6 ms·

You also need to pay Americans more to compensate for health insurance, insane holiday policy, poor worker protections, huge student debts that can’t be bankrup

You also need to pay Americans more to compensate for health insurance, insane holiday policy, poor worker protections, huge student debts that can’t be bankrupted out of, and so on.

arcturus17 7y ago
This is a typical retort, but the difference is eye-watering and it more than makes up for that. A representative software engineer salary in the US is 5-10x higher than in Spain, and I doubt they are 5-10x more efficient. Kudos to American computer scientists and software engineers for reaching the compensation and status that the profession(s) deserve.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Where in the US compared to where in Spain exactly? If we go for 5x then you're saying that a SV engineer being paid 200k in SF would be earning 50k in a big city in Spain? (rounding the exchange rate) Glassdoor tells me for "Software Engineer" it's on Avg 114k in SF (150k max) and 34kEUR (~ 40kUSD and 50kEUR max) in Madrid So I can see the 5x for high seniority "regular equity" people but not for your average worker.
  - arcturus17 7y ago
    OK yes, 3x for averages, with a widening gap at the high seniority level. My point still stands - 3x is still a tremendous difference that more than makes up any other consideration (healthcare, rent, etc.) and makes one ponder whether a single US engineer is doing the work of three Spaniards...
    - raverbashing 7y ago
      Agreed, and it's an interesting phenomenon, even if you think inside the country borders. Could Google close their entire MV office and relocate to Medford, Oregon and save millions of dollars in salaries? But of course it's easier and there's more trust (some of which is merited because of how information and best practices spread) that someone that lives in SV can do the job their needed done.
    - Barrin92 7y ago
      > than makes up any other consideration (healthcare, rent, etc I wouldn't be so quick. A three bedroom apartment in the city centre of Madrid goes for rent of about 1.7k per month. The costs in SF seem to be about 4-8k. I've heard American colleagues from the area talk about tens of thousands of dollars spent on costs for children's education, in much of Europe education is free or costs a negligible amount of money. I think in some parts of California you are eligible for certain types of aid even if you're into six figure salaries. Anecdotally on a trip to California staying on the couch of a friend who rented a place for 3k you could have rented an entire house for the same price in Europe or presumably much of the US. I'm German and when I started as a developer out of university I made ~45k and I paid 900 bucks in rent in a large German city and I did not even need a car.
- peteretep 7y ago
  > A representative software engineer salary in the US is 5-10x higher Bullshit. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/... https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/Salary/ https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...
  - arcturus17 7y ago
    Look at the total compensation comparison - software engineers are almost never paid any form of bonus in Spain - and it's at least 3x at every level. That's just averages. The difference easily grows to 5-10x in "elite" positions.
    - peteretep 7y ago
      You are relentlessly trying to pretend SV salaries are the same thing as American salaries more generally.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        Most companies pay the same in SF, Seattle, NYC. Google did when I was there.
        ta999999171 7y ago
        All places not indicative of the average American.
- benhurmarcel 7y ago
  > Kudos to American computer scientists and software engineers for reaching the compensation and status that the profession(s) deserve. First, all STEM salaries are significantly higher in the US compared to Europe, not just software engineers and computer scientists. Second, it doesn't have much to do with the merit of those people. It has to do with offer and demand.
RestlessMind 7y ago
I have worked for almost 15 years in SV at multiple tech companies (FANG and non-FANG) and at all the places, I have seen health insurance, at least 15 vacation days per year, 9-10 holidays and generous salary to pay off the student debt. So your comment just reads like a somewhat inaccurate meme.
- atticmanatee 7y ago
  Here's the thing: most companies in Europe also provide private health insurance, almost double of those 15 days and more or less the same holidays (which are state defined and if not provided, must be paid at 150% to 200% the normal rate - depends between country). This, of course, does not account for the entire gap in wages between both sides of the Atlantic, but it does weigh on it.
  - RestlessMind 7y ago
    Sure and the salary differential probably trumps those extra vacation days. According to levels.fyi[1], median compensation package for a software engineer in SF bay area is $237,000. That is a very big number even accounting for health insurance premiums, California taxes and the cost of living here. Can you please share a few European locations which offer a better deal than this? AFAIK: London has shitty salaries and slightly lower CoL than SF, Paris / Berlin / Barcelona have even shittier salaries with much lower CoL but higher taxes, Zurich has comparable salaries and lower taxes but as much or higher CoL. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Francisco-Bay-Area/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Franci...
    - ginko 7y ago
      What's the point of all that money when you don't get any time to spend it? edit: I know this sounds flippant and like sour grapes, but I'm actually in the process of looking for a new job. Many of the best fitting job offers for my qualification are in the States, but the lack of vacation days, long work hours, etc. are a MAJOR deal breaker for me. With 15 vacation days I could see my family back home once per year during the Christmas holidays and maybe have 1.5 weeks for some short trip somewhere during the year. That's it.

You also need to pay Americans more to compensate for health insurance, insane holiday policy, poor worker protections, huge student debts that can’t be bankrupted out of, and so on.

arcturus17 7y ago

This is a typical retort, but the difference is eye-watering and it more than makes up for that. A representative software engineer salary in the US is 5-10x higher than in Spain, and I doubt they are 5-10x more efficient. Kudos to American computer scientists and software engineers for reaching the compensation and status that the profession(s) deserve.

raverbashing 7y ago
Where in the US compared to where in Spain exactly? If we go for 5x then you're saying that a SV engineer being paid 200k in SF would be earning 50k in a big city in Spain? (rounding the exchange rate) Glassdoor tells me for "Software Engineer" it's on Avg 114k in SF (150k max) and 34kEUR (~ 40kUSD and 50kEUR max) in Madrid So I can see the 5x for high seniority "regular equity" people but not for your average worker.
- arcturus17 7y ago
  OK yes, 3x for averages, with a widening gap at the high seniority level. My point still stands - 3x is still a tremendous difference that more than makes up any other consideration (healthcare, rent, etc.) and makes one ponder whether a single US engineer is doing the work of three Spaniards...
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Agreed, and it's an interesting phenomenon, even if you think inside the country borders. Could Google close their entire MV office and relocate to Medford, Oregon and save millions of dollars in salaries? But of course it's easier and there's more trust (some of which is merited because of how information and best practices spread) that someone that lives in SV can do the job their needed done.
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    > than makes up any other consideration (healthcare, rent, etc I wouldn't be so quick. A three bedroom apartment in the city centre of Madrid goes for rent of about 1.7k per month. The costs in SF seem to be about 4-8k. I've heard American colleagues from the area talk about tens of thousands of dollars spent on costs for children's education, in much of Europe education is free or costs a negligible amount of money. I think in some parts of California you are eligible for certain types of aid even if you're into six figure salaries. Anecdotally on a trip to California staying on the couch of a friend who rented a place for 3k you could have rented an entire house for the same price in Europe or presumably much of the US. I'm German and when I started as a developer out of university I made ~45k and I paid 900 bucks in rent in a large German city and I did not even need a car.
peteretep 7y ago
> A representative software engineer salary in the US is 5-10x higher Bullshit. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/Salary https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Developer/... https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/Salary/ https://www.payscale.com/research/ES/Job=Software_Developer/...
- arcturus17 7y ago
  Look at the total compensation comparison - software engineers are almost never paid any form of bonus in Spain - and it's at least 3x at every level. That's just averages. The difference easily grows to 5-10x in "elite" positions.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    You are relentlessly trying to pretend SV salaries are the same thing as American salaries more generally.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      Most companies pay the same in SF, Seattle, NYC. Google did when I was there.
      - ta999999171 7y ago
        All places not indicative of the average American.
benhurmarcel 7y ago
> Kudos to American computer scientists and software engineers for reaching the compensation and status that the profession(s) deserve. First, all STEM salaries are significantly higher in the US compared to Europe, not just software engineers and computer scientists. Second, it doesn't have much to do with the merit of those people. It has to do with offer and demand.

RestlessMind 7y ago

I have worked for almost 15 years in SV at multiple tech companies (FANG and non-FANG) and at all the places, I have seen health insurance, at least 15 vacation days per year, 9-10 holidays and generous salary to pay off the student debt. So your comment just reads like a somewhat inaccurate meme.

atticmanatee 7y ago
Here's the thing: most companies in Europe also provide private health insurance, almost double of those 15 days and more or less the same holidays (which are state defined and if not provided, must be paid at 150% to 200% the normal rate - depends between country). This, of course, does not account for the entire gap in wages between both sides of the Atlantic, but it does weigh on it.
- RestlessMind 7y ago
  Sure and the salary differential probably trumps those extra vacation days. According to levels.fyi[1], median compensation package for a software engineer in SF bay area is $237,000. That is a very big number even accounting for health insurance premiums, California taxes and the cost of living here. Can you please share a few European locations which offer a better deal than this? AFAIK: London has shitty salaries and slightly lower CoL than SF, Paris / Berlin / Barcelona have even shittier salaries with much lower CoL but higher taxes, Zurich has comparable salaries and lower taxes but as much or higher CoL. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Francisco-Bay-Area/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/San-Franci...
  - ginko 7y ago
    What's the point of all that money when you don't get any time to spend it? edit: I know this sounds flippant and like sour grapes, but I'm actually in the process of looking for a new job. Many of the best fitting job offers for my qualification are in the States, but the lack of vacation days, long work hours, etc. are a MAJOR deal breaker for me. With 15 vacation days I could see my family back home once per year during the Christmas holidays and maybe have 1.5 weeks for some short trip somewhere during the year. That's it.