22 ms·

Surge of virus misinformation stumps Facebook and Twitter

114 points by adrian_mrd 7y ago

davidw 7y ago
I'm about ready to throttle the next "it's just a flu" person I read. It's real; it's serious and we should be taking rational actions to mitigate and contain it. Don't go to events, avoid restaurants, bars, gyms. Work from home if you can. Have a supply of food for home. In some of the worst hit areas of Italy, it looks like they're already triaging people or considering it.
- josefresco 7y ago
  I'm not old, I don't look sick, or act sick but I have an autoimmune disease and take immunosuppressant medications. If one more person tells me not to freak out, I too will throttle them.
  - DailyHN 7y ago
    What do you mean by "throttle"? Edit: What actions can we take to reduce the spread of this misinformation effectively?
    - metanoia 7y ago
      throttle (v.): (1) to compress the throat of; choke (2) to kill by such action
      - DailyHN 7y ago
        So how can someone do that on a platform such as Twitter? Edit: I did expect a serious response to this from someone that might know more about effectively delivering feedback to the algorithms that display this content. Frankly, it seems like the nonchalant responses(to say the least) are contributors to why this misinformation continues to proliferate.
        davidw 7y ago
        It's not actually meant literally. BTW, some internet lore: "The social dynamics of the net are a direct consequence of the fact that nobody has yet developed a Remote Strangulation Protocol." -- Larry Wall
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        (Fictional) counterpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNSnJbjdws&t=86 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNSnJbjdws&t=86
        belltaco 7y ago
        hyperbole: noun exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
        egeozcan 7y ago
        You can unfollow people or smash their devices with an axe[1], or anything in between. It's up to your imagination. [1]: https://www.orneryboy.com/comic?sort=29 https://www.orneryboy.com/comic?sort=29
        josefresco 7y ago
        My interactions have been in person. Even friends and family who know I have a compromised immune system seem to "forget in the moment". It's baffling.
      - DailyHN 7y ago
        What about using "block" and "spam" reporting? Are enough people using these features?
        josefresco 7y ago
        We've gotten off track. I was referring to my interactions with people IRL and the joke about "throttling" was just playing of the parent comment. I'm not actually considering violence, just sick of people telling me "it's no big deal" when for me, it's a VERY big deal.
        DailyHN 7y ago
        IRL makes sense. My [clearly wrong] assumption was that we're referring to online discussions.
        hef19898 7y ago
        Understandably, as you are in a risky position. But that doesn't mean everybody else is to. Nor does it mean that panic will do any good.
        DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
        I think relying on the good will of the masses as volunteers is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. The opposing side does disinformation for profit[1] and has a budget for it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22526530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22526530
    - josefresco 7y ago
      I think people understand the basics of COVID-19 well. What they don't realize are how many "sick" people are around them. See also the health care debate over "pre-existing" conditions. Until you have one, or have a family member with one, you're pretty clueless. Autoimmune diseases are under diagnosed, but some estimates say it's more than 1% of the population. That's roughly 3.3 million Americans that may be taking medications that reduce the efficacy of their immune system. TLDR; Don't assume everyone is healthy / carries the same risk, even if they look healthy. Edit: Fixed my math.
      - dobleboble 7y ago
        US population is about 330,000,000 so 1% would be 3.3 million, not 30 million https://www.census.gov/popclock/ https://www.census.gov/popclock/
        josefresco 7y ago
        Arg! My bad, that's what I get for commenting while pissed off. I'll edit the original post but thanks Internet stranger!
      - Seenso 7y ago
        > TLDR; Don't assume everyone is healthy / carries the same risk, even if they look healthy. Also, apparently serious illness can increase the chance of miscarriage in pregnant women: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/pregnancy-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/pr...: > Pregnancy loss, including miscarriage and stillbirth, has been observed in cases of infection with other related coronaviruses [SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV] during pregnancy. High fevers during the first trimester of pregnancy can increase the risk of certain birth defects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203382/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203382/: > Conclusions. The observed birth depressions were consistent with pandemic influenza causing first trimester miscarriages in ∼1 in 10 pregnant women.
      - tomp 7y ago
        I don't understand why we should all self-isolate just because some people are immunocompromised... Surely x% of people staying home/not working is better than 100% of people staying home/not working?!
    - rabidrat 7y ago
      Wash your hands, don't touch your face. But seriously, I wonder if we can take the lessons from mitigating a biological viral epidemic, and apply them to mitigating an informational viral epidemic.
      - DailyHN 7y ago
        Great thought. At first, you made me think about how a quarantine/isolation plan could be implemented on the internet. Something that is controlled mostly by a limited number of entities. However, what if there was a habit for individuals to "feel clean" after exposure to misinformation? Something that could be accomplished on a personal level. Like washing your hands or brushing your teeth. Something where afterward you feel like you contributed to both the community and your own wellbeing.
  - deegles 7y ago
    Be sure to wash your hands after!
  - daemonk 7y ago
    Off topic here. But what's kinda interesting about covid19 is that a significant amount of the fatalities appears to be associated with cytokine storm syndrome. Suggesting that the effects of the infection might not kill you, but your body's immune system overreacts and kills you.
- teshier-A 7y ago
  How about "Follow official recommendations" instead ? In France Macron made a show of going to the theatre urging people to live normally (within the new regulations, e.g. no mass gathering above a certain size). Advising people to stockpile food this early is sure to make the situation even worse.
  - egeozcan 7y ago
    These kinds of stunts are happening everywhere, with governments left and right oriented. My parents remember how everyone was panicked because of the Chernobyl disaster in Turkey, how Cahit Aral (then Turkey's industry and trade minister) drank tea in front of the cameras to prove the Black Sea region, which produces most of Turkey's tea, wasn't contaminated, and how Turgut Özal (then Turkey's PM) commented that radioactive tea tasted better (huge sigh). Funny, it occurs that the little increase of radiation in that region really had no significant effect on cancer rates, but those people didn't know that. I still can't explain why government officials keep doing such stunts. Maybe there should be a Wikipedia list for these.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      >These kinds of stunts are happening everywhere, with governments left and right oriented. It reveals how leaders think of their constituents - they are not approaching this from the perspective of informing the public on how to best deal with this real but not world-ending danger, instead they are thinking of it in terms of "stopping the cattle from stampeding."
      - bilbo0s 7y ago
        If the danger is real but not world ending, then stopping the cattle from stampeding is the appropriate priority. Because the cattle stampeding can actually be world ending. Particularly for the trampled cattle who were likely in little danger from the start.
        lliamander 7y ago
- guscost 7y ago
  No thanks. I don’t stay at home worrying about tractor-trailers or terrorists, either.
  - davidw 7y ago
    This is exactly the mentality that has lead to the virus spreading like wildfire in parts of Italy. This thread discusses the health care system in one part of Italy being stretched to the breaking point: https://twitter.com/silviast9/status/1236933818654896129 https://twitter.com/silviast9/status/1236933818654896129
    - jvagner 7y ago
      SF BART was just as full today as it usually is. Headlines might be that big tech companies are telling staff to WFH and paying their hourly employees during this, but most people at most jobs are going about their lives per the usual, because everyone's locked into it. So far.
    - thrwaway69 7y ago
      No, it's because of the asymptomatic nature of it and carelessness by the officials. Without supply and strong backend infrastructure, panic will only cause situation to worsen as people crowd up to get supplies, find them out of stock and blow themselves up over it. Panic will also cause a shortage of human resources which are required to handle the situation. People will line up over small issues and displace those who truly need the help like what happened with masks and hand sanitizers. Hospitals won't be able to keep up. The staff will have other problems to deal with as their toddlers or family members are in panic at home due to schools, offices etc everything shutting down. Mortality rate for people under 40s is not high. When you consider the risk factor, you would be more likely to die from using escalators and stairs over a period of 1-2 year. Stop overblowing/underblowing the thing.
      - davidw 7y ago
        You're right that we should not panic, but start doing the easy things right away to slow the spread.
- beamatronic 7y ago
  What is a realistic typical mild/moderate case? You get a fever for one week similar to the flu? Or is it a longer fever? I haven’t been able to find this information. Do you just isolate yourself and manage it with Ibuprofen and Gatorade? And then wait a week or two before going back to work?
  - officialjunk 7y ago
    survivors also experience lasting lung issues. avoid it if you can
    - dobleboble 7y ago
      Do you have a reference for that? I have seen the claim posted multiple times, but never any proof.
      - officialjunk 7y ago
        is it worth waiting for definitive proof? there are plenty of CT scans out there showing damage. i am not aware of a nicely written trusted source for it. at this point it's not an unreasonable model to assume, and avoid it. if everyone wants to avoid this, and changes behavior now, we will all be safer.
        ShorsHammer 7y ago
        > is it worth waiting for definitive proof? If you are making the claim then yes.
        officialjunk 7y ago
        in terms of risk it's not an unreasonable thing to assume, waiting is more risk.
      - the-pigeon 7y ago
        I don't believe there's any studies on that. The virus was only discovered at the beginning of December. Most likely they are referencing this study showing 40% of people who had SARS had long lasting effects https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/415378 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... While COVID-19 mutated from SARS it has a number of characteristics that are different so I don't think it's reasonably to assume it'd be the same. Could be worst or better.
- leggomylibro 7y ago
  Italy has basically suspended its citizens' civil liberties across huge swaths of the country. That does not seem like anything close to a proportional response, and I am very troubled by how okay everyone seems to be with the curtailing of civil liberties. Remember, the 1st amendment guarantees the right of free association and assembly in the United States. Even though I'm voluntarily limiting my exposure to at-risk populations, I will not comply if someone tries to forbid me from moving around; that would set an awful precedent.
  - empath75 7y ago
    I think you might want to recalibrate your idea of how dangerous this virus is.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      The virus is dangerous, but so is a government with unlimited power. This is the complicated and contradictory world we live in...
      - Angostura 7y ago
        Bottom line: You have come into contact with coronavirus - the government asks you to self-isolate at home. Do you? Or do you go off to your favourite bar?
        whatshisface 7y ago
        You do, but you're talking about self-isolating. Here's the scenario we're discussing: the US decides that Assange has Diphtheria and tells him to stay home and not talk to anybody. Does he? Cambodia decides that the opposition party conference is full of dirty politicians and cancels it. Do they still try to meet? In the first case, Assange would be protected by due process and a public hearing (that is the present US law for quarantine orders). In the second case, there might be a problem. You do not want the government using an emergency as an excuse to grab unlimited and unchecked power.
- 7777fps 7y ago
  Also a lot of people saying "It's just a flu" have clearly never actually had flu, they've had bad colds which they assume are the flu. The flu deadly, and this is worse.
  - Aeolun 7y ago
    The flu is a fucking pain, but to call it deadly goes a bit too far.
    - macintux 7y ago
      Well, it kills thousands of people every year. How many more thousands before you consider it deadly?
      - Aeolun 7y ago
        Cars kill tens of thousands of people every year, but we don’t call them deadly cars do we? Cancer is deadly, people with the flu recover just fine in 99.9% of all cases.
        macintux 7y ago
        I’m sure I could find references to distracted driving being deadly. 99.9% of the time that doesn’t kill either. Influenza, at least when paired with pneumonia as the CDC does for reporting purposes, ranks in the top 10 killers.
    - kevingadd 7y ago
      The flu literally kills people which is part of why everyone is strongly encouraged to get a yearly flu shot: To create herd immunity and protect people who might die if they catch it.
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  The average age of coronavirus victims in Italy is 81. The average life expectancy is 82. Before "throttling" the next person that says it, have you considered these people's opinion that this will not be anywhere near as bad as a regular flu season and far from a severe one which is over 600,000 deaths globally? There's a good chance corona is displacing a lot of the deaths that would have occurred anyway due to the flu. As far as things are going, the infections and death toll is nowhere near what flu has already inflicted on the global population in the last 4 months. Why are people not taking the same precautions for the flu in the last few years? Why do people suddenly care so much? It's very much a media driven situation. SARS in 2002 had no cases anywhere after two years of outbreaks. Something to think about. History can look back on these comments here and judge.
  - erentz 7y ago
    > The average age of coronavirus victims in Italy is 81. The average life expectancy is 82. A proper comparison would be the average life expectancy of someone who is 81. The comparison you make gives the impression on average these people were all going to die next year which isn’t the case. E.g. in 1994 in the US the life expectancy of an 80 y/o male was 7 years, female 9 years. [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7565998/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7565998/
    - achenatx 7y ago
      you can use this calculator to look at life expectancy at any age for most countries. For italy life expectancy at 80 is 89. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-age https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-...
    - ShorsHammer 7y ago
      Both of us are using averages here, do you not see the flaw in this logic?
  - trophycase 7y ago
    The death rate of 3.4% as claimed is massive. Some people look at that and think it's small, but for something so contagious that's huge. If it spreads on a pandemic scale someone you know will die from it, almost guaranteed. You just can't say that about the flu.
- hef19898 7y ago
  I was with you. Until the last paragraph, that turned to rumour spreading and that everything is so much worse. No idea where you have the triage idea from.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    From the news out of Italy: https://www.timesofisrael.com/italy-to-quarantine-over-10-million-in-coronavirus-hit-north/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/italy-to-quarantine-over-10-mi... Some hospitals have run out of IC beds already, many more to follow this week. Whole wards have been converted.
    - hef19898 7y ago
      Well, at least it's a newspaper now. Still not Italian nor in Europe, but we left Twitter and YouTube behind.
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        I looked for an English language article on the assumption that you don't read Italian.
        hef19898 7y ago
        Appreciated, still there are better sources out there than an Israelian news outlet. BBC or English language versions of Italian sites.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        I think if that's your standard then you should probably do your own homework, I'm not in your pay.
- achenatx 7y ago
  yes but how far do we go? Shut down all schools? all flights stopped? All businesses closed? mandatory stay at home quarantines with food drops done by the govt?
  - cycrutchfield 7y ago
    The alternative is your health system gets overwhelmed and you have a 5% fatality rate. So, which do you pick?
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Neither nor. Respect hygiene, avoid masses and generally a lot of contact with people. Don't panic. And don't take medical equipment away from the people needing it. Because that just makes you a bad person. not you personally, but you get the idea.
- austincheney 7y ago
  > It's real; it's serious and we should be taking rational actions to mitigate and contain it. How does that differ from a widespread flu outbreak? All this says to me is that you don't take the flu seriously.
  - lliamander 7y ago
    Estimates for the COVID-19 mortality rate put it anywhere between 4 and 20 times higher than a severe flu. Hospitalization rates are even higher. There are no vaccines, and no therapies. What else do you need to know that it is serious?
    - austincheney 7y ago
      Why would you think I believe this isn't serious? The medical advise does not say to avoid public places, avoid travel, or to panic. Inventing medical guidance not provided by the experts and panicking will not make you safer. https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
      - lliamander 7y ago
        OK, fair enough. You didn't deny it was serious. You did ask how this compares to a flu, and I think I addressed that in a number of ways. Worth noting that the stringent measures taken by Hong Kong to curtail the coronavirus have also helped reduce the spread of the flu: https://www.ft.com/content/ad7ae6b4-5eab-11ea-b0ab-339c2307bcd4 https://www.ft.com/content/ad7ae6b4-5eab-11ea-b0ab-339c2307b...
        austincheney 7y ago
        I accept your back-peddle, but that doesn't answer my question. I am honestly curious. I have noticed that when people are emotionally inflamed about a subject they tend to lose objectivity, gravitate towards like-minded opinions, and selectively pick at certain data. When that selectivity demands data that isn't available the gap will be filled with an assumption. On Reddit, which does not have a limitation upon negative vote totals, you can fine tune this behavior to study group dynamics, which is reflected in the comments.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  You'll have to line up and take a number. Sick and tired of people downplaying this. That's what really will make this thing worse. Much worse. Italy is like a war zone right now. I read some first person accounts from health care providers there that read like they are straight from the days of the plague.
- FriendlyNormie 7y ago
  Do you “throttle” people you disagree with often? You’re wrong, by the way. It’s essentially just a flu. The 0.2% of healthy people who die from it aren’t worth worrying about at all. It’s natural for people to occasionally randomly die from infections of all kinds. A lot of things in this world are being actively ruined by people like you who are spreading panic for no reason. Perhaps you should be “throttled” for this? I’m not sure why so many of you have suddenly decided to take the worst paranoid psychosis traits of Alex Jones, somehow combine those with the worst traits of being an NPC sheep who believes everything the mainstream media tells you, and then make that your identity. Go to events. Go to restaurants, bars, gyms. Relax and enjoy your life. Ignore lunatics who say otherwise.
  - sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
    It's a figure of speech, he's not being literal.
- Mountain_Skies 7y ago
  I work from home and our company has suspended all "non-essential" travel. The head of our division however has won an award so we are all required to go to the award ceremony in the middle of the metro. It's an industry award so people from all over the country are flying in for the event. I wasn't invited at first, too low level, but now that the big wigs have bowed out, the low level folks are being forced to go so he'll have a cheering section when he gets his award. Somehow this isn't covered by the travel ban. Normally I'd take the subway into the city but will probably drive and pay $40 for parking instead to avoid being in close proximity with so many. That won't help during the awards ceremony. There have already been confirmed cases in the metro and some schools have shutdown so while still unlikely, the chance of infection is far from zero. It seems silly to quit over this with things being in the risk limbo they are now but it also seem reckless to require employees to show up to watch you get an award that could be easily mailed to you. Wonder if I can get workman's compensation if I get sick.
  - johntash 7y ago
    You could not go, and say you haven't been feeling well lately. "I don't know if I have the corona virus, but I don't want to spread it just in case"
  - macintux 7y ago
    Share your story anonymously with the local media. They’d love that.
buboard 7y ago
I don't even know why facebook could possibly be considered useful for news, considering the high density of plain idiots who post. Twitter is quite better , because you can unfollow idiots; they aren't forced upon you by social convention by being real life friends. But i d like to extoll the virtues of Reddit. Communities like r/china_flu or r/covid19 are moderated, contain a reasonable amount of rumors and early information that a moderately smart person can benefit from, and the density of information is quite high. Makes one wonder why those facebooks and instagrams get all the advertising money ...
- jfk13 7y ago
  As you said, > Communities like r/china_flu or r/covid19 are moderated If the moderation is any good, it should keep most advertising out. So it gets spent somewhere else.
- troyvit 7y ago
  Seriously. At this point I'm ready to accept that the world is what we made it. If that means we kill ourselves because we're too daft to read social media critically then as a species we get what we deserve. There's a cute, loose correlation between internet access: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage#/media/File:InternetPenetrationWorldMap.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage#/media/F... and covid spread: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/locations-confirmed-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/locations-confirme...
- SuoDuanDao 7y ago
  In theory, we know the people who post on Facebook and assess their credibility personally. Unfortunately, it's difficult to assess information even from people we know personally when we only see written statements, many of which are copied from elsewhere.
notacoward 7y ago
It's worth noting that finding that delicate balance between suppressing false information and preserving freedom of speech (plus privacy) still requires a lot of human attention. At the same time, many thousands of workers at Facebook, Twitter, and just about every other major service are adjusting to working from home (in Facebook's case having to overcome what's often a severe addiction to in-person interaction). Plus a good many know somebody who's affected and might not be at 100% effectiveness due to anxiety. So response might be a bit attenuated, and even before that it was always easy for NYT reporters to cherry-pick examples from the company they consider a threat to their own livelihoods. Should these companies do better? Of course. Is it realistic to expect that they'll do a lot better than more traditional sources, including NYT itself? Of course not.
forkLding 7y ago
Theres a huge influx of virus misinformation in China itself, not just Taiwan, worth noting. See: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n05/wang-xiuying/the-word-from-wuhan https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n05/wang-xiuying/the-wor...
decebalus1 7y ago
The biggest problem is that this information compounds with the reality on the ground (for example the stringent test requirements in King county - symptomatic patients being turned away from testing) which further breeds mistrust in the government, panic and susceptibility to any explanation which makes sense.
- makomk 7y ago
  This is kind of the problem. Tbe symptoms are basically the same as flu and many other things at least in mild cases, pretty much nowhere is testing all patients who have them, and the reaction of medical professionals to the idea that they should tends to involve words like "dangerous" and "irresponsible". But the mainstream media, including publications like the Times, fed the idea that not aggressively testing was basically asking for an epidemic, tied it to powerful partisan narratives, and now there's no going back.
  - decebalus1 7y ago
    > Tbe symptoms are basically the same as flu there are some nuances to that and the symptoms are not basically the same. One of the MSFT employees who ended up testing positive was initially turned away from testing at the hospital as there was no travel abroad involved. She/he self-quarantined and ended up being tested by the 'Seattle Flu Study' which came up positive. A lot of reactions to that were along the lines of 'well, if the result is the same (you need to self-isolate, same treatment as the flu) why is it useful to know if you have the novel virus?'. This is bad, IMO. It sends the message that there's some entity who wants the numbers to stay low via denying testing, while at the same time sending people on their way thinking 'it's not serious' who would then get back to their daily routine which would infect others. As a King county resident looking at what's happening in Italy, I have this constant anxiety that this is only going to get worse. Coupled with the amount of bullcrap thrown around on Facebook, I'm worried that some people who were on the edge prior to this outbreak would snap. There's a Facebook group full of preppers (because of the Seattle big earthquake thing) which completely blew up with this outbreak. I'm talking people stocking up on ammo to ensure nobody steals their stash.
anigbrowl 7y ago
This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/ I've spent a lot of time in recent years warning about disinformation and the value of flagging or deplatforming bad actors who exploit the valuable principle of free speech to deliberately make others worse off. Free speech is good, but the economics of information distribution often end up giving free reach to purveyors of information with negative truth value.
- vkou 7y ago
  In the marketplace of ideas, truth will always triumph against lies. We don't really have any reason[1] to believe that this will actually be the case, but we need to have absolute, unquestioning conviction in this axiom, lest we go to, ah, bad places. [1] The observable triumph of this axiom is all the proof that is necessary for it.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Assuming your conclusions as your premise is known as circular reasoning. There's abundant evidence to the contrary for your claim; lies are documented to spread faster than truth, and while truth generally wins out over the long run (because environmental facts have a way of asserting themselves over mere beliefs), accumulated false beliefs can dominate long enough to be disastrous. The problem with the whole 'marketplace of ideas' schtick is that it ignores the feedback loop which makes it more profitable to invest in lies so you can make money investing in lies. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146
- whatshisface 7y ago
  I'm not on board with the idea of distinguishing between speech and "reach." Forcing everybody to exercise their free speech in isolated 3'x3' cells would be functionally identical to silencing them, but you could use this same distinction to argue that you were only ensuring that they didn't have a platform. One of the purposes of free speech is to make it possible to say things about authorities that holds them accountable and makes them uncomfortable. If the authorities had the ability to limit your "reach," they would use it to silence you in exactly the same way and to the exact same end as if they could silence your "free speech."
partiallypro 7y ago
This isn't just a Facebook/Twitter thing. A person on MSNBC just said that 20% of the US will die from this virus. Why would you say that? No stat backs that up.
- thenayr 7y ago
  When did this happen? Seems unlikely they actually said that.
- clarry 7y ago
  Well let me think of something. Maybe they know something about the virus and what happens when it mutates, comes back, and reinfects you? (Or maybe someone who thinks the know something told 'em that.) I mean I know nothing so that's just a wild guess, but I think it is equally naive to think that looking at the current stats is enough to extrapolate and say anything and everything that needs to be said.
  - partiallypro 7y ago
    Or they don't know what they are talking about and have an agenda.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Italy's current stats show 463 deaths, 724 recoveries. http://web.archive.org/web/20200309190730/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_coronavirus_outbreak_by_country_and_territory http://web.archive.org/web/20200309190730/https://en.m.wikip... (archive.org to show status as of my comment) (WHO's SITREP 49 shows 366 deaths, doesn't list recoveries: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200309-sitrep-49-covid-19.pdf https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situati...) The raw CFR represented is quite high. Whether that represents a virulent strain or insufficient monitoring (I suspect the latter) isn't clear.
  - partiallypro 7y ago
    On the contrary the death rate in Germany is almost 0%. The median age for those that have passed in Italy is ~81. Most of the US deaths currently were from an end-of-life care center. A massive percentage of the deaths in China are from the original province. I'm not saying this isn't an issue, and we should especially look out for our elderly, but the stats simply aren't there to claim a 20% death rate. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html
mech1234 7y ago
The most interesting bit of misinformation that I've seen develop is the claim that N95 masks do not help when you are in public, despite the fact that they factually do help. The chain of events: 1. Concerns arise that respirator inventories will be depleted, leaving few or none available for medical personel. Media outlets spread this news. 2a. Thorough and factual news outlets spread the news that respirators have some effectiveness but are not a silver bullet. They may be used among other preventative measures. They talk about the differences between levels of effectiveness of dust masks and respirators. 2b. Sloppy outlets, and the ones more interested in helping the greater good (preventing hording), start lying, claiming that the dust masks do not work and respirators do not work. They often conflate the two. They go to the effort to shame hoarders and praise other people who practice washing and sanitizing hands, not touching your face, etc. It's been fun and terrifying to watch. News outlets do not have an interest in giving a nuanced message. They are willing to lie if they think it helps. It's a good case study of when you should explicitly not trust a claim made by the media. Meanwhile, I have a stack of 20 N95 respirators I bought for woodworking a year ago that I've been offering to friends and family. I've had no takers yet.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jbob2000 7y ago
  Here's why masks are useless: You are going to take your mask off with your dirty hands. You're going to wear your mask dutifully while outside, then you're going to walk inside your house and the first thing you will do is take your mask off - with your dirty hands. There are so many gotchas with wearing masks that it's best to just leave them for the people who are closest to the crisis. They're the ones with the greatest need and they have the training to make them effective. And besides... the coronavirus is not airborne, you need to be hit with a droplet from an infected person's cough or sneeze. There's such a small chance of that happening while you're out-and-about that it's not worth it to wear these things. The real solution is to wash your hands because that's the main vector of infection.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
haunter 7y ago
otoh you have people saying 150 million people will die? Is that better?
neonate 7y ago
https://archive.md/3GPHv https://archive.md/3GPHv
clumsysmurf 7y ago
It certainly is not helping Vice President Mike Pence is requiring government health officials and scientists at CDC to coordinate all public health information through him for vetting and possibly censoring. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronaviru...
- lliamander 7y ago
  "We should clamp down on the spread of misinformation!" ... "Oh no, we're being censored!"
  - davidw 7y ago
    Scientists and experts - the competent career people in any admin - should be speaking freely and directly, not running their communications through Mike Pence/politicians.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      To see Dr. Fauci standing next to Trump and saying he's not being muzzled, then describing a textbook case of what muzzling would be. Cringeworthy.
    - Consultant32452 7y ago
      Competent career people say stupid things like don't buy up all the masks because we'll run out if you do. The population's obvious reaction was to buy all the masks. People like that, who are objective/scientific/facts minded should be kept mostly out of the spotlight, not allowed to speak off a script approved by someone who understands psychology, economics, and politics.
    - admiral33 7y ago
      That's exactly what OP's sarcasm is implying.
      - 7y ago
Havoc 7y ago
Well at least they are trying for a change so that's refreshing
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
twright 7y ago
This feels like the ultimate outcome of both companies' lax moderation policies. Ironic that about a year ago there were several articles about how Facebook will suppress misleading anit-vax content but will not remove it [1]. I imagine a lot of managers saying "let's just treat this virus misinfo. the same way." [1]: https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-anti-vaccine-crack-down/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-anti-vaccine-crack-down...
FriendlyNormie 7y ago
Everyone who spreads panic on HN during this time should have their username logged so they can be permanently shadowbanned later when it becomes clear that mass casualties aren’t happening. Everyone who upvoted panic comments should also be shadowbanned from voting.
- kevingadd 7y ago
  https://www.google.com/search?q=italy+coronavirus https://www.google.com/search?q=italy+coronavirus > Italy is extending its coronavirus quarantine measures, which include a ban on public gatherings, to the entire country. > Italy's coronavirus death toll jumped on Monday by 97 to 463. It is the worst-hit country after China. > The number of confirmed infections also increased to 9,172, up from 7,375 on Sunday, official figures show.
  - FriendlyNormie 7y ago
    Add this username to the list.
    - cringefest 7y ago
      I know you won't care, least of all because I don't maintain an account here anymore, but I have come to pretty much detest seeing your username in any thread. That's a first, to remember an HN handle for such repeatedly crappy content. could you at least be less of a jackass and articulate yourself? are you denying (1) current numbers (2) that the existing trends that are being followed so far will stop holding true (3) that old people count as people? Because otherwise I (and likely everyone else) have no damn idea where you're coming from.
  - strbean 7y ago
    Upvoted you just so I get shadowbanned from upvoting in the future.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
christkv 7y ago
If everyone wore even cheap surgical masks coughs would be coughs by the mask reducing spread even by nonsymptomatic people. Think of it like reducing the effective range of infection to a couple of cm instead of maybe a meter. They don't have to be n95 or better to help reduce r0
- lliamander 7y ago
  Just wear a simple surgical mask regardless of whether you are sick. People avoid you like the plague (reducing the chance that they will spread anything to you).
zamalek 7y ago
It could be exactly the same thing as "forward this email to at least 20 people and Bill Gates will give you a million dollars," or "Facebook is checking for account activity, share this." It's not necessarily malicious intent, but regardless of whether it is, it is truly idiotic; just like the above examples.
tu7001 7y ago
I think its okay,if I want gossips, or cats, I'm going to social media, for information, Reuters, WSJ, etc.
tmaly 7y ago
I am getting a ton of messages from friends that seem to be in a panic. I am no expert, and I don’t have answers. I did read about a simulation called Operation Dark Winter that was done years back. One of the conclusions was that it was incredibly difficult to get correct information out to the public. This was before mobile phones and social media were common. There is definitely a higher noise ratio out there. I don’t know how to solve this problem. My governor tweets out that they have these meetings, but he provides no detail. I think giving more detail would help comfort people. Perhaps it they would not flock to unreliable sources online if they had more details.

114 points by adrian_mrd 7y ago

I'm about ready to throttle the next "it's just a flu" person I read. It's real; it's serious and we should be taking rational actions to mitigate and contain it. Don't go to events, avoid restaurants, bars, gyms. Work from home if you can. Have a supply of food for home. In some of the worst hit areas of Italy, it looks like they're already triaging people or considering it.

josefresco 7y ago
I'm not old, I don't look sick, or act sick but I have an autoimmune disease and take immunosuppressant medications. If one more person tells me not to freak out, I too will throttle them.
- DailyHN 7y ago
  What do you mean by "throttle"? Edit: What actions can we take to reduce the spread of this misinformation effectively?
  - metanoia 7y ago
    throttle (v.): (1) to compress the throat of; choke (2) to kill by such action
    - DailyHN 7y ago
      So how can someone do that on a platform such as Twitter? Edit: I did expect a serious response to this from someone that might know more about effectively delivering feedback to the algorithms that display this content. Frankly, it seems like the nonchalant responses(to say the least) are contributors to why this misinformation continues to proliferate.
      - davidw 7y ago
        It's not actually meant literally. BTW, some internet lore: "The social dynamics of the net are a direct consequence of the fact that nobody has yet developed a Remote Strangulation Protocol." -- Larry Wall
        thaumasiotes 7y ago
        (Fictional) counterpoint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNSnJbjdws&t=86 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnNSnJbjdws&t=86
      - belltaco 7y ago
        hyperbole: noun exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
      - egeozcan 7y ago
        You can unfollow people or smash their devices with an axe[1], or anything in between. It's up to your imagination. [1]: https://www.orneryboy.com/comic?sort=29 https://www.orneryboy.com/comic?sort=29
      - josefresco 7y ago
        My interactions have been in person. Even friends and family who know I have a compromised immune system seem to "forget in the moment". It's baffling.
    - DailyHN 7y ago
      What about using "block" and "spam" reporting? Are enough people using these features?
      - josefresco 7y ago
        We've gotten off track. I was referring to my interactions with people IRL and the joke about "throttling" was just playing of the parent comment. I'm not actually considering violence, just sick of people telling me "it's no big deal" when for me, it's a VERY big deal.
        DailyHN 7y ago
        IRL makes sense. My [clearly wrong] assumption was that we're referring to online discussions.
        hef19898 7y ago
        Understandably, as you are in a risky position. But that doesn't mean everybody else is to. Nor does it mean that panic will do any good.
      - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
        I think relying on the good will of the masses as volunteers is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. The opposing side does disinformation for profit[1] and has a budget for it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22526530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22526530
  - josefresco 7y ago
    I think people understand the basics of COVID-19 well. What they don't realize are how many "sick" people are around them. See also the health care debate over "pre-existing" conditions. Until you have one, or have a family member with one, you're pretty clueless. Autoimmune diseases are under diagnosed, but some estimates say it's more than 1% of the population. That's roughly 3.3 million Americans that may be taking medications that reduce the efficacy of their immune system. TLDR; Don't assume everyone is healthy / carries the same risk, even if they look healthy. Edit: Fixed my math.
    - dobleboble 7y ago
      US population is about 330,000,000 so 1% would be 3.3 million, not 30 million https://www.census.gov/popclock/ https://www.census.gov/popclock/
      - josefresco 7y ago
        Arg! My bad, that's what I get for commenting while pissed off. I'll edit the original post but thanks Internet stranger!
    - Seenso 7y ago
      > TLDR; Don't assume everyone is healthy / carries the same risk, even if they look healthy. Also, apparently serious illness can increase the chance of miscarriage in pregnant women: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/pregnancy-faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/pr...: > Pregnancy loss, including miscarriage and stillbirth, has been observed in cases of infection with other related coronaviruses [SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV] during pregnancy. High fevers during the first trimester of pregnancy can increase the risk of certain birth defects. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203382/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3203382/: > Conclusions. The observed birth depressions were consistent with pandemic influenza causing first trimester miscarriages in ∼1 in 10 pregnant women.
    - tomp 7y ago
      I don't understand why we should all self-isolate just because some people are immunocompromised... Surely x% of people staying home/not working is better than 100% of people staying home/not working?!
  - rabidrat 7y ago
    Wash your hands, don't touch your face. But seriously, I wonder if we can take the lessons from mitigating a biological viral epidemic, and apply them to mitigating an informational viral epidemic.
    - DailyHN 7y ago
      Great thought. At first, you made me think about how a quarantine/isolation plan could be implemented on the internet. Something that is controlled mostly by a limited number of entities. However, what if there was a habit for individuals to "feel clean" after exposure to misinformation? Something that could be accomplished on a personal level. Like washing your hands or brushing your teeth. Something where afterward you feel like you contributed to both the community and your own wellbeing.
- deegles 7y ago
  Be sure to wash your hands after!
- daemonk 7y ago
  Off topic here. But what's kinda interesting about covid19 is that a significant amount of the fatalities appears to be associated with cytokine storm syndrome. Suggesting that the effects of the infection might not kill you, but your body's immune system overreacts and kills you.
teshier-A 7y ago
How about "Follow official recommendations" instead ? In France Macron made a show of going to the theatre urging people to live normally (within the new regulations, e.g. no mass gathering above a certain size). Advising people to stockpile food this early is sure to make the situation even worse.
- egeozcan 7y ago
  These kinds of stunts are happening everywhere, with governments left and right oriented. My parents remember how everyone was panicked because of the Chernobyl disaster in Turkey, how Cahit Aral (then Turkey's industry and trade minister) drank tea in front of the cameras to prove the Black Sea region, which produces most of Turkey's tea, wasn't contaminated, and how Turgut Özal (then Turkey's PM) commented that radioactive tea tasted better (huge sigh). Funny, it occurs that the little increase of radiation in that region really had no significant effect on cancer rates, but those people didn't know that. I still can't explain why government officials keep doing such stunts. Maybe there should be a Wikipedia list for these.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    >These kinds of stunts are happening everywhere, with governments left and right oriented. It reveals how leaders think of their constituents - they are not approaching this from the perspective of informing the public on how to best deal with this real but not world-ending danger, instead they are thinking of it in terms of "stopping the cattle from stampeding."
    - bilbo0s 7y ago
      If the danger is real but not world ending, then stopping the cattle from stampeding is the appropriate priority. Because the cattle stampeding can actually be world ending. Particularly for the trampled cattle who were likely in little danger from the start.
      - lliamander 7y ago
guscost 7y ago
No thanks. I don’t stay at home worrying about tractor-trailers or terrorists, either.
- davidw 7y ago
  This is exactly the mentality that has lead to the virus spreading like wildfire in parts of Italy. This thread discusses the health care system in one part of Italy being stretched to the breaking point: https://twitter.com/silviast9/status/1236933818654896129 https://twitter.com/silviast9/status/1236933818654896129
  - jvagner 7y ago
    SF BART was just as full today as it usually is. Headlines might be that big tech companies are telling staff to WFH and paying their hourly employees during this, but most people at most jobs are going about their lives per the usual, because everyone's locked into it. So far.
  - thrwaway69 7y ago
    No, it's because of the asymptomatic nature of it and carelessness by the officials. Without supply and strong backend infrastructure, panic will only cause situation to worsen as people crowd up to get supplies, find them out of stock and blow themselves up over it. Panic will also cause a shortage of human resources which are required to handle the situation. People will line up over small issues and displace those who truly need the help like what happened with masks and hand sanitizers. Hospitals won't be able to keep up. The staff will have other problems to deal with as their toddlers or family members are in panic at home due to schools, offices etc everything shutting down. Mortality rate for people under 40s is not high. When you consider the risk factor, you would be more likely to die from using escalators and stairs over a period of 1-2 year. Stop overblowing/underblowing the thing.
    - davidw 7y ago
      You're right that we should not panic, but start doing the easy things right away to slow the spread.
beamatronic 7y ago
What is a realistic typical mild/moderate case? You get a fever for one week similar to the flu? Or is it a longer fever? I haven’t been able to find this information. Do you just isolate yourself and manage it with Ibuprofen and Gatorade? And then wait a week or two before going back to work?
- officialjunk 7y ago
  survivors also experience lasting lung issues. avoid it if you can
  - dobleboble 7y ago
    Do you have a reference for that? I have seen the claim posted multiple times, but never any proof.
    - officialjunk 7y ago
      is it worth waiting for definitive proof? there are plenty of CT scans out there showing damage. i am not aware of a nicely written trusted source for it. at this point it's not an unreasonable model to assume, and avoid it. if everyone wants to avoid this, and changes behavior now, we will all be safer.
      - ShorsHammer 7y ago
        > is it worth waiting for definitive proof? If you are making the claim then yes.
        officialjunk 7y ago
        in terms of risk it's not an unreasonable thing to assume, waiting is more risk.
    - the-pigeon 7y ago
      I don't believe there's any studies on that. The virus was only discovered at the beginning of December. Most likely they are referencing this study showing 40% of people who had SARS had long lasting effects https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/415378 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar... While COVID-19 mutated from SARS it has a number of characteristics that are different so I don't think it's reasonably to assume it'd be the same. Could be worst or better.
leggomylibro 7y ago
Italy has basically suspended its citizens' civil liberties across huge swaths of the country. That does not seem like anything close to a proportional response, and I am very troubled by how okay everyone seems to be with the curtailing of civil liberties. Remember, the 1st amendment guarantees the right of free association and assembly in the United States. Even though I'm voluntarily limiting my exposure to at-risk populations, I will not comply if someone tries to forbid me from moving around; that would set an awful precedent.
- empath75 7y ago
  I think you might want to recalibrate your idea of how dangerous this virus is.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    The virus is dangerous, but so is a government with unlimited power. This is the complicated and contradictory world we live in...
    - Angostura 7y ago
      Bottom line: You have come into contact with coronavirus - the government asks you to self-isolate at home. Do you? Or do you go off to your favourite bar?
      - whatshisface 7y ago
        You do, but you're talking about self-isolating. Here's the scenario we're discussing: the US decides that Assange has Diphtheria and tells him to stay home and not talk to anybody. Does he? Cambodia decides that the opposition party conference is full of dirty politicians and cancels it. Do they still try to meet? In the first case, Assange would be protected by due process and a public hearing (that is the present US law for quarantine orders). In the second case, there might be a problem. You do not want the government using an emergency as an excuse to grab unlimited and unchecked power.
7777fps 7y ago
Also a lot of people saying "It's just a flu" have clearly never actually had flu, they've had bad colds which they assume are the flu. The flu deadly, and this is worse.
- Aeolun 7y ago
  The flu is a fucking pain, but to call it deadly goes a bit too far.
  - macintux 7y ago
    Well, it kills thousands of people every year. How many more thousands before you consider it deadly?
    - Aeolun 7y ago
      Cars kill tens of thousands of people every year, but we don’t call them deadly cars do we? Cancer is deadly, people with the flu recover just fine in 99.9% of all cases.
      - macintux 7y ago
        I’m sure I could find references to distracted driving being deadly. 99.9% of the time that doesn’t kill either. Influenza, at least when paired with pneumonia as the CDC does for reporting purposes, ranks in the top 10 killers.
  - kevingadd 7y ago
    The flu literally kills people which is part of why everyone is strongly encouraged to get a yearly flu shot: To create herd immunity and protect people who might die if they catch it.
ShorsHammer 7y ago
The average age of coronavirus victims in Italy is 81. The average life expectancy is 82. Before "throttling" the next person that says it, have you considered these people's opinion that this will not be anywhere near as bad as a regular flu season and far from a severe one which is over 600,000 deaths globally? There's a good chance corona is displacing a lot of the deaths that would have occurred anyway due to the flu. As far as things are going, the infections and death toll is nowhere near what flu has already inflicted on the global population in the last 4 months. Why are people not taking the same precautions for the flu in the last few years? Why do people suddenly care so much? It's very much a media driven situation. SARS in 2002 had no cases anywhere after two years of outbreaks. Something to think about. History can look back on these comments here and judge.
- erentz 7y ago
  > The average age of coronavirus victims in Italy is 81. The average life expectancy is 82. A proper comparison would be the average life expectancy of someone who is 81. The comparison you make gives the impression on average these people were all going to die next year which isn’t the case. E.g. in 1994 in the US the life expectancy of an 80 y/o male was 7 years, female 9 years. [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7565998/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7565998/
  - achenatx 7y ago
    you can use this calculator to look at life expectancy at any age for most countries. For italy life expectancy at 80 is 89. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-age https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/your-life-expectancy-by-...
  - ShorsHammer 7y ago
    Both of us are using averages here, do you not see the flaw in this logic?
- trophycase 7y ago
  The death rate of 3.4% as claimed is massive. Some people look at that and think it's small, but for something so contagious that's huge. If it spreads on a pandemic scale someone you know will die from it, almost guaranteed. You just can't say that about the flu.
hef19898 7y ago
I was with you. Until the last paragraph, that turned to rumour spreading and that everything is so much worse. No idea where you have the triage idea from.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  From the news out of Italy: https://www.timesofisrael.com/italy-to-quarantine-over-10-million-in-coronavirus-hit-north/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/italy-to-quarantine-over-10-mi... Some hospitals have run out of IC beds already, many more to follow this week. Whole wards have been converted.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Well, at least it's a newspaper now. Still not Italian nor in Europe, but we left Twitter and YouTube behind.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      I looked for an English language article on the assumption that you don't read Italian.
      - hef19898 7y ago
        Appreciated, still there are better sources out there than an Israelian news outlet. BBC or English language versions of Italian sites.
        jacquesm 7y ago
        I think if that's your standard then you should probably do your own homework, I'm not in your pay.
achenatx 7y ago
yes but how far do we go? Shut down all schools? all flights stopped? All businesses closed? mandatory stay at home quarantines with food drops done by the govt?
- cycrutchfield 7y ago
  The alternative is your health system gets overwhelmed and you have a 5% fatality rate. So, which do you pick?
- hef19898 7y ago
  Neither nor. Respect hygiene, avoid masses and generally a lot of contact with people. Don't panic. And don't take medical equipment away from the people needing it. Because that just makes you a bad person. not you personally, but you get the idea.
austincheney 7y ago
> It's real; it's serious and we should be taking rational actions to mitigate and contain it. How does that differ from a widespread flu outbreak? All this says to me is that you don't take the flu seriously.
- lliamander 7y ago
  Estimates for the COVID-19 mortality rate put it anywhere between 4 and 20 times higher than a severe flu. Hospitalization rates are even higher. There are no vaccines, and no therapies. What else do you need to know that it is serious?
  - austincheney 7y ago
    Why would you think I believe this isn't serious? The medical advise does not say to avoid public places, avoid travel, or to panic. Inventing medical guidance not provided by the experts and panicking will not make you safer. https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2...
    - lliamander 7y ago
      OK, fair enough. You didn't deny it was serious. You did ask how this compares to a flu, and I think I addressed that in a number of ways. Worth noting that the stringent measures taken by Hong Kong to curtail the coronavirus have also helped reduce the spread of the flu: https://www.ft.com/content/ad7ae6b4-5eab-11ea-b0ab-339c2307bcd4 https://www.ft.com/content/ad7ae6b4-5eab-11ea-b0ab-339c2307b...
      - austincheney 7y ago
        I accept your back-peddle, but that doesn't answer my question. I am honestly curious. I have noticed that when people are emotionally inflamed about a subject they tend to lose objectivity, gravitate towards like-minded opinions, and selectively pick at certain data. When that selectivity demands data that isn't available the gap will be filled with an assumption. On Reddit, which does not have a limitation upon negative vote totals, you can fine tune this behavior to study group dynamics, which is reflected in the comments.
jacquesm 7y ago
You'll have to line up and take a number. Sick and tired of people downplaying this. That's what really will make this thing worse. Much worse. Italy is like a war zone right now. I read some first person accounts from health care providers there that read like they are straight from the days of the plague.
FriendlyNormie 7y ago
Do you “throttle” people you disagree with often? You’re wrong, by the way. It’s essentially just a flu. The 0.2% of healthy people who die from it aren’t worth worrying about at all. It’s natural for people to occasionally randomly die from infections of all kinds. A lot of things in this world are being actively ruined by people like you who are spreading panic for no reason. Perhaps you should be “throttled” for this? I’m not sure why so many of you have suddenly decided to take the worst paranoid psychosis traits of Alex Jones, somehow combine those with the worst traits of being an NPC sheep who believes everything the mainstream media tells you, and then make that your identity. Go to events. Go to restaurants, bars, gyms. Relax and enjoy your life. Ignore lunatics who say otherwise.
- sfkdjf9j3j 7y ago
  It's a figure of speech, he's not being literal.
Mountain_Skies 7y ago
I work from home and our company has suspended all "non-essential" travel. The head of our division however has won an award so we are all required to go to the award ceremony in the middle of the metro. It's an industry award so people from all over the country are flying in for the event. I wasn't invited at first, too low level, but now that the big wigs have bowed out, the low level folks are being forced to go so he'll have a cheering section when he gets his award. Somehow this isn't covered by the travel ban. Normally I'd take the subway into the city but will probably drive and pay $40 for parking instead to avoid being in close proximity with so many. That won't help during the awards ceremony. There have already been confirmed cases in the metro and some schools have shutdown so while still unlikely, the chance of infection is far from zero. It seems silly to quit over this with things being in the risk limbo they are now but it also seem reckless to require employees to show up to watch you get an award that could be easily mailed to you. Wonder if I can get workman's compensation if I get sick.
- johntash 7y ago
  You could not go, and say you haven't been feeling well lately. "I don't know if I have the corona virus, but I don't want to spread it just in case"
- macintux 7y ago
  Share your story anonymously with the local media. They’d love that.

buboard 7y ago

I don't even know why facebook could possibly be considered useful for news, considering the high density of plain idiots who post. Twitter is quite better , because you can unfollow idiots; they aren't forced upon you by social convention by being real life friends. But i d like to extoll the virtues of Reddit. Communities like r/china_flu or r/covid19 are moderated, contain a reasonable amount of rumors and early information that a moderately smart person can benefit from, and the density of information is quite high. Makes one wonder why those facebooks and instagrams get all the advertising money ...

jfk13 7y ago
As you said, > Communities like r/china_flu or r/covid19 are moderated If the moderation is any good, it should keep most advertising out. So it gets spent somewhere else.
troyvit 7y ago
Seriously. At this point I'm ready to accept that the world is what we made it. If that means we kill ourselves because we're too daft to read social media critically then as a species we get what we deserve. There's a cute, loose correlation between internet access: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage#/media/File:InternetPenetrationWorldMap.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage#/media/F... and covid spread: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/locations-confirmed-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/locations-confirme...
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
In theory, we know the people who post on Facebook and assess their credibility personally. Unfortunately, it's difficult to assess information even from people we know personally when we only see written statements, many of which are copied from elsewhere.

notacoward 7y ago

It's worth noting that finding that delicate balance between suppressing false information and preserving freedom of speech (plus privacy) still requires a lot of human attention. At the same time, many thousands of workers at Facebook, Twitter, and just about every other major service are adjusting to working from home (in Facebook's case having to overcome what's often a severe addiction to in-person interaction). Plus a good many know somebody who's affected and might not be at 100% effectiveness due to anxiety. So response might be a bit attenuated, and even before that it was always easy for NYT reporters to cherry-pick examples from the company they consider a threat to their own livelihoods. Should these companies do better? Of course. Is it realistic to expect that they'll do a lot better than more traditional sources, including NYT itself? Of course not.

forkLding 7y ago

Theres a huge influx of virus misinformation in China itself, not just Taiwan, worth noting. See: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n05/wang-xiuying/the-word-from-wuhan https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n05/wang-xiuying/the-wor...

decebalus1 7y ago

The biggest problem is that this information compounds with the reality on the ground (for example the stringent test requirements in King county - symptomatic patients being turned away from testing) which further breeds mistrust in the government, panic and susceptibility to any explanation which makes sense.

makomk 7y ago
This is kind of the problem. Tbe symptoms are basically the same as flu and many other things at least in mild cases, pretty much nowhere is testing all patients who have them, and the reaction of medical professionals to the idea that they should tends to involve words like "dangerous" and "irresponsible". But the mainstream media, including publications like the Times, fed the idea that not aggressively testing was basically asking for an epidemic, tied it to powerful partisan narratives, and now there's no going back.
- decebalus1 7y ago
  > Tbe symptoms are basically the same as flu there are some nuances to that and the symptoms are not basically the same. One of the MSFT employees who ended up testing positive was initially turned away from testing at the hospital as there was no travel abroad involved. She/he self-quarantined and ended up being tested by the 'Seattle Flu Study' which came up positive. A lot of reactions to that were along the lines of 'well, if the result is the same (you need to self-isolate, same treatment as the flu) why is it useful to know if you have the novel virus?'. This is bad, IMO. It sends the message that there's some entity who wants the numbers to stay low via denying testing, while at the same time sending people on their way thinking 'it's not serious' who would then get back to their daily routine which would infect others. As a King county resident looking at what's happening in Italy, I have this constant anxiety that this is only going to get worse. Coupled with the amount of bullcrap thrown around on Facebook, I'm worried that some people who were on the edge prior to this outbreak would snap. There's a Facebook group full of preppers (because of the Seattle big earthquake thing) which completely blew up with this outbreak. I'm talking people stocking up on ammo to ensure nobody steals their stash.

anigbrowl 7y ago

This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/ I've spent a lot of time in recent years warning about disinformation and the value of flagging or deplatforming bad actors who exploit the valuable principle of free speech to deliberately make others worse off. Free speech is good, but the economics of information distribution often end up giving free reach to purveyors of information with negative truth value.

vkou 7y ago
In the marketplace of ideas, truth will always triumph against lies. We don't really have any reason[1] to believe that this will actually be the case, but we need to have absolute, unquestioning conviction in this axiom, lest we go to, ah, bad places. [1] The observable triumph of this axiom is all the proof that is necessary for it.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Assuming your conclusions as your premise is known as circular reasoning. There's abundant evidence to the contrary for your claim; lies are documented to spread faster than truth, and while truth generally wins out over the long run (because environmental facts have a way of asserting themselves over mere beliefs), accumulated false beliefs can dominate long enough to be disastrous. The problem with the whole 'marketplace of ideas' schtick is that it ignores the feedback loop which makes it more profitable to invest in lies so you can make money investing in lies. https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146
whatshisface 7y ago
I'm not on board with the idea of distinguishing between speech and "reach." Forcing everybody to exercise their free speech in isolated 3'x3' cells would be functionally identical to silencing them, but you could use this same distinction to argue that you were only ensuring that they didn't have a platform. One of the purposes of free speech is to make it possible to say things about authorities that holds them accountable and makes them uncomfortable. If the authorities had the ability to limit your "reach," they would use it to silence you in exactly the same way and to the exact same end as if they could silence your "free speech."

partiallypro 7y ago

This isn't just a Facebook/Twitter thing. A person on MSNBC just said that 20% of the US will die from this virus. Why would you say that? No stat backs that up.

thenayr 7y ago
When did this happen? Seems unlikely they actually said that.
clarry 7y ago
Well let me think of something. Maybe they know something about the virus and what happens when it mutates, comes back, and reinfects you? (Or maybe someone who thinks the know something told 'em that.) I mean I know nothing so that's just a wild guess, but I think it is equally naive to think that looking at the current stats is enough to extrapolate and say anything and everything that needs to be said.
- partiallypro 7y ago
  Or they don't know what they are talking about and have an agenda.
dredmorbius 7y ago
Italy's current stats show 463 deaths, 724 recoveries. http://web.archive.org/web/20200309190730/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_coronavirus_outbreak_by_country_and_territory http://web.archive.org/web/20200309190730/https://en.m.wikip... (archive.org to show status as of my comment) (WHO's SITREP 49 shows 366 deaths, doesn't list recoveries: https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200309-sitrep-49-covid-19.pdf https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situati...) The raw CFR represented is quite high. Whether that represents a virulent strain or insufficient monitoring (I suspect the latter) isn't clear.
- partiallypro 7y ago
  On the contrary the death rate in Germany is almost 0%. The median age for those that have passed in Italy is ~81. Most of the US deaths currently were from an end-of-life care center. A massive percentage of the deaths in China are from the original province. I'm not saying this isn't an issue, and we should especially look out for our elderly, but the stats simply aren't there to claim a 20% death rate. https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

mech1234 7y ago

The most interesting bit of misinformation that I've seen develop is the claim that N95 masks do not help when you are in public, despite the fact that they factually do help. The chain of events: 1. Concerns arise that respirator inventories will be depleted, leaving few or none available for medical personel. Media outlets spread this news. 2a. Thorough and factual news outlets spread the news that respirators have some effectiveness but are not a silver bullet. They may be used among other preventative measures. They talk about the differences between levels of effectiveness of dust masks and respirators. 2b. Sloppy outlets, and the ones more interested in helping the greater good (preventing hording), start lying, claiming that the dust masks do not work and respirators do not work. They often conflate the two. They go to the effort to shame hoarders and praise other people who practice washing and sanitizing hands, not touching your face, etc. It's been fun and terrifying to watch. News outlets do not have an interest in giving a nuanced message. They are willing to lie if they think it helps. It's a good case study of when you should explicitly not trust a claim made by the media. Meanwhile, I have a stack of 20 N95 respirators I bought for woodworking a year ago that I've been offering to friends and family. I've had no takers yet.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jbob2000 7y ago
Here's why masks are useless: You are going to take your mask off with your dirty hands. You're going to wear your mask dutifully while outside, then you're going to walk inside your house and the first thing you will do is take your mask off - with your dirty hands. There are so many gotchas with wearing masks that it's best to just leave them for the people who are closest to the crisis. They're the ones with the greatest need and they have the training to make them effective. And besides... the coronavirus is not airborne, you need to be hit with a droplet from an infected person's cough or sneeze. There's such a small chance of that happening while you're out-and-about that it's not worth it to wear these things. The real solution is to wash your hands because that's the main vector of infection.
- whatshisface 7y ago

haunter 7y ago

otoh you have people saying 150 million people will die? Is that better?

neonate 7y ago

https://archive.md/3GPHv https://archive.md/3GPHv

clumsysmurf 7y ago

It certainly is not helping Vice President Mike Pence is requiring government health officials and scientists at CDC to coordinate all public health information through him for vetting and possibly censoring. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronavirus-pence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/us/politics/us-coronaviru...

lliamander 7y ago
"We should clamp down on the spread of misinformation!" ... "Oh no, we're being censored!"
- davidw 7y ago
  Scientists and experts - the competent career people in any admin - should be speaking freely and directly, not running their communications through Mike Pence/politicians.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    To see Dr. Fauci standing next to Trump and saying he's not being muzzled, then describing a textbook case of what muzzling would be. Cringeworthy.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
    Competent career people say stupid things like don't buy up all the masks because we'll run out if you do. The population's obvious reaction was to buy all the masks. People like that, who are objective/scientific/facts minded should be kept mostly out of the spotlight, not allowed to speak off a script approved by someone who understands psychology, economics, and politics.
  - admiral33 7y ago
    That's exactly what OP's sarcasm is implying.
    - 7y ago

Havoc 7y ago

Well at least they are trying for a change so that's refreshing

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

twright 7y ago

This feels like the ultimate outcome of both companies' lax moderation policies. Ironic that about a year ago there were several articles about how Facebook will suppress misleading anit-vax content but will not remove it [1]. I imagine a lot of managers saying "let's just treat this virus misinfo. the same way." [1]: https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-anti-vaccine-crack-down/ https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-anti-vaccine-crack-down...

FriendlyNormie 7y ago

Everyone who spreads panic on HN during this time should have their username logged so they can be permanently shadowbanned later when it becomes clear that mass casualties aren’t happening. Everyone who upvoted panic comments should also be shadowbanned from voting.

kevingadd 7y ago
https://www.google.com/search?q=italy+coronavirus https://www.google.com/search?q=italy+coronavirus > Italy is extending its coronavirus quarantine measures, which include a ban on public gatherings, to the entire country. > Italy's coronavirus death toll jumped on Monday by 97 to 463. It is the worst-hit country after China. > The number of confirmed infections also increased to 9,172, up from 7,375 on Sunday, official figures show.
- FriendlyNormie 7y ago
  Add this username to the list.
  - cringefest 7y ago
    I know you won't care, least of all because I don't maintain an account here anymore, but I have come to pretty much detest seeing your username in any thread. That's a first, to remember an HN handle for such repeatedly crappy content. could you at least be less of a jackass and articulate yourself? are you denying (1) current numbers (2) that the existing trends that are being followed so far will stop holding true (3) that old people count as people? Because otherwise I (and likely everyone else) have no damn idea where you're coming from.
- strbean 7y ago
  Upvoted you just so I get shadowbanned from upvoting in the future.
dang 7y ago
Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

christkv 7y ago

If everyone wore even cheap surgical masks coughs would be coughs by the mask reducing spread even by nonsymptomatic people. Think of it like reducing the effective range of infection to a couple of cm instead of maybe a meter. They don't have to be n95 or better to help reduce r0

lliamander 7y ago
Just wear a simple surgical mask regardless of whether you are sick. People avoid you like the plague (reducing the chance that they will spread anything to you).

zamalek 7y ago

It could be exactly the same thing as "forward this email to at least 20 people and Bill Gates will give you a million dollars," or "Facebook is checking for account activity, share this." It's not necessarily malicious intent, but regardless of whether it is, it is truly idiotic; just like the above examples.

tu7001 7y ago

I think its okay,if I want gossips, or cats, I'm going to social media, for information, Reuters, WSJ, etc.

tmaly 7y ago

I am getting a ton of messages from friends that seem to be in a panic. I am no expert, and I don’t have answers. I did read about a simulation called Operation Dark Winter that was done years back. One of the conclusions was that it was incredibly difficult to get correct information out to the public. This was before mobile phones and social media were common. There is definitely a higher noise ratio out there. I don’t know how to solve this problem. My governor tweets out that they have these meetings, but he provides no detail. I think giving more detail would help comfort people. Perhaps it they would not flock to unreliable sources online if they had more details.