7 ms·

Audit Initiated of FAA's Pilot Training Requirements

65 points by infodocket 7y ago

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago
Here comes the hammer...
- AWildC182 7y ago
  This sounds a lot like a political deflection rather than a hammer. The wording suggests an angle towards foreign "international" standards rather than just domestic. This also subtly passes blame towards pilots and their training rather than the extremely lax airframe certification standards.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    There’s a non-zero amount of blame that properly lands on the pilots and their training, IMO. Failing to acknowledge that would be passing up an additional improvement to safety in the system.
    - AWildC182 7y ago
      It does, but it's not at all related to what they're talking about here, at least as far as the text describes. The issue is that large aircraft require an aircraft model specific training program called a type rating which is rather involved and expensive. Both Boeing and Airbus have common type ratings across multiple aircraft models and sub-models to save on training costs for airlines. To do this, they need to maintain a high degree of controls and systems commonality between the types and in this case, they fudged these limitations by adding a system which was a significant departure from the older 737 type and type rating training programs without requiring additional training on the MAX sub-model.
    - salawat 7y ago
      Indeed. Even if we accept that Boeing's malfeasance was the primary issue, we might as well audit the process around how the training material is actually determined, as that is where the biggest, most glaring failure seems to exist. The FAA claimed they didn't know/weren't told that MCAS was as major as it was. This should help figure what led to the outcome through which their attention was directed away from asking the question that should have been asked.
Aloha 7y ago
It's not unexpected, flaws aside the MAX issues have shown flaws in the way we train pilots, mostly in re increasing airframe complexity.
- histriosum 7y ago
  I'm not sure I see these training issues as a problem with the methods and processes we use to train pilots. Rather, this seems like information which was kept from pilots in order to avoid costly training altogether. The methods we use to train pilots have resulted in consistent safety gains even as the cost to fly for passengers has gone down. My personal take is that the industry and regulatory incentives which led to the lack of information to pilots is the problem, not the methods by which we do train pilots to handle automation.
markdown 7y ago
I live in Fiji and know a few pilots. Fijian pilots have traditionally sat ATPL exams out of Australia (CASA). To get this ATP License, one needs to pass 7 gruelling theory exams within a 2yr period. For some pilots this is too difficult, so recently more pilots have been choosing instead to fly to Hawaii and get an American ATPL. Getting an American Air Transport Pilot license takes a single o̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ theory exam. The EASA (European) ATPL involves 14 theory exams.
- AWildC182 7y ago
  Eh... It's more complicated than that. The US ATPs have a few other hoops to jump through beyond the exam. There are ground training requirements and a checkride to high precision standards. The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience.
  - markdown 7y ago
    > The US ATPs have a few other hoops to jump through beyond the exam. There are ground training requirements and a checkride to high precision standards. The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience. It's the same in Australia, hence I didn't mention those requirements. The only difference was the single theory test vs the 7 that CASA requires. > The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience. Not unusual at all. 1500 hours is the standard in most places AFAIK.
    - AWildC182 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_transport_pilot_licence#Differences_between_FAA_and_EASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_transport_pilot_licenc... The 1500 hour rule was initially instated by the FAA. CASA followed suit but EASA did not for co pilots.
    - redis_mlc 7y ago
      > Not unusual at all. 1500 hours is the standard in most places AFAIK. You're fixating on a number rather than the meaning behind the number. The US ATP certificate is 1,500 hours, and has been for a long time, but now an ATP is required for US airliner operations. (There is also an R-ATP, starting at 1,000 hours.) Before 2010 (ie. before Colgan), a commercial multi (about 250 hours) was sufficient for Second-in-command" (SIC) globally. Only the US requires ATP for all stations, and it's because of Congressional "we have to do something." As a result, all US "regional airlines" (aka union-busting pricks) have either stopped operating, or are in the process of shutting down, since there's no qualified cheap airline pilots. Having said that, there is a cutout if you attend a Part 141 school: "If you complete a degree in an aviation field from a qualified university, you can get a Restricted ATP certificate, or R-ATP, once you've accumulated as little as 1,000 hours of flight time and are at least 21 years old." Sadly, the "aviation degree" is a poor choice for most students, as they need a degree in another field like accounting in case they fail their FAA medical, thus instantly ending their pilot career. https://www.flyingmag.com/story/training/atp-certificate-requirements/ https://www.flyingmag.com/story/training/atp-certificate-req... "Although it did nothing to address the specific causes of the crash – improper stall recovery technique and pilot fatigue" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 The above pilot training scenario is bad, but the airline mechanics situation is far worse. Thanks to our lawyer-driven political system, we've hollowed out the leader in aviation into something resembling a failed African state. Source: commercially-rated pilot with some ATP training
erobbins 7y ago
This strikes me as Boeing lobbyists trying to pay people to create doubt. "Maybe it's not the plane, maybe the pilots are inferior to AMERICAN pilots, yeehaw!"
- anon73044 7y ago
  Seems pretty contrary to Boeing fighting tooth and nail to make sure the FAA didn't require a lengthy amount of training. "One of the company’s big selling points with customers had been that pilots certified for an earlier generation of 737 jets only needed a short computer course to brush up their skills for the Max. Those assurances helped make the Max Boeing’s best-selling jetliner." >https://time.com/5762666/boeing-max-faa-messages-clowns/ https://time.com/5762666/boeing-max-faa-messages-clowns/ >https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/business/boeing-737-messages.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/business/boeing-737-messa... >https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-employee-called-lion-air-idiots-training-request-2020-1?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-employee-call...
  - kayfox 7y ago
    I think Boeing is getting smacked in the face by a change in pilot skill levels and areas that has been happening around the world since the 90's. Boeing is in a really bad position to specify minimum training requirements, since any time they ask for more training requirements of their customers, the customers ask for more money back. So its good that the FAA wants to enhance training requirements. Based on some of the things that have happened around these two accidents and others recently, I think the increased training should encompass more core skills as well.
rkangel 7y ago
This seems fairly reasonable. One of the criticisms of the Max situation is that the FAA went along with Boeing's plan that only additional minimal training was required. Reviewing those standards seems like a good idea.
- kayfox 7y ago
  I think it cuts both ways, not only have there been issues with the minimum training specified by the manufacturer, but with the minimum training evaluated by the FAA. This shows in what kind of mistakes are being made these days and really shows in general aviation where seemingly more fundamental mistakes are showing up.
  - redis_mlc 7y ago
    > minimum training specified by the manufacturer, It's rare for mfgs. to set training requirements, as that's the FAA's perogative. The only mfg. that I know has a training S-FAR is Robinson Helicopter for R-22 and R-44 models because of mast-bumping: http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ Icon has pre-purchase contractual language requiring all kinds of things, including approved training: https://www.iconaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ICON_A5_PurchaseAgreement_rev201703_v20ked.pdf https://www.iconaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ICON... The Robinson S-FAR was because of previous accidents, while for Icon it was due to the litigious nature of US society and the target audience being recreational owners. Jets usually require a type rating or an FAA Letter of Authorization (LOA.) Same for gross weight over 12,500 pounds. Fun fact 1: FAA examiners and designated pilot examiners usually watch flights from the ground for warbird LOAs and float plane ratings because those are so dangerous. If the applicant can survive a takeoff and landing in a taildragger with a 1,000 - 2,000 HP engine, that's pretty much all that matters. :) Fun fact 2: Most pilot certification exams are done by Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) who are not FAA employees - they are independent contractors. FAA Examiners seldom do pilot rating exams except for CFI ratings, which I believe are free of charge. DPEs can make good money as a weekend job - around $1,000/day for 2 exams. (When I did my commercial single, the DPE asked, "How about another rating today, like an add-on?") Ka-ching! :) There was a weird FAA regulatory wrinkle around 2000 that DPEs were required to hold a current medical, even if the applicant was a rated pilot. (It affected one of the DPEs in Hawaii.) I heard that was changed, but I haven't seen anything in writing, and the FAA generally moves slowly.
DarkmSparks 7y ago
Hopefully this will include the simulators that Boeing outsourced as a profit centre. Trained by the lowest bidder was never going to end well for them.
sitkack 7y ago
"Fighting Firmware at 25k Feet" or how I learned to root cause distributed control systems in free fall. Nothing is mechanical anymore, it is intermediated by an algorithm and servo. Automation, as done in these flight control "smoothing" systems, reduces situational awareness.
willis936 7y ago
Season 24 of the bachelor has some serious political effect.

65 points by infodocket 7y ago

WrtCdEvrydy 7y ago

Here comes the hammer...

AWildC182 7y ago
This sounds a lot like a political deflection rather than a hammer. The wording suggests an angle towards foreign "international" standards rather than just domestic. This also subtly passes blame towards pilots and their training rather than the extremely lax airframe certification standards.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  There’s a non-zero amount of blame that properly lands on the pilots and their training, IMO. Failing to acknowledge that would be passing up an additional improvement to safety in the system.
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    It does, but it's not at all related to what they're talking about here, at least as far as the text describes. The issue is that large aircraft require an aircraft model specific training program called a type rating which is rather involved and expensive. Both Boeing and Airbus have common type ratings across multiple aircraft models and sub-models to save on training costs for airlines. To do this, they need to maintain a high degree of controls and systems commonality between the types and in this case, they fudged these limitations by adding a system which was a significant departure from the older 737 type and type rating training programs without requiring additional training on the MAX sub-model.
  - salawat 7y ago
    Indeed. Even if we accept that Boeing's malfeasance was the primary issue, we might as well audit the process around how the training material is actually determined, as that is where the biggest, most glaring failure seems to exist. The FAA claimed they didn't know/weren't told that MCAS was as major as it was. This should help figure what led to the outcome through which their attention was directed away from asking the question that should have been asked.

Aloha 7y ago

It's not unexpected, flaws aside the MAX issues have shown flaws in the way we train pilots, mostly in re increasing airframe complexity.

histriosum 7y ago
I'm not sure I see these training issues as a problem with the methods and processes we use to train pilots. Rather, this seems like information which was kept from pilots in order to avoid costly training altogether. The methods we use to train pilots have resulted in consistent safety gains even as the cost to fly for passengers has gone down. My personal take is that the industry and regulatory incentives which led to the lack of information to pilots is the problem, not the methods by which we do train pilots to handle automation.

markdown 7y ago

I live in Fiji and know a few pilots. Fijian pilots have traditionally sat ATPL exams out of Australia (CASA). To get this ATP License, one needs to pass 7 gruelling theory exams within a 2yr period. For some pilots this is too difficult, so recently more pilots have been choosing instead to fly to Hawaii and get an American ATPL. Getting an American Air Transport Pilot license takes a single o̶p̶e̶n̶ ̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ theory exam. The EASA (European) ATPL involves 14 theory exams.

AWildC182 7y ago
Eh... It's more complicated than that. The US ATPs have a few other hoops to jump through beyond the exam. There are ground training requirements and a checkride to high precision standards. The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience.
- markdown 7y ago
  > The US ATPs have a few other hoops to jump through beyond the exam. There are ground training requirements and a checkride to high precision standards. The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience. It's the same in Australia, hence I didn't mention those requirements. The only difference was the single theory test vs the 7 that CASA requires. > The US is also unusual in requiring 1500 flight hours of experience. Not unusual at all. 1500 hours is the standard in most places AFAIK.
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_transport_pilot_licence#Differences_between_FAA_and_EASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_transport_pilot_licenc... The 1500 hour rule was initially instated by the FAA. CASA followed suit but EASA did not for co pilots.
  - redis_mlc 7y ago
    > Not unusual at all. 1500 hours is the standard in most places AFAIK. You're fixating on a number rather than the meaning behind the number. The US ATP certificate is 1,500 hours, and has been for a long time, but now an ATP is required for US airliner operations. (There is also an R-ATP, starting at 1,000 hours.) Before 2010 (ie. before Colgan), a commercial multi (about 250 hours) was sufficient for Second-in-command" (SIC) globally. Only the US requires ATP for all stations, and it's because of Congressional "we have to do something." As a result, all US "regional airlines" (aka union-busting pricks) have either stopped operating, or are in the process of shutting down, since there's no qualified cheap airline pilots. Having said that, there is a cutout if you attend a Part 141 school: "If you complete a degree in an aviation field from a qualified university, you can get a Restricted ATP certificate, or R-ATP, once you've accumulated as little as 1,000 hours of flight time and are at least 21 years old." Sadly, the "aviation degree" is a poor choice for most students, as they need a degree in another field like accounting in case they fail their FAA medical, thus instantly ending their pilot career. https://www.flyingmag.com/story/training/atp-certificate-requirements/ https://www.flyingmag.com/story/training/atp-certificate-req... "Although it did nothing to address the specific causes of the crash – improper stall recovery technique and pilot fatigue" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 The above pilot training scenario is bad, but the airline mechanics situation is far worse. Thanks to our lawyer-driven political system, we've hollowed out the leader in aviation into something resembling a failed African state. Source: commercially-rated pilot with some ATP training

erobbins 7y ago

This strikes me as Boeing lobbyists trying to pay people to create doubt. "Maybe it's not the plane, maybe the pilots are inferior to AMERICAN pilots, yeehaw!"

anon73044 7y ago
Seems pretty contrary to Boeing fighting tooth and nail to make sure the FAA didn't require a lengthy amount of training. "One of the company’s big selling points with customers had been that pilots certified for an earlier generation of 737 jets only needed a short computer course to brush up their skills for the Max. Those assurances helped make the Max Boeing’s best-selling jetliner." >https://time.com/5762666/boeing-max-faa-messages-clowns/ https://time.com/5762666/boeing-max-faa-messages-clowns/ >https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/business/boeing-737-messages.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/business/boeing-737-messa... >https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-employee-called-lion-air-idiots-training-request-2020-1?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-737-max-employee-call...
- kayfox 7y ago
  I think Boeing is getting smacked in the face by a change in pilot skill levels and areas that has been happening around the world since the 90's. Boeing is in a really bad position to specify minimum training requirements, since any time they ask for more training requirements of their customers, the customers ask for more money back. So its good that the FAA wants to enhance training requirements. Based on some of the things that have happened around these two accidents and others recently, I think the increased training should encompass more core skills as well.

rkangel 7y ago

This seems fairly reasonable. One of the criticisms of the Max situation is that the FAA went along with Boeing's plan that only additional minimal training was required. Reviewing those standards seems like a good idea.

kayfox 7y ago
I think it cuts both ways, not only have there been issues with the minimum training specified by the manufacturer, but with the minimum training evaluated by the FAA. This shows in what kind of mistakes are being made these days and really shows in general aviation where seemingly more fundamental mistakes are showing up.
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  > minimum training specified by the manufacturer, It's rare for mfgs. to set training requirements, as that's the FAA's perogative. The only mfg. that I know has a training S-FAR is Robinson Helicopter for R-22 and R-44 models because of mast-bumping: http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ http://rhctraining.com/sfar-73/ Icon has pre-purchase contractual language requiring all kinds of things, including approved training: https://www.iconaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ICON_A5_PurchaseAgreement_rev201703_v20ked.pdf https://www.iconaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/ICON... The Robinson S-FAR was because of previous accidents, while for Icon it was due to the litigious nature of US society and the target audience being recreational owners. Jets usually require a type rating or an FAA Letter of Authorization (LOA.) Same for gross weight over 12,500 pounds. Fun fact 1: FAA examiners and designated pilot examiners usually watch flights from the ground for warbird LOAs and float plane ratings because those are so dangerous. If the applicant can survive a takeoff and landing in a taildragger with a 1,000 - 2,000 HP engine, that's pretty much all that matters. :) Fun fact 2: Most pilot certification exams are done by Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) who are not FAA employees - they are independent contractors. FAA Examiners seldom do pilot rating exams except for CFI ratings, which I believe are free of charge. DPEs can make good money as a weekend job - around $1,000/day for 2 exams. (When I did my commercial single, the DPE asked, "How about another rating today, like an add-on?") Ka-ching! :) There was a weird FAA regulatory wrinkle around 2000 that DPEs were required to hold a current medical, even if the applicant was a rated pilot. (It affected one of the DPEs in Hawaii.) I heard that was changed, but I haven't seen anything in writing, and the FAA generally moves slowly.

DarkmSparks 7y ago

Hopefully this will include the simulators that Boeing outsourced as a profit centre. Trained by the lowest bidder was never going to end well for them.

sitkack 7y ago

"Fighting Firmware at 25k Feet" or how I learned to root cause distributed control systems in free fall. Nothing is mechanical anymore, it is intermediated by an algorithm and servo. Automation, as done in these flight control "smoothing" systems, reduces situational awareness.

willis936 7y ago

Season 24 of the bachelor has some serious political effect.