowed to fap. Its good old fashion content consumption.
  - chenster 7y ago
    The difference is Playboy models are expected to be pretty not by hidden rules.
reaperducer 7y ago
How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Why does it matter? Because a nightclub does it, suddenly it's OK for TikTok to do it, too? If Johnny jumps off a bridge, are you going to leap as well?
AndrewKemendo 7y ago
It's not. It's just a giant nightclub filled with a lot of people, so there are more people to complain.
bjourne 7y ago
> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) and driven out of business? Business that engage in immoral behaviour should be shamed. Doesn't matter if it is casino sites, drug dealers or nightclubs that discriminate against ugly people. Whether that shaming results in them becoming unprofitable is beside the point.
tenebrisalietum 7y ago
My standard of ugly may not match yours. I can refuse to patronize a nightclub that bars people I like. Privately-run-and-owned social networks like TikTok tend to attain a critical mass where they're considered a utility when they're really not. So boycotts don't work because it becomes literally where everyone is after a while, and alternatives become difficult because the barrier to entry gets so high. That's the real problem, and the problem of a centralized Internet. I should be able to broadcast video from my house and participate in a peer-to-peer CDN of my choice. Tiktok is not a CDN, it's a presentation layer on top of their own CDN or one they rent through cloud providers.
EpicEng 7y ago
>How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? The nightclub lets you know where you stand at the door. I took a read of tik-tok's about page, and it gives me the impression that they're here for everyone. Just a platform to share short videos. The author of one of the featured videos on that page looks like someone who may have been filtered out. I don't think the analogy is completely off base, but we can judge tik-tok for being deceptive.
peterwwillis 7y ago
> humans prefer non ugly people over ugly people Nightclubs that have physical appearance standards have a business model designed around one end of the beauty preference spectrum. By itself, that's not bad; if you want to have a club for only right-handed people, that's fine. But it's unethical to then pretend that the club is for everyone, when it's really not. That's more like selling someone a car with a top speed of 120mph, but artificially limiting the speed for poorer people, and not telling them. Just because nightclubs walk a fine ethical line doesn't make other companies that also walk that line a great idea.
searchableguy 7y ago
It's the scale, purpose and effectiveness that is worrying rather than the similarity. Actually, I wouldn't call them very similar beyond their intent - to keep people coming and making money but everything else is wildly different and doesn't make sense to compare. Many night clubs want users to have "fun" so they pay for a membership. TikTok wants users to stay so they can collect enough data to give it to advertisers or government to target them better. A single night club won't have more than 100 people at any given time. But tiktok boasts 1.5 billion+ users and millions of them are active at any given time. Few people going to night clubs won't decide the future of your country but millions on tiktok or other US centric social media might - facebook? instagram? This too - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611404 Other comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22612589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22612589
monadic2 7y ago
> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Nightclubs tell you if they think you're not up to their standard. This is far more manipulative and cruel. You could even call it gas-lighting to simply encourage these people to post content!
antonzabirko 7y ago
Thank you for speaking the truth
DoreenMichele 7y ago
How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Most people going to nightclubs are there for fun. In contrast, it's possible to make money on Tiktok and a lot of handicapped people are desperately looking for ways to make money online. A lot of those people will not be beautiful people. Their disability makes sure of that in many cases. So the difference is that nightclubs are not telling people "You can make money from the comfort of home" and then shafting people who have few other viable means to make money. There may be a few sex workers and drug dealers making bank at the nightclub, but they already know they have to fly under the radar and can be thrown out if caught, etc. The nightclub isn't actively telling them they are welcome to hang there and establish an income, then secretly saying "only the sexy people."
qtplatypus 7y ago
Nightclubs are not allowed to exclude people with disabilities.
mirimir 7y ago
> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? I gather that TikTok claimed to be inclusive. Nightclubs almost by definition don't.
minusSeven 7y ago
They should probably make an exception for rich ugly people.
throwaway_pdp09 7y ago
Are you saying that some nightclubs actually turn people away for not being attractive, because I've never heard of this. Or do you mean another kind of bar?
- imgabe 7y ago
  They might not outright turn them away, but they might make them stand in a line that never moves, while other people walk right in. Pretty similar to how TikTok isn't stopping anybody from posting, they are just selective about what they feature. Don't casting agents and producers essentially do the same thing for movies and TV?
asdf9240 7y ago
This whole comment basically says, "it is how it is, so you can't criticize it." It is like saying, "racism will exist. Humans are just racist. Should businesses be publicly shamed for being racist if it is what their users want?" Now as for how we should treat businesses that treat people better based on their looks is not something I have a strong opinion about, but my two cents is that looks should not be a factor of how people get treated because it is possible that representation of "ugly" people in media could make many diverse looking people "attractive" to younger generations. This would be beneficial because it means that talent would have more priority over looks than before.
lordgrenville 7y ago
Really good analogy. I guess the answer is that it isn't ok that the nightclubs do it either, but they get overlooked because no-one has to be there. TikTok, being so widespread, gets closer scrutiny. A lot of things are like that. One example that comes to mind is that the New York Times, which frequently runs articles criticising tech companies for invading their users' privacy, loads a million trackers every time you access its website. When you're bigger (and more lucrative), different rules apply to you. Maybe that's not a bad thing.
- tsukurimashou 7y ago
  > the answer is that it isn't ok that the nightclubs do it either Tell me how it could work any other way? nightclubs are "popular" because of this selection, if anybody could come and go, what would make a place popular? I don't go to nightclubs and I don't enjoy it, but I can understand why it works that way, it may be unfair but if you break that, the whole concept falls apart. It is valid with any type of community, they simply value different things.
arendtio 7y ago
Using the word 'survive' suggests that nightclubs are living beings. A better wording would be 'to stay in business'. The individuals who they reject on the other hand are living beings, more specifically humans. And that is the point where it starts to become a moral issue because the business interest of an organization is directly linked to the discrimination of a group of humans. Yes, that is the way that kind of business works, but it should also be valid to consequently judge it as immoral.

enitihas 7y ago

Humans also prefer being politically correct, so you would surely see a lot of people shaming TikTok here.

jsjddbbwj 7y ago
Louder voices want to be politically correct and shame those who aren't.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  It's just a preference for moral attractiveness, don't be hating!
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
> prefer being politically correct Are you implying that it is only because of a sense of “political correctness” that people would object to discrimination?

ccktlmazeltov 7y ago

I think what a lot of nightclubs end up doing is definitely discriminatory and we should not tolerate that.

microcolonel 7y ago
As someone who does not frequent nightclubs, I don't really see the problem with a self-selecting group of people with standards? Some people don't want to see you, and that's their business.
- afterburner 7y ago
  I mean, why give them a free pass for asshole behaviour? You can shame them and leave them alone.
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    Who are they being assholes to? You don't have a right to invade people's private spaces. I don't have to invite you into my home. Provided it's not a matter of a protected characteristic, the idea that you can push your way through the door by law is silly. They go there to meet people who titilate them, and who don't remind them of how life can go wrong; that's their business in my view. I know that I'm not attracted to ugly, unhealthy, or elderly people, and it's not wrong to feel that way, it is basically natural; and people who are themselves ugly, unhealthy, or elderly also feel these same things that you find ugly to acknowledge.
    - afterburner 7y ago
      > push your way through the door by law I guess you missed the part where I said you can leave them alone.
    - gbear605 7y ago
      A night club is your private home?
- bjourne 7y ago
  About a decade ago there was a huge controversy where I live about many nightclubs limiting the number of immigrant male patrons per night. I guess you don't see a problem with that either? "Protected class" is a cop out because the question isn't about what the law says but what is moral.

zbentley 7y ago

> If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. That kind of tone is frowned upon here.

jjcm 7y ago

Or news stations, which hire presenters based on attractiveness. Or fashion products, which hire models based on attractiveness. Or the music industry, which puts forward pop stars that are attractive while keeping ones that don't have sex appeal off the air. Or the film industry. Or the literally any other industry that tries to survive via popularity and getting eye time. Attractiveness sells. What TikTok is doing is no different than any other industry, it's just that the models aren't getting paid.

uwuhn 7y ago
Don't forget the service industry. There's a correlation between how attractive you are and your earning ceiling for bartending and waitering/waitressing.
- rambojazz 7y ago
  I can offer real world evidence in support of this correlation. I worked at 2 different restaurants in my life. I didn't get many tips; only pocket change if it was a good night. The hot waitresses could make as much as 1/3 of their monthly salary from tips.
SzamarCsacsi 7y ago
It's not the same though, is it? On Instagram and TikTok and the likes, you don't need "ugly filters", because there's instant feedback: clicks, impressions, likes, hearts, comments, whatever. In the film industry, for example, you won't know whether the product will be a success or not until after the fact that you spent a ton of money on it.
- KaoruAoiShiho 7y ago
  Suppressed is wrong. The for you page is more like free promotion and free promotion is not a human right. You can still promote your content manually even if it doesn't get on the for you page.

arnaudsm 7y ago

The "TikTok e-boy" and "Nightclub chad" are probably overlapping demographics.

mr_toad 7y ago
Nightclub Chad is probably e-boy’s granddad by now https://xkcd.com/2271/ https://xkcd.com/2271/

calcifer 7y ago

I'm honestly sad, but not surprised that a prime example of whataboutism is once again at the top of an HN thread.

anigbrowl 7y ago

I am sorry but this is simply how humans work. If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. No, that's how you work.

echelon 7y ago
It's how sexual selection works in general throughout the animal kingdom. You can teach yourself to behave otherwise, but you're hardwired to behave a certain way. Humans exist within a fitness gradient and we naturally evaluate other humans according to how they fit within it. I don't like it, but we're bloody animals.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  You're assuming a gradient of only one dimension.
  - echelon 7y ago
    It's a multidimensional landscape, and although people can see it differently, consistent patterns arise within the population. I wonder how much is genetic and how much is learned or conditioned.

afterburner 7y ago

> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) and driven out of business? Sure, why not?

ShorsHammer 7y ago
Should MENSA be shutdown on the grounds of it's discriminatory membership model?
- afterburner 7y ago
  MENSA seems upfront about their requirements, and doesn't rely on tricking the masses to make them think they have a chance.
- mwfunk 7y ago
  Nobody's talking about shutting anyone down. People can do shitty things even if they have a right to do them, and everyone else can think they're assholes. No contradictions. Same with free speech- people can say whatever they want, but if they say something that makes someone else think they're an asshole, the other person has a right to call them an asshole. Assholes are not criminals, they're just assholes and deserve to be treated as such.
- Quarrelsome 7y ago
  I'm not sure that's a great example because its probably a better experience to be outside of MENSA than inside it.
- CraigJPerry 7y ago
  Discriminating on mental agility seems an eminently useful thing to do.
  - badcede 7y ago
    They're not mentally agile enough to avoid MENSA.
- 7y ago

stale2002 7y ago

> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed If you want to do that, then go ahead. But you should not use whataboutism to shame people into not fighting bad behavior on other platforms. At the end of the day, this behavior is not normal on most online platforms. And users have the right to shame platforms that do this, and you are the immoral one if you are trying to attack people for doing what they believe is right.

wolco 7y ago

Do they need human mods to make those decisions. Every other site takes popularity (which would includes looks) as a metrics for content people want to see. Human mods will always be a poor proxy unless the mods are known by name and have their own popularity and taste.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

urda 7y ago

> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? It's not, and that's pretty messed up too when you stop and actually think about it. > If you disagree, then you are a hypocrite. Just going to shut out any opposition to your view point like that huh? Great chat. > So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do and driven out of business? Actually yes, discrimination is NOT OK and those supporting it need to be named and shamed.

mwfunk 7y ago

Because TikTok isn't a nightclub, it's a place for people to put their own content out on the Internet. Not just people, but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that doesn't allow them to access other places on the Internet that they could put their content on. But even ignoring the authoritarian state angle, surely you'd think it'd be weird and counterproductive for user content from YouTube or Instagram or imgur to have similar policies? Those sites are also not nightclubs or modeling agencies or a Hooters franchise either. FWIW it's totally shitty for nightclubs to be discriminatory in that way. I get why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less shitty of them, and it sure as hell doesn't let them off the hook for their shittiness in this regard. Tangentially, this is one of infinitely many reasons that nearly all of humanity hates nightclubs, including the people that feel socially obligated to go to them, and including people still young enough to convince themselves that they must be having fun there because it sure looks like everyone else is, not realizing that everyone else is thinking the exact same thing.

thereare5lights 7y ago
> Not just people, but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that doesn't allow them to access other places on the Internet that they could put their content on. No it's not. China has their own version of TikTok called Douyin. If I recall correctly, TikTok isn't even available in China. Since TikTok isn't even used in China, who exactly are the users you're describing as "people living in a pathologically authoritarian state"?
- befictious 7y ago
  Have you gone to https://www.douyin.com/ https://www.douyin.com/ ? it IS TIKTOK...
  - thereare5lights 7y ago
    No it's fucking not. The content on the two are different. You cannot access TikTok content on Douyin nor can do you do the reverse. The point is: > but primarily people living in a pathologically authoritarian state that This is patently false. Unless you're calling the US an authoritarian state.

strken 7y ago

> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) TikTok users aren't aware of filtering yet, so telling them is a social good. Humans may prefer to see beautiful people, but filtering out ugly people means the majority of users will be below average compared to the content they view. They should at least know it's happening. > and driven out of business? Has this happened to TikTok?

lowdose 7y ago
Isn't this exactly what happened on Instagram?
tracker1 7y ago
Some of the other people may have insightful, informative or otherwise useful things to say/show.

dx87 7y ago

It also doesn't seem any different than restaurants that require a certain dress code. I remember being denied entry to a night club because I showed up wearing jeans and a t-shirt (it was a big group of us who didn't plan to go to a nightclub, but one member of our group knew the owner and said we should go). The only issue I could see is that TikTok isn't up front about about their "attractiveness" requirements.

chenster 7y ago

Since we are feeding the trolls on the subject of discriminating by appearances, comparing against night clubs is flawed. A night club should not allow just pretty people to enter because simply it is not fair. There might be a hidden rule for some but it doesn't mean that is the right thing to do to begin with. Tiktok is a social network for anyone to join. If they allow anyone to join but only want the good looking people to post, how is that not the hypocritical thing to do? It's increasingly becoming an issue on Social Neutrality (https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-about-social-media-neutrality-1517175805 https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-about-social-media-neutral...)

lowdose 7y ago
You have to compare it to the Playboy model. Only A+ girls are on view but everybody can is allowed to fap. Its good old fashion content consumption.
- chenster 7y ago
  The difference is Playboy models are expected to be pretty not by hidden rules.

reaperducer 7y ago

How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Why does it matter? Because a nightclub does it, suddenly it's OK for TikTok to do it, too? If Johnny jumps off a bridge, are you going to leap as well?

AndrewKemendo 7y ago

It's not. It's just a giant nightclub filled with a lot of people, so there are more people to complain.

bjourne 7y ago

> So should high end nightclubs be publicly shamed for doing what they do (when what their "users" want is exactly non-ugly people) and driven out of business? Business that engage in immoral behaviour should be shamed. Doesn't matter if it is casino sites, drug dealers or nightclubs that discriminate against ugly people. Whether that shaming results in them becoming unprofitable is beside the point.

tenebrisalietum 7y ago

My standard of ugly may not match yours. I can refuse to patronize a nightclub that bars people I like. Privately-run-and-owned social networks like TikTok tend to attain a critical mass where they're considered a utility when they're really not. So boycotts don't work because it becomes literally where everyone is after a while, and alternatives become difficult because the barrier to entry gets so high. That's the real problem, and the problem of a centralized Internet. I should be able to broadcast video from my house and participate in a peer-to-peer CDN of my choice. Tiktok is not a CDN, it's a presentation layer on top of their own CDN or one they rent through cloud providers.

EpicEng 7y ago

>How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? The nightclub lets you know where you stand at the door. I took a read of tik-tok's about page, and it gives me the impression that they're here for everyone. Just a platform to share short videos. The author of one of the featured videos on that page looks like someone who may have been filtered out. I don't think the analogy is completely off base, but we can judge tik-tok for being deceptive.

peterwwillis 7y ago

> humans prefer non ugly people over ugly people Nightclubs that have physical appearance standards have a business model designed around one end of the beauty preference spectrum. By itself, that's not bad; if you want to have a club for only right-handed people, that's fine. But it's unethical to then pretend that the club is for everyone, when it's really not. That's more like selling someone a car with a top speed of 120mph, but artificially limiting the speed for poorer people, and not telling them. Just because nightclubs walk a fine ethical line doesn't make other companies that also walk that line a great idea.

searchableguy 7y ago

It's the scale, purpose and effectiveness that is worrying rather than the similarity. Actually, I wouldn't call them very similar beyond their intent - to keep people coming and making money but everything else is wildly different and doesn't make sense to compare. Many night clubs want users to have "fun" so they pay for a membership. TikTok wants users to stay so they can collect enough data to give it to advertisers or government to target them better. A single night club won't have more than 100 people at any given time. But tiktok boasts 1.5 billion+ users and millions of them are active at any given time. Few people going to night clubs won't decide the future of your country but millions on tiktok or other US centric social media might - facebook? instagram? This too - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22611404 Other comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22612589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22612589

monadic2 7y ago

> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Nightclubs tell you if they think you're not up to their standard. This is far more manipulative and cruel. You could even call it gas-lighting to simply encourage these people to post content!

antonzabirko 7y ago

Thank you for speaking the truth

DoreenMichele 7y ago

How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? Most people going to nightclubs are there for fun. In contrast, it's possible to make money on Tiktok and a lot of handicapped people are desperately looking for ways to make money online. A lot of those people will not be beautiful people. Their disability makes sure of that in many cases. So the difference is that nightclubs are not telling people "You can make money from the comfort of home" and then shafting people who have few other viable means to make money. There may be a few sex workers and drug dealers making bank at the nightclub, but they already know they have to fly under the radar and can be thrown out if caught, etc. The nightclub isn't actively telling them they are welcome to hang there and establish an income, then secretly saying "only the sexy people."

qtplatypus 7y ago

Nightclubs are not allowed to exclude people with disabilities.

mirimir 7y ago

> How is this different from nightclubs having a high bar to entry? I gather that TikTok claimed to be inclusive. Nightclubs almost by definition don't.

minusSeven 7y ago

They should probably make an exception for rich ugly people.

throwaway_pdp09 7y ago

Are you saying that some nightclubs actually turn people away for not being attractive, because I've never heard of this. Or do you mean another kind of bar?

imgabe 7y ago
They might not outright turn them away, but they might make them stand in a line that never moves, while other people walk right in. Pretty similar to how TikTok isn't stopping anybody from posting, they are just selective about what they feature. Don't casting agents and producers essentially do the same thing for movies and TV?

asdf9240 7y ago

This whole comment basically says, "it is how it is, so you can't criticize it." It is like saying, "racism will exist. Humans are just racist. Should businesses be publicly shamed for being racist if it is what their users want?" Now as for how we should treat businesses that treat people better based on their looks is not something I have a strong opinion about, but my two cents is that looks should not be a factor of how people get treated because it is possible that representation of "ugly" people in media could make many diverse looking people "attractive" to younger generations. This would be beneficial because it means that talent would have more priority over looks than before.

lordgrenville 7y ago

Really good analogy. I guess the answer is that it isn't ok that the nightclubs do it either, but they get overlooked because no-one has to be there. TikTok, being so widespread, gets closer scrutiny. A lot of things are like that. One example that comes to mind is that the New York Times, which frequently runs articles criticising tech companies for invading their users' privacy, loads a million trackers every time you access its website. When you're bigger (and more lucrative), different rules apply to you. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

tsukurimashou 7y ago
> the answer is that it isn't ok that the nightclubs do it either Tell me how it could work any other way? nightclubs are "popular" because of this selection, if anybody could come and go, what would make a place popular? I don't go to nightclubs and I don't enjoy it, but I can understand why it works that way, it may be unfair but if you break that, the whole concept falls apart. It is valid with any type of community, they simply value different things.

arendtio 7y ago

Using the word 'survive' suggests that nightclubs are living beings. A better wording would be 'to stay in business'. The individuals who they reject on the other hand are living beings, more specifically humans. And that is the point where it starts to become a moral issue because the business interest of an organization is directly linked to the discrimination of a group of humans. Yes, that is the way that kind of business works, but it should also be valid to consequently judge it as immoral.