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It seems a lot of these experiments are a success. But after a while somebody gets greedy and thinks “we get good productivity at 32 hours. I wonder how much mo

It seems a lot of these experiments are a success. But after a while somebody gets greedy and thinks “we get good productivity at 32 hours. I wonder how much more we could get at 40 hours?” And soon you are back at the old schedule. Something similar happened at my company. For once a project was ahead of schedule. So instead of thinking that the system worked well and keep working in relaxed manner management decided to “pull in” the deadline and suddenly the project was a death march again. For some people it’s hard to accept that relaxed people are productive. They want to see stress and overtime or they will think that people are underperforming.

toper-centage 7y ago
Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? Specially developers have that leverage. We have the ability of changing the whole job landscape.
- ahoy 7y ago
  Sounds like labor organizing, and yes, its the best way to ensure you say some say in what your work-life looks like.
  - pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
    The BEST way to ensure what your work-life looks like is to start your own company... not whine to an existing company that has already proven willing to exploit you.
- castlecrasher2 7y ago
  >Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? I've been on both sides of this equation and yes employees have a responsibility to speak up, but given the dynamic of the relationship it's easy to see why they wouldn't. If managers aren't interested in listening then speaking up can just get you on their bad side.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Organizing activities to form a union is protected by US federal law. If you’re afraid of management, why are you working there if you’re not attempting to level the playing field?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  The usual path for this are unions.
- postsantum 7y ago
  I agree. This is our duty to push for normalizing reduced work hours and remote work
kody 7y ago
I agree that it's hard for some people (managers) to see a relaxed, happy person and believe that they're also totally productive. I don't blame them either; I feel like the image of overly-caffeinated, stressed-out people is embedded in our collective consciousness as representative of High Productivity and our lizard brains can't seem to be able to reconcile that with the data that is saying "relaxed people who make enough money, are treated well, and have the freedom to live satisfactory lives outside the office will most probably be more productive, focused, and effective at work."
- bluntfang 7y ago
  >I feel like the image of overly-caffeinated, stressed-out people is embedded in our collective consciousness as representative of High Productivity Don't forget about the over prescription of amphetamines. I knew I was in a bad place when all the "high performers" (according to management) all had darting eye, chewed gum all day, and were underweight/never ate during the work day.
  - deleted 7y ago
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- dnh44 7y ago
  If it works for chickens I don't see why it can't work for people. Companies could brand themselves as "Free Range" Happy workers lay nicer eggs!
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    A lot of companies brand themselves as “free range”. Just read some job ads and see how happy people are and how much fun they have at work. And like with “ free range eggs” you have to a very close look to see how true the claims are.
AWildC182 7y ago
It's as if killing the golden goose is a tale as old as time...
burnte 7y ago
>we get good productivity at 32 hours. I wonder how much more we could get at 40 hours? Usually 4 days a week means 4 ten hour days, not 4 eight hour days. Hence the phrase "four tens".
- culopatin 7y ago
  In the article they are discussing the 32h week though
- nfriedly 7y ago
  In my mind "4 day work week" means "4x8 hours", and "4 tens" means "4x10 hours". I have family that works 4x10 hours, and they usually refer to it as "4 tens". It looks like some people go either way, though. Quote from the article: > Many employers aren't just moving to 10-hour shifts, four days a week, as companies like Shake Shack are doing; they're going to a 32-hour week — without cutting pay.
ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
I was a development manager for years, for a Japanese company. The Japanese are type A++ (at least, in Tokyo). They are masters at applying stress across the Pacific. As a manager, it was my job to insulate my team from the stress, and I often took the hit for telling my bosses that I wasn't going to push my people harder than they already were working. It seemed to work out in the end. When they finally rolled up my team, I had been managing it for 25 years, and the person with the least seniority in my team had a decade with the company. It's a whole different world, out there, now. I had a manager at a startup tell me that conventional management assumes that engineers will only stay at a company for 18 months, so they really pile on the stress. I can't even imagine that. There were a lot of downsides to working with the corporation that I worked for, but they treated us all with a great deal of respect, and made it possible for me to keep valuable, senior-level C++ developers for decades; despite rather sub-optimal pay, and a not-so-thrilling work environment.
- andrekandre 7y ago
  > I had a manager at a startup tell me that conventional management assumes that engineers will only stay at a company for 18 months, so they really pile on the stress which is ironic, because isn’t that why people stay less and less longer at a company (can’t stand the slog)?
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I think economically it may make sense to hire fresh people for less money, burn them out and then have them leave soon. This may be one reason for ageism .
    - wongarsu 7y ago
      Provided it's easy to get new people up to speed and experience isn't overly important
    - the_gipsy 7y ago
      Long term, no. Short term maybe, or it's not "economically" but "politically" desirable.
bumby 7y ago
Anecdotal, but I’ve experienced the opposite where the greed seemed to come more from fellow employees rather than managers. Five day weeks meant breakfast breaks as soon as the group came in on Friday, long lunches, and people mentally checking out early. When we switched to shorter weeks this just shifted to Thursday. After productivity was hurting management was met with a near mutiny attitude at the thought of going back to 5 day weeks. Point being, I think there’s something to be said for company culture in making this work
- asdfman123 7y ago
  There are two types of companies: those that value presenteeism and those that actually value things getting done. Yes, I imagine in the first type of company people would continue to slack, but just do it fewer days a week.
m3kw9 7y ago
It didn’t happen when we had weekends. But they workaholics or pressure will have them work weekends. The 4 day week seem moot point in that regard. The other issue come up later on when people get used to 4 day work week is that they eventually have chores that can’t be done in 3 day weekends. Sort of like the rule where if you give x amount of time fir a task, you will likely use all of it.
NaOH 7y ago
> For some people it’s hard to accept that relaxed people are productive. Just look at how U.S. culture treats service workers. We best be seated on time for our dinner reservation. No one should wait 15 minutes for their hotel check-in because housekeeping isn't done yet. Oh, and that coffee was ordered nearly 5 minutes ago. And the plumber was supposed to be here at 8. Your concerns about greed extend well beyond worker productivity. It appears to be the logical extension of believing the individual is sacrosanct.
- jawns 7y ago
  All of those examples you offer sound like management issues rather than issues with the service people themselves. If I make a dinner reservation, my expectation is that the restaurant knows what the crowd will be like at that time and has scheduled enough staff to handle it. Similarly, if the plumbing company says the plumber will be here at 8, it is totally reasonable to expect him to be here by 8, or they shouldn't say he'll be here at 8. If there's too much uncertainty in his schedule to give a specific time, the company's scheduler should instead be giving blocks of time. One example of treatment of service workers that actually does reflect their own performance rather than resource allocation / scheduling issues is expecting them to always be doing _something_. I used to work in retail, and if there were no customers in our department, heaven help us if our managers caught us just standing around chit-chatting. We needed to be wiping windows, no matter if we'd just wiped them an hour ago, or tidying stock, no matter if it was already in pristine condition. I see the same thing with restaurant waitstaff. Both management and customers expect to see them always on the move, even if their tables don't necessarily need anything at the moment.

toper-centage 7y ago

Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? Specially developers have that leverage. We have the ability of changing the whole job landscape.

ahoy 7y ago
Sounds like labor organizing, and yes, its the best way to ensure you say some say in what your work-life looks like.
- pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
  The BEST way to ensure what your work-life looks like is to start your own company... not whine to an existing company that has already proven willing to exploit you.
castlecrasher2 7y ago
>Is it not also the responsibility of employees to ask for that benefit? I've been on both sides of this equation and yes employees have a responsibility to speak up, but given the dynamic of the relationship it's easy to see why they wouldn't. If managers aren't interested in listening then speaking up can just get you on their bad side.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Organizing activities to form a union is protected by US federal law. If you’re afraid of management, why are you working there if you’re not attempting to level the playing field?
Ididntdothis 7y ago
The usual path for this are unions.
postsantum 7y ago
I agree. This is our duty to push for normalizing reduced work hours and remote work

kody 7y ago

I agree that it's hard for some people (managers) to see a relaxed, happy person and believe that they're also totally productive. I don't blame them either; I feel like the image of overly-caffeinated, stressed-out people is embedded in our collective consciousness as representative of High Productivity and our lizard brains can't seem to be able to reconcile that with the data that is saying "relaxed people who make enough money, are treated well, and have the freedom to live satisfactory lives outside the office will most probably be more productive, focused, and effective at work."

bluntfang 7y ago
>I feel like the image of overly-caffeinated, stressed-out people is embedded in our collective consciousness as representative of High Productivity Don't forget about the over prescription of amphetamines. I knew I was in a bad place when all the "high performers" (according to management) all had darting eye, chewed gum all day, and were underweight/never ate during the work day.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
dnh44 7y ago
If it works for chickens I don't see why it can't work for people. Companies could brand themselves as "Free Range" Happy workers lay nicer eggs!
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  A lot of companies brand themselves as “free range”. Just read some job ads and see how happy people are and how much fun they have at work. And like with “ free range eggs” you have to a very close look to see how true the claims are.

AWildC182 7y ago

It's as if killing the golden goose is a tale as old as time...

burnte 7y ago

>we get good productivity at 32 hours. I wonder how much more we could get at 40 hours? Usually 4 days a week means 4 ten hour days, not 4 eight hour days. Hence the phrase "four tens".

culopatin 7y ago
In the article they are discussing the 32h week though
nfriedly 7y ago
In my mind "4 day work week" means "4x8 hours", and "4 tens" means "4x10 hours". I have family that works 4x10 hours, and they usually refer to it as "4 tens". It looks like some people go either way, though. Quote from the article: > Many employers aren't just moving to 10-hour shifts, four days a week, as companies like Shake Shack are doing; they're going to a 32-hour week — without cutting pay.

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago

I was a development manager for years, for a Japanese company. The Japanese are type A++ (at least, in Tokyo). They are masters at applying stress across the Pacific. As a manager, it was my job to insulate my team from the stress, and I often took the hit for telling my bosses that I wasn't going to push my people harder than they already were working. It seemed to work out in the end. When they finally rolled up my team, I had been managing it for 25 years, and the person with the least seniority in my team had a decade with the company. It's a whole different world, out there, now. I had a manager at a startup tell me that conventional management assumes that engineers will only stay at a company for 18 months, so they really pile on the stress. I can't even imagine that. There were a lot of downsides to working with the corporation that I worked for, but they treated us all with a great deal of respect, and made it possible for me to keep valuable, senior-level C++ developers for decades; despite rather sub-optimal pay, and a not-so-thrilling work environment.

andrekandre 7y ago
> I had a manager at a startup tell me that conventional management assumes that engineers will only stay at a company for 18 months, so they really pile on the stress which is ironic, because isn’t that why people stay less and less longer at a company (can’t stand the slog)?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I think economically it may make sense to hire fresh people for less money, burn them out and then have them leave soon. This may be one reason for ageism .
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    Provided it's easy to get new people up to speed and experience isn't overly important
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    Long term, no. Short term maybe, or it's not "economically" but "politically" desirable.

bumby 7y ago

Anecdotal, but I’ve experienced the opposite where the greed seemed to come more from fellow employees rather than managers. Five day weeks meant breakfast breaks as soon as the group came in on Friday, long lunches, and people mentally checking out early. When we switched to shorter weeks this just shifted to Thursday. After productivity was hurting management was met with a near mutiny attitude at the thought of going back to 5 day weeks. Point being, I think there’s something to be said for company culture in making this work

asdfman123 7y ago
There are two types of companies: those that value presenteeism and those that actually value things getting done. Yes, I imagine in the first type of company people would continue to slack, but just do it fewer days a week.

m3kw9 7y ago

It didn’t happen when we had weekends. But they workaholics or pressure will have them work weekends. The 4 day week seem moot point in that regard. The other issue come up later on when people get used to 4 day work week is that they eventually have chores that can’t be done in 3 day weekends. Sort of like the rule where if you give x amount of time fir a task, you will likely use all of it.

NaOH 7y ago

> For some people it’s hard to accept that relaxed people are productive. Just look at how U.S. culture treats service workers. We best be seated on time for our dinner reservation. No one should wait 15 minutes for their hotel check-in because housekeeping isn't done yet. Oh, and that coffee was ordered nearly 5 minutes ago. And the plumber was supposed to be here at 8. Your concerns about greed extend well beyond worker productivity. It appears to be the logical extension of believing the individual is sacrosanct.

jawns 7y ago
All of those examples you offer sound like management issues rather than issues with the service people themselves. If I make a dinner reservation, my expectation is that the restaurant knows what the crowd will be like at that time and has scheduled enough staff to handle it. Similarly, if the plumbing company says the plumber will be here at 8, it is totally reasonable to expect him to be here by 8, or they shouldn't say he'll be here at 8. If there's too much uncertainty in his schedule to give a specific time, the company's scheduler should instead be giving blocks of time. One example of treatment of service workers that actually does reflect their own performance rather than resource allocation / scheduling issues is expecting them to always be doing _something_. I used to work in retail, and if there were no customers in our department, heaven help us if our managers caught us just standing around chit-chatting. We needed to be wiping windows, no matter if we'd just wiped them an hour ago, or tidying stock, no matter if it was already in pristine condition. I see the same thing with restaurant waitstaff. Both management and customers expect to see them always on the move, even if their tables don't necessarily need anything at the moment.