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Do you remember Ship of Theseus? The thought experiment about if a ship which has been fully rebuilt bit by bit is it still the same thing? Japan appears consi

• swampthing 7y ago
  But in the West, even if you just gave your business away to another person who continued to run it, we would still consider that the same business.
  • austhrow743 7y ago
    Sure but you would't then advertise it as having been in the family for a thousand years.
    • TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
      But you might still say "family run for a thousand years"
      • Barrin92 7y ago
        more as ad advertisement slogan though. I've never seen someone in the west adopt another adult just to authentically continue a legacy (outside of European monarchies maybe). There is a sense of tradition to these Japanese companies that one doesn't see so often outside of Japan.
        • TheSpiceIsLife 7y ago
          Thoroughly agree.
        • aurelianito 7y ago
          Romans used to do adult adoptions. Off the top of my hat, I clearly remember that Cesar adopted Brutus, his killer, as an adult.
    • swampthing 7y ago
      The article is about century+ old businesses in general, of which family-run ones are a subset.
      • austhrow743 7y ago
        The article doesn't mention temples being burned down at all.
  • Danieru 7y ago
    Indeed, the business would continue. The issue is that in the west business owners would not see the merit in just giving a business away for the sake of the age ticking up. In the west the business would get sold and merged. Only in Japan does the adoption make it a family or lineage thing.
    • droithomme 7y ago
      > Only in Japan does the adoption make it a family or lineage thing. No. Every culture worldwide accepts adoption. A child, grandchild, nephew, etc, continuing a business keeps the business in the family. Whether the child is adopted or not, and regardless of the age of adoption.
      • RandallBrown 7y ago
        > regardless of the age of adoption Are adult adoptions common at all?
        • keiferski 7y ago
          Becoming a son-in-law or daughter-in-law certainly counts in this context.
          • regularfry 7y ago
            This is apparently a very common thing in farming.
        • adrianN 7y ago
          Pretty common to save tax on inheritance I'd say.
        • tshanmu 7y ago
          it is quite common in the part of India where I come from.
      • irq11 7y ago
  • droithomme 7y ago
    Even in the West we consider adoption to be legitimate.
    • brigandish 7y ago
      Of adult males for the sole purpose of keeping a business as a "family" business?
    • Danieru 7y ago
      Considering it is illegal in the UK and frowned upon by the IRS, it leads me to think you are confusing adoption of children with the adoption of adult men. Note how often these adult men are being adopted along with marrying the daughter of the family. I dare say outside of Japan such an arrangement would be considered weird.
      • VintageCool 7y ago
        Doesn't America have a history of adoption of adult men in gay couples? That allowed them to secure the legal rights of family members before gay marriage was legal. I remember some stories of it being a problem when gay marriage became legal, and they faced legal difficulties if they wanted to marry their adopted father or son.
      • icebraining 7y ago
        > being adopted along with marrying the daughter of the family. How does that work? They become both husband and brother to the same person?
        • samatman 7y ago
          Yes, with the proviso that everyone understands that it's different and the taboo against incest doesn't kick in. In practice what it means is that the couple adopts the family name of the wife, not the husband, which is the name associated with the family business that he's taking over.
  • OJFord 7y ago
    Not always though, sometimes we say they've 'sold out' or are 'not the same'. E.g. Fuller's (London brewer) now owned by Japanese conglomerate, Church (Northampton shoes, was still in the family) bought by Prada.
    • pjc50 7y ago
      Only because the new owner tends not to have a sense of continuity or respect, and it usually is different.
    • spoovy 7y ago
      The Churches clearly regretted selling after seeing what Prada did to their company (made it a parody of itself), so they now run Cheaney (a rival) and arguably make better shoes than Church's ever did. Still a sad story though.
• GreeniFi 7y ago
  Bit random, but your post reminded me of this moment of British comedy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE
  • bmsleight_ 7y ago
    Was thinking of posting this as well. I have used "Triggers Broom" example in a contract negotiation involving spares. Classic comedy works on so many levels.
• Bayart 7y ago
  >In the west we might argue that burning a building and rebuilding, would count as a new building. Interestingly enough, by that notion most churches (at least in towns) in the former Roman empire date back to Antiquity. But we usually only date the date of the main standing structure as the building's birthday.
• ekianjo 7y ago
  > You see this attitude in "Japan's oldest temple, burned to the ground and rebuilt every 20 years". Thats only in Ise. Dont make generalizations. For about every other old building in Japan something burning down is a tragedy, even if they try to rebuild it afterwards. For example Osaka castle is technically standing now but nobody is fooled by the fact that its an empty shell compared to the original building. That is precisely why Himeji castle is so precious in comparison.
  • Danieru 7y ago
    What generalization? There is no other "japan's oldest temple" which is being raized every 20 years.
    • deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    • ekianjo 7y ago
      > Japan appears consistent in saying, yes, rebuilding or swapping out components keeps the identity. That generalization.
• _delirium 7y ago
  Japan and "the west" (broadly speaking) do have different norms about what counts as continuity, but there is a lot of ship-of-Theseus kind of stuff that goes on in the west too. Two categories come to mind offhand. One, there have been restoration projects on ancient Greek and Roman buildings that have involved completely dismantling them, stone by stone, and then reconstructing them from the original stones. And two, it is fairly common for independent shops and restaurants to advertise things such as, "[City's] oldest restaurant, serving you since 1833", but since 1833, the restaurant has been sold three times to new owners, changed location twice, and completely overhauled its menu many times.
• jdavis703 7y ago
  I lived in an old, converted GE lightbulb factory. I doubt the management around back in 1912 would recognize the company today. Imagine explaining that GE would make a thing called a “jet” engine that would let people fly between continents in a few hours. Or that they’d be building power plants that worked by splitting atoms. And then tell all the workers that all light bulbs they’re making will be made in China instead. By this Ship of Theseus reasoning it would seem that GE is not the same company it was when they were making incandescent bulbs in 1920s Oakland.
  • deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  • fapjacks 7y ago
    Well, in 1912, jet-engine-powered aircraft and atomic energy would not seem like far-fetched ideas. Certainly not to educated research engineers at GE, anyway. People routinely underestimate how technologically advanced the world was prior to WW1. Aerospace was advancing rapidly, and chemistry was quite well understood in 1912. A jet engine requires precision manufacturing but otherwise is not a complex idea. Radiation had already been studied for over a decade, and the concept of splitting an atom and harnessing the radiation to heat water would not seem like completely alien technology to people who understood chemistry.
    • adrianN 7y ago
      Fission was discovered more than 25 years later. Nuclear power was pretty far fetched in 1912.
      • fapjacks 7y ago
        The parent comment implies these things would follow the old "seems like magic" trope. They would not seem like magic if you explained these concepts to (educated) people of the time.
        • adrianN 7y ago
• msiyer 7y ago
  This thought experiment is neither just a thought nor an experiment. This is the reality of life - every single cell in the body of a plant or animal is replaced every few months. Essentially, talking about the physical body, we are not what we were a few months ago. EDIT: Agreed, a few types of brain cells do not get replaced, but everything else does. My point still stands. Physically, we are not what we were a few months ago.
  • msiyer 7y ago
    The complexity is mind boggling. Physically, we are not what we were a few months ago. And what exactly is physicality? People were commenting that the idea that every cell is replaced in a living organism is 'laughable'. Brain cells and osteocytes were cited as examples of cells that are never replaced. However, I still think, and more strongly than ever, that brain cells and osteocytes can be examples of unchanging cells if an only if it is proven beyond a shadow of doubt that every single atom constituting such cells remains intact during the lifetime of such cells. Since the human body is subjected to a lot of physical stress and damage and repair is continuous, it is possible that damaged brain cells or osteocytes get replaced with new ones. Need to read more about this, though.
  • hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
    > This is the reality of life - every single cell in the body of a plant or animal is replaced every few months. This is laughably false.
    • nojvek 7y ago
      Do you have a source for your claim?
      • beaner 7y ago
        Does the person he's replying to?
      • nickcox 7y ago
        Not sure it's on the GP to provide a source but here's one: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/life-span-of-human-cells-defined-most-cells-are-younger-than-the-individual/198208.article https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/life-span-of-human...
• erikpukinskis 7y ago
  One of my favorite YouTube channels, Sampson Boat Co, is doing just that: a young shipwright is rebuilding the classic sailing yacht Tally Ho piece by piece, in a modest workshop by the sea up in Oregon. It will be all new by the time he’s done, minus some hardware, but he has never lost continuity with the original hull. This is just how wooden boats are, whether you do it bit by bit, or as a big project, eventually you replace just about all of it every 100 years or so. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-_lYeV8hBnDSay7nmphUA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-_lYeV8hBnDSay7nmphUA
  • hugofloss 7y ago
    Thank you for this. Occasionally you find gems like this on YouTube. One of my favourite channels is Nik Rijavec's, who is building a house from scratch (so not a rebuild). There is something really pure and real about the way he makes his video, and is not only about the woodworking: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjAl_0yeKwUAQ2A3tQFcnA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjAl_0yeKwUAQ2A3tQFcnA
    • DanCarvajal 7y ago
      Craft youtube is the best
  • jacquesm 7y ago
    That is one absolutely amazing job. Wonder what his timetable looks like.
    • JshWright 7y ago
      He's two years away from launching, and has been for at least two years now (this is Leo's joke, not me criticising his project)
      • jacquesm 7y ago
        Hehe, a bit like fusion then. Well, here's to hoping that he gets it completed in his lifetime and that he gets to take her out on the maiden voyage and that all works out well. It is an incredible undertaking, I just watched some of his joinery videos, him doing stuff 'without getting too fancy about it' is workmanship level that I can only aspire to and know that I'll never reach it.
• mytailorisrich 7y ago
  > Japan's oldest temple, burned to the ground and rebuilt every 20 years I suspect that there is a degree of translation loss in those quotes. In general if you ask someone about this they'll indeed reply that their temple is 1,000 years old (example). Then if you ask whether this means that this building right here is 1,000 years old they'll may very naturally reply that no, they rebuild it every so often. I'm thinking that the concept of e.g. 'temple' might be different than the actual buildings the temple is made of. Now, sometimes the buildings really are hundreds of years old.
  • gindely 7y ago
    Which isn't really different then churches, which may be older than the church building. "The church was founded in 1890. The present building was opened in 1950, and the old building is now used as a hall." Sometimes you might even see "The church was built in 1890. A new building was opened in 1950, but they burned down in 1984. The present building was finished in 1986."
• brazzy 7y ago
  > Japan's oldest temple, burned to the ground and rebuilt every 20 years It's a shrine, not a temple, it's torn down, not burned down, and whether it's the oldest is a matter of whether you believe the legends.
  • taejo 7y ago
    Radio Yerevan was asked: "Is it correct that Grigori Grigorievich Grigoriev won a luxury car at the All-Union Championship in Moscow?" Radio Yerevan answered: "In principle, yes. But first of all it was not Grigori Grigorievich Grigoriev, but Vassili Vassilievich Vassiliev; second, it was not at the All-Union Championship in Moscow, but at a Collective Farm Sports Festival in Smolensk; third, it was not a car, but a bicycle; and fourth he didn't win it, but rather it was stolen from him."
    • tgflynn 7y ago
      Somehow your post seems like the opposite case of the comment you're referring to. The parent comment points out some inaccuracies, that while annoying, don't really change the basic point of the original statement. Whereas your example is a case where so many details are so wrong that the basic idea is completely changed.
• raxxorrax 7y ago
  I think western cultures would also consider it the same business. There are a lot of family owned companies, but to customers that fact doesn't matter that much. To be honest, I dearly prefer their model of slow incremental adaptation compared to a gig economy, that is sadly established in many western nations to a larger degree. I would even go so far as to say that it could severely limit long term prosperity growth. Some say Japan has some problems on that account. I think we should look at it 50 years later an see who is laughing.
  • lovemenot 7y ago
    I talk to Japanese workers in various domestic and foreign firms operating in Japan almost every day. Consensus on this topic seems to be that the Japanese approach is favoured in times where goals are clearly understood and agreed upon. In such circumstances Japan's superlative skills in quality, incremental improvement, planning and harmonious group-work will come to the fore. At other times, including perhaps these last 2-3 decades, it is more valuable to try and mostly fail in the interest of discovery. The Long Tail, above the Bell Curve. At such times as these Japan generally just holds and waits. For instance, the Edo period lasted 250 years, with very little change. Meanwhile, from 1600, Europe and the New World were changing like gangbusters. >> I think we should look at it 50 years later... Fifty years is a fairly long time to make predictions, but I'd argue that you'll only see Japan having re-emerged as leader in 2070, should a clear new order have already become apparent. If not, they'll certainly still be waiting patiently with serious intent.
• PinguTS 7y ago
  > Japan appears consistent in saying, yes, rebuilding or swapping out components keeps the identity. You see this attitude in "Japan's oldest temple, burned to the ground and rebuilt every 20 years". In the west we might argue that burning a building and rebuilding, would count as a new building. That is a wrong example/comparison. Even in the west rebuilding an heritage is not considered as a new building. In Europe rebuilding after a catastrophic event like fire is sometimes a requirement. Would you consider restoring Notre Dame as new building? I would not think so. What about Sagrada Familia? They are still not finished with the building. What about the Cologne dom? They are still not finished with the building.
  • Plyphon_ 7y ago
    I think the GP made a great point but missed a key detail - This attitude is reflected in their homes, also. (I'm talking about sub-urban or rural, not metropolitan) They tend to build their homes to last around 20-30 years, then they'll knock them down and rebuild them. But they would still refer to it as the same family home for [x] decades. source: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusabl...
  • netrus 7y ago
    Interesting examples I have seen are The Frauenkirche in Dresden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche) and The Bratislava Castle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratislava_Castle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratislava_Castle), both complete rebuilds (and both were ruins for a long time before they were rebuild). I have an uneasy relationship with these buildings. On the one hand, I understand the appeal of old buildings, and that people want them to be around again. On the other hand, I find it weird to build a building today that looks like it is an old one (Historismus?). Somehow, these buildings feel like lies to me, like a Disneyland or Las Vegas version of history. So I guess my (German) view is indeed quite different from the Japanese perspective described by GP.
    • asjw 7y ago
      > Notre Dame as new building? I would not think so. What about Sagrada Familia? They are still not finished with the building. What about the Cologne dom? The last two are very modern buildings Notre dame was rebuilt a few times, but never completely We do "conservation of cultural heritage" in the west and we have been doing it for centuries The "Veneranda Fabbrica del Duomo di Milano" Is > a 600-year-old organization that was established to supervise the construction of the Cathedral of Milan (the "Duomo"). The organization is still active and involved with the maintenance, preservation, and restoration of the cathedral.
• goodcanadian 7y ago
  Similar in Japan's family business the lineage can be preserved by adopting a adult man capable of continuing the business. This is often put out as something uniquely Japanese, and perhaps in modern times it is, but the Roman Empire used to to this pretty regularly as well: nominating heirs by adopting adult men.
  • kyuudou 7y ago
    This also applies to handing down real estate. The house in Japan my mother was born in is over 100 years old. My grandfather died while married to his 3rd wife (the 2nd wife was my grandmother) and she did not have any sons with him so the workaround is to have a proxy man who is like a visible head of the household but make no mistake, she runs the place in all aspects. In essence she adopted a husband (I don't think they have amorous relations) to continue the line through a male so to speak.
• bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  I think in the west we would argue that burning down and rebuilding a building constitutes a new building but burning down and rebuilding a named location keeps it still the same location, example: Notre Dame.
  • itake 7y ago
    I don't think Notre Dame completely burned down though?
    • natmaka 7y ago
      It didn't. The roof was burned down, but otherwise the building (made of stone) remains.
    • bryanrasmussen 7y ago
      Ok, I suppose I went too quickly with my example although I thought the principle would be familiar, namely that a named place can be rebuilt and it is still the named place. Better example - well here but it's in Danish https://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/kirke-tro/marmorkirkens-s%C3%B8rgmuntre-bygningshistorie https://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/kirke-tro/marmorkirkens-s%... of course the principle is not universal, for example old St. Peter's Basilica and new st. Peter's Basilica are at the same location and of course are distinguished from each other by the descriptive old or new.
• Kaiyou 7y ago
  Unless Theseus sells his ship, it will stay his ship, even if he replaces every part. Still the ship of Theseus, as it is a matter of ownership, not of identity.
• javiermares 7y ago
  If the changes are small and gradual enough, identity is preserved, like in atoms in our brains, or an beloved antique car.
• JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Interesting. The building is repaired, new roof and windows and floor and ceiling, soon only the frame is 'original'. But the building is not the 'business'. Every day, the product on the shelf is new. New customers go through the door. Even the product formula or process may change. Generations pass, and entirely different people are standing in that building selling those (changed) products. The people may have some genetic similarity to those that stood there before. But any human would have substantially the same cell chemistry, which is many millions of times more in common than a particular strand of molecules. So won't any human be enough? The definition of a 'business' is a human idea. Its not rooted in physics. So if we want to say a business is old or continuous, I guess go ahead.