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As an Apple fanboy, I feel deeply conflicted to find Apple on the list and also Tim's approval & visit to one of the factories exploiting forced labor. I feel l

As an Apple fanboy, I feel deeply conflicted to find Apple on the list and also Tim's approval & visit to one of the factories exploiting forced labor. I feel like a hypocrite, who supports human rights abuses through forced labour. All the years I stubbornly rejected my friend's and colleague's criticism from the open source & linux community for being eccentric and making 'exaggerated' arguments, but now I am so deeply engrossed in the Apply ecosystem, that I fear a switch to some linux distribution would be unmanageable for me. Ironically I feel like a slave of Apple myself. What could I do tho? Switch to some other brand and then find out, that they operate with the same unethical behaviour!? I'm just deeply conflicted.

nyolfen 7y ago
advocate for policies that will return manufacturing to domestic factories
- aptidude187 7y ago
  Fantastic actionable advice, I heard that they assembled the trash can mac pro in Austin, Texas. Unfortunately not any longer tho, if I am not mistaken. Thank you for your advice!
- lopmotr 7y ago
  Out of the frying pan and into the fire? With it's wars causing the deaths of millions in the middle east and its excessive imprisonment of people for using near-harmless drugs, maybe the US is worse than China on human rights.
  - ab_testing 7y ago
    I am sorry you were downvoted. What you need to understand is that unlike China, the US spreads freedom. In the last two decades we have brought freedom to Afghanistan and Iraq.
- asdff 7y ago
  The demise of american manufacturing happened in lock step with environmental regulations. Turns out the only way to have a profitable manufacturing operation is to hire cheap and dump your waste into the water supply, as was done in every single industrialized american city. Maybe we should figure out how we focus less on making the most profit every quarter and more on how to establish sustainable industries that aren't going to look very profitable at all, and know that this lack of exponential profit isn't a bad thing. Advocating for a return of manufacturing is fruitless without this understanding coming to the business world first, and the only way to learn a lesson like this is to hold abusers of labor and the environment personally responsible. Calculate the environmental damage, calculate the damage to quality of life, and put the bill right on the executive who oversaw this behavior. Putting it on the company lets executives like this walk off scott-free to their next executive position while the company bankrupts and the working class involved with the company loose their livelihood; lessons aren't learned by going after companies. We have to hold executives directly accountable for their direct decision making.
fwipsy 7y ago
Maybe just don't buy any new hardware until/unless Apple addresses this. I expect that most of the forced labor goes towards hardware production, and I don't think that continuing to use Apple software makes you (any more) complicit.
- aptidude187 7y ago
  Thank you for your constructive input, this sounds very reasonable. I'll try to keep that in mind and will try to desist buying new hardware until Apple addresses this.
- paulcarroty 7y ago
  Purchasing used devices also good for ecology and don't support Apple/another vendor directly.
  - fwipsy 7y ago
    Yes, I do that myself! Might still make you complicit (edit: People may be more likely to buy Apple hardware if there's a stronger used market for them) to some extent, but less so, I guess.
Ididntdothis 7y ago
We need laws that prevent this stuff. If you avoid all companies that have connections with China then not many will be left to choose from. From a company’s point of view it’s also difficult to compete with others who deal with China. It’s similar to environmental rules. A single company can’t do much as long as it’s possible for others to keep polluting and be cheaper that way. One of government’s tasks is to level the playing field so everybody can compete while following the same rules. Same thing for workplace safety, child labor and a ton of other things. We need rules for acceptable standards
- aptidude187 7y ago
  You have a very nuanced and insightful perspective, thank you for educating and sharing!
  - 411111111111111 7y ago
    i sure hope thats sarcasm. he just threw out random thoughts with no actual way to achieve anything. laws cant actually to force multinational companies to do anything. how would they be enforced after all? you'd first need a world government for any laws to apply. and no chance of that happening within the foreseeable future.
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      You can force multinational corporations to do things by not allowing them into your own market if they don’t follow certain rules. The US does it all the time, so does Europe.
      - 411111111111111 7y ago
        > The US does it all the time, so does Europe. Please give me an example of a corporation getting serious issues from any government for actions they took on foreign soil.
        7y ago
lopmotr 7y ago
If you're an American paying taxes, you're already a hypocrite for funding their international wars. Either accept that you're the baddie and enjoy life, or actually stop being the baddie even if you have to make huge sacrifices far beyond choice of consumer product brands. But you don't get to have it both ways being virtuous while selfishly doing harm.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  I hear your pain but the average American citizen has no say or control over the war machine and many are actually against it. It's also not as easy as "stop paying your taxes" unless you're willing to give up being part of society and live as a social outcast (best case) or be taken to court and ruin yourself. Not paying taxes is only possible if you're already part of the system that made you. US citizens also are taxed on their income even they decide to live outside the US, so there is no escape for them if they disagree (and who would denounce their citizenship unless they're asylum seekers or political refugees). Don't hate the player, hate the game as they say.
apocalypstyx 7y ago
It's far from limited to one company (or even one country). We can't even have oatmeal at this point without it. https://www.ranker.com/list/companies-in-the-united-states-that-use-prison-labor/genevieve-carlton https://www.ranker.com/list/companies-in-the-united-states-t... https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strike-factory-labor https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strik...
flycaliguy 7y ago
I'm sorry to hear you feel like a slave working for Apple. You should reach out to the authors of this article and tell your story.
Melting_Harps 7y ago
Wow... you're really epitomizing the notion of 1st World problems here. If you're really that moved (and you really shouldn't be surprised after the Foxconn reveal), get a Pinebook and start playing with Linux Mint and go from there. Support Open hardware and Open source software on the side while still working with your old hardware until you realize that at this point the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could, this isn't the 90s anymore. I will say, though that if you do video editing that can be a hard one as even I still revert back to a Windows box for that, unfortunately. And I went all-in on Linux after XP in 2004ish.
- aptidude187 7y ago
  I'll check out the Pinebook and Linux Mint, thank you for the concrete suggestions! > at this point the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could, this isn't the 90s anymore. That's good to hear! I used Ubuntu in University for a short while and it seemed quite well developed, the problem was that I was bound to some tools that were only available on Windows/Mac, such that I couldn't adopt it as my main OS. Anyways I appreciate your constructive input, thanks.
  - asdff 7y ago
    You could always dual boot Windows if it's critical. You don't need a registration for windows 10. All it will do is put up a little disclaimer in the bottom right corner and occasionally nag you, but otherwise there is no reason to pay for Windows anymore.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  "the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could." Can you please stop spreading that myth? It is wrong, wrong, wrong. It will just lead to false expectations and then disappointment with linux. It is not only video-editing. What about audio? Qubase or FL studio? Nope. I like audacity, too. But it is not at all in the same league. Photoshop? No, gimp is not equal. And countless other professional software no one bothered to write linux versions, but quite some people need for their work. And how about driver support on laptops? It is a fckn* gamble and you are allmost allways worse with linux on a laptop, than with the windows drivers. I wish it would be different, than I could dump my chromebook for a real linux laptop that satisfy my use case (small, light, long batterie, no standby hickups) So yes, we need more people in open source software and hardware to change that for the better, but that won't work with false promises.
pergadad 7y ago
No need to dump all your devices in the trash. But look into a small transition whenever the door opens - eg when your iPhone breaks get a Fairphone or similar. When you tablet breaks maybe Shift has a new tablet out, etc. It's hard when you make it all or nothing - easy when you just go with the flow.
- asdff 7y ago
  Or buy your iphones used from craigslist, and ride your bike to the sale. That way you aren't contributing to further polluting the worlds oceans and the port of Los Angeles when the shipping container with your fairphone is received by the longshoreman.
asdff 7y ago
You could just buy used gear. Apple doesn't benefit from that purchase. Better to buy something that's already in existence in the local area where you live, than some new product from some supposedly ethical company that also requires turning natural resources into unrecyclable material via dirty energy and the generation of toxic waste.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  The resale market props up Apple retaiy prices and profits.
  - asdff 7y ago
    In what way?
WorldPeas 7y ago
I'll give you the answer I gave to myself and my apple-loving friends since 2015, grab yourself a dell(the xps ones are really nice, but I like a cheap laptop, so I went with a latitude e7280), then hackintosh it. It's a bit buggy, but that's better than having a company which is all but cooperative with repairs, constantly abuses human rights and makes laptops which break easily.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
0max 7y ago
This is why I apply a personal philosophy of "separation of powers" when it comes to browsers, operating systems and their ecosystems.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
totalZero 7y ago
Next time you buy a phone, consider a different brand. That's about all you can do. > Switch to some other brand and then find out, that they operate with the same unethical behaviour!? If you know that Person A has done a misdeed, that doesn't necessarily mean that Persons B and C have done the same thing.
microcolonel 7y ago
> I fear a switch to some linux distribution would be unmanageable for me. This seems like an extremely lazy approach to things. You don't get to say that you care about these issues if you won't do something mildly inconvenient, or adjust your career, when you become aware that you are profiting from fascist slave camps. If your job is in software development (other than iOS apps), there is generally only one reason you aren't using Linux (if that is an ethical improvement in your view) on a relatively humanely-manufactured device: your own unwillingness. If you are unsure of the relative ethical positions of other manufacturers, try to look. There are records of many of these things. You won't be perfect, but if you pay attention and act on your convictions then you are not being a hypocrite, and that's a start.

nyolfen 7y ago

advocate for policies that will return manufacturing to domestic factories

aptidude187 7y ago
Fantastic actionable advice, I heard that they assembled the trash can mac pro in Austin, Texas. Unfortunately not any longer tho, if I am not mistaken. Thank you for your advice!
lopmotr 7y ago
Out of the frying pan and into the fire? With it's wars causing the deaths of millions in the middle east and its excessive imprisonment of people for using near-harmless drugs, maybe the US is worse than China on human rights.
- ab_testing 7y ago
  I am sorry you were downvoted. What you need to understand is that unlike China, the US spreads freedom. In the last two decades we have brought freedom to Afghanistan and Iraq.
asdff 7y ago
The demise of american manufacturing happened in lock step with environmental regulations. Turns out the only way to have a profitable manufacturing operation is to hire cheap and dump your waste into the water supply, as was done in every single industrialized american city. Maybe we should figure out how we focus less on making the most profit every quarter and more on how to establish sustainable industries that aren't going to look very profitable at all, and know that this lack of exponential profit isn't a bad thing. Advocating for a return of manufacturing is fruitless without this understanding coming to the business world first, and the only way to learn a lesson like this is to hold abusers of labor and the environment personally responsible. Calculate the environmental damage, calculate the damage to quality of life, and put the bill right on the executive who oversaw this behavior. Putting it on the company lets executives like this walk off scott-free to their next executive position while the company bankrupts and the working class involved with the company loose their livelihood; lessons aren't learned by going after companies. We have to hold executives directly accountable for their direct decision making.

fwipsy 7y ago

Maybe just don't buy any new hardware until/unless Apple addresses this. I expect that most of the forced labor goes towards hardware production, and I don't think that continuing to use Apple software makes you (any more) complicit.

aptidude187 7y ago
Thank you for your constructive input, this sounds very reasonable. I'll try to keep that in mind and will try to desist buying new hardware until Apple addresses this.
paulcarroty 7y ago
Purchasing used devices also good for ecology and don't support Apple/another vendor directly.
- fwipsy 7y ago
  Yes, I do that myself! Might still make you complicit (edit: People may be more likely to buy Apple hardware if there's a stronger used market for them) to some extent, but less so, I guess.

Ididntdothis 7y ago

We need laws that prevent this stuff. If you avoid all companies that have connections with China then not many will be left to choose from. From a company’s point of view it’s also difficult to compete with others who deal with China. It’s similar to environmental rules. A single company can’t do much as long as it’s possible for others to keep polluting and be cheaper that way. One of government’s tasks is to level the playing field so everybody can compete while following the same rules. Same thing for workplace safety, child labor and a ton of other things. We need rules for acceptable standards

aptidude187 7y ago
You have a very nuanced and insightful perspective, thank you for educating and sharing!
- 411111111111111 7y ago
  i sure hope thats sarcasm. he just threw out random thoughts with no actual way to achieve anything. laws cant actually to force multinational companies to do anything. how would they be enforced after all? you'd first need a world government for any laws to apply. and no chance of that happening within the foreseeable future.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    You can force multinational corporations to do things by not allowing them into your own market if they don’t follow certain rules. The US does it all the time, so does Europe.
    - 411111111111111 7y ago
      > The US does it all the time, so does Europe. Please give me an example of a corporation getting serious issues from any government for actions they took on foreign soil.
      - 7y ago

lopmotr 7y ago

If you're an American paying taxes, you're already a hypocrite for funding their international wars. Either accept that you're the baddie and enjoy life, or actually stop being the baddie even if you have to make huge sacrifices far beyond choice of consumer product brands. But you don't get to have it both ways being virtuous while selfishly doing harm.

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
I hear your pain but the average American citizen has no say or control over the war machine and many are actually against it. It's also not as easy as "stop paying your taxes" unless you're willing to give up being part of society and live as a social outcast (best case) or be taken to court and ruin yourself. Not paying taxes is only possible if you're already part of the system that made you. US citizens also are taxed on their income even they decide to live outside the US, so there is no escape for them if they disagree (and who would denounce their citizenship unless they're asylum seekers or political refugees). Don't hate the player, hate the game as they say.

apocalypstyx 7y ago

It's far from limited to one company (or even one country). We can't even have oatmeal at this point without it. https://www.ranker.com/list/companies-in-the-united-states-that-use-prison-labor/genevieve-carlton https://www.ranker.com/list/companies-in-the-united-states-t... https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strike-factory-labor https://www.vox.com/2018/8/24/17768438/national-prison-strik...

flycaliguy 7y ago

I'm sorry to hear you feel like a slave working for Apple. You should reach out to the authors of this article and tell your story.

Melting_Harps 7y ago

Wow... you're really epitomizing the notion of 1st World problems here. If you're really that moved (and you really shouldn't be surprised after the Foxconn reveal), get a Pinebook and start playing with Linux Mint and go from there. Support Open hardware and Open source software on the side while still working with your old hardware until you realize that at this point the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could, this isn't the 90s anymore. I will say, though that if you do video editing that can be a hard one as even I still revert back to a Windows box for that, unfortunately. And I went all-in on Linux after XP in 2004ish.

aptidude187 7y ago
I'll check out the Pinebook and Linux Mint, thank you for the concrete suggestions! > at this point the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could, this isn't the 90s anymore. That's good to hear! I used Ubuntu in University for a short while and it seemed quite well developed, the problem was that I was bound to some tools that were only available on Windows/Mac, such that I couldn't adopt it as my main OS. Anyways I appreciate your constructive input, thanks.
- asdff 7y ago
  You could always dual boot Windows if it's critical. You don't need a registration for windows 10. All it will do is put up a little disclaimer in the bottom right corner and occasionally nag you, but otherwise there is no reason to pay for Windows anymore.
hutzlibu 7y ago
"the Linux ecosystem and its various distros can do just about everything Windows and Mac could." Can you please stop spreading that myth? It is wrong, wrong, wrong. It will just lead to false expectations and then disappointment with linux. It is not only video-editing. What about audio? Qubase or FL studio? Nope. I like audacity, too. But it is not at all in the same league. Photoshop? No, gimp is not equal. And countless other professional software no one bothered to write linux versions, but quite some people need for their work. And how about driver support on laptops? It is a fckn* gamble and you are allmost allways worse with linux on a laptop, than with the windows drivers. I wish it would be different, than I could dump my chromebook for a real linux laptop that satisfy my use case (small, light, long batterie, no standby hickups) So yes, we need more people in open source software and hardware to change that for the better, but that won't work with false promises.

pergadad 7y ago

No need to dump all your devices in the trash. But look into a small transition whenever the door opens - eg when your iPhone breaks get a Fairphone or similar. When you tablet breaks maybe Shift has a new tablet out, etc. It's hard when you make it all or nothing - easy when you just go with the flow.

asdff 7y ago
Or buy your iphones used from craigslist, and ride your bike to the sale. That way you aren't contributing to further polluting the worlds oceans and the port of Los Angeles when the shipping container with your fairphone is received by the longshoreman.

asdff 7y ago

You could just buy used gear. Apple doesn't benefit from that purchase. Better to buy something that's already in existence in the local area where you live, than some new product from some supposedly ethical company that also requires turning natural resources into unrecyclable material via dirty energy and the generation of toxic waste.

lonelappde 7y ago
The resale market props up Apple retaiy prices and profits.
- asdff 7y ago
  In what way?

WorldPeas 7y ago

I'll give you the answer I gave to myself and my apple-loving friends since 2015, grab yourself a dell(the xps ones are really nice, but I like a cheap laptop, so I went with a latitude e7280), then hackintosh it. It's a bit buggy, but that's better than having a company which is all but cooperative with repairs, constantly abuses human rights and makes laptops which break easily.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

0max 7y ago

This is why I apply a personal philosophy of "separation of powers" when it comes to browsers, operating systems and their ecosystems.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

totalZero 7y ago

Next time you buy a phone, consider a different brand. That's about all you can do. > Switch to some other brand and then find out, that they operate with the same unethical behaviour!? If you know that Person A has done a misdeed, that doesn't necessarily mean that Persons B and C have done the same thing.

microcolonel 7y ago

> I fear a switch to some linux distribution would be unmanageable for me. This seems like an extremely lazy approach to things. You don't get to say that you care about these issues if you won't do something mildly inconvenient, or adjust your career, when you become aware that you are profiting from fascist slave camps. If your job is in software development (other than iOS apps), there is generally only one reason you aren't using Linux (if that is an ethical improvement in your view) on a relatively humanely-manufactured device: your own unwillingness. If you are unsure of the relative ethical positions of other manufacturers, try to look. There are records of many of these things. You won't be perfect, but if you pay attention and act on your convictions then you are not being a hypocrite, and that's a start.