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> Telecom-equipment makers who sell products to carriers "are required by law to build into their hardware ways for authorities to access the networks for lawfu

> Telecom-equipment makers who sell products to carriers "are required by law to build into their hardware ways for authorities to access the networks for lawful purposes," but they "are also required to build equipment in such a way that the manufacturer can't get access without the consent of the network operator," the Journal wrote. I love this quote. The US is essentially complaining that Huawei has access to the backdoor channels that only the US government was supposed to have.

gruez 7y ago
>The US is essentially complaining that Huawei has access to the backdoor channels that only the US government was supposed to have. How is surprising? The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. Having a monopoly on intercepting telecom traffic is a logical consequence of that. For other countries though, yeah I'd prefer if neither China nor US have backdoor access.
- ancorevard 7y ago
  "I'd prefer if neither China nor US have backdoor access." So would I, but having lived in both countries, one of the two governments is decidedly more evil than the other.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Well, you could think about it this way: its better to possibly leak data to a foreign interest if they don't work well with your country. Sure, they may have some data, but they wont share it.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - sam_lowry_ 7y ago
    Judging by the number of wars it started in the last century... it's definitely the American.
    - agoodthrowaway 7y ago
      I don’t really understand comments like this. US has lots of problems but we do have the semblance of rule of law. We do have the notion of transparency and you do not get sent to a labor camp if you have political views antithetical to the state. The Chinese can and do simply disappear people without the semblance of due process. Their history also is one of ethnic cleansing as the Han people have pushed out or marginalized most other ethnic groups. The history of: The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution, and Tianammen Square is pretty awful.
      - zabana 7y ago
        > the chinese can and do simply disappear people without the semblance of due process Hum you could use a chat with one or more guantanamo bay inmates
        zzddffgg 7y ago
        The scales here are extremely different. Millions of uighurs are being detained en masse for their race and religion. Guantanamo has 40 inmates who are related to national security. It's a false equivalence and disrespectful to uighurs to compare them to terrorists.
        vixen99 7y ago
        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/nov/24/dont-listen-to-fake-news-chinese-ambassador-pressed-over-detention-camps-in-xinjiang-video https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/nov/24/dont-lis...
        7y ago
  - mamon 7y ago
    U.S. government just has much better PR, thanks to Hollywood, but it isn’t that much better than Chinese one.
  - dependenttypes 7y ago
    What is more dangerous for an American (or even European) citizen? The US or China spying at them? Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US.
    - frequentnapper 7y ago
      >Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US. Can you support this assertion?
      - AsyncAwait 7y ago
        Kim Dotcom, Julian Assange, Iraq, Iran etc.?
        Mulpze15 7y ago
        FIFA executives. Even though I found it awesome. https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and-five-corporate-executives-indicted-racketeering-conspiracy-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and...
      - TwoBit 7y ago
        China can't prosecute me for anything, U.S. can.
      - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
        America are more likely to kidnap me over the borders compared to China.
        pyuser583 7y ago
        Source? To quote a Chinese citizen: “Give us a baby and we’ll let you go.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-let-you-go/trafficking-kachin-brides-myanmar-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-...
  - thereare5lights 7y ago
    The answer is obvious for citizens of either country, but the the answer is different for citizens of neither country. China has historically not engaged in violence far from its borders. America frequently does.
  - wangii 7y ago
    nearly 20 years ago, George Bush talked about 'evil' countries, sent troops, and... unless you are under 25 or deeply religious, I'd suggest to think twice before using 'evil' on subjects of international politics.
    - harry8 7y ago
      evil is a good word with a defined meaning. Having it mis-used should not stop us from its correct usage. Yes absoultely be vigilant about its use, the specifics and be very suspicious of generalities of "evil" in nation state politics. It's reasonable to describe the actions of any government as evil when it meets the definition. Was George Bush Jnr performing the actions of an evil man? Discuss.
      - wangii 7y ago
        does every group supports any math operator? does every word have meaning in every domain? I don't think so.
- syshum 7y ago
  as a US Resident, China has no authority to murder me or put me in a cage like the US Government does. So if I had to choose I would prefer china over the NSA, Of course neither is the best option but ..... if I lived in China the inverse would be true
  - gruez 7y ago
    That argument really only works if you're a political activist or even an average citizen. However, if you're a high level executive, defense contractor, or a high ranking government employee, do you really want the Chinese government to have access to your comms AND know your movements?
    - TwoBit 7y ago
      So 98% of American citizens then.
    - syshum 7y ago
      good thing I am just an average American citizen then
  - Enginerrrd 7y ago
    This is dangerously naieve and short-sighted. Look at how readily China already uses our own corporations against us. ESPN showed a map of china with the nine-dash-line. Hollywood won't dare to offend the Chinese government. Our tech companies are willingly censoring themselves. Our corporations influence our politicians, and China is exerting influence on our corporations. If they have access to an enormous volume of potential blackmail or datamining, you think they won't use that against us for political gains? They could blackmail a programmer to insert a subtle vulnerability into a piece of code by threatening to expose his extramarital affair, or threatening to tell his employer/family/friends what kind of porn he watches. Or they could easily datamine and target those with monetary issues to see who is vulnerable to a bribe. Or they could threaten to frame you for child porn using their backdoor access. This is from a government that isn't afraid to 'disappear' political dissidents, send people to "re-education" camps, harvest organs from their own people. You think they're going to be friendlier to American citizens?
- makomk 7y ago
  In practice, we're not just talking about the US backdooring telecoms systems within their own borders. They were caught red-handed compromising exactly these lawful access systems in the European allies they're now leaning on not to use Huawei telecom systems in order to tap their politicians' phones.
  - totalZero 7y ago
    Seems like convenient timing, no?
- trevyn 7y ago
  >The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. Pedantry FYI, that’s just a state. The term “nation” has more to do with distinct communities and culture. And so a “nation state” is when those overlap.
  - panarky 7y ago
    Pedantry squared FYI, but because the United States calls their provinces "states", it's helpful to disambiguate by adding the word "nation". Furthermore, since a nation is a group of people bound together by shared culture, values, religion, language, etc., while a state is a piece of land with a defined border, then nations and states are not necessarily the same thing. A "nation-state" is the intersection of the two, where cultural boundaries align with political and geographical boundaries, and not a redundant synonym of "state".
- ieS7rpVU 7y ago
  >The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. That seem like a good reasons for people within US borders to prefer to be spied on by the Chinese government rather than the US government and for people within Chinese borders to prefer to be spied on by the US government rather than the Chinese government. If I have to be spied on, I will choose whoever is less likely to subject me to violence.
oh_sigh 7y ago
They pulled the same like when I was trying to buy a little yellow cake uranium. The government is so hypocritical.
tonyb 7y ago
The features they aren't talking about aren't a "backdoor". It is well a well document feature of most service provider networking equipment that allows for the provider to respond to subpoenas. The data collection is explicitly configured by the service provider. The allegation is that Huawei can activate the lawful intercept feature without authorization from the service provider. The theory behind the lawful intercept concept is that with the appropriate legal authorization a law enforcement agency can get a capture of a subscribers traffic in a somewhat standard format - that way the LEA doesn't have to have a different way to process the data from each network equipment vendor. Here is a description of how the feature is commonly implemented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://www.arubanetworks.com/techdocs/Instant_40_Mobile/Advanced/Content/UG_files/calea_configuration/calea_integration_overview.htm https://www.arubanetworks.com/techdocs/Instant_40_Mobile/Adv... https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/10000/10008/feature/guides/lawful_intercept/10LIovr.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/10000/10008/fe...
- jshowa3 7y ago
  I'm sure the NSA see's this completely differently. While I understand what you mean, it's very hypocritical when you have agencies like the NSA rolling around.
alfiedotwtf 7y ago
Australia called, and wants its irony back.
nl 7y ago
That's a bad take. There's a huge difference between a documented authorised-only interface and an undocumented backdoor.
empath75 7y ago
Let’s say it is hypocritical — and China is fully within its rights as a nation to attempt to do this — that doesn’t mean the us should just let them get away with it. Let China keep the nsa out of their networks and we’ll keep China out of ours.

gruez 7y ago

>The US is essentially complaining that Huawei has access to the backdoor channels that only the US government was supposed to have. How is surprising? The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. Having a monopoly on intercepting telecom traffic is a logical consequence of that. For other countries though, yeah I'd prefer if neither China nor US have backdoor access.

ancorevard 7y ago
"I'd prefer if neither China nor US have backdoor access." So would I, but having lived in both countries, one of the two governments is decidedly more evil than the other.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Well, you could think about it this way: its better to possibly leak data to a foreign interest if they don't work well with your country. Sure, they may have some data, but they wont share it.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- sam_lowry_ 7y ago
  Judging by the number of wars it started in the last century... it's definitely the American.
  - agoodthrowaway 7y ago
    I don’t really understand comments like this. US has lots of problems but we do have the semblance of rule of law. We do have the notion of transparency and you do not get sent to a labor camp if you have political views antithetical to the state. The Chinese can and do simply disappear people without the semblance of due process. Their history also is one of ethnic cleansing as the Han people have pushed out or marginalized most other ethnic groups. The history of: The Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution, and Tianammen Square is pretty awful.
    - zabana 7y ago
      > the chinese can and do simply disappear people without the semblance of due process Hum you could use a chat with one or more guantanamo bay inmates
      - zzddffgg 7y ago
        The scales here are extremely different. Millions of uighurs are being detained en masse for their race and religion. Guantanamo has 40 inmates who are related to national security. It's a false equivalence and disrespectful to uighurs to compare them to terrorists.
        vixen99 7y ago
        https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ https://www.pbs.org/newshour/features/uighurs/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/nov/24/dont-listen-to-fake-news-chinese-ambassador-pressed-over-detention-camps-in-xinjiang-video https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2019/nov/24/dont-lis...
        7y ago
- mamon 7y ago
  U.S. government just has much better PR, thanks to Hollywood, but it isn’t that much better than Chinese one.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  What is more dangerous for an American (or even European) citizen? The US or China spying at them? Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US.
  - frequentnapper 7y ago
    >Even if China is more evil in its domestic affairs a western civilian has much more to fear from the US. Can you support this assertion?
    - AsyncAwait 7y ago
      Kim Dotcom, Julian Assange, Iraq, Iran etc.?
      - Mulpze15 7y ago
        FIFA executives. Even though I found it awesome. https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and-five-corporate-executives-indicted-racketeering-conspiracy-and https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/nine-fifa-officials-and...
    - TwoBit 7y ago
      China can't prosecute me for anything, U.S. can.
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
      America are more likely to kidnap me over the borders compared to China.
      - pyuser583 7y ago
        Source? To quote a Chinese citizen: “Give us a baby and we’ll let you go.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-let-you-go/trafficking-kachin-brides-myanmar-china https://www.hrw.org/report/2019/03/21/give-us-baby-and-well-...
- thereare5lights 7y ago
  The answer is obvious for citizens of either country, but the the answer is different for citizens of neither country. China has historically not engaged in violence far from its borders. America frequently does.
- wangii 7y ago
  nearly 20 years ago, George Bush talked about 'evil' countries, sent troops, and... unless you are under 25 or deeply religious, I'd suggest to think twice before using 'evil' on subjects of international politics.
  - harry8 7y ago
    evil is a good word with a defined meaning. Having it mis-used should not stop us from its correct usage. Yes absoultely be vigilant about its use, the specifics and be very suspicious of generalities of "evil" in nation state politics. It's reasonable to describe the actions of any government as evil when it meets the definition. Was George Bush Jnr performing the actions of an evil man? Discuss.
    - wangii 7y ago
      does every group supports any math operator? does every word have meaning in every domain? I don't think so.
syshum 7y ago
as a US Resident, China has no authority to murder me or put me in a cage like the US Government does. So if I had to choose I would prefer china over the NSA, Of course neither is the best option but ..... if I lived in China the inverse would be true
- gruez 7y ago
  That argument really only works if you're a political activist or even an average citizen. However, if you're a high level executive, defense contractor, or a high ranking government employee, do you really want the Chinese government to have access to your comms AND know your movements?
  - TwoBit 7y ago
    So 98% of American citizens then.
  - syshum 7y ago
    good thing I am just an average American citizen then
- Enginerrrd 7y ago
  This is dangerously naieve and short-sighted. Look at how readily China already uses our own corporations against us. ESPN showed a map of china with the nine-dash-line. Hollywood won't dare to offend the Chinese government. Our tech companies are willingly censoring themselves. Our corporations influence our politicians, and China is exerting influence on our corporations. If they have access to an enormous volume of potential blackmail or datamining, you think they won't use that against us for political gains? They could blackmail a programmer to insert a subtle vulnerability into a piece of code by threatening to expose his extramarital affair, or threatening to tell his employer/family/friends what kind of porn he watches. Or they could easily datamine and target those with monetary issues to see who is vulnerable to a bribe. Or they could threaten to frame you for child porn using their backdoor access. This is from a government that isn't afraid to 'disappear' political dissidents, send people to "re-education" camps, harvest organs from their own people. You think they're going to be friendlier to American citizens?
makomk 7y ago
In practice, we're not just talking about the US backdooring telecoms systems within their own borders. They were caught red-handed compromising exactly these lawful access systems in the European allies they're now leaning on not to use Huawei telecom systems in order to tap their politicians' phones.
- totalZero 7y ago
  Seems like convenient timing, no?
trevyn 7y ago
>The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. Pedantry FYI, that’s just a state. The term “nation” has more to do with distinct communities and culture. And so a “nation state” is when those overlap.
- panarky 7y ago
  Pedantry squared FYI, but because the United States calls their provinces "states", it's helpful to disambiguate by adding the word "nation". Furthermore, since a nation is a group of people bound together by shared culture, values, religion, language, etc., while a state is a piece of land with a defined border, then nations and states are not necessarily the same thing. A "nation-state" is the intersection of the two, where cultural boundaries align with political and geographical boundaries, and not a redundant synonym of "state".
ieS7rpVU 7y ago
>The defining characteristic of a nation state is that it has a monopoly on violence within its borders. That seem like a good reasons for people within US borders to prefer to be spied on by the Chinese government rather than the US government and for people within Chinese borders to prefer to be spied on by the US government rather than the Chinese government. If I have to be spied on, I will choose whoever is less likely to subject me to violence.

oh_sigh 7y ago

They pulled the same like when I was trying to buy a little yellow cake uranium. The government is so hypocritical.

tonyb 7y ago

The features they aren't talking about aren't a "backdoor". It is well a well document feature of most service provider networking equipment that allows for the provider to respond to subpoenas. The data collection is explicitly configured by the service provider. The allegation is that Huawei can activate the lawful intercept feature without authorization from the service provider. The theory behind the lawful intercept concept is that with the appropriate legal authorization a law enforcement agency can get a capture of a subscribers traffic in a somewhat standard format - that way the LEA doesn't have to have a different way to process the data from each network equipment vendor. Here is a description of how the feature is commonly implemented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_interception https://www.arubanetworks.com/techdocs/Instant_40_Mobile/Advanced/Content/UG_files/calea_configuration/calea_integration_overview.htm https://www.arubanetworks.com/techdocs/Instant_40_Mobile/Adv... https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/10000/10008/feature/guides/lawful_intercept/10LIovr.html https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/10000/10008/fe...

jshowa3 7y ago
I'm sure the NSA see's this completely differently. While I understand what you mean, it's very hypocritical when you have agencies like the NSA rolling around.

alfiedotwtf 7y ago

Australia called, and wants its irony back.

nl 7y ago

That's a bad take. There's a huge difference between a documented authorised-only interface and an undocumented backdoor.

empath75 7y ago

Let’s say it is hypocritical — and China is fully within its rights as a nation to attempt to do this — that doesn’t mean the us should just let them get away with it. Let China keep the nsa out of their networks and we’ll keep China out of ours.