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Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

180 points by lflux 7y ago

quest88 7y ago
I wonder why they need a union. Is something currently not working in their favor?
- monadic2 7y ago
  Probably management if I were to guess.
  - quest88 7y ago
    Lol well there are a lot of compelling guesses but I'd like the article to concretely say why.
- eganist 7y ago
  I can't tell if there's a trace of sarcasm in the comment, so for the avoidance of doubt, I'll link to a pretty good lay read on issues in the game industry. https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/ https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/
  - quest88 7y ago
    That's the game industry. I want to know about this specific company. The original article doesn't say why.
  - quest88 7y ago
    As a side note on the gaming industry: That industry seems notoriously bad so I wonder why people keep joining it. It also seems competitive to get in. So, to me, it seems like people know what they're getting themselves into before joining.
    - dblohm7 7y ago
      > That industry seems notoriously bad so I wonder why people keep joining it. Because kids romanticize it and think that their job will involve playing video games all day.
    - richdougherty 7y ago
      People want to work on computer games for non financial reasons so they'll take lower pay and accept worse conditions. Similar examples are the film or music industries.
    - mattsfrey 7y ago
      Game development is exceptionally fun and engaging as far as software goes, so the supply/demand ratio is much more skewed. I would agree people are likely aware of the worse working conditions and pay etc, but are just passionate about it enough to do it anyway. I was an amateur game developer that always imagined a career in game dev but after learning about the economics of it went with more general commercial software as a career, but I still envy game devs for the work they get to do and their overall satisfaction with that work. --EDIT: It's also worth noting that if you are on the digital content side of game dev like modeling and mapping there's not a ton of alternative options for practicing those skillsets professionally, unlike programming.
    - manfredo 7y ago
      Making games is a lot of people's passion. This inflates the supply of labor for game development, which reduces cost (as well as lowering expectations for stability, work life balance, etc.) It's hard to negotiate for good work life balance and wages, when people are enamored with game development and willing to tolerate crunch time and cyclical labor demand.
  - stickfigure 7y ago
    You're probably confusing Glitch (the company that used to be Fog Creek) with Glitch (the video game that led to the creation of Slack). Different company, different industry.
  - Grimm1 7y ago
    The game industry treats people horribly and there is obvious collusion to keep wages suppressed I would expect attempts to form unions there. I'm still however not sold on the idea that tech in general needs unions, but am open to the idea that it may be a variable need company to company for certain groups of people. Just don't make me have to join one, because I am fairly convinced it's not in my best personal interest and same for a lot of other tech workers like me.
  - pdkl95 7y ago
    In addition to this article, a very good video discussing unions in the game industry that includes an interview with Game Workers Unite and testimonials from people working in the industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY
- wolco 7y ago
  Why not join together and bargain as a team? Glitch isn't a startup. It's a 20 year old company with probably rigid rules.
  - quest88 7y ago
    Why not doesn't answer why. Do they need to join together because things are bad? Sub-optimal? Good?
    - mplewis 7y ago
      If you don't have C-level salary and ownership, things can always be better.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    It is a 20 year old company, but according to what I can find it's still between 11 and 50 employees.
  - ughitsaaron 7y ago
    > Why not join together and bargain as a team? "Bargain as a team" is called "collective bargaining" is called a "union". Just avoid the indirection and call the thing by its name.
    - fiter 7y ago
      I believe the commentator that you're replying to was referring to the fact that they just brought in a union with 700,000 other employees[0]. That significantly alters their team. [0] Communications Workers of America (CWA) is the largest communications and media labor union in the United States, representing about 700,000 members in both the private and public sectors (also in Canada and Puerto Rico).
- throwaway10018 7y ago
  Throwaway account because duh. Note that I am not a current Glitch employee, but am well-connected to Glitch née Fog Creek. Management was basically incredibly incompetent, for a long time, and were so unfair to employees at the company that they felt this was the only option. There is a Tweet stream a couple months ago from someone who left the company who highlighted the amazing degree to which they were unfairly reviewed and unfairly criticized, alongside how much work product they were expected to produce (which was unreasonable). I have enough corroboration to say that the tweet stream as written is fairly unbiased, and that their experience was common. My understanding is the employees felt backed into a corner. I think unions can be very, very valuable, but I think needing one at a small company that took a series A round quite recently speaks more to management failure than anything else. I'm happy that they unionized, because it sounds like they needed to, but I am so fucking disappointed that it was necessary.
  - fnbr 7y ago
    Can you link to the tweet stream?
    - throwaway10018 7y ago
      I knew people would ask and I'm trying to find it. I promise to edit this comment or post under it once I do. EDIT: Medium, not Twitter; sorry. https://medium.com/@scientiffic/on-the-aftermath-of-quitting-b778f56a549 https://medium.com/@scientiffic/on-the-aftermath-of-quitting...
  - pkaye 7y ago
    I remember Fog Creek used to be a well liked company years back...
  - quest88 7y ago
    Thanks for the report, exactly what I was looking for! This is something I wish had been in the article. Even something vague, like "Employees reported they were unhappy with management and the performance evaluation system. The union with CWA will work with management to blah blah blah". Agree that it sounds like a management failure. Thanks!
- rideontime 7y ago
  Maybe they would just like a union :)
- NullInvictus 7y ago
  A myth Americans believe is that you only need to form unions when there is an existing problem. That's like wanting medical coverage only after you get sick. You will not have the resources and voice if you wait until a crisis to organize. The employers relationship with unions is only antagonistic because of this waiting until crisis. on a secondary note, there is nothing wrong with living in a democracy and wanting representation in your community. Our work is a part of our community as much as any other space, especially since we spend so much time there and center our lives around it.
  - kodablah 7y ago
    > A myth Americans believe is that you only need to form unions when there is an existing problem. I don't think this is true. Rather, they don't buy the myth that unions have no downsides. Therefore you choose not to willingly accept such downsides until necessary. Arguably medical coverage is always necessary and is a poor comparison.
  - throwaway894345 7y ago
    I keep an open mind about unions. I hear they work well in many places (usually in Europe, for whatever reason), but many of us from blue collar American backgrounds only have experience with them protecting laggards and creating ridiculously inefficient working restrictions[^1][^2] which (presumably?) drive jobs overseas. I guess my questions for union proponents are: "Why do unions seem to work so poorly in the United States?" and "How do we make sure these proposed software unions don't suffer similarly?". How do we get the good without the bad? [^1]: A particularly egregious example from the factory where my dad works as a maintenance person: they have a machine that cuts cardboard; to service the blade, they need 3 people: one to remove the bolts holding the blade in place, another to remove the blade, and yet another to service it (and then the first two must replace the blade and the bolts, respectively). There must be three distinct people (IIRC because they're from different unions or something similarly silly) by contract (not because removing the bolts or the blade requires special training), which generally involves a lot of waiting for each person to be available--something that could take half an hour often spans multiple days. [^2]: Another particularly egregious example from my father-in-law's IT office (he has since retired): employees generally laze about doing little; they aren't allowed to browse the Internet or play games, but some bring in books and one woman literally sits staring vacantly at her black-screen monitor for hours on end. No idea why electronic idleness is okay, but reading, etc are okay.
Apocryphon 7y ago
My highlights: > 90% of the workers indicated their support for joining CWA and authorized CWA to be their bargaining representative > about half of whom work in the New York City headquarters and half of whom work remotely throughout the country > Employees at major American tech and game companies have grown increasingly active and outspoken about workplace issues, including sexual assault and harassment, ageism, unequal pay, “crunch time” (i.e. long-term overtime and overworking), poor treatment of contract workers, inadequate racial and gender diversity, and lack of transparency and inclusion in decision-making around controversial contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). > “We appreciate that unlike so many employers, the Glitch management team decided to respect the rights of its workforce to choose union representation without fear or coercion." > CWA was founded by telecom workers, and supports media workers through its Newsguild-CWA and NABET-CWA sectors.
- m0zg 7y ago
  Game studios especially need this. I'm a conservative in most other labor-related things (liberal on social issues), but holy shit the devs are abused by the game studios.
  - bennysonething 7y ago
    Completely disagree. They aren't miners working in horrible conditions where that's the only job in town. Game developers are highly talented, skilled individuals. There is a high demand for such people outside the game industry they choose to stay there. I'm a developer in the finance industry. Worked in a few other sectors too. If games industry is harsh, jump ship. Abused? Get real, the working populations outside the western world are abused and with little choice (and a lot of people in the west lower down the food chain). I think it's insulting to to people with limited options no money to lump games devs in with them. Personally speaking, last thing I'd want in software industry is a Union. Graded pay scales that take no account of productivity variability is a sure fire way to kill an industry. We re a privileged bunch as developers.
    - 7y ago
lbotos 7y ago
Here is a question: Why don't we have more smaller unions in America, but instead these GIANT mega unions? I get collective bargaining is better with more numbers, but it feels like there is no way to have a "new" union exist?
- chimeracoder 7y ago
  > Here is a question: Why don't we have more smaller unions in America, but instead these GIANT mega unions? US labor law differs from European labor law, and it essentially encourages/requires a small number of conglomerate unions, each of which have exclusive representation within a company, rather than a larger number of independent unions which can coexist within a single company.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    Sounds like as with our healthcare system and many other major problems in America, the problem isn't purely government vs. industry or liberal vs. conservative, but rather a mess of both.
    - danharaj 7y ago
      Government Vs. Industry and Liberal vs. Conservative are distinctions that serve to obfuscate the true divide in our system: Capitalists vs. everyone else. Capital doesn't care about these distinctions. The difference between the Cabinet and the Boardroom is akin to a room with a curtain in the middle. It is all the same with the large corporate unions. They are designed to be run by those cozy with the ruling class and stifle actual workplace democracy.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        Some of the endorsement antics during the Democratic primaries exposes that, but I'm making a less partisan point: our healthcare system simultaneously includes incomplete or bad private insurance plans, yet U.S. spends a larger amount per citizen for health care than most other developed nations. It's an unholy mess of inefficient bureaucracy and failed private-public relations, rent-seeking, crony capitalism, unhelpful regulations, outdated systems, and scaling issues leading to bloated organizations that pleases nobody.
whoisjuan 7y ago
Ignorant question. But how do union dues work? Is it a percentage of your paycheck or a fixes cost? Also I assume there’s a formation/founding cost. How does that work?
- kyoob 7y ago
  It's usually a percentage of workers' paychecks, between 1-2% is pretty standard. Founding, organizing, and legal stuff for newly forming unions can be handled by the larger organization (e.g. CWA) using pooled dues from existing unions within that organization.
  - sevenf0ur 7y ago
    Losing that much per paycheck with nothing guaranteed in return would chaff me after awhile. I hope it works out for them.
    - einpoklum 7y ago
      If your union is actually _your union_, i.e. yourself and your co-workers, organizing together to do something - then you're not paying to get a "return". You're participating in your own collective effort. Pecuniary union achievements are an added bonus (though a frequent one). Unfortunately, with larger unions, or those with weaker consciousness and mis-perceptions of what a union is supposed to be - there's alienation between the member worker on one hand and the union and its operatives on the other, and then dues payment seems to be something transactional: "What will you get me in exchange for what I pay you?"
    - johnpowell 7y ago
      I was a union HVAC guy for a few years. And one very nice thing was that there were union shops and they went through the union to find employees. So if work dried up at one place the union would take care of getting my unemployment going and then when work came up they would call and say that I was needed elsewhere. This probably wouldn't translate well to software. But it works great if you are installing ducts. Same goes for plumbers and electricians. My sisters first husband was a union electrician. That is why I looked into getting a union gig. I hate job hunting. In the years I did it I worked for five different companies. I didn't have to run around dropping off resumes and doing practice tests. I just got a call from the union and was told where to go to work. And I made significantly more than my non-union counterparts. Easily more than the dues I had to pay.
gadders 7y ago
Interesting development. Glitch used to be Fog Creek, where Joel Spolsky talked of treating developers well (latest hardware, private offices etc) and paying them well. I wonder if the culture has changed and that's why the developers felt the need to create a union. [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-developers-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d...]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jypepin 7y ago
  Also surprised because I thought it was a very small company (less than 50). I'm wondering if it's really useful to unionize for such a small company?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hinkley 7y ago
  Joel talking about the great care they took to build their offices (in a way that I felt was a huge mistake) was sort of the beginning of me realizing that he doesn't get everything right. There's also an uncanny valley effect, where ignoring a problem entirely means that your employees may have needs they aren't aware of, and as soon as you shine a light on it, their job satisfaction is actually lower until you get it right. I think a couple of my bosses understood this intuitively and would invite us to participate in developing solutions. We are much more patient with ourselves than with others.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    What's wrong with how they built their offices, in your opinion?
    - hinkley 7y ago
      There's a lot of crappy office politics that circles around access to daylight. You invariably have a mismatch between Valuable Employees and Valuable deskspace, jockying for position becomes a distraction and having multiple grades of desk just kind of beats the newer employees about the head and shoulders with how little they matter. It is, in a word, fractious. The best solution I've seen for this is to keep most of the windows in public spaces. If I go for water or to the bathroom, I should get daylight. Impromptu meeting spaces and lunch spots: daylight. The thing is, developers say they want daylight at their desk, and then they realize that they can't actually work in natural light (this has gotten better in just the last few years, but I've been watching this happen for 20), and so the people who 'own' the windows end up closing the blinds to work in peace. The worse this ever got, we had the top floor of a building and so many blinds were closed all day that we might as well have rented space in the basement for half the price/ft² So now if I am to get any daylight it is at the sole discretion of someone already on an ego trip? No thank you. Move the desks so that people can see daylight but aren't in daylight. All the windows stay open, your AC bills are a little lower, and the steepness of the pecking order is not quite so brazen.
pje 7y ago
Congratulations!
pmoriarty 7y ago
The recent flowering of union membership in the tech industry really warms my heart and makes me hope that this is the start of a pro-union resurgence nation-wide that reverses the conservative anti-union backlash that has dominated the US for decades. Unfortunately, conservatives have been mostly successful in gaining control of the courts, so expect union-busting measures to be rubber-stamped by them. There is likely to be much conflict between labor and owners.
- chrisco255 7y ago
  My concern as a libertarian is that unionizing tech will lead to calcification, decline of agility and innovation, and diversity of business structure. There's no question that the U.S. has been more innovative in tech than other countries over the past few decades. That's thanks to an entrepreneurial culture that encourages risk taking. Unions attempt to limit risk to employees. In doing so, they limit the agility of organizations. That is a significant trade-off worth pondering and debating.
  - vangelis 7y ago
    Funny, I feel the same way about MBA mills and slash and burn private equity firms.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      And don't forget "let 9 fail to find 1 unicorn" VCs!
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      That's a pretty universal viewpoint. Even the most business-friendly people would be skeptical of someone saying that private equity "warms their heart", or talking about how we need to stop MBA-busting and reverse the "liberal anti-MBA backlash".
  - pjc50 7y ago
    We're back to upside and downside risk. If you want "flexibility", you have to offer more. The US west coast startup culture has done OK at giving staff a share of the potential upside. The games industry, on the other hand, is notorious for even successful games resulting in studio closures, and employees exposing themselves to the risks of crunch time being rewarded with layoffs. I know the ideal libertarian corporate structure has a single CEO making a huge salary controlling a vast collection of precariat workers who are paid the bare minimum to avoid them becoming homeless, or slightly less, but this is .. unpopular with everyone else.
baybal2 7y ago
I've been hearing for a long time that there were attempts at making a union at Microsoft back in nineties. Anybody privy to the info how it fared?
ryanmarsh 7y ago
Do unions (specifically this union) promote and standardize levels of craftsmanship or is that still an unsolved problem? I kinda wish proper guilds would become a thing in tech. I feel they could solve both the craftsmanship and workers rights problems but oh well...
godzillabrennus 7y ago
Six months from now we will likely be wishing we had union jobs.
ColonelSanders 7y ago
For a union, it's concerning when some things are more tailored to the whims, edge cases, personal niches of the most vocal, rather than shielding the common denominator of the cooperative from management's business decisions. I'd like to explain what I like, and what I'm concerned about: > Employees at major American tech and game companies have grown increasingly active and outspoken about workplace issues, Very union related, that's what unions are for. > including sexual assault and harassment, Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > ageism, That's vague, but there are protections against this > unequal pay, Not sure what this means, pay between workers of the same level of seniority performing the same responsibilities? Overtime? A lot of things factor into equal pay. A junior employee isn't going to make as much as a 20 year employee. > “crunch time” (i.e. long-term overtime and overworking), Looks right. These are covered in union contracts > poor treatment of contract workers, If they have union membership? Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? > inadequate racial and gender diversity, What does that mean? Inadequate to whom? What makes those characteristics worthy but other characteristics not? I find it very hurtful and insensitive to people who struggle, suffer, overcome odds, from difficult upbringings, but not member of some class or facet. Why reduce the struggle, character, and worth of someone down to those things? Where does this come from? What does this say to your colleagues who don't have these traits? Do they have life easy? Have you walked a mile in their shoes? > and lack of transparency and inclusion in decision-making around controversial contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). That is not the kind of decision I think employees should be deciding. Though if a larger organization wanted to allow someone to move somewhere else in the org, that seems fair
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  > Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > That's vague, but there are protections against this > Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? Unions can be an additional safety net/layer of protection/tool against these discriminations and abuses. In a time when HR departments are often derided as existing to protect the company instead of workers, and it often takes either media exposure or self-publishing (as with Susan Fowler) for discrimination against protected classes to be acknowledged, a union could be a place for the discriminated to turn to where HR reps fail. At least then you don't have to hire your own lawyer. > unequal pay, This might be a gender gap criticism meaning unequal pay between workers with the same title but of different genders. > That is not the kind of decision I think employees should be deciding. Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general?
ridv 7y ago
I hope the CWA treats them better than they treat the SUNY grad students they represent. All State University of New York graduate students are also represented by CWA. [1] Out of the lowly salary I earned as a grad student, I had to pay dues to them throughout the entire five years I spent in grad school. I never felt like they particularly cared about us or got to see a return on this investment. They made a show of coming by the campus once in a while, especially when elections were happening, but other than that I can't recall a single time where I felt it was beneficial to be part of the CWA. [1] https://cwa1104.com/apprenticeship-program https://cwa1104.com/apprenticeship-program
- nwmcsween 7y ago
  This is the thing with unions they don't care about one persons issues at a workplace but general issues like pay when compared to other companies in the same field. If the company previously had toxic people in high places the people will just adjust to follow union rules while still being toxic.

180 points by lflux 7y ago

quest88 7y ago

I wonder why they need a union. Is something currently not working in their favor?

monadic2 7y ago
Probably management if I were to guess.
- quest88 7y ago
  Lol well there are a lot of compelling guesses but I'd like the article to concretely say why.
eganist 7y ago
I can't tell if there's a trace of sarcasm in the comment, so for the avoidance of doubt, I'll link to a pretty good lay read on issues in the game industry. https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/ https://time.com/5603329/e3-video-game-creators-union/
- quest88 7y ago
  That's the game industry. I want to know about this specific company. The original article doesn't say why.
- quest88 7y ago
  As a side note on the gaming industry: That industry seems notoriously bad so I wonder why people keep joining it. It also seems competitive to get in. So, to me, it seems like people know what they're getting themselves into before joining.
  - dblohm7 7y ago
    > That industry seems notoriously bad so I wonder why people keep joining it. Because kids romanticize it and think that their job will involve playing video games all day.
  - richdougherty 7y ago
    People want to work on computer games for non financial reasons so they'll take lower pay and accept worse conditions. Similar examples are the film or music industries.
  - mattsfrey 7y ago
    Game development is exceptionally fun and engaging as far as software goes, so the supply/demand ratio is much more skewed. I would agree people are likely aware of the worse working conditions and pay etc, but are just passionate about it enough to do it anyway. I was an amateur game developer that always imagined a career in game dev but after learning about the economics of it went with more general commercial software as a career, but I still envy game devs for the work they get to do and their overall satisfaction with that work. --EDIT: It's also worth noting that if you are on the digital content side of game dev like modeling and mapping there's not a ton of alternative options for practicing those skillsets professionally, unlike programming.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    Making games is a lot of people's passion. This inflates the supply of labor for game development, which reduces cost (as well as lowering expectations for stability, work life balance, etc.) It's hard to negotiate for good work life balance and wages, when people are enamored with game development and willing to tolerate crunch time and cyclical labor demand.
- stickfigure 7y ago
  You're probably confusing Glitch (the company that used to be Fog Creek) with Glitch (the video game that led to the creation of Slack). Different company, different industry.
- Grimm1 7y ago
  The game industry treats people horribly and there is obvious collusion to keep wages suppressed I would expect attempts to form unions there. I'm still however not sold on the idea that tech in general needs unions, but am open to the idea that it may be a variable need company to company for certain groups of people. Just don't make me have to join one, because I am fairly convinced it's not in my best personal interest and same for a lot of other tech workers like me.
- pdkl95 7y ago
  In addition to this article, a very good video discussing unions in the game industry that includes an interview with Game Workers Unite and testimonials from people working in the industry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TSB5YQqDiY
wolco 7y ago
Why not join together and bargain as a team? Glitch isn't a startup. It's a 20 year old company with probably rigid rules.
- quest88 7y ago
  Why not doesn't answer why. Do they need to join together because things are bad? Sub-optimal? Good?
  - mplewis 7y ago
    If you don't have C-level salary and ownership, things can always be better.
- manfredo 7y ago
  It is a 20 year old company, but according to what I can find it's still between 11 and 50 employees.
- ughitsaaron 7y ago
  > Why not join together and bargain as a team? "Bargain as a team" is called "collective bargaining" is called a "union". Just avoid the indirection and call the thing by its name.
  - fiter 7y ago
    I believe the commentator that you're replying to was referring to the fact that they just brought in a union with 700,000 other employees[0]. That significantly alters their team. [0] Communications Workers of America (CWA) is the largest communications and media labor union in the United States, representing about 700,000 members in both the private and public sectors (also in Canada and Puerto Rico).
throwaway10018 7y ago
Throwaway account because duh. Note that I am not a current Glitch employee, but am well-connected to Glitch née Fog Creek. Management was basically incredibly incompetent, for a long time, and were so unfair to employees at the company that they felt this was the only option. There is a Tweet stream a couple months ago from someone who left the company who highlighted the amazing degree to which they were unfairly reviewed and unfairly criticized, alongside how much work product they were expected to produce (which was unreasonable). I have enough corroboration to say that the tweet stream as written is fairly unbiased, and that their experience was common. My understanding is the employees felt backed into a corner. I think unions can be very, very valuable, but I think needing one at a small company that took a series A round quite recently speaks more to management failure than anything else. I'm happy that they unionized, because it sounds like they needed to, but I am so fucking disappointed that it was necessary.
- fnbr 7y ago
  Can you link to the tweet stream?
  - throwaway10018 7y ago
    I knew people would ask and I'm trying to find it. I promise to edit this comment or post under it once I do. EDIT: Medium, not Twitter; sorry. https://medium.com/@scientiffic/on-the-aftermath-of-quitting-b778f56a549 https://medium.com/@scientiffic/on-the-aftermath-of-quitting...
- pkaye 7y ago
  I remember Fog Creek used to be a well liked company years back...
- quest88 7y ago
  Thanks for the report, exactly what I was looking for! This is something I wish had been in the article. Even something vague, like "Employees reported they were unhappy with management and the performance evaluation system. The union with CWA will work with management to blah blah blah". Agree that it sounds like a management failure. Thanks!
rideontime 7y ago
Maybe they would just like a union :)
NullInvictus 7y ago
A myth Americans believe is that you only need to form unions when there is an existing problem. That's like wanting medical coverage only after you get sick. You will not have the resources and voice if you wait until a crisis to organize. The employers relationship with unions is only antagonistic because of this waiting until crisis. on a secondary note, there is nothing wrong with living in a democracy and wanting representation in your community. Our work is a part of our community as much as any other space, especially since we spend so much time there and center our lives around it.
- kodablah 7y ago
  > A myth Americans believe is that you only need to form unions when there is an existing problem. I don't think this is true. Rather, they don't buy the myth that unions have no downsides. Therefore you choose not to willingly accept such downsides until necessary. Arguably medical coverage is always necessary and is a poor comparison.
- throwaway894345 7y ago
  I keep an open mind about unions. I hear they work well in many places (usually in Europe, for whatever reason), but many of us from blue collar American backgrounds only have experience with them protecting laggards and creating ridiculously inefficient working restrictions[^1][^2] which (presumably?) drive jobs overseas. I guess my questions for union proponents are: "Why do unions seem to work so poorly in the United States?" and "How do we make sure these proposed software unions don't suffer similarly?". How do we get the good without the bad? [^1]: A particularly egregious example from the factory where my dad works as a maintenance person: they have a machine that cuts cardboard; to service the blade, they need 3 people: one to remove the bolts holding the blade in place, another to remove the blade, and yet another to service it (and then the first two must replace the blade and the bolts, respectively). There must be three distinct people (IIRC because they're from different unions or something similarly silly) by contract (not because removing the bolts or the blade requires special training), which generally involves a lot of waiting for each person to be available--something that could take half an hour often spans multiple days. [^2]: Another particularly egregious example from my father-in-law's IT office (he has since retired): employees generally laze about doing little; they aren't allowed to browse the Internet or play games, but some bring in books and one woman literally sits staring vacantly at her black-screen monitor for hours on end. No idea why electronic idleness is okay, but reading, etc are okay.

Apocryphon 7y ago

My highlights: > 90% of the workers indicated their support for joining CWA and authorized CWA to be their bargaining representative > about half of whom work in the New York City headquarters and half of whom work remotely throughout the country > Employees at major American tech and game companies have grown increasingly active and outspoken about workplace issues, including sexual assault and harassment, ageism, unequal pay, “crunch time” (i.e. long-term overtime and overworking), poor treatment of contract workers, inadequate racial and gender diversity, and lack of transparency and inclusion in decision-making around controversial contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). > “We appreciate that unlike so many employers, the Glitch management team decided to respect the rights of its workforce to choose union representation without fear or coercion." > CWA was founded by telecom workers, and supports media workers through its Newsguild-CWA and NABET-CWA sectors.

m0zg 7y ago
Game studios especially need this. I'm a conservative in most other labor-related things (liberal on social issues), but holy shit the devs are abused by the game studios.
- bennysonething 7y ago
  Completely disagree. They aren't miners working in horrible conditions where that's the only job in town. Game developers are highly talented, skilled individuals. There is a high demand for such people outside the game industry they choose to stay there. I'm a developer in the finance industry. Worked in a few other sectors too. If games industry is harsh, jump ship. Abused? Get real, the working populations outside the western world are abused and with little choice (and a lot of people in the west lower down the food chain). I think it's insulting to to people with limited options no money to lump games devs in with them. Personally speaking, last thing I'd want in software industry is a Union. Graded pay scales that take no account of productivity variability is a sure fire way to kill an industry. We re a privileged bunch as developers.
  - 7y ago

lbotos 7y ago

Here is a question: Why don't we have more smaller unions in America, but instead these GIANT mega unions? I get collective bargaining is better with more numbers, but it feels like there is no way to have a "new" union exist?

chimeracoder 7y ago
> Here is a question: Why don't we have more smaller unions in America, but instead these GIANT mega unions? US labor law differs from European labor law, and it essentially encourages/requires a small number of conglomerate unions, each of which have exclusive representation within a company, rather than a larger number of independent unions which can coexist within a single company.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Sounds like as with our healthcare system and many other major problems in America, the problem isn't purely government vs. industry or liberal vs. conservative, but rather a mess of both.
  - danharaj 7y ago
    Government Vs. Industry and Liberal vs. Conservative are distinctions that serve to obfuscate the true divide in our system: Capitalists vs. everyone else. Capital doesn't care about these distinctions. The difference between the Cabinet and the Boardroom is akin to a room with a curtain in the middle. It is all the same with the large corporate unions. They are designed to be run by those cozy with the ruling class and stifle actual workplace democracy.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      Some of the endorsement antics during the Democratic primaries exposes that, but I'm making a less partisan point: our healthcare system simultaneously includes incomplete or bad private insurance plans, yet U.S. spends a larger amount per citizen for health care than most other developed nations. It's an unholy mess of inefficient bureaucracy and failed private-public relations, rent-seeking, crony capitalism, unhelpful regulations, outdated systems, and scaling issues leading to bloated organizations that pleases nobody.

whoisjuan 7y ago

Ignorant question. But how do union dues work? Is it a percentage of your paycheck or a fixes cost? Also I assume there’s a formation/founding cost. How does that work?

kyoob 7y ago
It's usually a percentage of workers' paychecks, between 1-2% is pretty standard. Founding, organizing, and legal stuff for newly forming unions can be handled by the larger organization (e.g. CWA) using pooled dues from existing unions within that organization.
- sevenf0ur 7y ago
  Losing that much per paycheck with nothing guaranteed in return would chaff me after awhile. I hope it works out for them.
  - einpoklum 7y ago
    If your union is actually _your union_, i.e. yourself and your co-workers, organizing together to do something - then you're not paying to get a "return". You're participating in your own collective effort. Pecuniary union achievements are an added bonus (though a frequent one). Unfortunately, with larger unions, or those with weaker consciousness and mis-perceptions of what a union is supposed to be - there's alienation between the member worker on one hand and the union and its operatives on the other, and then dues payment seems to be something transactional: "What will you get me in exchange for what I pay you?"
  - johnpowell 7y ago
    I was a union HVAC guy for a few years. And one very nice thing was that there were union shops and they went through the union to find employees. So if work dried up at one place the union would take care of getting my unemployment going and then when work came up they would call and say that I was needed elsewhere. This probably wouldn't translate well to software. But it works great if you are installing ducts. Same goes for plumbers and electricians. My sisters first husband was a union electrician. That is why I looked into getting a union gig. I hate job hunting. In the years I did it I worked for five different companies. I didn't have to run around dropping off resumes and doing practice tests. I just got a call from the union and was told where to go to work. And I made significantly more than my non-union counterparts. Easily more than the dues I had to pay.

gadders 7y ago

Interesting development. Glitch used to be Fog Creek, where Joel Spolsky talked of treating developers well (latest hardware, private offices etc) and paying them well. I wonder if the culture has changed and that's why the developers felt the need to create a union. [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-developers-2/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-d...]

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jypepin 7y ago
Also surprised because I thought it was a very small company (less than 50). I'm wondering if it's really useful to unionize for such a small company?
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hinkley 7y ago
Joel talking about the great care they took to build their offices (in a way that I felt was a huge mistake) was sort of the beginning of me realizing that he doesn't get everything right. There's also an uncanny valley effect, where ignoring a problem entirely means that your employees may have needs they aren't aware of, and as soon as you shine a light on it, their job satisfaction is actually lower until you get it right. I think a couple of my bosses understood this intuitively and would invite us to participate in developing solutions. We are much more patient with ourselves than with others.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  What's wrong with how they built their offices, in your opinion?
  - hinkley 7y ago
    There's a lot of crappy office politics that circles around access to daylight. You invariably have a mismatch between Valuable Employees and Valuable deskspace, jockying for position becomes a distraction and having multiple grades of desk just kind of beats the newer employees about the head and shoulders with how little they matter. It is, in a word, fractious. The best solution I've seen for this is to keep most of the windows in public spaces. If I go for water or to the bathroom, I should get daylight. Impromptu meeting spaces and lunch spots: daylight. The thing is, developers say they want daylight at their desk, and then they realize that they can't actually work in natural light (this has gotten better in just the last few years, but I've been watching this happen for 20), and so the people who 'own' the windows end up closing the blinds to work in peace. The worse this ever got, we had the top floor of a building and so many blinds were closed all day that we might as well have rented space in the basement for half the price/ft² So now if I am to get any daylight it is at the sole discretion of someone already on an ego trip? No thank you. Move the desks so that people can see daylight but aren't in daylight. All the windows stay open, your AC bills are a little lower, and the steepness of the pecking order is not quite so brazen.

pje 7y ago

Congratulations!

pmoriarty 7y ago

The recent flowering of union membership in the tech industry really warms my heart and makes me hope that this is the start of a pro-union resurgence nation-wide that reverses the conservative anti-union backlash that has dominated the US for decades. Unfortunately, conservatives have been mostly successful in gaining control of the courts, so expect union-busting measures to be rubber-stamped by them. There is likely to be much conflict between labor and owners.

chrisco255 7y ago
My concern as a libertarian is that unionizing tech will lead to calcification, decline of agility and innovation, and diversity of business structure. There's no question that the U.S. has been more innovative in tech than other countries over the past few decades. That's thanks to an entrepreneurial culture that encourages risk taking. Unions attempt to limit risk to employees. In doing so, they limit the agility of organizations. That is a significant trade-off worth pondering and debating.
- vangelis 7y ago
  Funny, I feel the same way about MBA mills and slash and burn private equity firms.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    And don't forget "let 9 fail to find 1 unicorn" VCs!
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    That's a pretty universal viewpoint. Even the most business-friendly people would be skeptical of someone saying that private equity "warms their heart", or talking about how we need to stop MBA-busting and reverse the "liberal anti-MBA backlash".
- pjc50 7y ago
  We're back to upside and downside risk. If you want "flexibility", you have to offer more. The US west coast startup culture has done OK at giving staff a share of the potential upside. The games industry, on the other hand, is notorious for even successful games resulting in studio closures, and employees exposing themselves to the risks of crunch time being rewarded with layoffs. I know the ideal libertarian corporate structure has a single CEO making a huge salary controlling a vast collection of precariat workers who are paid the bare minimum to avoid them becoming homeless, or slightly less, but this is .. unpopular with everyone else.

baybal2 7y ago

I've been hearing for a long time that there were attempts at making a union at Microsoft back in nineties. Anybody privy to the info how it fared?

ryanmarsh 7y ago

Do unions (specifically this union) promote and standardize levels of craftsmanship or is that still an unsolved problem? I kinda wish proper guilds would become a thing in tech. I feel they could solve both the craftsmanship and workers rights problems but oh well...

godzillabrennus 7y ago

Six months from now we will likely be wishing we had union jobs.

ColonelSanders 7y ago

For a union, it's concerning when some things are more tailored to the whims, edge cases, personal niches of the most vocal, rather than shielding the common denominator of the cooperative from management's business decisions. I'd like to explain what I like, and what I'm concerned about: > Employees at major American tech and game companies have grown increasingly active and outspoken about workplace issues, Very union related, that's what unions are for. > including sexual assault and harassment, Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > ageism, That's vague, but there are protections against this > unequal pay, Not sure what this means, pay between workers of the same level of seniority performing the same responsibilities? Overtime? A lot of things factor into equal pay. A junior employee isn't going to make as much as a 20 year employee. > “crunch time” (i.e. long-term overtime and overworking), Looks right. These are covered in union contracts > poor treatment of contract workers, If they have union membership? Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? > inadequate racial and gender diversity, What does that mean? Inadequate to whom? What makes those characteristics worthy but other characteristics not? I find it very hurtful and insensitive to people who struggle, suffer, overcome odds, from difficult upbringings, but not member of some class or facet. Why reduce the struggle, character, and worth of someone down to those things? Where does this come from? What does this say to your colleagues who don't have these traits? Do they have life easy? Have you walked a mile in their shoes? > and lack of transparency and inclusion in decision-making around controversial contracts with the U.S. Department of Defense and Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). That is not the kind of decision I think employees should be deciding. Though if a larger organization wanted to allow someone to move somewhere else in the org, that seems fair

Apocryphon 7y ago
> Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > That's vague, but there are protections against this > Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? Unions can be an additional safety net/layer of protection/tool against these discriminations and abuses. In a time when HR departments are often derided as existing to protect the company instead of workers, and it often takes either media exposure or self-publishing (as with Susan Fowler) for discrimination against protected classes to be acknowledged, a union could be a place for the discriminated to turn to where HR reps fail. At least then you don't have to hire your own lawyer. > unequal pay, This might be a gender gap criticism meaning unequal pay between workers with the same title but of different genders. > That is not the kind of decision I think employees should be deciding. Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general?

ridv 7y ago

I hope the CWA treats them better than they treat the SUNY grad students they represent. All State University of New York graduate students are also represented by CWA. [1] Out of the lowly salary I earned as a grad student, I had to pay dues to them throughout the entire five years I spent in grad school. I never felt like they particularly cared about us or got to see a return on this investment. They made a show of coming by the campus once in a while, especially when elections were happening, but other than that I can't recall a single time where I felt it was beneficial to be part of the CWA. [1] https://cwa1104.com/apprenticeship-program https://cwa1104.com/apprenticeship-program

nwmcsween 7y ago
This is the thing with unions they don't care about one persons issues at a workplace but general issues like pay when compared to other companies in the same field. If the company previously had toxic people in high places the people will just adjust to follow union rules while still being toxic.