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This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even if it's purely a marketing term it's designed to up sell you on a half-baked technology. They should call it "Driver assist" or something like "cruise control plus". It's a heartbreaking story.

keanzu 7y ago
GM calls theirs Super Cruise which is true hands-free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxeK0F-D3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxeK0F-D3gg
- bonestamp2 7y ago
  I like the idea of super cruise -- it seems like a lidar scan of the freeway would have prevented Huang's death. But, obviously the freeway changes over time so I wonder how frequently GM re-scans the freeways. Lidar is expensive of course, but it also seems so obvious that the lidar needs to be onboard the vehicle.
  - keanzu 7y ago
    Not sure but apparently they detect road works and are able to update the maps remotely.
    - bonestamp2 7y ago
      Interesting, thanks. Tesla should put Lidar in their Semi Trucks. Since they'll be constantly driving the whole country, they would have a lot of regularly updated scan data that they could deploy to their lower price point vehicles that only have cameras.
- bananabreakfast 7y ago
  yeah, as long as you're staring straight ahead. It has a camera that watches your face. Otherwise they're the same. Except Tesla's keeps getting better with each update and GM stays the same until you take it in to the shop...
  - keanzu 7y ago
    > GM stays the same until you take it in to the shop... Over the air software upgrades are supported by GM. "When the work is done, an over the air software update will turn it back on." https://www.wired.com/story/cadillac-super-cruise-ct6-lidar-laser-maps/ https://www.wired.com/story/cadillac-super-cruise-ct6-lidar-...
- zaroth 7y ago
  GM claims "over 5,000,000 miles of hands free miles driven and counting." Current estimates of AutoPilot miles driven is ~ 2 billion miles. [1] That's 400x the number of miles driven under AutoPilot. I think it mainly comes down to number of vehicles. SuperCruise is only availble on CT6 which sells about 1,000 vehicles a quarter, and not all trims even have SuperCruise. The CT5 is supposed to be offered with SuperCruise eventually in 2020, but that just went on-sale without SuperCruise, and sales figures seem to indicate it is selling extremely slowly. If you look on YouTube it's virtually impossible to find a SuperCruise video of just an owner taking it for a drive offering their thoughts. There are dealer demos, or pro car reviewer demos, but nothing remotely like the thousands of AutoPilot videos. You'll encounter an AP driving Tesla multiple times a day in major cities. You may never have driven along side SuperCruise. We'll see if Cadillac can deploy the feature more widely. They promised all vehicles in 2020 will offer it as an option but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.
  - keanzu 7y ago
    > We'll see if Cadillac can deploy the feature more widely. "According to GM president Mark Reuss, the feature will be available as an option on 22 vehicles by 2023, with seven vehicles getting the feature next year and 12 more in 2022 and 2023." https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30795396/gm-super-cruise-self-driving-2023/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30795396/gm-super-cruise-...
  - vxNsr 7y ago
    Super Cruise is inherently different from AP. It only works on roads that GM has driven and scanned themselves. It’s a lot more cautious and much less ambitious.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
On the flip-side I feel like Tesla has done a good job distinguishing Autopilot from their Full Self Driving package. Autopilot is a mashup of safety features (lane-assist, cruise-control, etc). We can debate all day how you feel about the name, but that seems petty and you're even wrong about that. The name fits perfectly, look up the definition to autopilot. Edit: no hero cape here, just a different opinion. I know, crazy! It's almost if you guys root for the automobile/oil industry sometimes you hate Elon so much. The media is a powerful tool, scary to see it work on HN readers. They got you guys to hate the one guy that actually is fixing the problems. It's not a crazy conspiracy theory if you believe the power the automobile and oil industry have.
- amiga_500 7y ago
  Auto: short for automatic Pilot: a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Auto. Pilot.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Autopilot is one word and the definition is very strict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without constant manual control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. That's the definition the feature name was based off of. It doesn't matter what you feel. It's a word, get over it. The source for people who can't use wikipedia: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/advanced_avionics_handbook/media/aah_ch04.pdf https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/a... Edit: to those of you using "hours" as a value. Autopilot on a Tesla can drive for hours on an interstate with no intervention needed, same as a plane on a flight path. Neither system can replace humans though. It makes sense autopilot in planes is further along, it's been around longer and being in the sky is easier than driving on roads, and it's more regulated for good reasons.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
m00x 7y ago
Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything. If people think it's 99% reliable and it's convenient, they will use it.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself. In choosing to name their technology after another technology which the general public has misconceptions about, Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions. Edit: I'm surprised there is any incredulity here, I've been hearing people say "planes basically fly themselves" and "all it takes to be a pilot is pushing a button" for years. Most often this misconception is surfaced in casual conversation, but here is one example of the misconception getting published: 'A computerized brain known as the autopilot can fly a 787 jet unaided, but irrationally we place human pilots in the cockpit to babysit the autopilot "just in case."' - https://www.wired.com/2012/12/ff-robots-will-take-our-jobs/ https://www.wired.com/2012/12/ff-robots-will-take-our-jobs/ Edit 2: Re: Autoland Modern airliners have autoland, but always take off under human control. Autonomous takeoff is not used by any airliner. Anyway, to your point, a modern airline's autopilot system allows pilots to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual says that is forbidden: "Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times." (page 106: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_x_owners_manual_north_america_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_x_owners_man...) So no matter which way you slice it, Tesla has chosen misleading terminology.
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
perl4ever 7y ago
"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious problems (and a recall) where automatic braking triggers inappropriately and may cause an accident. People have incredible faith in software and technology, and that's fine and all, but I wonder what people like that hang around HN for.
- salgernon 7y ago
  I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don't know if its automatically braking or not. That being said, there is a place on my commute where going around a curve in one particular spot (southbound highway 17 in Santa Cruz, before the Glenwood Cutoff if anyone is playing at home) where 9 times out of 10 the car thiunks thinks I'm about to drive into a wall, sounds the alarm, and then regains its senses. So I haven't had it fail in a harmful way but I also don't think I'd ever give it enough rope to hang me with.
  - nzrf 7y ago
    I also own a Subaru. The assistance is very unwelcome for the crash detection at times. Living in Minnesota the exhaust from a car in front of you can set it off. This can happen on start off of a green light and can completely decelerate the Subaru. The eyesight detects the exhaust as obstacle the car behind you is now at a loss why you are now immediately breaking off the green light. I’m not a fan at all and eye sight. Additionally, you have to turn off the backup sensor to leave my drive way or it will slam on the brakes as it detects flowers that may be leaning into the drive way. Car smarts don’t seem all that smart. I get a kid could be saved here, but driving a car crying wolf all the time leaves a consumer very frustrated. Dealership has been zero help in both regards.
deleted 7y ago
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deleted 7y ago
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- natch 7y ago
  I've experienced this feature. Many fewer incidents of false activation ("phantom braking") in more recent revisions of the software, which gets better and better. It is a feature, because it significantly adds to safety in cases where it's needed, and has prevented at least one serious incident for me. It acts within certain parameters that are not as extreme as described. To call it "slamming" on the brakes is overdramatizing it somewhat.
PopeRigby 7y ago
I think self driving cars are a ridiculous solution to a problem we created and doesn't need to exist. The US building out the country for cars wasn't a good way to do transportation. If we just had trains going from city to city and subways in the cities, we wouldn't even need self driving cars.
- mrits 7y ago
  Not everyone wants to live in a dense population.
  - ironmagma 7y ago
    Call it speculation, but most people don’t really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of it in the US. Especially when you consider the economic effects of walkable areas.
    - Rapzid 7y ago
      Most people don't really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of rural areas either..
      - ironmagma 7y ago
        But if you have denser cities, that leaves more room for rural areas. I don’t think anyone is arguing for less rural land, but as it stands, it is legally impossible to build another city like San Francisco or Manhattan in the US, and that’s a problem for sustainability. People want to live in those places, and not just because they are old.
        Talanes 7y ago
        It's legally impossible to even build San Francisco into a place like Manhattan. Most the city is only zoned for two stories.
bananabreakfast 7y ago
"Autopilot" is not misleading. You just don't know what autopilot means. Autopilot on planes does not mean the plane is self-flying and the pilot doesn't have to pay attention anymore to take over at a moment's notice. Why would you think it's suddenly different in a car?
- rullelito 7y ago
  People in general think this is what autopilot means since that is how it is portrayed in movies and books.
  - bananabreakfast 7y ago
    What movies are you watching where they turn on autopilot and the plane lands itself?? If anything, movies portray planes as extremely hard to fly, and the heroic pilot always has to take over from the autopilot.
    - scraffa 7y ago
      My airplane can land itself. I always assumed that was normal.
    - shrimpx 7y ago
      In the movie “Airplane” the autopilot is an inflatable humanlike doll full on manning the plane. :-)
- js2 7y ago
  Regardless of what autopilot means to pilots, it means something else to drivers.
  - bananabreakfast 7y ago
    Why? Autopilot is a term borrowed directly from aviation.
r_singh 7y ago
> They should call it "Driver assist" or something like "cruise control plus". Exactly, similar tech has been named Adaptive Cruise Control since the 90s.
jerome-jh 7y ago
The pilot's name is: marketing. Tesla is well known for rushing engineering and cultivate market cap. Seeing a pattern? Boeing, Uber, ...
agumonkey 7y ago
beside the death, the worst part is that Tesla/Musk were all about sound science bringing benefits to users. Now it's becoming a stats game over PR. And I'm not even sure anybody bought a Tesla for AP. It was like a clear coat class option.
bagacrap 7y ago
You think "autopilot" is bad? Do you realize Tesla has a DLC mode called "full self driving"?
inviromentalist 7y ago
This is the ethics of Tesla. They are marketing primarily, function second. My biggest concern is that since the company isn't profitable(?) That these highly risky things are acceptable. Other profitable auto companies cannot be this wreckless. It's not like they can go after Personal assets.

keanzu 7y ago

GM calls theirs Super Cruise which is true hands-free. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxeK0F-D3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxeK0F-D3gg

bonestamp2 7y ago
I like the idea of super cruise -- it seems like a lidar scan of the freeway would have prevented Huang's death. But, obviously the freeway changes over time so I wonder how frequently GM re-scans the freeways. Lidar is expensive of course, but it also seems so obvious that the lidar needs to be onboard the vehicle.
- keanzu 7y ago
  Not sure but apparently they detect road works and are able to update the maps remotely.
  - bonestamp2 7y ago
    Interesting, thanks. Tesla should put Lidar in their Semi Trucks. Since they'll be constantly driving the whole country, they would have a lot of regularly updated scan data that they could deploy to their lower price point vehicles that only have cameras.
bananabreakfast 7y ago
yeah, as long as you're staring straight ahead. It has a camera that watches your face. Otherwise they're the same. Except Tesla's keeps getting better with each update and GM stays the same until you take it in to the shop...
- keanzu 7y ago
  > GM stays the same until you take it in to the shop... Over the air software upgrades are supported by GM. "When the work is done, an over the air software update will turn it back on." https://www.wired.com/story/cadillac-super-cruise-ct6-lidar-laser-maps/ https://www.wired.com/story/cadillac-super-cruise-ct6-lidar-...
zaroth 7y ago
GM claims "over 5,000,000 miles of hands free miles driven and counting." Current estimates of AutoPilot miles driven is ~ 2 billion miles. [1] That's 400x the number of miles driven under AutoPilot. I think it mainly comes down to number of vehicles. SuperCruise is only availble on CT6 which sells about 1,000 vehicles a quarter, and not all trims even have SuperCruise. The CT5 is supposed to be offered with SuperCruise eventually in 2020, but that just went on-sale without SuperCruise, and sales figures seem to indicate it is selling extremely slowly. If you look on YouTube it's virtually impossible to find a SuperCruise video of just an owner taking it for a drive offering their thoughts. There are dealer demos, or pro car reviewer demos, but nothing remotely like the thousands of AutoPilot videos. You'll encounter an AP driving Tesla multiple times a day in major cities. You may never have driven along side SuperCruise. We'll see if Cadillac can deploy the feature more widely. They promised all vehicles in 2020 will offer it as an option but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.
- keanzu 7y ago
  > We'll see if Cadillac can deploy the feature more widely. "According to GM president Mark Reuss, the feature will be available as an option on 22 vehicles by 2023, with seven vehicles getting the feature next year and 12 more in 2022 and 2023." https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30795396/gm-super-cruise-self-driving-2023/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30795396/gm-super-cruise-...
- vxNsr 7y ago
  Super Cruise is inherently different from AP. It only works on roads that GM has driven and scanned themselves. It’s a lot more cautious and much less ambitious.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

On the flip-side I feel like Tesla has done a good job distinguishing Autopilot from their Full Self Driving package. Autopilot is a mashup of safety features (lane-assist, cruise-control, etc). We can debate all day how you feel about the name, but that seems petty and you're even wrong about that. The name fits perfectly, look up the definition to autopilot. Edit: no hero cape here, just a different opinion. I know, crazy! It's almost if you guys root for the automobile/oil industry sometimes you hate Elon so much. The media is a powerful tool, scary to see it work on HN readers. They got you guys to hate the one guy that actually is fixing the problems. It's not a crazy conspiracy theory if you believe the power the automobile and oil industry have.

amiga_500 7y ago
Auto: short for automatic Pilot: a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Auto. Pilot.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Autopilot is one word and the definition is very strict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without constant manual control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. That's the definition the feature name was based off of. It doesn't matter what you feel. It's a word, get over it. The source for people who can't use wikipedia: https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/advanced_avionics_handbook/media/aah_ch04.pdf https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/a... Edit: to those of you using "hours" as a value. Autopilot on a Tesla can drive for hours on an interstate with no intervention needed, same as a plane on a flight path. Neither system can replace humans though. It makes sense autopilot in planes is further along, it's been around longer and being in the sky is easier than driving on roads, and it's more regulated for good reasons.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

m00x 7y ago

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything. If people think it's 99% reliable and it's convenient, they will use it.

catalogia 7y ago
> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself. In choosing to name their technology after another technology which the general public has misconceptions about, Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions. Edit: I'm surprised there is any incredulity here, I've been hearing people say "planes basically fly themselves" and "all it takes to be a pilot is pushing a button" for years. Most often this misconception is surfaced in casual conversation, but here is one example of the misconception getting published: 'A computerized brain known as the autopilot can fly a 787 jet unaided, but irrationally we place human pilots in the cockpit to babysit the autopilot "just in case."' - https://www.wired.com/2012/12/ff-robots-will-take-our-jobs/ https://www.wired.com/2012/12/ff-robots-will-take-our-jobs/ Edit 2: Re: Autoland Modern airliners have autoland, but always take off under human control. Autonomous takeoff is not used by any airliner. Anyway, to your point, a modern airline's autopilot system allows pilots to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual says that is forbidden: "Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times." (page 106: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_x_owners_manual_north_america_en.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_x_owners_man...) So no matter which way you slice it, Tesla has chosen misleading terminology.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

perl4ever 7y ago

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious problems (and a recall) where automatic braking triggers inappropriately and may cause an accident. People have incredible faith in software and technology, and that's fine and all, but I wonder what people like that hang around HN for.

salgernon 7y ago
I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don't know if its automatically braking or not. That being said, there is a place on my commute where going around a curve in one particular spot (southbound highway 17 in Santa Cruz, before the Glenwood Cutoff if anyone is playing at home) where 9 times out of 10 the car thiunks thinks I'm about to drive into a wall, sounds the alarm, and then regains its senses. So I haven't had it fail in a harmful way but I also don't think I'd ever give it enough rope to hang me with.
- nzrf 7y ago
  I also own a Subaru. The assistance is very unwelcome for the crash detection at times. Living in Minnesota the exhaust from a car in front of you can set it off. This can happen on start off of a green light and can completely decelerate the Subaru. The eyesight detects the exhaust as obstacle the car behind you is now at a loss why you are now immediately breaking off the green light. I’m not a fan at all and eye sight. Additionally, you have to turn off the backup sensor to leave my drive way or it will slam on the brakes as it detects flowers that may be leaning into the drive way. Car smarts don’t seem all that smart. I get a kid could be saved here, but driving a car crying wolf all the time leaves a consumer very frustrated. Dealership has been zero help in both regards.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

natch 7y ago
I've experienced this feature. Many fewer incidents of false activation ("phantom braking") in more recent revisions of the software, which gets better and better. It is a feature, because it significantly adds to safety in cases where it's needed, and has prevented at least one serious incident for me. It acts within certain parameters that are not as extreme as described. To call it "slamming" on the brakes is overdramatizing it somewhat.

PopeRigby 7y ago

I think self driving cars are a ridiculous solution to a problem we created and doesn't need to exist. The US building out the country for cars wasn't a good way to do transportation. If we just had trains going from city to city and subways in the cities, we wouldn't even need self driving cars.

mrits 7y ago
Not everyone wants to live in a dense population.
- ironmagma 7y ago
  Call it speculation, but most people don’t really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of it in the US. Especially when you consider the economic effects of walkable areas.
  - Rapzid 7y ago
    Most people don't really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of rural areas either..
    - ironmagma 7y ago
      But if you have denser cities, that leaves more room for rural areas. I don’t think anyone is arguing for less rural land, but as it stands, it is legally impossible to build another city like San Francisco or Manhattan in the US, and that’s a problem for sustainability. People want to live in those places, and not just because they are old.
      - Talanes 7y ago
        It's legally impossible to even build San Francisco into a place like Manhattan. Most the city is only zoned for two stories.

bananabreakfast 7y ago

"Autopilot" is not misleading. You just don't know what autopilot means. Autopilot on planes does not mean the plane is self-flying and the pilot doesn't have to pay attention anymore to take over at a moment's notice. Why would you think it's suddenly different in a car?

rullelito 7y ago
People in general think this is what autopilot means since that is how it is portrayed in movies and books.
- bananabreakfast 7y ago
  What movies are you watching where they turn on autopilot and the plane lands itself?? If anything, movies portray planes as extremely hard to fly, and the heroic pilot always has to take over from the autopilot.
  - scraffa 7y ago
    My airplane can land itself. I always assumed that was normal.
  - shrimpx 7y ago
    In the movie “Airplane” the autopilot is an inflatable humanlike doll full on manning the plane. :-)
js2 7y ago
Regardless of what autopilot means to pilots, it means something else to drivers.
- bananabreakfast 7y ago
  Why? Autopilot is a term borrowed directly from aviation.

r_singh 7y ago

> They should call it "Driver assist" or something like "cruise control plus". Exactly, similar tech has been named Adaptive Cruise Control since the 90s.

jerome-jh 7y ago

The pilot's name is: marketing. Tesla is well known for rushing engineering and cultivate market cap. Seeing a pattern? Boeing, Uber, ...

agumonkey 7y ago

beside the death, the worst part is that Tesla/Musk were all about sound science bringing benefits to users. Now it's becoming a stats game over PR. And I'm not even sure anybody bought a Tesla for AP. It was like a clear coat class option.

bagacrap 7y ago

You think "autopilot" is bad? Do you realize Tesla has a DLC mode called "full self driving"?

inviromentalist 7y ago

This is the ethics of Tesla. They are marketing primarily, function second. My biggest concern is that since the company isn't profitable(?) That these highly risky things are acceptable. Other profitable auto companies cannot be this wreckless. It's not like they can go after Personal assets.