7 ms·
PG speaks of writing usefully while not writing well. Many of his sentences are phrases. The subject of his sentence is often unclear. He begins sentences wi
by say_it_as_it_is 7y ago
PG speaks of writing usefully while not writing well. Many of his sentences are phrases. The subject of his sentence is often unclear. He begins sentences with the preposition, "But". Yet, his writing remains useful. I'd rather the latter than the former if I had to choose, but considering the volume that he writes, it's surprising that he hasn't put effort into writing well. He just doesn't care to improve his work.
- cneurotic 7y agoEntering pedantic mode: "But," in Paul's usage, isn't a preposition. And starting sentences with prepositions isn't considered "incorrect" by most grammarians[0]. Or even bad style. If it's good enough for the Bible[1], it's probably good enough for you. [0]https://wordcounter.net/blog/2016/10/26/102560_can-you-start-a-sentence-with-but.html https://wordcounter.net/blog/2016/10/26/102560_can-you-start... [1]https://biblehub.com/nlt/genesis/31.htm https://biblehub.com/nlt/genesis/31.htm
- kasey_junk 7y agoI’m certainly no grammarian or even much of a writer, but the Bible seems a particularly odd piece of writing to use as a guide. It’s been translated to the nth degree, is ancient & frequently obtuse on purpose...
- philwelch 7y agoTranslations of the Bible, at least in historically Christian cultures, are usually treated as authoritative examples of proper written usage.
- normalnorm 7y agoNo they aren't.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 7y agoWhere did you get this idea?
- philwelch 7y ago(deleted)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- tptacek 7y agoSo you derived the idea axiomatically?
- philwelch 7y agosighs No, but if you think I’m full of shit, I don’t really want to waste my time discussing how I developed this particular misunderstanding about the world for your amusement.
- tptacek 7y agoI'm sorry. It's the game I'm poking fun at, not the players (I'm as bad as anyone) and I can see how I could have communicated personalized contempt rather than general bemusement. I apologize and promise that I don't think you're full of shit.
- philwelch 7y agoThanks. In retrospect it's kind of funny that I ended up making one of those mistaken remarks that the original essay explicitly recommends against.
- tptacek 7y agoI'm not sure I even agree with that, since I just spent my lunch down a 20 minute rabbit hole of researching the regard usage experts have for English translations of the bible, and it's actually a pretty interesting digression. I shouldn't have jumped on you for it; I made the thread worse.
- hnarn 7y agoStarting a sentence with "But I think we can" is neither incorrect, nor is it a preposition.
- mellavora 7y agoThis is something up with which we will not put! --Winston Churchill.
- mellavora 7y agoallegedly. On the topic of not ending a sentence with a preposition. https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/11/14/churchill-on-prepositions/ https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/11/14/churchill-on-prepositions/
- throwawaylolx 7y ago>He just doesn't care to improve his work. Alternatively, you may overestimate how objective these rules are and how much they must correlate with some universal metric for good writing.
- daxaxelrod 7y agoAgreed. In my opinion, great writing has to be within the context of the time. A lot of us speak in a manner similar to how PG writes. You wouldn't consider great writing from 1890 with the same set of rules as you would something written in 2020.
- tasogare 7y agoThat’s because you have very few exposition to 1890 writing. When I read published book from a hundred years ago (in French), I’m often stroke by how much clearer it is than say, newspaper garbage for instance. No only in style, but also how they write to inform instead of writing to hide facts. It’s even more striking when watching archive videos from the 60’. People speak more slowly, are more composed and use wider vocabulary. It might not be as caricatural as the movie Idiocracy portrayed it, but in a way I feel we’ve slided into what they predict.
- throwawaylolx 7y ago>When I read published book from a hundred years ago (in French), I’m often stroke by how much clearer it is than say, newspaper garbage for instance. No only in style, but also how they write to inform instead of writing to hide facts. For this comparison to hold water, you should compare garbage newspapers from each period rather than different literary mediums.
- abtinf 7y agoI wouldn’t normally take apart an HN comment on grammar, but you are commenting on clarity of writing. If this is something you care about, than the following proofing may be useful. Format is (delete text)[insert text or comment]. ——————— That’s because you have very (few exposition)[little exposure] to (1890 writing)[writing from 1890]. When I read published (book)[books;otherwise “often” in next segment doesn’t make sense] from a hundred years ago (in French), I’m often (stroke)[struck] by how much clearer it is than[,] say, (newspaper garbage)[awkward] (for instance)[redundant after using “than, say,”]. No[t] only in style, but also how (they)[unclear reference, refers to books but books don’t write, authors do] write to inform instead of writing to hide facts. It’s even more striking when watching archive videos from the 60’[s]. People speak more slowly, are more composed and use wider vocabulary. It might not be as (caricatural)[not a word and intended meaning unclear from context] as the movie Idiocracy portrayed it, but[,] in a way[,] I feel we’ve (slided)[slid] into what (they)[it] predict[s].
- hndc 7y agoIn "But I think we can aim...", "but" is a conjunction, not a preposition Also, his writing is fine: simple but clear and effective. "Many of his sentences are phrases" — literally every sentence in this essay is a complete sentence. What are you talking about?
- injb 7y agoquote: "...with the preposition, "But". Yet, his writing..." The word "but" is a conjunction, like "yet". Oh, the ironing!
- say_it_as_it_is 7y agoGood catch. The ironing was intentional.
- jackconway 7y agoThere's nothing wrong with starting a sentence with "but."
- TimPC 7y agoStarting a sentence with But is perfectly fine as long as it's actually starting a sentence. We get to not to in grammar school only because starting a 'sentence' with But often turns that 'sentence' into a phrase.
- dragonwriter 7y ago> He begins sentences with the preposition, "But". But “but”, in the use in question, is a conjunction. With which one should be less concerned about starting a sentence than one would be about a preposition.