18 ms·

Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

732 points by ProAm 7y ago

CamelCaseName 7y ago
Wrong takeaway. If you're going to sell on Amazon, use FBA. A-z claims cannot be filed on FBA orders. If this is in fact your last sale on Amazon, and you no longer intend to do business with them, email Jeff@Amazon.com as a last resort. Keep in mind, that email should not be used lightly. Be succinct and stoic. Provide proof that you have done everything else to resolve the matter.
- politelemon 7y ago
  FBA = Fulfilment By Amazon https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/features-benefits.html https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/...
- GuardLlama 7y ago
  Meta takeaway, probably: A popular PetaPixel post that gets coverage on additional social platforms is your only form of recourse against Amazon.
  - asdfman123 7y ago
    Other meta takeaway: it's really easy to scam sellers on Amazon if you're unscrupulous.
  - 1024core 7y ago
    Real takeaway: Amazon doesn't give a shit.
  - three_seagrass 7y ago
    I told Amazon was going to post a video to social of the third bad delivery at my apartment. It was so comical because even Amazon had posted signs on our property telling the delivery drivers what not to do. Yet the drivers did exactly that right in front of the sign. The first two email complaints went unresponded to. After threatening to put on tiktok, I got a phone call from the regional director in charge of the deliveries within two days.
    - joemi 7y ago
      I don't think that was necessarily due to your threat. I've noticed that often the first one or two or even three messages about an issue that I send to Amazon seem to be answered by bots (or people following a poor script) and they miss the point of my message completely, each time, no matter how clear and exact I am.* It's only after multiple messages that a real (free-thinking) human seems to actually read it and respond appropriately. * I swear it seems like there's a simple algorithm that scans the message for trigger words and then chooses a response based solely on those trigger words. I've received responses to issues completely unrelated to my entire message, except for the fact that they're about something I briefly mentioned in an aside or something like that. It's horribly horribly frustrating, even when I know it's going to happen.
      - three_seagrass 7y ago
        No, the person who called me specifically said they were freaking out trying to get ahold of me because the social threat had caused the email I sent to be bounced around internally. She called me to talk me down from doing it and make reassurances, even though I had forgotten about it by that point. Because they only had my email address and building location, Amazon repeatedly called the property agency, who (stupidly) gave them my phone number and details.
- csours 7y ago
  Can you use FBA for one-off, used items?
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I've done FBA for used books, not sure about cameras.
  - CamelCaseName 7y ago
    You absolutely can.
  - giarc 7y ago
    You can, but you pay storage fees. So you have to consider whether your items are going to sell quick enough and warrant the storage fees.
  - astura 7y ago
    Yes
- lucasmullens 7y ago
  Does emailing the CEO really work? If I contact regular Amazon support, I end up talking to a bot presumably since their employee time is so valuable. But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal? Honestly asking, there might be some special team to go through the jeff@amazon.com emails.
  - fossuser 7y ago
    There's a history where people email Bezos and he'll forward that email along to someone responsible for that thing with a single '?'. [0] https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-just-confirmed-jeff-bezos-question-mark-method-that-scares-heck-out-of-everyone-at-amazon-heres-how-it-works.html https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-...
    - justsid 7y ago
      TIL: My boss works the exact same way as Jeff Bezos.
  - CamelCaseName 7y ago
    >Does emailing the CEO really work. ? Yes it does. It goes to his executive team. Granted, I haven't used that email in almost 2 years. I hear response time is way longer nowadays. >But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal? No, you'll get ignored if your issue is not substantial or if you haven't gone through every other possible method of resolution. This is the "supreme court" of Amazon support, akin to the Ombudsman's office.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    Lots of places have special teams to respond to the "CEO's emails".
  - zippergz 7y ago
    Regular Amazon customer service is not a bot, it is staffed by a large number of people. They aren't necessarily great (or empowered to be great), but they are humans. If you email the CEO, it goes to a team of people who handle those messages, not just to him personally. It's not guaranteed to work, but it sometimes does.
- jasd 7y ago
  It is unlikely that your email catches his(his team's) attention. However, if it does, rest assured that he will shake things up to fix the root cause of the issue and likely get the team to refund your money as well.
jseliger 7y ago
I can't imagine buying or selling most high-value items on Amazon: the buying side has already been covered in various places (https://seliger.com/2017/01/09/tools-continued-careful-buy-amazon/ https://seliger.com/2017/01/09/tools-continued-careful-buy-a...). I've sold cameras and lenses on Craigslist, which can have its own challenges, but never one as expensive as an A7R IV.
- koolba 7y ago
  At least on Craigslist you can restrict the sales to meatspace. Asking to meet on the steps of a police station does a great job of filtering out scammers.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    And you can ask for cash. They can’t ask for a refund of that.
    - cortesoft 7y ago
      Sucks as a buyer though, if the item turns out to have issues (or it was stolen).
  - wozniacki 7y ago
    I haven't listed on CL in a while and was surprised they started charging flat rates for even listing small gigs. ( ~ $10 ) Are those local-selling apps any better in quality of transactions? Letgo, Offerup etc.?
  - csharptwdec19 7y ago
    Yep. When I used to sell bikes/parts on CL, my rule was anything over 200$ I would only do in-person and locally (Besides, any full bikes in that price are probably too expensive to ship.) And frankly, If it's something you have a hobby doing, you can wind up meeting some people who share your interests. When I sold a Mountain Bike to a guy we wound up meeting in front of a CVS and just shot the shit for a good half hour after the sale.
jfim 7y ago
Wouldn't that be a good small claims court case? There's good documentation that the item has been shipped, and the seller is out of both the money and the camera.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  But when you use Amazon you agree to binding arbitration...
  - forrestthewoods 7y ago
    OP should go through arbitration and blog the process/result.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      Presumably there's an NDA involved.
    - kyleblarson 7y ago
      TOS likely also stipulate an NDA
  - qwertox 7y ago
    But wouldn't this become an issue between the seller and the buyer, if Amazon is "just adhering" to what is stipulated in the contract? To me this sounds like Amazon is saying "this is too complicated for us, and we don't see how to deal with it, because we don't know who's telling the truth". Like "If you've got a problem and a case, go to the police; not against us, but against the buyer".
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      Hmm, my first thought is: contacting a buyer outside of Amazon is against Amazon's TOS. But if the author isn't interested in using Amazon after this incident, Amazon's TOS don't matter much. I'd be interested to hear from someone with a bit more legal knowledge how this might go. It's a good thought for sure.
deadmetheny 7y ago
Sounds about right. Amazon's return policies have always heavily favored customers, even after creating the marketplace.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  No, especially after creating the marketplace. Before that Amazon would had a much stronger incentive to treat the customers and themselves in a more balanced way.
crmrc114 7y ago
Did you sell it as used? If you opened the package and touched the product it can no longer be sold as new. I have called out sellers on this crap before and gotten my money back. When I order new I expect a factory sealed box. (Also illegal in the US https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1 ) So assuming you sold this as used, that sucks I feel for you. However if your one of those scumbags who sells used things on Amazon as new I have no sympathy and I would happily report you for my money back. (I have encountered this maybe twice in all the electronics I buy on Amazon) If you want to sell used things you have opened, flag them as such on Amazon or go to Ebay. I buy from both places and will always take a deal on a cheaper gently used item if its disclosed up front. Edit: For clarity, FTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
- jacquesm 7y ago
  That could very well be but then the 'buyer' should return the goods.
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    They tried and seller denied the return, against Amazon policy.
- OrgNet 7y ago
  > I sold a mint-in-box Sony a7R 4
  - crmrc114 7y ago
    RTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
    - 7y ago
abbot2 7y ago
I totally get the frustration and such, and not trying to protect Amazon, but: author's web site intercepting browser history to trigger "checkout this content before you leave" when back navigation is clicked is outright evil. Just don't do that, be kind to visitors. Edit: 1. Dictionary: evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant 2. To get the prompt you need to stay around on the page for a while, scroll around, pretend to read it. Triggers at least in mobile chrome browser.
- draw_down 7y ago
  Come on.
- unreal37 7y ago
  Let's have some perspective on what "outright evil" really is. You didn't get hurt by this.
  - abbot2 7y ago
    evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      It only reaches 'evil' when you hit a certain threshold. Google (ha) has a better definition: profoundly immoral and wicked
- Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
  I did not get that prompt. I even tried disabling my ad blocker and did not get that prompt. EDIT: Also, I think "outright evil" is a bit strong. A dark pattern for sure, but not quite evil.
  - abbot2 7y ago
    Try staying on the page for a while and scroll around. Pretend to read it. Triggers for me on mobile chrome browser.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
matsemann 7y ago
Not the first time Amazon is on blast here for expensive camera gear scams: I Fell Victim to a $1,500 Used Camera Lens Scam on Amazon [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216
- CamelCaseName 7y ago
  Unfortunately, there are plenty of categories that are absolute breeding grounds for scammers. Camera lenses is definitely one of them. As a general rule, if the main differentiating feature of the product is hard to verify, or if the product is expensive and easy to resell, stay away.
ebaySucks123 7y ago
I had the same exact experience the last time I sold on ebay, in 2017. I sold an $800 item. One day before the claim window closed, the buyer filed a claim saying it had never arrived and claiming they emailed me several times and I never responded. I submitted proof of delivery from UPS and pointed out the simple fact that I had received no messages from the buyer through ebay messaging. Ebay gave them a full refund and refused to speak to me about it. When I called them and waited on hold for several hours, they literally just hung up on me. I closed my ebay and paypal accounts and I’ll never use them again.
- JoshGlazebrook 7y ago
  I have a similar story. I sold a brand new iPhone to someone on eBay who claimed it was reported as stolen and was not able to be used. Paypal refunded the buyer, and allowed them to keep the phone. Paypal account went negative, their internal collections started calling every day right away even though it was in dispute. Even after providing proof that the IMEI was not reported as stolen, and them waiting weeks for the buyer to provide any proof (they didn't), they still sided with the buyer. I called for weeks, and finally after about two months, somehow the person on the phone was able to just issue a refund. I've not sold anything on Ebay since. On top of that, when I had an issue with buying something through paypal, they used that ^ instance as a negative against me while on the phone. "Well I see you sold a stolen iPhone in the past..." was not something I was expecting to hear.
  - kderbyma 7y ago
    I assume you reported the phone stolen afterwards correct?
    - PaulWaldman 7y ago
      To whom would you report the phone as stolen?
      - Can_Not 7y ago
milankragujevic 7y ago
Similar thing happened to me with PayPal, buyer got to keep the item, and got a refund (by doing a chargeback on their CC) and I got billed the amount + 15% of fees and punishment. I provided exhausting proof of delivery and that there was no contact or complaints from the buyer, but they didn't care. They said, since it's a chargeback, they HAVE to give them their money back. The buyer was a client of Commonwealth Bank of Australia. Ironically, when I tried doing a chargeback on a transaction as a buyer, I got denied after waiting for 30 days for a reply, and had to pay a fee for an "untruthful claim". The bank is Erste Bank in Serbia. In my opinion my claim was valid, as the seller did not reply to me at all.
- nicolas_t 7y ago
  Interestingly about chargeback, I've noticed the same. I tried to file a chargeback with my bank in France and got denied despite it being a valid claim and me providing all the documentation for it. But, when I used my US credit card to file a chargeback it went through fine and there was no issue. I wonder if some countries are more lax with charge backs?
  - nulbyte 7y ago
    Some merchants certainly are. And in GP's case, PayPal might be playing the role of merchant, since they technically took the payment. I wonder if they just offer refunds to avoid having to accept chargebacks as such.
    - milankragujevic 7y ago
      Yes, PayPal is the merchant, and as the CSR in the Ireland call center explained to me, they HAVE to issue the refund, or they risk extreme fines (the representative also told me PayPal could "lose the license to accept payments", but I doubt that, given their size. Regular merchants would, but PayPal is too valuable, so it would just get extreme fines and higher processing fees).
      - 7y ago
tus88 7y ago
There is no perfect system that protects buyers and sellers. Change the rules and buyers will be complaining. The reason it is skewed towards buyers is: 1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living). 2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller). 3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak. The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.
- freepor 7y ago
  A seller can absorb fraud when they’re doing hundreds or thousands of transactions. If each person is doing one transaction the people hit will have life altering consequences for some items.
  - Paul-ish 7y ago
    I wonder if seller insurance is viable. Pay $50 for an item, company does a background check on the seller and maybe does escrow.
    - dannyw 7y ago
      I sell on eBay, but I cancel purchases from buyers with dodgy reputations. If someone has been an eBay buyer since 2006 wih 240 positive buyer feedback and 0 negative; they're probably not going to defraud me.
      - Nextgrid 7y ago
        When I tried to sell something on eBay I had plenty of scam messages from old, reputable-looking accounts. The accounts were presumably compromised. Worse, eBay sent warning messages claiming that the accounts were suspected of being compromised, so the scum company knows it and still doesn’t block the accounts.
node1 7y ago
I have heard many stories online where customers bought new graphic cards/cpus/camera gear from 'Sold by Amazon.com' but instead receive used ones. Or receive different cheaper (older generation) products. It does not seem to be a good place to buy or sell expensive items.
- monomad1 7y ago
  I bought a lamp for a rear projection tv a couple years ago. It burned out after a month. Amazon let me return it, but charged a restocking fee. That would've been fine, but I haven't been able to review the product for over a year now. Fuck amazon - newegg is cheaper anyway.
  - undersuit 7y ago
    Newegg has problems too. All my friends have RMA horror stories with them, mine is having to pay $50 and shipping because the plastic PCI-E retention clip broke when I was disassembling my new computer with DOA motherboard for an RMA. Also, Newegg gave up on maintaining their reliable filtering tools for third party sellers.
    - axaxs 7y ago
      Mine is returning a phone, and having them ask for my Gmail password three times. Maybe it's my fault I didn't disassociate something prior to factory reset, but the phone was fine. And new. They claimed they couldn't complete the return until they had full access. That alone tells me they are selling used phones as new. After I refused, they told me to just change it to something temporarily so they could log in. I demanded the phone back, and promptly donated it as is.
      - Can_Not 7y ago
        No, it's not your fault, Google gives you zero warning that factory resetting will lock out the next user.
      - 7y ago
freepor 7y ago
Ultimately when you mail something there is no way to prove what you mailed. You can mail a brick and say it was a camera or you can mail a camera and the buyer can say it was a brick. There’s an opportunity here for companies with big real estate footprints like UPS store or Office Depot to offer verified shipping and/or receiving, where you hand them the items and they pack them up and ship them with a certification of what’s inside.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  Good but not scam-proof, there can be a brick in a camera case in a box. The verified shipping says camera in a box. I don't really mean brick here but the item could be a defective item, a different model or something the verification process could miss.
  - davchana 7y ago
    The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are verifying what we saw. A camera box with X pounds of weight. If seller wants them to verify the inside contents, he needs to Show them the inside contents. Then UPS will be confirming by photos that yes, an item with this serial number is there inside and we packed it. Its kind of slippery slope. What if its just a empty camera body? What is its a junk camera? What if buyer says these above falsely?
- zxcmx 7y ago
  That would be great and raise the bar, but the same dispute issues would exist, just with authenticity of goods. Scammy buyer would purchase say, 32GB sticks of RAM and ship back 1GB sticks with the stickers swapped.
saurik 7y ago
Is Amazon even supposed to be a reasonable place for small scale sellers to try to operate? The entire mechanism of credit cards and large scale markets is based on the idea that you reduce user friction in order to get more sales en aggregate. Can you imagine Best Buy caring "Visa let a fraudster keep the refrigerator they purchased from us and even refunded them $3000"? Something like that probably happens every week. If you care about every individual sale you need entirely different sales apparatus and pipeline than something like Amazon, for whom we have also heard stories recently here on HN of them shipping multiple items to someone and just telling the customer not to bother returning it as it will be more trouble for everyone than it is really worth it to them.
freepor 7y ago
If reading this story makes your blood boil, and you need some catharsis, there’s a story online that I can’t find right now about a guy who went to the address of the fraudster and beat him with a piece of rebar giving him a permanent limp.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  Maybe that was an innocent person. Scammers are known to use other people's addresses, they know when the person is not at home and when the package arrives and just go loot it.
- stordoff 7y ago
  I'm not sure in what world fraud is equivalent to a permanent debilitating injury, but even if it it was, that doesn't make it right. And even if it did, how do you know it's the right person? There are 5 people in my house (and I regularly ship things to other addresses). Do you just pick one and hope for the best?
canada_dry 7y ago
This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper would get an extra fee. For high value items (i.e. like OP's camera) it would certainly be in everyone's best interest and platforms like ebay, Facebook, Amazon could insist that all parties use this type of service or relinquish their ability to dispute. Too over simplified??
- dharmab 7y ago
  Isn't this a form of escrow service? Those are sometimes used when buying very expensive items via auction/real world.
  - mjevans 7y ago
    Sounds closer to a notory service combined with shipping and insurance to me.
  - briandear 7y ago
    That’s exactly what this is.
  - canada_dry 7y ago
    > Isn't this a form of escrow service? Sort of, except the agent wouldn't be handling (receive and/or disburse) money. They just certify and record a part of the transaction (i.e. shipment).
- giarc 7y ago
  At a Purolator (Canadian retailer) mailing centre near me, they have this system that weighs the box but also measures the dimensions. The whole rig is ceiling mounted (while the scale is on a counter). I suspect like this could also incorporate a camera that takes a photo of the inside contents.
sevenf0ur 7y ago
> If you’re going to sell on Amazon or elsewhere, take an actual video of you packing the camera. You need all the defense you can get against items mysteriously disappearing. Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? One could just unpack the box right after filming.
- wtallis 7y ago
  > Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? No, of course not. Buyer didn't provide any details about what was missing or what was received. This isn't a level he-said/she-said, it's one party being forthcoming and the other evasive. Both parties had equal opportunity to lie, but only one put in effort to appear honest. Amazon should at least hold their scammers to a higher standard.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
    I think the parent comment meant in the general sense, not this specific case.
- _underfl0w_ 7y ago
  I think this every time someone suggests filming part of the transaction. Nowhere does video of an action imply that it was not immediately undone right after filming.
  - lstamour 7y ago
    But the same might be true if you filmed the entire transaction. The only way you’d have proof is if you hand deliver it the entire way and as you validate with the buyer that everything works at that point and the transaction is over. Even then, the third-party holding the funds in escrow has to be satisfied or you could have a buyer disagree and say that was a different transaction than the one it applied to, a different camera...
  - Can_Not 7y ago
    Just roll the camera all the way to the mail drop.
akurilin 7y ago
Startup idea: create a high quality camera gear buying and selling experience for the web, with many protections and conveniences built in. Selling your gear on Craigslist and meeting with random strangers at McDonald's and Starbucks is pretty much the only real alternative right now and gets old pretty fast. This was an issue for music gear too, but somehow reverb.com managed to address it and make it a pretty painless experience. Their customer service is excellent, and if one of the two parties are unsatisfied, they'll intervene and try to find a compromise. They send you boxes to ship your gear in, they set up shipping for you, they automatically track the shipment as it gets picked up etc. I've been hoping to find something similar for camera gear, but have had no luck so far. The only downside is that the prosumer camera equipment world seems to be rapidly shrinking, so it might be not a great idea to step into this space right now. Whereas there doesn't seem to be a dearth of people buying guitars, drum kit pieces and effects pedals.
- y2bd 7y ago
  Keh (https://www.keh.com/ https://www.keh.com/) is sort of like this, except that they function more like a second-hand shop--you sell them your gear, and they hold inventory that other people can buy, meaning you never actually interact with the eventual buyer. Because of this though, I imagine they take a larger cut than Reverb does (and certainly more than eBay). As a buyer I've had zero problems with Keh the couple of times I've used them.
  - akurilin 7y ago
    I've gotten quotes through a few of these sites in the past, and I was getting at best 50-70% of the value I would have gotten by selling in person through CL. I imagine it's in part because you ship it over to them, they have to inspect the items etc. I think those services can be useful for buyers, but sellers who want to get the most for their gear will avoid them. Like you said, something like Reverb could compete on taking a smaller cut.
    - mcyukon 7y ago
      Yeah its a good concept and I would love an easy, secure way to sell items however they are quoting $965 USD for my Nikon Z6 which is out-of box new and retails for $1,996.95 USD. That's pretty hard to swallow. For that I'll put in the time to sell it locally, meet and try in person, cash only.
hrdwdmrbl 7y ago
Amazon is awful for sellers. Buyers can return items used, including underwear and single-use items as well. There are no question asked. A person could live their life buying toilet paper from Amazon, using it, and then literally returning it and Amazon would never stop this behavior. The same goes with clothing or anything else you can use within the return window provided by Amazon.
BooneJS 7y ago
I got ripped off on eBay where the fraudster kept my gas RC car and got the refund. It was only $300, but I haven’t sold anything on the internet that I wouldn’t be uncomfortable giving away since.
durpleDrank 7y ago
Amazon FBA is a joke. I tried it for a year. Experienced a couple of instances like OP. Customer service at Amazon is an ineffective joke when it comes to these matters as well. Fees are too high etc. Believe the hype of YouTube "entrepreneurs" at your own peril.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
allovernow 7y ago
Similar story on eBay. I shipped ≈10k worth of goods to a buyer. He tore a hole in the box and claimed half of the contents were missing, after signing for the package. Despite this eBay refunded his money and refused to listen to our story until we took it to Twitter and pinged some high level manager.
heavyset_go 7y ago
I'm getting ads that state if I buy the ad-purchaser's product on Amazon and leave a good review, they'll refund my money. Basically, they're ads that say "Free [Product]!" and when you click them, they ask you to purchase the product, leave a positive review and then they'll refund you. I tried to look for a way to report the seller to Amazon, but from what I found, I need to have a seller account with Amazon to do so, which I don't. As a customer, I can't report the product without buying it first. Does anyone have a link or email I can use to reach out to someone at Amazon about this? Some of these products have thousands of positive reviews[1]. I find it misleading, and to be a nuisance to consumers who rely on these reviews to guide their purchases. I don't know why Amazon makes it so difficult to report these fraud schemes. Since I found it difficult to reach out to Amazon, I reported the seller to my state Attorney General's consumer protection division and to the FTC. Since then, I've gotten even more ads like this, and I don't have the time to report them all to agencies that may or may not follow up on my reports. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NRGR9LL https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NRGR9LL
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  jeff@amazon.com
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    Yeah, this is the email that a lot of the Quora-esque answers have. The product I put in my OP is still up with the reviews, despite sending a message containing the link + evidence to that address. I was hoping for a way to reach out to a real human being, and it doesn't seem like that address is the way to do it. But thanks anyway.
ikeboy 7y ago
>I denied the return. And that's your problem. If you deny a return within the return period, you're in violation of Amazon policy, and the A-Z team will rightly rule against you. The correct response is to accept the return, then deny a refund after it comes back to you because it wasn't sent back with the same accessories you sent it with.
- lukevdp 7y ago
  I came here to say this also. You can’t reject the return, you need to accept it and then it’s on the buyer to return the item to you. If it comes back with parts missing, you can do a partial refund. Buyer can still do an A-Z claim, but you’re in a much stronger position, especially if you have proof of how you sent it and how you received it.
- scottlamb 7y ago
  Why do they have a "violate policy and eventually lose dispute" button then?
  - ikeboy 7y ago
    Frankly, because the team that sets policy is different from the team that makes the buttons. The policy has lots of exceptions - e.g. some categories can't be returned, like groceries. To disable that button, they'd have to check for all the exceptions and constantly update it whenever a policy changed. They did change to automatically approving returns a few years ago, but with an opt-out ability. My guess is either OP's product fell into an obscure exception to that rule, or OP opted out, or something similar.
    - hackme1234 7y ago
      The teams need to collaborate more then. This still seems like a design failure
      - malka 7y ago
        seems like something done on purpose to fuck people.
bitxbit 7y ago
Paypal is not a good solution for secondary markets. I wish someone would start a payment company specifically focused on P2P where you can have escrows and third-party reviews for expensive items. Instead of sending your item directly to a buyer, you send it to a third-party who then signs off on it. I am sure people will gladly pay 5% fee to get that peace of mind.
TravelTechGuy 7y ago
Sad story, though not uncommon. I heard many eBay horror stories involving buyers' scams. Frankly, selling anything on Amazon is crazy. But if you do have to, vet your buyer. Look at their previous purchases and feedbacks. Avoid the quick deal that will blow in your face. The bottom line is that eBay (and Amazon too) are more focused on the buyers. Buying on eBay is great, because you have 100% buyer protection. There's no seller protection at all. I'd recommend sticking to either local selling apps (like Craigslist etc.) where you can verify the buyer (though stay safe and do it somewhere public), or through online communities that manage access and feedbacks (there are several on Reddit and Facebook).
- city41 7y ago
  I was surprised the article mentioned eBay as a better alternative as a seller. It really isn’t, eBay will side with the buyer pretty much every time.
laurentdc 7y ago
Similar thing happened to me with eBay and PayPal. I sold a Marantz CD player, well packaged, took plenty of pictures. Buyer claimed that the RCA connectors were "slightly bent" (he refused to send pictures of that - but it's a normal thing, there's some PCB flex) and that there was a scratch on a certain side that I hadn't photographed, using this to imply that I wanted to hide the scratch. I offered him to return the item even at my expense, he refused. He threatened of negative feedback, made a claim with PayPal and got half the amount back pretty much instantly, and kept the item of course. Since this I've decided that when I don't need something anymore I'm just better off donating it or simply trashing it. Dealing with dishonest buyers and everyone siding with them by default is just not worth the hassle.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
neycoda 7y ago
Wow, looks like a great way to get free stuff on Amazon!
themagician 7y ago
Funny that everyone assumes the buyer is the thief. I’ve had FedEx steak from me twice. Caught both times, but only because I really pressed the issue.
Schnitz 7y ago
Amazon is as fraud ridden as eBay at this point.
hartator 7y ago
Well his blog hijacked my browser history. Injecting the homepage of his blog. Which is not appreciable.
ornornor 7y ago
> Investigate more even-handed selling services, like eBay, Fred Miranda, or other online retailers. I do t know what Fred Miranda is, but eBay will also always side with the buyer.
malka 7y ago
> 2020 > trust Amazon ?????
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Bottom line: the buyer can claim that a lot of things are missing, item is broken, scratched etc and since there's no definite proof (for example: you can video...but then remove items before shipping) Amazon has chosen to trust the buyers. As others pointed out an outside party might be needed to keep both sides honest, but otherwise Amazon has to trust one side...
tolidano 7y ago
Step 1: only sell the body, a single item. Keep the rest.

732 points by ProAm 7y ago

Wrong takeaway. If you're going to sell on Amazon, use FBA. A-z claims cannot be filed on FBA orders. If this is in fact your last sale on Amazon, and you no longer intend to do business with them, email Jeff@Amazon.com as a last resort. Keep in mind, that email should not be used lightly. Be succinct and stoic. Provide proof that you have done everything else to resolve the matter.

politelemon 7y ago
FBA = Fulfilment By Amazon https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/features-benefits.html https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/...
GuardLlama 7y ago
Meta takeaway, probably: A popular PetaPixel post that gets coverage on additional social platforms is your only form of recourse against Amazon.
- asdfman123 7y ago
  Other meta takeaway: it's really easy to scam sellers on Amazon if you're unscrupulous.
- 1024core 7y ago
  Real takeaway: Amazon doesn't give a shit.
- three_seagrass 7y ago
  I told Amazon was going to post a video to social of the third bad delivery at my apartment. It was so comical because even Amazon had posted signs on our property telling the delivery drivers what not to do. Yet the drivers did exactly that right in front of the sign. The first two email complaints went unresponded to. After threatening to put on tiktok, I got a phone call from the regional director in charge of the deliveries within two days.
  - joemi 7y ago
    I don't think that was necessarily due to your threat. I've noticed that often the first one or two or even three messages about an issue that I send to Amazon seem to be answered by bots (or people following a poor script) and they miss the point of my message completely, each time, no matter how clear and exact I am.* It's only after multiple messages that a real (free-thinking) human seems to actually read it and respond appropriately. * I swear it seems like there's a simple algorithm that scans the message for trigger words and then chooses a response based solely on those trigger words. I've received responses to issues completely unrelated to my entire message, except for the fact that they're about something I briefly mentioned in an aside or something like that. It's horribly horribly frustrating, even when I know it's going to happen.
    - three_seagrass 7y ago
      No, the person who called me specifically said they were freaking out trying to get ahold of me because the social threat had caused the email I sent to be bounced around internally. She called me to talk me down from doing it and make reassurances, even though I had forgotten about it by that point. Because they only had my email address and building location, Amazon repeatedly called the property agency, who (stupidly) gave them my phone number and details.
csours 7y ago
Can you use FBA for one-off, used items?
- kube-system 7y ago
  I've done FBA for used books, not sure about cameras.
- CamelCaseName 7y ago
  You absolutely can.
- giarc 7y ago
  You can, but you pay storage fees. So you have to consider whether your items are going to sell quick enough and warrant the storage fees.
- astura 7y ago
  Yes
lucasmullens 7y ago
Does emailing the CEO really work? If I contact regular Amazon support, I end up talking to a bot presumably since their employee time is so valuable. But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal? Honestly asking, there might be some special team to go through the jeff@amazon.com emails.
- fossuser 7y ago
  There's a history where people email Bezos and he'll forward that email along to someone responsible for that thing with a single '?'. [0] https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-just-confirmed-jeff-bezos-question-mark-method-that-scares-heck-out-of-everyone-at-amazon-heres-how-it-works.html https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/5-years-later-jeff-bezos-...
  - justsid 7y ago
    TIL: My boss works the exact same way as Jeff Bezos.
- CamelCaseName 7y ago
  >Does emailing the CEO really work. ? Yes it does. It goes to his executive team. Granted, I haven't used that email in almost 2 years. I hear response time is way longer nowadays. >But I can just hit up Jeff like it's no big deal? No, you'll get ignored if your issue is not substantial or if you haven't gone through every other possible method of resolution. This is the "supreme court" of Amazon support, akin to the Ombudsman's office.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  Lots of places have special teams to respond to the "CEO's emails".
- zippergz 7y ago
  Regular Amazon customer service is not a bot, it is staffed by a large number of people. They aren't necessarily great (or empowered to be great), but they are humans. If you email the CEO, it goes to a team of people who handle those messages, not just to him personally. It's not guaranteed to work, but it sometimes does.
jasd 7y ago
It is unlikely that your email catches his(his team's) attention. However, if it does, rest assured that he will shake things up to fix the root cause of the issue and likely get the team to refund your money as well.

jseliger 7y ago

I can't imagine buying or selling most high-value items on Amazon: the buying side has already been covered in various places (https://seliger.com/2017/01/09/tools-continued-careful-buy-amazon/ https://seliger.com/2017/01/09/tools-continued-careful-buy-a...). I've sold cameras and lenses on Craigslist, which can have its own challenges, but never one as expensive as an A7R IV.

koolba 7y ago
At least on Craigslist you can restrict the sales to meatspace. Asking to meet on the steps of a police station does a great job of filtering out scammers.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  And you can ask for cash. They can’t ask for a refund of that.
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    Sucks as a buyer though, if the item turns out to have issues (or it was stolen).
- wozniacki 7y ago
  I haven't listed on CL in a while and was surprised they started charging flat rates for even listing small gigs. ( ~ $10 ) Are those local-selling apps any better in quality of transactions? Letgo, Offerup etc.?
- csharptwdec19 7y ago
  Yep. When I used to sell bikes/parts on CL, my rule was anything over 200$ I would only do in-person and locally (Besides, any full bikes in that price are probably too expensive to ship.) And frankly, If it's something you have a hobby doing, you can wind up meeting some people who share your interests. When I sold a Mountain Bike to a guy we wound up meeting in front of a CVS and just shot the shit for a good half hour after the sale.

jfim 7y ago

Wouldn't that be a good small claims court case? There's good documentation that the item has been shipped, and the seller is out of both the money and the camera.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago
But when you use Amazon you agree to binding arbitration...
- forrestthewoods 7y ago
  OP should go through arbitration and blog the process/result.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    Presumably there's an NDA involved.
  - kyleblarson 7y ago
    TOS likely also stipulate an NDA
- qwertox 7y ago
  But wouldn't this become an issue between the seller and the buyer, if Amazon is "just adhering" to what is stipulated in the contract? To me this sounds like Amazon is saying "this is too complicated for us, and we don't see how to deal with it, because we don't know who's telling the truth". Like "If you've got a problem and a case, go to the police; not against us, but against the buyer".
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    Hmm, my first thought is: contacting a buyer outside of Amazon is against Amazon's TOS. But if the author isn't interested in using Amazon after this incident, Amazon's TOS don't matter much. I'd be interested to hear from someone with a bit more legal knowledge how this might go. It's a good thought for sure.

deadmetheny 7y ago

Sounds about right. Amazon's return policies have always heavily favored customers, even after creating the marketplace.

jacquesm 7y ago
No, especially after creating the marketplace. Before that Amazon would had a much stronger incentive to treat the customers and themselves in a more balanced way.

crmrc114 7y ago

Did you sell it as used? If you opened the package and touched the product it can no longer be sold as new. I have called out sellers on this crap before and gotten my money back. When I order new I expect a factory sealed box. (Also illegal in the US https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/20.1 ) So assuming you sold this as used, that sucks I feel for you. However if your one of those scumbags who sells used things on Amazon as new I have no sympathy and I would happily report you for my money back. (I have encountered this maybe twice in all the electronics I buy on Amazon) If you want to sell used things you have opened, flag them as such on Amazon or go to Ebay. I buy from both places and will always take a deal on a cheaper gently used item if its disclosed up front. Edit: For clarity, FTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?

jacquesm 7y ago
That could very well be but then the 'buyer' should return the goods.
- ikeboy 7y ago
  They tried and seller denied the return, against Amazon policy.
OrgNet 7y ago
> I sold a mint-in-box Sony a7R 4
- crmrc114 7y ago
  RTA > "To this day, I have no idea what he claimed was “missing” from the package. I even included all the original plastic wrap!" He opened a factory box and unwrapped the product. How else would he photograph all the parts with the kit?
  - 7y ago

abbot2 7y ago

I totally get the frustration and such, and not trying to protect Amazon, but: author's web site intercepting browser history to trigger "checkout this content before you leave" when back navigation is clicked is outright evil. Just don't do that, be kind to visitors. Edit: 1. Dictionary: evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant 2. To get the prompt you need to stay around on the page for a while, scroll around, pretend to read it. Triggers at least in mobile chrome browser.

draw_down 7y ago
Come on.
unreal37 7y ago
Let's have some perspective on what "outright evil" really is. You didn't get hurt by this.
- abbot2 7y ago
  evil, adj.: morally bad, cruel, or very unpleasant
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    It only reaches 'evil' when you hit a certain threshold. Google (ha) has a better definition: profoundly immoral and wicked
Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
I did not get that prompt. I even tried disabling my ad blocker and did not get that prompt. EDIT: Also, I think "outright evil" is a bit strong. A dark pattern for sure, but not quite evil.
- abbot2 7y ago
  Try staying on the page for a while and scroll around. Pretend to read it. Triggers for me on mobile chrome browser.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

matsemann 7y ago

Not the first time Amazon is on blast here for expensive camera gear scams: I Fell Victim to a $1,500 Used Camera Lens Scam on Amazon [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216

CamelCaseName 7y ago
Unfortunately, there are plenty of categories that are absolute breeding grounds for scammers. Camera lenses is definitely one of them. As a general rule, if the main differentiating feature of the product is hard to verify, or if the product is expensive and easy to resell, stay away.

ebaySucks123 7y ago

I had the same exact experience the last time I sold on ebay, in 2017. I sold an $800 item. One day before the claim window closed, the buyer filed a claim saying it had never arrived and claiming they emailed me several times and I never responded. I submitted proof of delivery from UPS and pointed out the simple fact that I had received no messages from the buyer through ebay messaging. Ebay gave them a full refund and refused to speak to me about it. When I called them and waited on hold for several hours, they literally just hung up on me. I closed my ebay and paypal accounts and I’ll never use them again.

JoshGlazebrook 7y ago
I have a similar story. I sold a brand new iPhone to someone on eBay who claimed it was reported as stolen and was not able to be used. Paypal refunded the buyer, and allowed them to keep the phone. Paypal account went negative, their internal collections started calling every day right away even though it was in dispute. Even after providing proof that the IMEI was not reported as stolen, and them waiting weeks for the buyer to provide any proof (they didn't), they still sided with the buyer. I called for weeks, and finally after about two months, somehow the person on the phone was able to just issue a refund. I've not sold anything on Ebay since. On top of that, when I had an issue with buying something through paypal, they used that ^ instance as a negative against me while on the phone. "Well I see you sold a stolen iPhone in the past..." was not something I was expecting to hear.
- kderbyma 7y ago
  I assume you reported the phone stolen afterwards correct?
  - PaulWaldman 7y ago
    To whom would you report the phone as stolen?
    - Can_Not 7y ago

milankragujevic 7y ago

Similar thing happened to me with PayPal, buyer got to keep the item, and got a refund (by doing a chargeback on their CC) and I got billed the amount + 15% of fees and punishment. I provided exhausting proof of delivery and that there was no contact or complaints from the buyer, but they didn't care. They said, since it's a chargeback, they HAVE to give them their money back. The buyer was a client of Commonwealth Bank of Australia. Ironically, when I tried doing a chargeback on a transaction as a buyer, I got denied after waiting for 30 days for a reply, and had to pay a fee for an "untruthful claim". The bank is Erste Bank in Serbia. In my opinion my claim was valid, as the seller did not reply to me at all.

nicolas_t 7y ago
Interestingly about chargeback, I've noticed the same. I tried to file a chargeback with my bank in France and got denied despite it being a valid claim and me providing all the documentation for it. But, when I used my US credit card to file a chargeback it went through fine and there was no issue. I wonder if some countries are more lax with charge backs?
- nulbyte 7y ago
  Some merchants certainly are. And in GP's case, PayPal might be playing the role of merchant, since they technically took the payment. I wonder if they just offer refunds to avoid having to accept chargebacks as such.
  - milankragujevic 7y ago
    Yes, PayPal is the merchant, and as the CSR in the Ireland call center explained to me, they HAVE to issue the refund, or they risk extreme fines (the representative also told me PayPal could "lose the license to accept payments", but I doubt that, given their size. Regular merchants would, but PayPal is too valuable, so it would just get extreme fines and higher processing fees).
    - 7y ago

tus88 7y ago

There is no perfect system that protects buyers and sellers. Change the rules and buyers will be complaining. The reason it is skewed towards buyers is: 1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living). 2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as they need to resell the item to gain currency, which is risky (both from exposing themselves to stolen item investigations as well as being a victim of fraud themselves as a seller). 3) imagine if sellers could just ship rocks to buyers instead of cameras without consequence. Every scammer and his dog would be in on the gig without 5 seconds. (1) becomes even more bleak. The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.

freepor 7y ago
A seller can absorb fraud when they’re doing hundreds or thousands of transactions. If each person is doing one transaction the people hit will have life altering consequences for some items.
- Paul-ish 7y ago
  I wonder if seller insurance is viable. Pay $50 for an item, company does a background check on the seller and maybe does escrow.
  - dannyw 7y ago
    I sell on eBay, but I cancel purchases from buyers with dodgy reputations. If someone has been an eBay buyer since 2006 wih 240 positive buyer feedback and 0 negative; they're probably not going to defraud me.
    - Nextgrid 7y ago
      When I tried to sell something on eBay I had plenty of scam messages from old, reputable-looking accounts. The accounts were presumably compromised. Worse, eBay sent warning messages claiming that the accounts were suspected of being compromised, so the scum company knows it and still doesn’t block the accounts.

node1 7y ago

I have heard many stories online where customers bought new graphic cards/cpus/camera gear from 'Sold by Amazon.com' but instead receive used ones. Or receive different cheaper (older generation) products. It does not seem to be a good place to buy or sell expensive items.

monomad1 7y ago
I bought a lamp for a rear projection tv a couple years ago. It burned out after a month. Amazon let me return it, but charged a restocking fee. That would've been fine, but I haven't been able to review the product for over a year now. Fuck amazon - newegg is cheaper anyway.
- undersuit 7y ago
  Newegg has problems too. All my friends have RMA horror stories with them, mine is having to pay $50 and shipping because the plastic PCI-E retention clip broke when I was disassembling my new computer with DOA motherboard for an RMA. Also, Newegg gave up on maintaining their reliable filtering tools for third party sellers.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    Mine is returning a phone, and having them ask for my Gmail password three times. Maybe it's my fault I didn't disassociate something prior to factory reset, but the phone was fine. And new. They claimed they couldn't complete the return until they had full access. That alone tells me they are selling used phones as new. After I refused, they told me to just change it to something temporarily so they could log in. I demanded the phone back, and promptly donated it as is.
    - Can_Not 7y ago
      No, it's not your fault, Google gives you zero warning that factory resetting will lock out the next user.
    - 7y ago

freepor 7y ago

Ultimately when you mail something there is no way to prove what you mailed. You can mail a brick and say it was a camera or you can mail a camera and the buyer can say it was a brick. There’s an opportunity here for companies with big real estate footprints like UPS store or Office Depot to offer verified shipping and/or receiving, where you hand them the items and they pack them up and ship them with a certification of what’s inside.

onemoresoop 7y ago
Good but not scam-proof, there can be a brick in a camera case in a box. The verified shipping says camera in a box. I don't really mean brick here but the item could be a defective item, a different model or something the verification process could miss.
- davchana 7y ago
  The UPS or something can take a photo of the product or item they received. They are not verifying what's inside. They are just verifying the weight, a photo from few angles, available only in case of dispute. Seller can also do that, but a third party doing it with no horse in the race can act like a notary. We are verifying what we saw. A camera box with X pounds of weight. If seller wants them to verify the inside contents, he needs to Show them the inside contents. Then UPS will be confirming by photos that yes, an item with this serial number is there inside and we packed it. Its kind of slippery slope. What if its just a empty camera body? What is its a junk camera? What if buyer says these above falsely?
zxcmx 7y ago
That would be great and raise the bar, but the same dispute issues would exist, just with authenticity of goods. Scammy buyer would purchase say, 32GB sticks of RAM and ship back 1GB sticks with the stickers swapped.

saurik 7y ago

Is Amazon even supposed to be a reasonable place for small scale sellers to try to operate? The entire mechanism of credit cards and large scale markets is based on the idea that you reduce user friction in order to get more sales en aggregate. Can you imagine Best Buy caring "Visa let a fraudster keep the refrigerator they purchased from us and even refunded them $3000"? Something like that probably happens every week. If you care about every individual sale you need entirely different sales apparatus and pipeline than something like Amazon, for whom we have also heard stories recently here on HN of them shipping multiple items to someone and just telling the customer not to bother returning it as it will be more trouble for everyone than it is really worth it to them.

freepor 7y ago

If reading this story makes your blood boil, and you need some catharsis, there’s a story online that I can’t find right now about a guy who went to the address of the fraudster and beat him with a piece of rebar giving him a permanent limp.

onemoresoop 7y ago
Maybe that was an innocent person. Scammers are known to use other people's addresses, they know when the person is not at home and when the package arrives and just go loot it.
stordoff 7y ago
I'm not sure in what world fraud is equivalent to a permanent debilitating injury, but even if it it was, that doesn't make it right. And even if it did, how do you know it's the right person? There are 5 people in my house (and I regularly ship things to other addresses). Do you just pick one and hope for the best?

canada_dry 7y ago

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper would get an extra fee. For high value items (i.e. like OP's camera) it would certainly be in everyone's best interest and platforms like ebay, Facebook, Amazon could insist that all parties use this type of service or relinquish their ability to dispute. Too over simplified??

dharmab 7y ago
Isn't this a form of escrow service? Those are sometimes used when buying very expensive items via auction/real world.
- mjevans 7y ago
  Sounds closer to a notory service combined with shipping and insurance to me.
- briandear 7y ago
  That’s exactly what this is.
- canada_dry 7y ago
  > Isn't this a form of escrow service? Sort of, except the agent wouldn't be handling (receive and/or disburse) money. They just certify and record a part of the transaction (i.e. shipment).
giarc 7y ago
At a Purolator (Canadian retailer) mailing centre near me, they have this system that weighs the box but also measures the dimensions. The whole rig is ceiling mounted (while the scale is on a counter). I suspect like this could also incorporate a camera that takes a photo of the inside contents.

sevenf0ur 7y ago

> If you’re going to sell on Amazon or elsewhere, take an actual video of you packing the camera. You need all the defense you can get against items mysteriously disappearing. Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? One could just unpack the box right after filming.

wtallis 7y ago
> Isn't this evidence just as bad as the buyer's account that he didn't receive any accessories? No, of course not. Buyer didn't provide any details about what was missing or what was received. This isn't a level he-said/she-said, it's one party being forthcoming and the other evasive. Both parties had equal opportunity to lie, but only one put in effort to appear honest. Amazon should at least hold their scammers to a higher standard.
- TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
  I think the parent comment meant in the general sense, not this specific case.
_underfl0w_ 7y ago
I think this every time someone suggests filming part of the transaction. Nowhere does video of an action imply that it was not immediately undone right after filming.
- lstamour 7y ago
  But the same might be true if you filmed the entire transaction. The only way you’d have proof is if you hand deliver it the entire way and as you validate with the buyer that everything works at that point and the transaction is over. Even then, the third-party holding the funds in escrow has to be satisfied or you could have a buyer disagree and say that was a different transaction than the one it applied to, a different camera...
- Can_Not 7y ago
  Just roll the camera all the way to the mail drop.

akurilin 7y ago

Startup idea: create a high quality camera gear buying and selling experience for the web, with many protections and conveniences built in. Selling your gear on Craigslist and meeting with random strangers at McDonald's and Starbucks is pretty much the only real alternative right now and gets old pretty fast. This was an issue for music gear too, but somehow reverb.com managed to address it and make it a pretty painless experience. Their customer service is excellent, and if one of the two parties are unsatisfied, they'll intervene and try to find a compromise. They send you boxes to ship your gear in, they set up shipping for you, they automatically track the shipment as it gets picked up etc. I've been hoping to find something similar for camera gear, but have had no luck so far. The only downside is that the prosumer camera equipment world seems to be rapidly shrinking, so it might be not a great idea to step into this space right now. Whereas there doesn't seem to be a dearth of people buying guitars, drum kit pieces and effects pedals.

y2bd 7y ago
Keh (https://www.keh.com/ https://www.keh.com/) is sort of like this, except that they function more like a second-hand shop--you sell them your gear, and they hold inventory that other people can buy, meaning you never actually interact with the eventual buyer. Because of this though, I imagine they take a larger cut than Reverb does (and certainly more than eBay). As a buyer I've had zero problems with Keh the couple of times I've used them.
- akurilin 7y ago
  I've gotten quotes through a few of these sites in the past, and I was getting at best 50-70% of the value I would have gotten by selling in person through CL. I imagine it's in part because you ship it over to them, they have to inspect the items etc. I think those services can be useful for buyers, but sellers who want to get the most for their gear will avoid them. Like you said, something like Reverb could compete on taking a smaller cut.
  - mcyukon 7y ago
    Yeah its a good concept and I would love an easy, secure way to sell items however they are quoting $965 USD for my Nikon Z6 which is out-of box new and retails for $1,996.95 USD. That's pretty hard to swallow. For that I'll put in the time to sell it locally, meet and try in person, cash only.

hrdwdmrbl 7y ago

Amazon is awful for sellers. Buyers can return items used, including underwear and single-use items as well. There are no question asked. A person could live their life buying toilet paper from Amazon, using it, and then literally returning it and Amazon would never stop this behavior. The same goes with clothing or anything else you can use within the return window provided by Amazon.

BooneJS 7y ago

I got ripped off on eBay where the fraudster kept my gas RC car and got the refund. It was only $300, but I haven’t sold anything on the internet that I wouldn’t be uncomfortable giving away since.

durpleDrank 7y ago

Amazon FBA is a joke. I tried it for a year. Experienced a couple of instances like OP. Customer service at Amazon is an ineffective joke when it comes to these matters as well. Fees are too high etc. Believe the hype of YouTube "entrepreneurs" at your own peril.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

allovernow 7y ago

Similar story on eBay. I shipped ≈10k worth of goods to a buyer. He tore a hole in the box and claimed half of the contents were missing, after signing for the package. Despite this eBay refunded his money and refused to listen to our story until we took it to Twitter and pinged some high level manager.

heavyset_go 7y ago

I'm getting ads that state if I buy the ad-purchaser's product on Amazon and leave a good review, they'll refund my money. Basically, they're ads that say "Free [Product]!" and when you click them, they ask you to purchase the product, leave a positive review and then they'll refund you. I tried to look for a way to report the seller to Amazon, but from what I found, I need to have a seller account with Amazon to do so, which I don't. As a customer, I can't report the product without buying it first. Does anyone have a link or email I can use to reach out to someone at Amazon about this? Some of these products have thousands of positive reviews[1]. I find it misleading, and to be a nuisance to consumers who rely on these reviews to guide their purchases. I don't know why Amazon makes it so difficult to report these fraud schemes. Since I found it difficult to reach out to Amazon, I reported the seller to my state Attorney General's consumer protection division and to the FTC. Since then, I've gotten even more ads like this, and I don't have the time to report them all to agencies that may or may not follow up on my reports. [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NRGR9LL https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NRGR9LL

RandomBacon 7y ago
jeff@amazon.com
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Yeah, this is the email that a lot of the Quora-esque answers have. The product I put in my OP is still up with the reviews, despite sending a message containing the link + evidence to that address. I was hoping for a way to reach out to a real human being, and it doesn't seem like that address is the way to do it. But thanks anyway.

ikeboy 7y ago

>I denied the return. And that's your problem. If you deny a return within the return period, you're in violation of Amazon policy, and the A-Z team will rightly rule against you. The correct response is to accept the return, then deny a refund after it comes back to you because it wasn't sent back with the same accessories you sent it with.

lukevdp 7y ago
I came here to say this also. You can’t reject the return, you need to accept it and then it’s on the buyer to return the item to you. If it comes back with parts missing, you can do a partial refund. Buyer can still do an A-Z claim, but you’re in a much stronger position, especially if you have proof of how you sent it and how you received it.
scottlamb 7y ago
Why do they have a "violate policy and eventually lose dispute" button then?
- ikeboy 7y ago
  Frankly, because the team that sets policy is different from the team that makes the buttons. The policy has lots of exceptions - e.g. some categories can't be returned, like groceries. To disable that button, they'd have to check for all the exceptions and constantly update it whenever a policy changed. They did change to automatically approving returns a few years ago, but with an opt-out ability. My guess is either OP's product fell into an obscure exception to that rule, or OP opted out, or something similar.
  - hackme1234 7y ago
    The teams need to collaborate more then. This still seems like a design failure
    - malka 7y ago
      seems like something done on purpose to fuck people.

bitxbit 7y ago

Paypal is not a good solution for secondary markets. I wish someone would start a payment company specifically focused on P2P where you can have escrows and third-party reviews for expensive items. Instead of sending your item directly to a buyer, you send it to a third-party who then signs off on it. I am sure people will gladly pay 5% fee to get that peace of mind.

TravelTechGuy 7y ago

Sad story, though not uncommon. I heard many eBay horror stories involving buyers' scams. Frankly, selling anything on Amazon is crazy. But if you do have to, vet your buyer. Look at their previous purchases and feedbacks. Avoid the quick deal that will blow in your face. The bottom line is that eBay (and Amazon too) are more focused on the buyers. Buying on eBay is great, because you have 100% buyer protection. There's no seller protection at all. I'd recommend sticking to either local selling apps (like Craigslist etc.) where you can verify the buyer (though stay safe and do it somewhere public), or through online communities that manage access and feedbacks (there are several on Reddit and Facebook).

city41 7y ago
I was surprised the article mentioned eBay as a better alternative as a seller. It really isn’t, eBay will side with the buyer pretty much every time.

laurentdc 7y ago

Similar thing happened to me with eBay and PayPal. I sold a Marantz CD player, well packaged, took plenty of pictures. Buyer claimed that the RCA connectors were "slightly bent" (he refused to send pictures of that - but it's a normal thing, there's some PCB flex) and that there was a scratch on a certain side that I hadn't photographed, using this to imply that I wanted to hide the scratch. I offered him to return the item even at my expense, he refused. He threatened of negative feedback, made a claim with PayPal and got half the amount back pretty much instantly, and kept the item of course. Since this I've decided that when I don't need something anymore I'm just better off donating it or simply trashing it. Dealing with dishonest buyers and everyone siding with them by default is just not worth the hassle.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

neycoda 7y ago

Wow, looks like a great way to get free stuff on Amazon!

themagician 7y ago

Funny that everyone assumes the buyer is the thief. I’ve had FedEx steak from me twice. Caught both times, but only because I really pressed the issue.

Schnitz 7y ago

Amazon is as fraud ridden as eBay at this point.

hartator 7y ago

Well his blog hijacked my browser history. Injecting the homepage of his blog. Which is not appreciable.

ornornor 7y ago

> Investigate more even-handed selling services, like eBay, Fred Miranda, or other online retailers. I do t know what Fred Miranda is, but eBay will also always side with the buyer.

malka 7y ago

> 2020 > trust Amazon ?????

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Bottom line: the buyer can claim that a lot of things are missing, item is broken, scratched etc and since there's no definite proof (for example: you can video...but then remove items before shipping) Amazon has chosen to trust the buyers. As others pointed out an outside party might be needed to keep both sides honest, but otherwise Amazon has to trust one side...

tolidano 7y ago

Step 1: only sell the body, a single item. Keep the rest.