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Ingenious Low-Cost Tilt Detection System (2018)
- dekhn 7y agoLarge expensive equipment (shipped in custom-built pallets) use this. About $3/each to ship a $100+K box. https://www.amazon.com/Tiltwatch-STWPLUS-Plus-Label-Pack/dp/B00KG4BJN2 https://www.amazon.com/Tiltwatch-STWPLUS-Plus-Label-Pack/dp/...
- exhilaration 7y agoHow does one acquire these without triggering the tilt alert?
- draw_down 7y agoI'm imagining a very low-tech solution to this one.
- phren0logy 7y agoYou don't, you just flip them all around and jiggle them to reset them. Then you hope nobody does that to your box...
- Johnny555 7y agoAre you sure? There are holes in the yellow backing that look perfectly placed to have some sort of retaining pin inserted to hold the balls in place until use. At first I thought they were meant to insert the ball, but the holes look too small.
- LeoPanthera 7y agoIf you don't know, don't guess.
- phren0logy 7y agoThe ones I used (20 years ago?) worked this way. It's not a guess, it's just outdated. Regardless, my apologies for the inaccuracy.
- SamBam 7y agoI guess those ones didn't have the 180° sensors on them? With these one it would be pretty much impossible to jiggle both balls into place.
- pretendgeneer 7y agoI believe those dots above the start area have something pulled out when you take the back of the sticker that stops it from rolling around until it gets applied to the correct thing
- ogre_codes 7y agoThere are little dots at the top of the place where the each ball starts. I expect there is something in those spots which prevents the balls from moving and you remove it before you apply the detector.
- klodolph 7y agoYou can see that in each section, there is a small hole in the back where you can see the box through the hole. When you buy these, each hole has a pin in it, keeping the ball in the starting area. When you pull the indicator off the backing, the pins come with it. So you only have to keep it upright after you peel the backing off. Here is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuLClpWRmQ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuLClpWRmQ8 You can see that each hole has a red colored pin in it, and you can see the pins come away with the backing (at about 0:21 in the video).
- tantalor 7y agoThat means the pins could be replaced one at a time to reset the device back to its original "unperturbed" state.
- function_seven 7y agoTo replace the pins, you'd need to tear the device off of the package. I assume that means cardboard is coming off with it, and the adhesive is ruined for re-application. So now you need to apply new adhesive, and do a good enough job that the recipient doesn't catch on to your shenanigans.
- derefr 7y agoOr you could order your own batch of them and, right before handoff, rip off their sticker and then affix yours to cover the damage. ...which is presumably why these have unique serial numbers! They really did think of everything. (You have to make sure the shipper communicates the serial number to the recipient for that part to function, though.)
- frandroid 7y agoYou ship them in a box with one sticker applied to the side, of course. #inception
- heartbeats 7y agoDoesn't being mass-produced sort of defeat the purpose? Buy an identical label, replace the barcode, and you're done.
- paxys 7y agoNot if it is stuck inside the box.
- rootusrootus 7y agoI imagine half the point (or more) is to be very visible to encourage anybody handling it during shipping to be careful.
- ska 7y agoThat's why you do both. They are cheap (relatively).
- mattkrause 7y agoUntil someone checks the serial number. See the C097412 in the bottom-right corner? Your replacement will be C097413 or something, and won't match.
- heartbeats 7y agoYeah, but if you replace the barcode that's not a problem. I suppose you could stick one on the inside and one on the outside, as paxys suggested. Then you'd have both deterrent and tamper-resistance. As an extra bonus, if some schmuck tilts and replaces it, the deterrent will still be in force for the next guy down the line.
- mattkrause 7y agoThe serial number is--in theory--recorded by the sender specifically so that you can't just swap them out. You put sticker #C097412 on the crate yourself, record the number, and the shipper takes it away. If things arrive damaged--and these are usually used on very expensive shipments--you can check the tilt indicator AND its number. I would bet it's much worse if indicator #D108523 arrives instead. As an added impediment, they're often on the surface of the item but buried beneath a bunch of plastic wrap/padding/etc.
- lykr0n 7y agoI love simple and ingenious stuff like this. Low cost, simple, and effective low tech way to monitor a shipment.
- echelon 7y agoFor those who didn't quite get this on the first glance: This isn't a low-fi analog sensor used for taking novel measurements of things. It's meant to be affixed to packages to determine if they were mishandled during shipment. If a package was dropped or overturned, the ball bearings will fall out of place and (presumably) be almost impossible to return to their original positions. Pretty cool.
- _bxg1 7y agoYeah I had no clue what I was looking at. Thanks for the explanation.
- umvi 7y ago> and (presumably) be almost impossible to return to their original positions You'd want the widget to have a tracking number on it though, because otherwise they could just rip the whole widget off and slap on a fresh one. I'm hoping that's what the purpose of the number along the right edge is.
- mattkrause 7y agoExactly. https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/S-5571/Damage-Indicators/TiltWatch-XTR-Indicators https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/S-5571/Damage-Indicators...
- mike_d 7y ago> and (presumably) be almost impossible to return to their original positions Unless they have fixed them, the bearings are metallic and can be reset with a magnet. (I had to do this a few times when I bumped the thing putting it on)
- csours 7y agoThese look like glass from the low res photo.
- LeoPanthera 7y agoThis is why you stick them on the inside of your package, as well as the outside.
- larkost 7y agoMy last employer used these when shipping robots. I don't know which was better: being able to show mis-shipment, or the deterrent effect of these highly-visible stickers.
- gwright 7y agoThere was an article here a while back about a bike company having lots of trouble with damage during shipping. They changed their packaging so that it appeared that there was a TV in the box and not a bike and the damage claims dropped. Found it: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/25/13048668/vanmoof-shipping-damages-dutch-bicycle-design https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/25/13048668/vanmoof-shipping...
- pmiller2 7y agoThat's funny! I had heard of this before, but I misremembered it as a TV company printing a bicycle on the box to deter theft. I sort of wonder if that would work now, come to think of it.
- userbinator 7y agoIf a TV company put a bicycle on the box, there would be plenty of shipping damage. The only reason the opposite worked is because people naturally assume a TV is far more fragile than a bicycle.
- jolmg 7y agoBy work, I think they were referring to avoiding thefts, not shipping damage.
- userbinator 7y agoYes, perhaps I wasn't clear but I meant that instead of thefts it will become shipping damage.
- 7y ago
- Johnny555 7y agoCouldn't these be triggered by shock/vibrations that make the ball jump to the next slot? At first I thought they were filled with mineral oil or some viscous fluid to prevent this, but it looks like there are holes in the backing material so it's not fluid-tight.
- mike_d 7y agoShock and vibration are bad too. You'll usually use tilt sensors with impact sensors: https://spotsee.io/impact https://spotsee.io/impact
- daenz 7y agoAssuming Z axis is "up", you'll need one of these for the X and the Y axis to catch all relevant tilts. It's probably not cost effective or practical to make a 2-dimensional detector, but I imagine you could.
- mike_d 7y agoI used these when we would ship servers off to edge sites. You end up putting 5 or 6 of them on the box... tilt sensors on two sides, impact sensors, and temperature/moisture to make sure they haven't been left out on tarmac/loading docks. $100 in stickers on a $xx,xxx shipment is an easy justification. In practice they aren't hard for a motivated person to reset, but they do result in handlers along the way being a bit more careful with your stuff.
- nneonneo 7y agoIt’s all about raising the bar for mishandling. Sure, if an unethical handling company messes up your shipment they could go at it and try and reset the indicator(s), but they could also just get the job done right and not risk getting sued if the client does detect the tampering. On the other hand, without indicators there’s nothing stopping them from pretending they didn’t just throw your box around...
- namibj 7y agoIt also tends to make it rather obvious fraud. While replacing a sticker is legal, doing so to trick someone into paying you is usually criminal fraud. Criminal liability is a _far_ bigger leap than normal deceptive business practices.
- SAI_Peregrinus 7y agoEspecially since these stickers (and those like them) have serial numbers, and the sender typically notes the serial numbers in an email or similar when the item is shipped. The effort required to reset one without it being noticed is pretty high.
- paxys 7y agoIt is clever, yes, but also something that has been used in the shipping and logistics industry for decades. So more "standard" than "ingenious".
- a3n 7y agoThey were ingenious when invented, and are still ingenious. I would still buy the inventor a beer today.
- tachyonbeam 7y agoIngenious means clever, and the fact that it's not a novelty doesn't make it any less ingenious.
- nneonneo 7y agoSome considerations: these packages have a very strong adhesive on the back which is hard to remove without damaging the package or surface; they have unique serial numbers (barcoded on newer versions under the bubble packaging) so that they can’t be easily replaced; and the balls are glass, not metal, so they can’t be pushed around by a magnet. It’s overall a pretty ingenious system. Another one is the Tip’n’tell system, which uses fine coloured sand and clear tape to detect tipping in one direction. I once saw one of these affixed to the side of a large autoclave which had been shipped to our university. There’s a whole series of these shipping indicators, for detecting acceleration (shock), temperature (too hot/too cold), and pressure.
- Nextgrid 7y agoI wonder if static electricity could be used to move the ball and bypass the "no magnets" feature.
- AtHeartEngineer 7y agoDoubtful, the static would traverse the plastic packaging and never touch the balls
- dokem 7y agoI’d go for something like a powerful vibrator like used in concrete settling.
- amelius 7y agoOr exert some pressure onto the window, that will keep the ball from moving.
- ken 7y agoIn my experience, the blue/red "Tip-N-Tell" indicator arrow is more common -- and also cheaper.
- deepspace 7y agoThis is not exactly new technology. I was involved in shipping large, expensive, delicate equipment overseas back in the 1990s and we used tilt indicators extensively. Not exactly the same as these, but very similar. Along with shock- and humidity indicators of course.
- Sephr 7y agoI imagine that you could bypass this system by resetting glass ball positions manually with the use of high-power acoustic grippers combined with additional manual tilting of the package.
- thedance 7y agoI love how everyone is trying to second-guess this design, as if suddenly they are the experts. People have been using these to ship big expensive stuff for decades. You aren't going to find the big obvious flaw, nerds.
- bravoetch 7y agoWhat makes you think that being around for decades makes it impervious to being hacked? You're on hackernews.
- thedance 7y agoBecause trucking isn't Uber. The company that is shipping out million-dollar medical automation robots calls the same trucking company every day. If they ever found out that the sensors had been tampered with, and it would be obvious right away, then the robot people would never hire those truckers again. That's your reputation. In real life, that's how people do business. The real world is not a big puzzle.
- katmannthree 7y agoExactly this. Not to mention shippers often apply two sets of these, one on the outside for deterrent purposes and a second set inside the equipment that they'll verify before signing off that it was received.
- bravoetch 7y agoI agree. But the situation you describe does not address possible weaknesses in the sticker design.
- jessaustin 7y agoIf the shipper doesn't want to have to deal with it, a pinhole with some cyanoacrylate will keep the ball in place, and will be very difficult to notice. Resetting it after a tilt will be much more challenging.
- sigmaprimus 7y agoJust curious if anyone knows the price of these? I wonder if an MPU6050 tied to an attiny micro would be cheaper. Of course part of the value in the posted indicator is the resulting better (less rough) handling of a shipper that sees the monitoring device. A good example of this phenomenon is the article posted on HN a few months back about bicycle companies shipping their bikes in TV boxes resulting in significantly less damage.
- freepor 7y agoThey’re about $5 each. An electronic solution would probably be similar cost at scale, but ultimately easier to tamper with by hacking it, etc. These have been used for decades and are pretty close to tamper proof.
- dmurray 7y agoThe electronic one could measure some other things, though. Like how long it spent in a tipped-over state, or what time it was tipped over so you know which shipper to blame.
- sigmaprimus 7y agoI guess it was actually a few years ago..time flies!! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19008470 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19008470
- exmadscientist 7y agoThere are electronic versions in the market already. About 10 years ago we used some from MSR [1] to monitor shipments of some very special objects with replacement costs well into six figures. And no, we didn't use just one... of anything. [1] https://www.msr.ch/en/ https://www.msr.ch/en/
- stordoff 7y agoI wonder if the simplicity/analog nature works in its favour here (even if cost is marginally more). "How did the ball _possibly_ get there if you didn't mishandle it?" vs. "I dunno, I guess your sensor must be broken".
- ramraj07 7y agoWe bought these and stuck them to some fairly expensive equipment crates when moving our lab. The movers got very annoyed and made us sign so many extra forms and take photographs. The entire move was insured as well,and I doubt they'd have agreed to take these crates otherwise
- myself248 7y ago> movers got very annoyed That speaks volumes.
- lisper 7y agoThere's a pretty serious problem indicated in the first comment: "These are a ripoff. I ordered an entire case of these and every single one of them was already used when they arrived in the mail." I think that comment was intend to be funny, but it does point out a serious problem: how do you ship these things to the end-user without triggering them?
- pensatoio 7y agoAddressed below https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22469900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22469900
- lisper 7y agoThanks.
- cryptonector 7y agoI think your comment was intended to be funny, but it does point out a serious problem: what to do with accidentally funny comments not meant to so be?
- floatrock 7y agoLaugh.
- bravoetch 7y agoLooks like to reset it you lay it flat and roll the balls to the small indentations.
- Arbalest 7y agoMore than one sticker in different planes.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- userbinator 7y agoI guess these are only used for very special applications, since I can't think of any consumer product that wouldn't survive being shipped in any spatial orientation; it's also easier to design packaging that ensures that, rather than add these detectors and deal with the damages. Shock, on the other hand, is far more damaging and harder to protect against.
- leetcrew 7y agolarge flatscreen TVs are quite vulnerable when laid sideways (even in the original packaging). the internal components are not designed to support their own weight in this orientation and can damage the screen.
- the_cat_kittles 7y agonothing like the most pretentious tech community on the web "discovering" stuff like this. lol
- janci 7y agoI remember having a toy like this where you had to put multiple balls to different holes by tilting and shaking.
- Psyladine 7y agoIt's a similar idea, where the balls start in the 'finished' position, and very little tolerance to being disturbed. Recreating that state would be more trouble than it's worth.
- fauria 7y agoVideo of the device working: https://youtu.be/y0cohIWAbpA https://youtu.be/y0cohIWAbpA tl;dr: it sticks to a package and has a tamper proof mechanisim to detect if it was inclined.
- GistNoesis 7y agoCan't you just flip the box on its side, so that the label is horizontal, then use static friction and tap it with little inclination like you would do with those maze-ball children games. To prevent this attack you could use two labels on two vertical orthogonal faces.
- lixtra 7y agoCan’t you tamper it with acoustic tweezers [1]? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_tweezers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_tweezers
- mattkrause 7y agoIgnoring the fact that delicate lab equipment is rarely found in warehouses.... Acoustic tweezers are usually meant to move much smaller particles (e.g., a cell), rather than big macroscopic things, though I think someone had a system that moved 1mm+ bits of foam.
- walrus01 7y agoThere are also things similar to this which show if the shipment has been frozen, or un-frozen. https://www.scigiene.com/TI0300 https://www.scigiene.com/TI0300
- eeZah7Ux 7y agoUnfortunately it's quite difficult to prove who tilted the devices in a court of law.
- SweetLlamaMyth 7y agoIn the chain of custody that is shipment, though, it IS easy to check for violated detectors before accepting custody of the package, and refusing to accept responsibility for it.
- amelius 7y agoOr just put a glass of water in the box. If the box is wet upon arrival (or looks as if it has been wet), don't accept it. This is better because with the tilt detection system you will not measure large vertical accelerations, which I suppose in most cases will also spoil the shipped product.
- Double_a_92 7y agoI would have to be ink, so you can't just dry the box. But even then they could siphon the ink out and put it back in shortly before delivery.
- amelius 7y agoPerhaps add a transparent window over the cardboard?
- gmiller123456 7y agoThe biggest issue with that is that it could damage/mark other items, so a shipper has a good reason not to agree to ship something protected that way.
- Hackbraten 7y agoUnrelated, but this reminds me of John Birges’s self-made bomb, which would explode if tilted. https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2009/august/a-byte-out-of-history-harveys-casino-bomb/the-extortion-note https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2009/august/a... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey%27s_Resort_Hotel_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey%27s_Resort_Hotel_bombin...
- jagged-chisel 7y agoHow are these shipped to folks who need to use them? Do they come with reset instructions? Looks like that 180-degree detector would be the worst to reset before applying the sticker.
- Doxin 7y agoSee those holes in the sticker? I imagine the piece of paper you peel off holds pins into place in there, preventing triggering until after the sticker is applied.
- jagged-chisel 7y agoI hadn’t realized those were holes. Makes sense.
- mooneater 7y agoSee the video https://spotsee.io/tilt/tiltwatch-plus https://spotsee.io/tilt/tiltwatch-plus