28 ms·

> Basically, rather than paying for drugs on a per unit basis, you pay a lump sum for access to the drug. Hmm... a system where uncommon but extreme spikes in

by _bxg1 7y ago

> Basically, rather than paying for drugs on a per unit basis, you pay a lump sum for access to the drug. Hmm... a system where uncommon but extreme spikes in the cost of care are artificially distributed so that an entire society can bear them as a group... that sounds oddly familiar...

refurb 7y ago
Artificially distributed? It's no different than paying a drug maker a ton of money to make the drugs and stockpile them. And at any rate, the alternative is what we have now - no drugs to treat these diseases.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I wasn't using the word "artificial" in a negative sense; I was pointing out that this is a narrow example of socialized healthcare and why it's beneficial.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Gotcha. As an aside, the "netflix model" for drug payments is already a reality in Louisiana. Basically the drug maker and state government negotiated a payment for enough hepatitis C drugs to cure everyone in the state.[1] [1]http://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/newsroom/detail/5181 http://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/newsroom/detail/5181
    - luckydata 7y ago
      Yeah, it's called single payer and it's pretty effective. We should try it on other diseases, all of them.
    - anewhope 7y ago
      > treat patients within Louisiana’s Medicaid and Department of Corrections populations Only Medicaid + inmates, not everyone in the state?
hnzix 7y ago
Please put the invisible hands of the market over your ears and wait for the drugs to trickle down. Jokes aside - while people are justifiably pointing out the community healthcare angle, arguably this problem is exacerbated by the American FDA drug approval model, ie no corporation will fund clinical trials unless they're guaranteed a profit monopoly.
- cjfd 7y ago
  Actually, there is a market solution to this problem. I cannot claim to have thought this up, it was discussed in an episode of econtalk. Don't remember the person that was interviewed. The idea is that big pharma companies have to publicly post a price for each of their patents. If anyone is prepared to pay that price they get the patent for that price. Next there needs to be a tax that is a percentage of the price of the patent. The money that comes from this tax needs to be funneled back into healthcare or even better go straight to the ones who are paying for the particular medicine that the patent protects. Now the level of innovation can be set by how high the percentage of the tax is. If the tax is very low healthcare will be expensive but there can be lots of innovation. If the tax is high healthcare costs will be low but one can also not expect much innovation. Of course, there also are some other things that need to be fixed. E.g., doctors should not get all of their schooling financed by pharma companies and so on. The general idea of such taxes could be applicable to any sort of non-replacable entity, e.g., it could also apply to land. For one thing, this would make feudalism regarding land quite impossible, which would generally be considered a good thing.
  - j_m_b 7y ago
    >The money that comes from this tax needs to be funneled back into healthcare or even better go straight to the ones who are paying for the particular medicine that the patent protects. Tax money is allocated for one thing is often used for other things. There is nothing preventing lawmakers from doing this, they after all, make the laws.
    - cjfd 7y ago
      I suppose that is quite possible. I still like the idea though. Like, if they are going to engage in scoundrelism it needs to be as blatant as possible. Now we are stealing from the sick. That kind of thing.
jyrkesh 7y ago
The fact that there's a feasible market incentive for drug R&D suggests to me that that an actual competitive approach to health care would stimulate this sort of behavior on a more widespread basis.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  Perhaps that market incentive only exists when competition is a small/limited factor (say near monopolistic cases)? There are a lot of businesses I'd happily set up if I knew I'd have limited to no competition. When competition is more fierce, it disincentivizes me to even try. If I was guaranteed the lionshare of say, local coffee goers across a large area and didn't have to worry about Starbucks, Peet's, etc. I'm pretty sure I could make it successful and my life would be pretty easy, all things considered. A lot of rural ISPs can operate this way because it's not viable to compete with their infrastructure foothold in a lot of cases and barriers to entry are high/capital intensive (similar to pharma). I work in a research environment and there are a lot of funding opportunities/solicitations out there that fit our internal capabilities that we don't even bother writing proposals up for because we know how competitive and unlikely it is to be successful compared to certain other opportunities. Instead, we choose our battles where we suspect we have a higher probability of success: less competitive options. This leads to higher ROI for our time. It works fairly well and I imagine most businesses try to operate under a similar perspective (or more dubiously where they also try to actively stifle their competition).

by _bxg1 7y ago

refurb 7y ago

Artificially distributed? It's no different than paying a drug maker a ton of money to make the drugs and stockpile them. And at any rate, the alternative is what we have now - no drugs to treat these diseases.

_bxg1 7y ago
I wasn't using the word "artificial" in a negative sense; I was pointing out that this is a narrow example of socialized healthcare and why it's beneficial.
- refurb 7y ago
  Gotcha. As an aside, the "netflix model" for drug payments is already a reality in Louisiana. Basically the drug maker and state government negotiated a payment for enough hepatitis C drugs to cure everyone in the state.[1] [1]http://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/newsroom/detail/5181 http://ldh.la.gov/index.cfm/newsroom/detail/5181
  - luckydata 7y ago
    Yeah, it's called single payer and it's pretty effective. We should try it on other diseases, all of them.
  - anewhope 7y ago
    > treat patients within Louisiana’s Medicaid and Department of Corrections populations Only Medicaid + inmates, not everyone in the state?

hnzix 7y ago

Please put the invisible hands of the market over your ears and wait for the drugs to trickle down. Jokes aside - while people are justifiably pointing out the community healthcare angle, arguably this problem is exacerbated by the American FDA drug approval model, ie no corporation will fund clinical trials unless they're guaranteed a profit monopoly.

cjfd 7y ago
Actually, there is a market solution to this problem. I cannot claim to have thought this up, it was discussed in an episode of econtalk. Don't remember the person that was interviewed. The idea is that big pharma companies have to publicly post a price for each of their patents. If anyone is prepared to pay that price they get the patent for that price. Next there needs to be a tax that is a percentage of the price of the patent. The money that comes from this tax needs to be funneled back into healthcare or even better go straight to the ones who are paying for the particular medicine that the patent protects. Now the level of innovation can be set by how high the percentage of the tax is. If the tax is very low healthcare will be expensive but there can be lots of innovation. If the tax is high healthcare costs will be low but one can also not expect much innovation. Of course, there also are some other things that need to be fixed. E.g., doctors should not get all of their schooling financed by pharma companies and so on. The general idea of such taxes could be applicable to any sort of non-replacable entity, e.g., it could also apply to land. For one thing, this would make feudalism regarding land quite impossible, which would generally be considered a good thing.
- j_m_b 7y ago
  >The money that comes from this tax needs to be funneled back into healthcare or even better go straight to the ones who are paying for the particular medicine that the patent protects. Tax money is allocated for one thing is often used for other things. There is nothing preventing lawmakers from doing this, they after all, make the laws.
  - cjfd 7y ago
    I suppose that is quite possible. I still like the idea though. Like, if they are going to engage in scoundrelism it needs to be as blatant as possible. Now we are stealing from the sick. That kind of thing.

jyrkesh 7y ago

The fact that there's a feasible market incentive for drug R&D suggests to me that that an actual competitive approach to health care would stimulate this sort of behavior on a more widespread basis.

Frost1x 7y ago
Perhaps that market incentive only exists when competition is a small/limited factor (say near monopolistic cases)? There are a lot of businesses I'd happily set up if I knew I'd have limited to no competition. When competition is more fierce, it disincentivizes me to even try. If I was guaranteed the lionshare of say, local coffee goers across a large area and didn't have to worry about Starbucks, Peet's, etc. I'm pretty sure I could make it successful and my life would be pretty easy, all things considered. A lot of rural ISPs can operate this way because it's not viable to compete with their infrastructure foothold in a lot of cases and barriers to entry are high/capital intensive (similar to pharma). I work in a research environment and there are a lot of funding opportunities/solicitations out there that fit our internal capabilities that we don't even bother writing proposals up for because we know how competitive and unlikely it is to be successful compared to certain other opportunities. Instead, we choose our battles where we suspect we have a higher probability of success: less competitive options. This leads to higher ROI for our time. It works fairly well and I imagine most businesses try to operate under a similar perspective (or more dubiously where they also try to actively stifle their competition).